What would you say is the fundamental basis of reality

[Delano]

I am interested in hearing other opinions before I post mine

[umbrarchist]

I would use the word PHYSICS but that covers a lot by itself.

Edited July 27 by umbrarchist
Grammatical error

[Pioneer1]

 

Delano

WHICH Reality?

[umbrarchist]

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Delano

WHICH Reality?

ROFLMBAO

[Pioneer1]

Umbrarchist

 

Lol....

Are you sure?

 

What about your dream life?

[Delano]

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Delano

WHICH Reality?

It's an open question. 

[umbrarchist]

4 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Umbrarchist

 

Lol....

Are you sure?

 

What about your dream life?

 

What about the simulations in my mind where an airliner cannot destroy the North Tower? How real is that? But I don't have accurate data on the distribution of steel down the Tower.

 

Physical modeling is interesting though.

 

WTC Modeling Instruction & Testing

 

.

[Pioneer1]

11 minutes ago, umbrarchist said:

 

What about the simulations in my mind where an airliner cannot destroy the North Tower? How real is that? But I don't have accurate data on the distribution of steel down the Tower.

 

 

I'm not sure about your actual mind itself but BEYOND your mind where other Realities exist, this is true.
There are Realities where the North Tower cannot be destroyed and is still standing right now.
Your mind can TAKE you there.

[umbrarchist]

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

I'm not sure about your actual mind itself but BEYOND your mind where other Realities exist, this is true.
There are Realities where the North Tower cannot be destroyed and is still standing right now.
Your mind can TAKE you there.

I am not going to dispute with you about YOUR REALITIES.

 

To me, people who can Believe that a 200 ton airliner including the 34 tons of jet fuel (mostly kerosene) can totally destroy a 500,000 ton building without even thinking about the distribution of steel do not comprehend enough about Physical Reality to go into details about much stuff with.

.

[Troy]

I don’t know.

I don’t think it’s even knowable, by our puny brains.

 

it’s like seeing only an object’s shadow and thinking you understand the object casting the shadow.

 

 

[Pioneer1]

umbrarchist

I am not going to dispute with you about YOUR REALITIES.
 

I don't consider them just "my" Realities, so much as they are Realities period that others can access.


 

 

To me, people who can Believe that a 200 ton airliner including the 34 tons of jet fuel (mostly kerosene) can totally destroy a 500,000 ton building without even thinking about the distribution of steel do not comprehend enough about Physical Reality to go into details about much stuff with.
 

The scientific/physics laws of THIS Reality may not necessarily apply to OTHER Realities.

Which is why some people can fly in their dreams or build entire buildings by simply moving their fingers; but when they wake up and return back to THIS Reality, it may take 15 years and 1000 men just to build the same structure.

[Delano]

4 hours ago, Troy said:

don’t know.

I don’t think it’s even knowable, by our puny brains.

Its a mental exercise.. What is the limit to the imagination?

 

Seeing a shadow is more informative than living in darkness.

[ProfD]

IMO, the fundamental basis of reality is physical existence that can be observed through senses.

 

Any other parallel or alternative reality is a temporary form of escapism.

 

[Troy]

19 hours ago, Delano said:

Seeing a shadow is more informative than living in darkness.

yes, that is true. I’m not sure how much more information that would be. You would still largely be in darkness, trying to understand the nature of the object casting the shadow which itself might be “shadow” of a four dimensional object.

 

19 hours ago, Delano said:

What is the limit to the imagination?

The capacity of the brain, which is finite.

 

 

[Delano]

The outer form is a shadow of underlying energy of an object.

[Delano]

On 7/29/2025 at 2:16 PM, Troy said:

capacity of the brain, which is finite

I would say the mind and the brain are not the same.

[ProfD]

4 hours ago, Delano said:

I would say the mind and the brain are not the same.

The brain as a physical organ is the computer running the human body.

 

The mind is like a piece of software running on the computer (brain). It collects data from thoughts, feelings and emotions, etc., and processes (codes) it accordingly. 

 

The way human minds work is what makes us different beyond physical appearance. 

[Troy]

Agreed.

[Pioneer1]

Some even liken the human brain to an ANTENNA....
Not only receiving information but TRANSMITTING it!

[ProfD]

4 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Some even liken the human brain to an ANTENNA....
Not only receiving information but TRANSMITTING it!

