Black. People. And. The. Bible.

[harry brown]

Black. Preachers. Do. Not. Preach. About. Their.  Bible. God. Supporting. Slavery. .People. Can. Be. Kidnapped. ,Forced. Into. ,Slavery.  ,Beaten. ,Tortured. ,Raped ,,Children.  Murdered. ,,,Innocent. People.  Murdered. ,Girls. Kidnapped. ,Raped. ,Forced. Into. Marriage. ,Genocide. ,Because. Of. Money. ..Gospel. Singers ,Will. Not. Sing. About. This. Because. Of. Money.  ....Willie. Lynch ,Letter. ,With. The. Bible. Christianity.  We. Control. The. Slaves. For,,Centuries. ,Religious. Instruction. For. The. Negro  .....Preachers ,,Worship. Money. ...If. God   Provides. Why. Do. They. Steal. ,Black. ,,Preachers. Have. Been. Arrested. For. Stealing. ,,Raping. Children. ,,Murdering. Their. Wives. .....Black. People. Pay. For. Their. Own. ,,Enslavement. Every. Week. ....Football. Has. Begun. College. And,,Professional. ,Some. More. Slaves. ......

[ProfD]

Religion and entertainment has been used to condition, imprison and anesthetize Black people for centuries.

 

It will take a miracle for people to get off the narcotic that is religion. The programming runs deep.

[Pioneer1]

At this point, I'd take entertainment over religion.

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

At this point, I'd take entertainment over religion.

In Black churches you can get a 2 piece combo...religious entertainment. 

 

The preacher is hooping & hollering; sweating, snotting and spitting.

 

The choir is singing and dancing. The choir director is a jumping around like the drum major of an HBCU marching band.

 

Members of the congregation are crying and/or running around speaking in tongues (shouting).

 

Sunday service or special programs can become a whole production in Black churches...for FREE.

[Troy]

I’m one of those guys who stopped going to church after I got too big for my mother to continue making me go. However, I go to church from time to time. @ProfD while your depiction of the preacher, hooping and hollering is true in some cases it not true universally. I’ve been to mega churches and small country ones.

 

Fundamentally the majority of these churches are about fellowship with others and coming together in a spirit of hope which I think is more beneficial than not for people that need it —despite the religiosity. 
 

I’ve been to churches where the preacher was more like a motivational speaker; the proselytizing was secondary. 

@Pioneer1 i’ve been to TD Jakes church in Dallas and Joel Osteen‘s mega churches (Joel’s service was held in a basketball arena) in Houston the entertainment value in both services was very high. 

[ProfD]

2 hours ago, Troy said:

@ProfD while your depiction of the preacher, hooping and hollering is true in some cases it not true universally. I’ve been to mega churches and small country ones.

Of course.  Some preachers hoop and others are more restrained in their delivery.

 

I thought by now you all have figured out how my comedy works around here.  I have to do a better job apparently.  Maybe more emoticons.

2 hours ago, Troy said:

I’ve been to churches where the preacher was more like a motivational speaker; the proselytizing was secondary. 

 

... Joel Osteen‘s mega churches (Joel’s service was held in a basketball arena) in Houston the entertainment value in both services was very high. 

Yep.  That Joel Osteen with the million dollar smile and tear-jerking stories flying outta his mouf is raking in money hand over fist.

 

Yet, when the city of Houston had flooding, the same Osteen was like, h8ll naw...you homeless folks can't stay in my joint.

[frankster]

On 8/31/2024 at 11:13 AM, harry brown said:

Black. Preachers. Do. Not. Preach. About. Their.  Bible. God. Supporting. Slavery.

I do not think the bible supports slavery .

Yes the bible condones slavery.

 

 

lets see how good my understand/memory is

On 8/31/2024 at 11:13 AM, harry brown said:

People. Can. Be. Kidnapped.

The bible does not condone Kidnappers

 

On 8/31/2024 at 11:13 AM, harry brown said:

Forced. Into. ,Slavery. 

Yes....usually as prisoners of war

 

On 8/31/2024 at 11:13 AM, harry brown said:

Beaten. ,Tortured. ,Raped ,,Children.  Murdered.

Yes....again mostly in cases of war and as a result War Booty

 

On 8/31/2024 at 11:13 AM, harry brown said:

,,,Innocent. People.  Murdered. , Girls Kidnapped. ,

In Times of war or in the fog of war it is hard to say who is innocent....the enemies people are often killed - not murdered.

Virgins are an exception....they are considered "Booty"

 

On 8/31/2024 at 11:13 AM, harry brown said:

,Raped. ,Forced. Into. Marriage.

Yes....usually if a man Rapes a maiden he is force to marry her or she him....

 

On 8/31/2024 at 11:13 AM, harry brown said:

,Genocide. ,Because. Of. Money. ..

It is not always for Money or Wealth but in the end it results in that ....its really about Survival and Growth

 

On 8/31/2024 at 11:13 AM, harry brown said:

Gospel. Singers ,Will. Not. Sing. About. This. Because. Of. Money.

That I do not know about ...but it is certainly possible - I suspect for them its not the venue for such discourses.

Gospel Singers  I believe is using their platform to Uplift the Spirits and free the Soul..

 

On 8/31/2024 at 11:13 AM, harry brown said:

....Willie. Lynch ,Letter. ,With. The. Bible. Christianity. 

The Bible in a sense is a Manual for Mankind...and so its versatility is any other tool - Capable of being used for Good or Evil.

 

On 8/31/2024 at 11:13 AM, harry brown said:

We. Control. The. Slaves. For,,Centuries. ,Religious. Instruction. For. The. Negro 

Yes...

 

On 8/31/2024 at 11:13 AM, harry brown said:

.....Preachers ,,Worship. Money.

Not all I have known some good ones....who often speak out against corruption in and out of the Church.

 

On 8/31/2024 at 11:13 AM, harry brown said:

...If. God   Provides.

Yes ....God does provide

 

On 8/31/2024 at 11:13 AM, harry brown said:

Why. Do. They. Steal. ,Black. ,,Preachers. Have. Been. Arrested. For. Stealing. ,,Raping. Children. ,,Murdering. Their. Wives.

Because they are Human and often experience weaknesses of the Emotional Kind Physical kind Mental Spiritual and  Of the Soul.

While others are just Raving wolves in Sheep Clothing - crooks scammers and such.

 

On 8/31/2024 at 11:13 AM, harry brown said:

.....Black. People. Pay. For. Their. Own. ,,Enslavement. Every. Week. ....Football. Has. Begun. College. And,,Professional. ,Some. More. Slaves. ......

If one understand that Entertainment is Entrainment then you know why.

[Troy]

5 hours ago, frankster said:

I do not think the bible supports slavery .

Yes the bible condones slavery.

Can you elaborate on the distinction between Support and condone?

[frankster]

46 minutes ago, Troy said:

Can you elaborate on the distinction between Support and condone?

Support is when you promote and practice something....condone is when you tolerate and allow.

[Pioneer1]

The Bible BOTH condones and supports slavery.

 

The Old Testament tells the Israelites who among them can be enslaved and how they should be treated.

The New Testament tells slaves to obey their masters.
 

[frankster]

How to do this....with bible verse written by the Enslavers themselves translated to support their unholy enterprise...Let the fun begin.

 

The Book of Exodus's major story is about freeing slaves..Mass movement from captivity and enslavement to Freedom and Liberty.

Exodus 6:6

Nevertheless the bible is replete with the folowing...Freedom, lay your burden down, Break every chain, Defend the weak poor and fatherless

Set the Captives free and Break every Yoke freeing the oppressed clothing the naked and feeding the hungry.

 

On 9/8/2024 at 5:23 PM, Pioneer1 said:

The Bible BOTH condones and supports slavery.

No.... the Bible does not Support slavery.

The verse below is supporting.... death to those who traffick in human beings whether they be buyer or seller.

Here is the Bible's clear stand against - Slavery

 

Exodus 21:16

And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

 

On 9/8/2024 at 5:23 PM, Pioneer1 said:

The Old Testament tells the Israelites who among them can be enslaved and how they should be treated.

quote the verse?...

 

On 9/8/2024 at 5:23 PM, Pioneer1 said:

The New Testament tells slaves to obey their masters.

Yes....

If you are Captive in the US Prison System Or on a Plantation ...

I would be doing you a disservice if I told you not to obey the Corrections Officer or your Captors(Master/overseer).

The Story of Joseph comes to Mind.....I slave who worked the system.

 

1 Corinthians 7:21

New Living Translation
Are you a slave? Don’t let that worry you—but if you get a chance to be free, take it.

 

Deuteronomy 23:15

New King James Version
“You shall not give back to his master the slave who has escaped from his master to you.

[Troy]

To the enslaved, support and condone make no difference.

[Pioneer1]

frankster

 

No.... the Bible does not Support slavery.

Lol...seriously?

 

Leviticus  25

45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigor.

 

 

Joshua 9

22 And Joshua called for them, and he spake unto them, saying, Wherefore have ye beguiled us, saying, We are very far from you; when ye dwell among us?

23 Now therefore ye are cursed, and there shall none of you be freed from being bondmen, and hewers of wood and drawers of water for the house of my God.

 

 

Ephesians 6

5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win ...

 

 

 

.....frankster, stop it.

Don't do this to yourself...lol.

 

[frankster]

20 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

frankster

 

No.... the Bible does not Support slavery.

Lol...seriously?

Seriously....The bible is about liberty -  for the soul of Man

 

20 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Leviticus  25

45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

The Bible writes of three majors ways of becoming a slave..

1. Spoils of War...Captured Enemy soldier or the members of the Community of the Conquered and Defeated.

Consider this as a form Restorative or Reparative Justice for the harm and destruction cause by the war - Indemnification.

 

2. Debt Slavery...Destitute unable to pay off creditors or support oneself and family - Indentureship

Common practice in poor so called third world countries today...in Haiti it is Called Restavek(sojouner)

This is a means of Remedying or Alleviating  Homelessness Hunger and Indigence

Indigence and desparation  is usually a breeding ground for criminality and disease.

The Prerequisite of knowing the family and being born in the Land is to Mitigate against it becoming a business enterprise or a means to force on the weak and powerless.

 

3. Voluntary...explains itself

 

20 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigor.

Every Seven Years and every fifty years all must be release from their bondage enslavement or debt..

The Individual enslaved must freely agree to stay beyond these years

 

20 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Joshua 9

22 And Joshua called for them, and he spake unto them, saying, Wherefore have ye beguiled us, saying, We are very far from you; when ye dwell among us?

23 Now therefore ye are cursed, and there shall none of you be freed from being bondmen, and hewers of wood and drawers of water for the house of my God.

Thats like saying you got 25 to life and you come out on bail in 15 or it gets commuted....or you get 20 life sentences.

Anyway on the Year of Jubilee (every 50 yrs) they must be offered/given their freedom as per scripture/law/statues of Israel.

 

20 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Ephesians 6

5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win ...