I hope not. 8 billion antennas would be a lot of receiving and transmitting and not necessarily constructive and/or productive.

[Pioneer1]

4 hours ago, ProfD said:

I hope not. 8 billion antennas would be a lot of receiving and transmitting and not necessarily constructive and/or productive.

To the contrary!
Perhaps a lot of the inventions, music, and what people call "creativity" is as a direct result of the receiving and transmitting of thoughts.

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

To the contrary!
Perhaps a lot of the inventions, music, and what people call "creativity" is as a direct result of the receiving and transmitting of thoughts.

Black folks would be a lot better off if these antennas worked worth a d8mn.

[Delano]

This is what I consider the basis of reality in ascending order from bedrock to emergent: Information, then Mathematics, Quantum, Consciousness, then Materialism.

 

[Troy]

You’re gonna have to do a little bit of elaboration for my benefit Del. 
 

what do you mean by quantum and information?

[Pioneer1]

4 hours ago, ProfD said:

Black folks would be a lot better off if these antennas worked worth a d8mn.

Maybe Black folks would get better transmission AND reception if they stopped engaging in activities that facilitated signal interference and blockage, like excessive drugs and alcohol consumption...lol.


 

[Troy]

Some feel that drugs like Ayahuasca, Psilocybin and even weed can help people have spiritual or transcendent experiences.

[Delano]

20 hours ago, Troy said:

You’re gonna have to do a little bit of elaboration for my benefit Del. 
 

what do you mean by quantum and information?

Quantum Reality or quantum Mechanics. DNA is information 

 

[Troy]

Interestingly @Delano I just watched a movie called The Life of Chuck. It is an unusual film in which math is described in one scene and helped me understand your rankings.  It was a good movie overall and I enjoyed it.

 

Going back to your original question from the perspective of our perceived everyday reality matter is fundamental.  Going beyond what we can perceive with our senses even when hyped up on Ayahuasca, who knows... even if we say information is the foundation where does it come from?  You can infinitely regress asking these questions.

 

Information may just be the foundation we are capable of conceiving.

[Delano]

If a Quantum formula describes matter that is the rule that information is following but it may not be the same as the information. For example a regression model describes how variables move in tandem but the movement doesn't tell you about the properties of the object.

[Delano]

On 8/5/2025 at 1:25 AM, Troy said:

Some feel that drugs like Ayahuasca, Psilocybin and even weed can help people have spiritual or transcendent experiences.

A few friends have said that to me. My response is yeah but you can end up over your head. So I'd rather not and just develop naturally

[frankster]

I did not read all the posts nor watch any of the videos....

 

Consciousness is the only basis of reality....i Know.

[Delano]

 

[Delano]

This is the interaction I had with ChatGPT on this subject.

 

I would like you to explore a reality with the following bases starting with Information, then Mathematics, Quantum, Consciousness, then Materialism. Fully describe the base then show it could link to the next base. Finally give an overview or conclusion. Also state your assumptions and possible paradoxes

BASE 1: Information as the Fundamental Reality

What It Is

• Information is the difference that makes a difference (Gregory Bateson).

• It’s not physical by itself, but describes how physical or abstract systems relate.

• John Wheeler’s “It from Bit” idea suggests that particles, fields, space, and time arise from binary distinctions — yes/no choices, like bits in a computer.

Reality as Information

• The universe can be modeled as a giant processing system.

• Physical laws are emergent patterns in the manipulation and flow of information.

• Entropy and thermodynamics suggest the universe evolves through information-processing constraints.

Link to Mathematics

• Information needs structure to be meaningful — structure emerges from mathematical relations.

• Bits alone are meaningless without rules or patterns — which are mathematical in nature.

• Thus:
  Information ➝ Mathematics
  Information gives rise to structure → math encodes and formalizes those structures.

---

BASE 2: Mathematics as the Ground of Being

What It Is

• Mathematics is an abstract, timeless realm of relations, forms, and logic.

• Max Tegmark's Mathematical Universe Hypothesis (MUH) posits that the universe is a mathematical structure.

Reality as Mathematics

• Everything in physics can be written in mathematical terms.

• Mathematical patterns underlie chaos, quantum fields, gravity, and the behavior of particles.

• If mathematics exists independently of minds or observers, it could be the foundation of all possible realities.

Link to Quantum Reality

• Mathematics provides the formalism for quantum theory: Hilbert spaces, operators, probability amplitudes.

• But quantum theory introduces behavior — probabilities, observation, superposition — not just static math.

• Thus:
  Mathematics ➝ Quantum Reality
  Static structures (math) ➝ dynamic behavior (quantum evolution and measurement).

---

BASE 3: Quantum Reality

What It Is

• Quantum mechanics describes how particles and fields behave at the smallest scales.

• Core principles: superposition, entanglement, uncertainty, and the role of observation.

• It is probabilistic, not deterministic.

Reality as Quantum

• Everything physical reduces to quantum interactions.

• Quantum fields create particles and forces.

• Reality is a probabilistic web of potential outcomes collapsing into concrete states when observed.

Link to Consciousness

• The Measurement Problem: What causes the wave function to collapse?

  • Conscious observation seems to play a role (though debated).

• Wigner, von Neumann, and others proposed consciousness as a necessary component of quantum measurement.

• Thus:
  Quantum ➝ Consciousness
  Quantum uncertainty resolves into concrete reality through conscious observation.

---

BASE 4: Consciousness

What It Is

• Consciousness is the capacity for subjective experience — “what it’s like” to be something.

• Some theories suggest it is fundamental (panpsychism, idealism), not emergent.

Reality as Consciousness

• If the world only "exists" in the form of experiences, then experience itself might be primary.

• Quantum events collapse into reality only when observed — and observation requires a conscious entity.

Link to Materialism

• From this view, the material world is a projection or result of consciousness organizing experience.

• Yet, consciousness seems bound to the brain — a physical system.

• Thus:
  Consciousness ➝ Materialism
  Consciousness gives rise to a world that appears physical — as a shared, stable dream-like structure.

---

BASE 5: Materialism

What It Is

• The view that reality consists of physical matter and energy.

• Everything — mind, life, universe — emerges from the interactions of material elements governed by laws.

Reality as Material

• The brain generates consciousness.

• Measurement is physical; quantum states collapse because of interactions with the environment.

• Information, math, and consciousness are emergent phenomena from physical systems.

---

Circular Structure & Paradox

Now we reach a paradox:

• If materialism is the base, then consciousness is an emergent illusion.

• But if consciousness is required for measurement, the physical world needs it to exist.

• If quantum physics needs consciousness, and consciousness needs the brain, and the brain is made of quantum systems — we get a loop.

This circular dependence hints at something deeper: maybe no single base is absolute.

---

Assumptions Made

• Reality is coherent and describable.

• Consciousness is not reducible to matter in a straightforward way.

• Information is a real and foundational concept (not merely linguistic).

• Mathematics has existence beyond human minds.

---

Possible Paradoxes

1. Measurement Problem: Does reality exist without observation?

2. Hard Problem of Consciousness: How does subjective experience arise from physical processes?

3. Math Realism Paradox: Does math exist without minds? If so, where?

4. Simulation Paradox: If information is primary, who or what computes the simulation?

5. Circular Causality: Consciousness needs matter, which needs quantum, which needs information, which may require consciousness again.

---

Conclusion: A Layered or Holographic Reality

Rather than a single “most fundamental” base, a more coherent picture may be:

Reality is a recursive, entangled structure where each layer gives rise to the next, yet also depends on the deeper ones for its expression.

• Information gives form →

• Mathematics gives structure →

• Quantum fields give dynamics →

• Consciousness gives observation →

• Materialism gives embodiment →

• Which allows consciousness again, completing the loop.

This could imply a holographic or non-linear base — reality as a mutually reinforcing network of fundamental principles rather than a linear hierarchy.

[aka Contrarian]

Interesting.

I've always reduced the reality question to the simplest terms when pondering it.

The phenomemon that occurs when the sun is at my back and I cast a shadow satisfies my wondering. And, just for reassurance, I pinch myself. When my "theory" is challenged, I simply shrug and explain that: "I know that I know nothing."

 

That Quatum Physics is a bitch. All the figures and activity that I "see" in my peripheral vision  out of the corner of my eye, disappear when I turn my head to observe  them directly! 

And I don't think I'm hallucinating! 

 

Is anyone familiar with the "Mandela Effect"  involving movies? I may post about it later on a new thread.