I dealt with this already....to advise otherwise is to invite pain suffering and discomfort if not death on the victim.

Best to be genuinely Stockholmed (syndrome) in hopes of achieving some sort of bonding (Lima syndrome) while keeping an eye out for escape.

A strategy Sally Hemings successfully deployed...the Power of the Black (#oochie

 

20 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

.....frankster, stop it.

Don't do this to yourself...lol.

I cant....I just cant ......really tried

 

On 9/10/2024 at 10:58 AM, Troy said:

To the enslaved, support and condone make no difference.

You know that really depends....

The Taino's when face with enslavement by Europeans commit suicide in droves and killed their offspring as a matter of course rather than see them be enslaved.

Not us Africans we fought and  stick through it all and survived the worst treatments imaginable....and is overcoming.

 

Here is the greatest difference I see between support and condone..

When it is supported...they are slave catchers and society is in cahoots with your continued enslavement and oppression.

When it is Condoned...there are no agency of professional slave catchers and society is bound by law and statutes to protected and secure your newly won freedom

 

 

I have often wondered....which is worst.

Dying of Hunger thirst exposure or being a slave?

 

I once read an article about why Rastafari grew so fast in jamaica in the 1930's to 60's...The Brits had so destroyed the economy of Jamaica that people who lived on crown land ran to the city to get themselves imprisoned so as to ensure three meals bed shelter and clothing....Rastafari offered a simple solution capture the land and farm it and face down the british  armed forces.

 

As an aside: - "Coral Garden Incident" is the most famous but the less famous 'the Dungle Tragedy" which was turned into a book written by Orlando Paterson called "Children of Sisyphus" is it in your collection?

 

 

[ProfD]

4 hours ago, frankster said:

I have often wondered....which is worst.

Dying of Hunger thirst exposure or being a slave?

I'm still wondering why people have to suffer at all especially at the hands of one another. 

 

There is no good reason for poverty, hunger or slavery.

 

it is ridiculous that people have to talk about goodness and try to *practice* it.  

 

Humans may not be able to cure diseases but we can definitely end the evil that men do to cause poverty, greed,, jealousy, envy, hate, etc.

[Pioneer1]

frankster

 

 

 

Here is the greatest difference I see between support and condone..

When it is supported...they are slave catchers and society is in cahoots with your continued enslavement and oppression.

 

Leviticus  25 

45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigor.

 

 

-Sounds like the Bible condones & supports slavery, and now...SO DO YOU...lol.

[frankster]

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

frankster

 

 

 

Here is the greatest difference I see between support and condone..

When it is supported...they are slave catchers and society is in cahoots with your continued enslavement and oppression.

 

Leviticus  25 

45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigor.

 

 

-Sounds like the Bible condones & supports slavery, and now...SO DO YOU...lol.

Let me repost it seems you did not see or just to ignore its implications

 

1 Corinthians 7:21

New Living Translation
Are you a slave? Don’t let that worry you—but if you get a chance to be free, take it.

 

Deuteronomy 23:15

New King James Version
“You shall not give back to his master the slave who has escaped from his master to you.

[Pioneer1]

frankster

Ok?

And how do the verses you just quoted abrogate or explain the verses I quoted that clearly SUPPORT and COMMAND the Israelites to not only enslave other people but keep them enslaved "forever" passing them along from generation to generation?

That's like killing some people, allowing others to live, and then pointing to the ones you allowed to live as evidence that you aren't a killer....lol.
What about the ones you killed!!!!


You claim that when people make slaves of others and it becomes part of society....that's considered "supporting" it, right?
Well, as shown above...that's what they were commanded to do.
 

[frankster]

3 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

frankster

Ok?

And how do the verses you just quoted abrogate or explain the verses I quoted that clearly SUPPORT and COMMAND the Israelites to not only enslave other people but keep them enslaved "forever" passing them along from generation to generation?

If you cannot see that then my explanation may not help you.

Here is an example....

You are a defeated enemy combatant or yo are a poor destitute or a voluntary slave..One thing you are not is a victim of kidnapping. 

You are advise to escape and the sorrounding community is oblige to protect you from recapture.

They can only be passed along if the slave  wants to remain a slave for that family....every 6yrs to 7yrs or 50yrs by law and statute all in bondage must be given their freedom

 

 

3 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

That's like killing some people, allowing others to live, and then pointing to the ones you allowed to live as evidence that you aren't a killer....lol.
What about the ones you killed!!!!

No it is not....

You have destroyed my home and you now must compensate me - enemy combatant slave

You are destitute your family in exchange forMoney or room or board or farmland....sell a child into slavery as payment.

 

 

If this is the result of a war then it is a killing..... but it is not murder.

People who do not murder....but has killed are not consider killers

 

3 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

You claim that when people make slaves of others and it becomes part of society....that's considered "supporting" it, right?
Well, as shown above...that's what they were commanded to do.

No...

I said escape slaves are protected by the society from recapture....that condoning

For it to be support....then the society must allow and cooperative with your capture and re-enslavement.

[Pioneer1]

frankster

 

If you cannot see that then my explanation may not help you.

 

Why do I need you to "explain" something to me that I can clearly see and read?
The Bible clearly supports and condones enslaving people and the words are as clear as day.

 

 

Here is an example....

You are a defeated enemy combatant or yo are a poor destitute or a voluntary slave..One thing you are not is a victim of kidnapping. 

 

So what?
You're still being enslaved.
And the Bible supports your being so.

 

 

 

 

You are advise to escape and the sorrounding community is oblige to protect you from recapture.