 

[Delano]

2 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

All the figures and activity that I "see" in my peripheral vision  out of the corner of my eye, disappear when I turn my head to observe  them directly! 

And I don't think I'm hallucinating! 

That's been happening to me as well. I don't see the figures I feel them

 

 

Continuation of ChatGPT

 

Out of the bases which is not emergent

 

Excellent question — it cuts to the heart of what we mean by a "base" of reality. To answer it, we must ask:

Which of these foundations could plausibly be non-emergent — meaning, it doesn’t arise from something else, but is itself fundamental?

Let's assess each base in terms of emergence vs. fundamentality:

---

1. Information

Is it Emergent?

• Possibly not. Some theories treat information as ontologically fundamental.

• In digital physics or "It from Bit", information is the substrate from which everything (matter, space, time) arises.

• In thermodynamics and black hole physics, entropy/information is the most conserved and universal quantity.

Not clearly emergent — could be a true base.

---

2. Mathematics

Is it Emergent?

• If you’re a mathematical Platonist, math exists eternally, independently of minds or physical instantiation.

• If you're a formal constructivist, math is a human-made language — then it's emergent from cognition.

Depends on stance:

• Platonist: Not emergent.

• Constructivist: Emergent from minds.

---

3. Quantum Reality

Is it Emergent?

• The formalism (quantum fields, wave functions) is fundamental within physics, but…

• Some physicists believe quantum mechanics is emergent from deeper principles like:

  • Information theory

  • Causal sets

  • Quantum gravity models

Likely emergent, from information or deeper mathematical/informational structures.

---

4. Consciousness

Is it Emergent?

• In materialism, consciousness emerges from brain complexity.

• In panpsychism or idealism, consciousness is not emergent — it's a primitive, irreducible component of reality.

• Integrated Information Theory (IIT) treats consciousness as fundamental to any system with integrated information.

Depends on theory:

• Materialism: Emergent.

• Idealism / Panpsychism: Not emergent.

---

5. Materialism (Physical Matter & Energy)

Is it Emergent?

• In quantum field theory, matter emerges from quantum fields.

• In quantum gravity or holographic theories, spacetime and matter are emergent from information and entanglement.

• Even time itself might be emergent.

Widely considered emergent in modern theoretical physics.

---

Summary: Which Bases Are Not Emergent?

Base	Emergent?	Notes
Information	Likely not	Often treated as the deepest layer (e.g., "It from Bit")
Mathematics	Debated	Depends on realism vs. constructivism
Quantum	Likely yes	May emerge from info-theoretic or topological foundations
Consciousness	Debated	Fundamental in idealism; emergent in physicalism
Materialism	Yes	Emerges from quantum & informational levels

---

Final Reflection

If we seek a non-emergent base — a true ground of being — the best candidates are:

• Information (in digital or entropy-theoretic views)

• Mathematics (if Platonist)

• Consciousness (if idealist)

Each represents a different metaphysical orientation:

• Information → computational/structural reality.

• Mathematics → abstract, logical determinism.

• Consciousness → experiential/phenomenal primacy.

You could think of them as three mutually irreducible candidates for reality’s foundation.

Would you like to explore the consequences of treating one of these as the absolute non-emergent base?

 

 

[umbrarchist]

A search did not turn up the word 'paradigm' in this thread. As far as I am concerned there is Only One reality. But every individual has a paradigm of reality in their heads. They are all WRONG! At least in that they are incomplete because no one knows all there is of reality and most likely some of what they think they know is wrong.

 

I ran across General Semantics in high school because of Robert Heinlein.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_semantics

 

 

 

https://www.interzoneeditions.net/IntrosgENG.pdf

 

https://www.afirstlook.com/docs/gensem.pdf

.

[Delano]

6 hours ago, umbrarchist said:

As far as I am concerned there is Only One reality. But every individual has a paradigm of reality in their heads.

Wouldn't this mean that there is no objective reality. Just many subjective ones

[umbrarchist]

 

qi

/CHē/

noun

noun: ki

1. the circulating life force whose existence and properties are the basis of much Chinese philosophy and medicine.

   "acupuncture is thought to work by balancing the body's flow of qi"

    

    

   Who is there to be objective about it?