They can only be passed along if the slave  wants to remain a slave for that family....every 6yrs to 7yrs or 50yrs by law and statute all in bondage must be given their freedom

Nope

 

Leviticus 25:46 
"And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever"

The Bible supports the type of slavery America had, where slaves were passed along from father to son, generation after generation.
According to this passage, those slaves weren't supposed to EVER get out from under bondage.



 

For it to be support....then the society must allow and cooperative with your capture and re-enslavement.
 

Not necessarily.
That's only one TYPE of support.
Another TYPE of support is them allowing you to be enslaved in the first place...lol.
 

[umbrarchist]

I searched the thread for Ethiopian and got no hits.

 

 

Gotta say hhmmmm... about Black American Christians.

[Pioneer1]

1 hour ago, umbrarchist said:

 

Gotta say hhmmmm... about Black American Christians.

Well don't just pick on the Christians...lol.
Historically speaking, the Muslims have supported and condoned slavery as well.

[Chevdove]

On 9/7/2024 at 12:21 PM, frankster said:

I do not think the bible supports slavery .

Yes the bible condones slavery.

 

 

 

Yes. I agree.

 

 

[Chevdove]

5 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Leviticus 25:46 
"And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever"

The Bible supports the type of slavery America had, where slaves were passed along from father to son, generation after generation.
According to this passage, those slaves weren't supposed to EVER get out from under bondage.

 

I guess I am joining this discussion late. But you didn't read the verse after this of which gives more depth:

 

[47] And if a sojourner or stranger wax rich by thee, and thy brother

that dwelleth by him wax poor, and sell himself unto the stranger or

sojourner by thee, or to the stock of the stranger's family:
[48] After that he is sold he may be redeemed again; one of his brethren

may redeem him:

LEVITICUS 25:47, 48.

 

Bond servitude is distinct as opposed to slavery. Inherited slavery and being a bond servant is distinct relatively speaking. To be bought as a bond is not the same as being 'sold into slavery'. Bond service is contractual. 

 

All of this is regarding LAND INHERITANCE. A stranger who were not Hebrew Israelite could not own land inheritance, so they could bond themselves into servitude but never own the land or else, the Hebrews could lose their land inheritance if they allowed a stranger to own land. 

 

That is the same thing that Joseph cautioned the pharaoh of Egypt about when hordes of strange people migrated into Egypt during a great time of famine. Even the Egyptians themselves could not dominate the pharaoh but had to give a portion of their earnings to the government; 1/5th portion went to the state. 

 

But the word 'slavery' no, it was condone but not supported by God.

 

If God supported human sacrifice then there would be no hope. 

 

[14] Thou shalt not oppress an hired servant that is poor and needy,

whether he be of thy brethren, or of thy strangers that are in thy land within thy gates:
[15] At his day thou shalt give him his hire, neither shall the sun go down upon it;

for he is poor, and setteth his heart upon it: lest he cry against thee unto the LORD, and it be sin unto thee. ...

[17] Thou shalt not pervert the judgment of the stranger, nor of the fatherless;

nor take a widow's raiment to pledge:
[18] But thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt,

and the LORD thy God redeemed thee thence: therefore I command thee to do this thing.

[19] When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field,

thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless,

and for the widow: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands.

[20] When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again:

it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.
[21] When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard,

thou shalt not glean it afterward: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.
[22] And thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in the land of Egypt: therefore I command thee to do this thing.

DUETERONOMY 24:14-22.

 

 

[umbrarchist]

4 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Well don't just pick on the Christians...lol.
Historically speaking, the Muslims have supported and condoned slavery as well.

 

The title says the Bible!

More Black Americans regard themselves as Christians.

.

[frankster]

6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

frankster

 

If you cannot see that then my explanation may not help you.

 

Why do I need you to "explain" something to me that I can clearly see and read?

I know you can read but i am not sure ofyour comprehension

Your refusal to acknowledge the two verse and there importance to the very concept of what slavery is....causes my to question either your intellectual honesty or understanding

 

6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

The Bible clearly supports and condones enslaving people and the words are as clear as day.

The truth is the bible neither supports or  condones slavery

 

6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Here is an example....

You are a defeated enemy combatant or yo are a poor destitute or a voluntary slave..One thing you are not is a victim of kidnapping. 

 

So what?
You're still being enslaved.
And the Bible supports your being so.

In Name only...Nothing near to  or in any way like chattel slavery or African enslavement in the Americas 1600-1800.

 

Here is three more verses:

New American Bible Revised Edition

Exodus 21:12

Whoever strikes someone a mortal blow must be put to death

Exodus 21:20-21

When someone strikes his male or female slave with a rod so that the slave dies under his hand, the act shall certainly be avenged. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.

Exodus 21:26-27

When someone strikes his male or female slave in the eye and destroys the use of the eye, he shall let the slave go free in compensation for the eye. If he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let the slave go free in compensation for the tooth

 

6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

You are advise to escape and the sorrounding community is oblige to protect you from recapture.

They can only be passed along if the slave  wants to remain a slave for that family....every 6yrs to 7yrs or 50yrs by law and statute all in bondage must be given their freedom

Nope

I show you the scripture that advises slaves to escape when and if possible ....are you dening that is what the scripture says?

 

6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Leviticus 25:46 
"And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever"

The Bible supports the type of slavery America had, where slaves were passed along from father to son, generation after generation.
According to this passage, those slaves weren't supposed to EVER get out from under bondage.

That is  to the slaves benefit....it is the slaves choice as to whether or not he wants to continue on with that family...

I see @Chevdove did a partial hermeneutics on that verse...

I will add that not being able to live with their former master they have no land to live on they then will have to return from whence they fled and possible face persecution or go into a new land where they may indeed become chattel slaves or worse

Todays vernacular what I explain above is called green card denied/revoke or immigrantion status persona non grata...capisce.

 

6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

For it to be support....then the society must allow and cooperative with your capture and re-enslavement.
 

Not necessarily.
That's only one TYPE of support.
Another TYPE of support is them allowing you to be enslaved in the first place...lol.

No....The enslave chose enslavement

If the slave in question is not a Prisoners of War....Then the slave sold themself into bondage

If the slave is a Prisoner of War then....The slave chose enslavement over execution.

in both cases the individual chose their fate

 

As an aside William Wilberforce had to prove to the british parliment that the bible was against slavery ...as a result the racist made a slave bible with 65% of the bible missing and change much of the present bible...Wilberforce writing and arguments are still not in the public domain

[Pioneer1]

"Are you for REAL...for real????"

I mean.....
You're seriously going to "re-explain" what I just showed you about the Bible's total justification of enslaving people?


 

What I want to know right now is where is @Troy in all of this???

When it comes to discussions on the existence of race, you're steadily dipping in and out taking shots at my position.
Throw a punch here.....dip out.
Sneak in again....take a few jabs....look around.....dip out.
Pop up.....throw a liquor bottle into mix....then run around the corner.

But now that you have a man sitting up here JUSTIFYING SLAVERY and claiming the Bible doesn't say what it CLEARLY says....your silence on the subject is conspicuous.

 

[frankster]

Why Would you think I am Justifying Slavery?

[Pioneer1]

10 hours ago, frankster said:

Why Would you think I am Justifying Slavery?

Because my Mama's baby can READ....lol.

[frankster]

6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Because my Mama's baby can READ....lol.

That's great...

It is also necessary that you understand what you read...

[Pioneer1]

frankster

 

 

And what part of...
"ye shall BUY them and OWN them and they shall be your SLAVES and your children's slaves FOR EVER"
... is difficult to understand?

 

You tell us....
What's the CORRECT understanding of this scripture?

 

[frankster]

10 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

frankster

 

 

And what part of...
"ye shall BUY them and OWN them and they shall be your SLAVES and your children's slaves FOR EVER"
... is difficult to understand?

Sounds Awful....and it would be - if it was European Style of Slavery.

Which it is not....no slave catchers no slaves traders no slaves market and no victims of kidnap forced into slavery....except for cases involving the spoils of war nearly all enslavement is voluntary meaning the enslave wanted and agreed to it without physical coercion.

Every 7 or 50 yrs Manumission Enfranchisement - Set free 

If the master harms the enslaved....the master will be punished and the enslave compensated and or freed

If the master kills the enslaved.....the enslaved will be avenged or the master punished - very likely the master will be killed in return(eye for an eye)

 

10 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

You tell us....
What's the CORRECT understanding of this scripture?

Like unto Servitude..

as in Work Visa Applicant.

To be more exact it's akin to a Green Card holder in the USA today...Permanent Resident Worker Status.

Those who do not want to be passed down forever....Farm Worker Status H-2A or Non-Agricultural/Special Skills H-2B.

 

 

[Pioneer1]

frankster

 

 

Which it is not....no slave catchers no slaves traders no slaves market and no victims of kidnap forced into slavery.

 

 

Leviticus  25
46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you

 

 

 

 

 

...except for cases involving the spoils of war nearly all enslavement is voluntary meaning the enslave wanted and agreed to it without physical coercion.

Joshua 9

22 And Joshua called for them, and he spake unto them, saying, Wherefore have ye beguiled us, saying, We are very far from you; when ye dwell among us?

23 Now therefore ye are cursed, and there shall none of you be freed from being bondmen

 

 

 

 

Every 7 or 50 yrs Manumission Enfranchisement - Set free 

Leviticus  25
46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever

 

 

 

 

Those who do not want to be passed down forever -HAVE NO CHOICE AND WILL BE ANYWAY  BECAUSE

Leviticus  25
46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever

 

 

 

Even the very scriptures you BELIEVE IN, are bearing witness against you....lol.

 

 

[frankster]

6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

frankster

 

 

Which it is not....no slave catchers no slaves traders no slaves market and no victims of kidnap forced into slavery.

 

 

Leviticus  25
46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you

If that is true then the bible condones kidnapping......Which it does not

 

6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

..except for cases involving the spoils of war nearly all enslavement is voluntary meaning the enslave wanted and agreed to it without physical coercion.

Joshua 9

22 And Joshua called for them, and he spake unto them, saying, Wherefore have ye beguiled us, saying, We are very far from you; when ye dwell among us?

23 Now therefore ye are cursed, and there shall none of you be freed from being bondmen

 

When they came  they announce themselves as Joshua'Servants In verse 8 of that same chapter"⁸ “We are your servants,” they said to Joshua." 

 it seems Joshua do not know his servants.

 

6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Every 7 or 50 yrs Manumission Enfranchisement - Set free 

Leviticus  25
46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever

Leviticus 25:10

Contemporary English Version
This fiftieth year is sacred--it is a time of freedom and of celebration when everyone will receive back their original property, and slaves will return home to their families.

 

6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Those who do not want to be passed down forever -HAVE NO CHOICE AND WILL BE ANYWAY  BECAUSE

Deuteronomy 15:16 & 18

16 But if your servant says to you, “I do not want to leave you,” because he loves you and your family and is well off with you,

18 Do not consider it a hardship to set your servant free, because their service to you these six years has been worth twice as much as that of a hired hand. And the LORD your God will bless you in everything you do.

 

6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Leviticus  25
46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever

We have a fundamental difference of understanding of the what the verse means and implies given the corresponding verses I provide as to the situation it addresses.

I understand to you The Words plainly mean what they say....fine

Do we agree that the slavery describe is much different from European style Enslavement of African???

 

6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Even the very scriptures you BELIEVE IN, are bearing witness against you....lol.

 I stand by my statements....The bible does not support chattel slavery.

 

[Pioneer1]

frankster

 

We have a fundamental difference of understanding of the what the verse means and implies given the corresponding verses I provide as to the situation it addresses.

I understand to you The Words plainly mean what they say....fine

 

Yes, I do.

I didn't realize you had to have some sort of special "decoder" ring or read the scripture with a special pair of glasses that decodes and uncovers the "real" words that apparently are printed in invisible ink and hidden behind the plain text.

 

The plain text says you will be taken, enslaved, and passed along from one generation to the next forever.

But when you put on THESE GLASSES

 

"Here nigger....
Put these on and read those verses again."

 

Ok, NOW it says that you can only SIGN UP to be a slave, choose which master you want to serve, light a candle...and when the flame dies out....you're free to toss a bag over your shoulder and walk the hell off the property whenever you get ready.

 

Do we agree that the slavery describe is much different from European style Enslavement of African???
 

Yes.
Because even under the American system of slavery as cruel as it was, you weren't condemned be slave "forever".

Damn.

 

 

[frankster]

 

 

4 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

frankster

 

We have a fundamental difference of understanding of the what the verse means and implies given the corresponding verses I provide as to the situation it addresses.

I understand to you The Words plainly mean what they say....fine

 

Yes, I do.

I didn't realize you had to have some sort of special "decoder" ring or read the scripture with a special pair of glasses that decodes and uncovers the "real" words that apparently are printed in invisible ink and hidden behind the plain text.

The bible states that All must be free at the Jubilee

Leviticus 25:10

Contemporary English Version
This fiftieth year is sacred--it is a time of freedom and of celebration when everyone will receive back their original property, and slaves will return home to their families.

 

4 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

The plain text says you will be taken, enslaved, and passed along from one generation to the next forever.

But when you put on THESE GLASSES

 

"Here nigger....
Put these on and read those verses again."

Thanks for those spectacles....here is what it has revealed

Leviticus 25:46

Young's Literal Translation
and ye have taken them for inheritance to your sons after you, to occupy for a possession; to the age ye lay service upon them,

 

4 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Ok, NOW it says that you can only SIGN UP to be a slave, choose which master you want to serve, light a candle...and when the flame dies out....you're free to toss a bag over your shoulder and walk the hell off the property whenever you get ready.

Or if you change your mind just escape to the neighbor.

 

4 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Do we agree that the slavery describe is much different from European style Enslavement of African???
 

Yes.
Because even under the American system of slavery as cruel as it was, you weren't condemned be slave "forever".

Damn.

As shown above not all translation of that verse uses the word "forever".

Now show where the vast majority slaves in the American Slavery System was not meant to remain slaves forever?

[Pioneer1]

frankster

 

As shown above not all translation of that verse uses the word "forever".

 

Sounds to me like the translators are playing games with "the word".

If you can say this about THESE verses, who's to say that OTHER verses may not also be mistranslated or some words left out or added to?

 

This is why I don't call it "holy" or put my faith in it.
Too much room for manipulation and error.

 

 

Now show where the vast majority slaves in the American Slavery System was not meant to remain slaves forever?

 

I present to you exhibit A: US.

WE are the descendants of the victims of it and WE'RE no longer in Chattel Slavery.

[frankster]

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

frankster

 

As shown above not all translation of that verse uses the word "forever".

 

Sounds to me like the translators are playing games with "the word".

No...not really.

The thing with words is that they tend to have more than one meaning and different meanings in different times.

 

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

If you can say this about THESE verses, who's to say that OTHER verses may not also be mistranslated or some words left out or added to?

Here is where context and culture comes into play...of the original scribes of the Time and the many translators through out time from then to today.

 

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

This is why I don't call it "holy" or put my faith in it.

How do you define "Holy"?

You can put your faith in scripture....whilst always remembering that scripture comes to us through the agency of Man - with all his foibles biases and agendas.

 

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

Too much room for manipulation and error.

True...

Though that be the case the truth can still be gleamed from scripture.

 

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

Now show where the vast majority slaves in the American Slavery System was not meant to remain slaves forever?

 

I present to you exhibit A: US.

WE are the descendants of the victims of it and WE'RE no longer in Chattel Slavery.

Yes they were Condemned to a life of permanent enslavement.

"Other colonies passed similar slave codes. All slave codes made slavery a permanent condition, inherited through the mother, and defined slaves as property. Since the status of the offspring followed that of the mother, the child of a free father and a slave mother was a slave. Slaves, being property, could not own property or be a party to a contract. Given that marriage is a form of a contract, no slave marriage had any legal standing. In all of the slave codes the color line was firmly drawn, and any amount of Negro blood established the race of a person, whether enslaved or “free”, as Negro."

https://www.nps.gov/ethnography/aah/aaheritage/histContextsE.htm

 

 

A war was fought to free the enslaved - freeing the slave was not part of USA Slave System...

Many may say chattel slavery is still here and it is still legal and constitutional.

Furthermore the War against slavery still continues...so long as ideas 0f Racism/White Supremacy exist and is given value in the corridors of power.

 

[Pioneer1]

Permanent isn't the same as "forever".

When a woman gets a perm (permanent)....her hair doesn't stay in that condition.
She has to go back to the salon and get it re-done from time to time or as new hair grows back.


A question I would have for you is.....
Why would a "chosen" people or "holy" people be enslaving people at all.....especially with the intention of keeping them in that condition forever and passing them down generation after generation?

You say, it's more humane and compassionate than killing them?
Not sure about that.
The United States either kills an enemy combatant or makes them a POW and eventually releases them.

However not enslaving them in the first place and doing the work yourself or hiring somebody to do the work for you seems even MORE humane than enslaving somebody.

[umbrarchist]

This came up in Project Gutenberg recently:

Slavery as an Industrial System (1910) by H. J. Nieboer
https://gutenberg.org/ebooks/74463

.

[frankster]

22 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Permanent isn't the same as "forever".

True

"Black people in America were being enslaved for life, while the protections of whiteness were formalized."

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/19/magazine/history-slavery-smithsonian.html

 

 

22 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

When a woman gets a perm (permanent)....her hair doesn't stay in that condition.
She has to go back to the salon and get it re-done from time to time or as new hair grows back.

Words and their meaning change....in this case it is the name of a hair style.

Names do not reflect definition.....cars called Toyota Corrola are not  fertile rice patty or parts of plants petals and sex organs

 

22 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

A question I would have for you is.....
Why would a "chosen" people or "holy" people be enslaving people at all.....especially with the intention of keeping them in that condition forever and passing them down generation after generation?

 

They were not enslaving anybody....in the sense of how we understand slavery - in particular European enslavement of Africans

They were providing an opportunity....

Provisions in law are made for them to be released every 7 or 50 yrs

Just as how people from all over the world seeks to be permanent residents and desire work visa in the USA.

Generation after generation just means that after you die they can remain in country and work for some one else or a member of your family.

 

22 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

You say, it's more humane and compassionate than killing them?

The choice is theirs

 

22 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Not sure about that.
The United States either kills an enemy combatant or makes them a POW and eventually releases them.

Same thing....

Some POWs and Prisoners are for life in the USA

All slaves are release every 50 yrs(jubilee)

 

22 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

However not enslaving them in the first place and doing the work yourself or hiring somebody to do the work for you seems even MORE humane than enslaving somebody.

They often ask for what you called enslavement....

 

[Pioneer1]

 

 

frankster

Something isn't adding up......

You're saying the people the Israelites enslaved got released every 50 years, but I showed you where they intended for their slaves to remain in their custody forever.

50 years does not = forever.

So it seems like there is a contradiction in those scriptures OR....they are talking about the conditions of enslavement for TWO DIFFERENT kinds of people.

Maybe the Jubilee and other conditions apply to the ISRAELITES who were enslaved by eachother, but didn't apply to the other races whom they enslaved.

[frankster]

On 9/28/2024 at 8:25 AM, Pioneer1 said:

 

 

frankster

Something isn't adding up......

The reason its not adding up is because your definition of Enslavement is tied to European Enslavement of Africans.

 

On 9/28/2024 at 8:25 AM, Pioneer1 said:

You're saying the people the Israelites enslaved got released every 50 years, but I showed you where they intended for their slaves to remain in their custody forever.

Yes that is the Law Statutes or Ordinances of Israel...everybody gets paroled

And I quoted you the same verse that said differently...."to the age ye lay service upon them,"

 

On 9/28/2024 at 8:25 AM, Pioneer1 said:

50 years does not = forever.

Yes....50yrs is not forever for us  - but it is a long time or duration..

Consider Life sentences in the USA....it is in most cases at a minimum it means 25 yrs before you are eligible for parole

Who can serve 3 life senetences???....what it actually means in most cases is that you wont be eligible for parole until 75yrs

 

 

On 9/28/2024 at 8:25 AM, Pioneer1 said:

So it seems like there is a contradiction in those scriptures OR....they are talking about the conditions of enslavement for TWO DIFFERENT kinds of people.

Yes....the 7 yrs is for Israelites and the 50yrs is for both Israelites and  non-israelites - it is often shorter than 50 yrs.

but I would contend that the 7yrs is also for non-israelites as well if they choose to avail themselves of it

In any case....just escape or run away and the whole society is compelled by law to aid and abet you

 

On 9/28/2024 at 8:25 AM, Pioneer1 said:

Maybe the Jubilee and other conditions apply to the ISRAELITES who were enslaved by eachother, but didn't apply to the other races whom they enslaved.

They Jubilee applies to any and everyone who lives in the Lands of Israel or fall under their Government.

[Pioneer1]

frankster

 

The reason its not adding up is because your definition of Enslavement is tied to European Enslavement of Africans.

 

There is only one universal definition of enslavement and it cuts across cultures from Africa to Europe...and that's FORCING people to work.

If you "own" people and are forcing them to work, you have enslaved them; plain and simple.

If they have a choice and can opt out....they aren't slaves, but mere servants.
But the Bible makes a CLEAR difference between slaves and servants and as I said not only condones but SUPPORTS the enslavement of certain peoples.

 

As far as the other points you're TRYING to make; it seems as if you're trying to take me around in circles.

I've already showed you with crystal clarity the verses in the Bible that legitimized slavery, supported it, and made it clear that in some cases...the people and their progeny were intended to be enslaved forever.
All the other verses you provide talking about 50 years THIS and 7 years THAT are irrelevant -UNLESS you want to admit that there is a contradiction in your book.
 

[frankster]

11 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

frankster

 

The reason its not adding up is because your definition of Enslavement is tied to European Enslavement of Africans.

 

There is only one universal definition of enslavement and it cuts across cultures from Africa to Europe

No not true....except for prisoners of war

No slave under hebrew /Israel law can be a victimof  kidnapping....if so both the buyer nd the seller may be put to death

 

11 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

 

...and that's FORCING people to work.

If you "own" people and are forcing them to work, you have enslaved them; plain and simple.

If after one signs/agrees to terms of enslavement then refuse to work...then it is the Right of him or her who purchased your service to enforce compliance

 

11 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

If they have a choice and can opt out....they aren't slaves, but mere servants.

They do have the choice to run away and all memebers of society are bound by law to protect their new freedom.

If the persons who purchases your services is responsible for you losing a tooth they must set you free...

If the enslave loses his or her life and the enslaver is at fault then......the enslaver will be punished - mostly likely put to death

None of the above is true of European enslavement of Africans

 

11 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

But the Bible makes a CLEAR difference between slaves and servants

yes

 

11 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

and as I said not only condones but SUPPORTS the enslavement of certain peoples.

Yes it condones but does not support

 

11 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

As far as the other points you're TRYING to make; it seems as if you're trying to take me around in circles.

Not circles....trying to extricate you from your confusion of equating European barbaric enslavement of African as common to all forms of enslavement

 

11 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

I've already showed you with crystal clarity the verses in the Bible that legitimized slavery, supported it, and made it clear that in some cases...the people and their progeny were intended to be enslaved forever.

And I have shown you the same verse in another translation that shows that is not the only interpretation

As well as why the translation I provided is closer to the truth...of what was meant

 

11 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

All the other verses you provide talking about 50 years THIS and 7 years THAT are irrelevant -UNLESS you want to admit that there is a contradiction in your book.

There is no contradiction on this point....it is plain as the day is long.

[Pioneer1]

Man....you don't "sign up" or "agree" to be a slave.
That's not how slavery works in ANY society.

It's like someone saying they're "happy" to be miserable.
If they ass is walking around grinning and happy in their condition....they clearly aren't in a state of misery.

If you agree to it or volunteer to do it....it isn't slavery; it's servitude.

Slavery is strictly by FORCE/ COERCION.

 

 

[frankster]

On 10/6/2024 at 8:24 AM, Pioneer1 said:

Man....you don't "sign up" or "agree" to be a slave.
That's not how slavery works in ANY society.

Jamaicans leaving Paradise to enter into  Voluntary Enslavement

Here is a modern day example of people signing up/volunteer to be enslaved for pitiful amount of renumeration....many having less Rights now than the ancient Hebrew Slaves of yesteryears.

That how it work in that ancient society and it is still being done today under different auspices and wording

 

On 10/6/2024 at 8:24 AM, Pioneer1 said:

Migrant workers compare working conditions to systemic slavery | Your Morning

 

On 10/6/2024 at 8:24 AM, Pioneer1 said:

It's like someone saying they're "happy" to be miserable.

They need a place to live and food to eat and money to buy clothing....so yes  - the sign up for it because it is better than what they currently have.

And the promise of future employment - is why they are asking for Permanet Residency Status (socalled slaves forever)

 

On 10/6/2024 at 8:24 AM, Pioneer1 said:

If they ass is walking around grinning and happy in their condition....they clearly aren't in a state of misery.

Even individuals in death camps find time and occasions to laugh and be happy....if only momentarily.

 

On 10/6/2024 at 8:24 AM, Pioneer1 said:

If you agree to it or volunteer to do it....it isn't slavery; it's servitude.

Servitude is  OK by me...but the translator choose to use the word slave - any idea why???

So it comes to how the translator of scripture choose to interprete Hebrew words and what is and was meant be the word slavery at the time of translation and when it was used in Hebrew.

The First english translation of the bible was around the 1500.....African slavery by European started around the Mid 1400 

 

On 10/6/2024 at 8:24 AM, Pioneer1 said:

Slavery is strictly by FORCE/ COERCION.

I agree...

Hence for that reason the Hebrew people had laws against kidnapping, selling and buying of Human beings....the punishment was death

Exodus 21:16

New Living Translation
“Kidnappers must be put to death, whether they are caught in possession of their victims or have already sold them as slaves.

English Standard Version
“Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.

[Pioneer1]

On 10/8/2024 at 8:59 AM, frankster said:

Jamaicans leaving Paradise to enter into  Voluntary Enslavement

 

There is NO SUCH THING as "voluntary enslavement".....it's an oxymoron.

All of those analogies and scriptures you're posting are irrelevant, mah man.
Your beloved Bible both condones and supports slavery.
I've shown it with crystal clarity and anyone with good sense and with good faith will admit to that.
The "debate" ended weeks ago.

 

[frankster]

17 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

There is NO SUCH THING as "voluntary enslavement".....it's an oxymoron.

Be that as it may....

Voluntary Slavery was practise all over the globe through out time....Selling yourself to pay off debt or to earn income abode and or land wife or cattle in exchange is common.

 

17 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

All of those analogies and scriptures you're posting are irrelevant, mah man.

It cannot be....they are all in the bible and you are using the bible  to support your opinion....so the bible is most relevant.

 

17 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Your beloved Bible both condones and supports slavery.

It condones Enslavement...

It does not condone  or support .....European style enslavement of Africans as it was exercise in the West.

17 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

I've shown it with crystal clarity and anyone with good sense and with good faith will admit to that.

If taken by itself and out of context with the rest of the bible.

 

17 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

The "debate" ended weeks ago.

We all have our choices....and if you choose wilfull ignorance - thats your choice.