[aka Contrarian]

Are "reality" and "existence" interchangeable or at least interdependent? Speaking of   semantics...

I don't pretend to totally comprehend or even challenge all of what other human beings determine to be infallible. I just wonder. I do accept the possibility that some things are beyond human comprehension and are.what.they.are. - audio syllabels encapsulated in visual symbols....   

 

pass me the toke.

 

[Delano]

6 hours ago, umbrarchist said:

 

qi

/CHē/

noun

noun: ki

1. the circulating life force whose existence and properties are the basis of much Chinese philosophy and medicine.

   "acupuncture is thought to work by balancing the body's flow of qi"

    

    

   Who is there to be objective about it?

The Accupuncturist?

5 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

Are "reality" and "existence" interchangeable or at least interdependent

Not for me, reality is subjective. A person that is deceased no longer exists corporally. However they have a reality, than those who are living. Although I have no way of knowing.

[Delano]

16 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

audio syllabels encapsulated in visual symbols

Symbols + Sound = Information

[ProfD]

It would be interesting to know how these world leaders perceive reality especially when their actions have consequences over billions of lives.

 

Russian president Vladamir Putin is responsible for possibly over 1 million dead people. He could alter that reality and stop the killing in a matter of minutes.

[aka Contrarian]

4 hours ago, Delano said:

Symbols + Sound = Information

Does information equal explanation?

 

2 hours ago, ProfD said:

...Russian president Vladamir Putin is responsible for possibly over 1 million dead people. He could alter that reality and stop the killing in a matter of minutes.

I don't belueve Putin can alter the reality of what has already happened. He can only prevent more of the same from continuing to happen. 

He can choose Life over Death. Why he has been entrusted with this power is a mystery - to me.

[Delano]

3 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

Does information equal explanation

 

No i think thinking, analysis, knowledge understanding are needed.

 

The information is there but sometimes insight is required. Electricity amd Magnetism are two side of the same coin. However Maxwell noticed that an electric charge has a magnetic field amd magnets can be used to create electricity.

[ProfD]

11 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

I don't belueve Putin can alter the reality of what has already happened. He can only prevent more of the same from continuing to happen. 

He can choose Life over Death. Why he has been entrusted with this power is a mystery - to me.

Right.  Putin has the *power* to both sanction and stop the senseless killing of people. How and why people like him are allowed to do it are the problems/questions/mysteries humans should be trying to solve instead of sitting on the sidelines.

[Troy]

12 hours ago, Delano said:

The information is there but sometimes insight is required

Just because one doesn’t understand, it does not exclude it from being information, does it?

 

4 hours ago, ProfD said:

Putin has the *power* to both sanction and stop the senseless killing of people.

Sure, but there’s always another Putin right behind Putin. He is not exactly a unicorn. If he did not maintain a strong presence someone else will come by and take control.
 

The risk our country faces. Is that the guard rails in place to prevent a Putin from emerging here. Left unchecked Trump can become a Putin. 
 

Crossing Trump can be dangerous not just financially but physically. His supporters are attacking politicians!?
 

If I were in a position to be a threat to him, I would be very careful what I say or do that might upset him— he is not playing around. 

[Delano]

3 hours ago, Troy said:

Just because one doesn’t understand, it does not exclude it from being information, does it?

Yeah I  think it does. If i give a non Astrologer an ephemeris, for them it is useless. However for me it is full of information.

[ProfD]

18 minutes ago, Troy said:

Sure, but there’s always another Putin right behind Putin. He is not exactly a unicorn. If he did not maintain a strong presence someone else will come by and take control.

Sure.  History has produced several dictators.  While they are not unicorns, most civilized countries are not run by dictators.  The most ruthless dictators do not come a dime per dozen. 

 

Still, a dictator is just *one* man who is running a country of millions or nowadays, a billion people.  It does not take a whole lot to overthrow a dictator. 

 

Dictators are *allowed* to thrive because their people *believe* in them. 

 

IOW, a large enough majority of the population is perfectly fine with the BS their dictator does.

 

18 minutes ago, Troy said:

The risk our country faces. Is that the guard rails in place to prevent a Putin from emerging here. Left unchecked Trump can become a Putin. 
 

Crossing Trump can be dangerous not just financially but physically. His supporters are attacking politicians!?
 

If I were in a position to be a threat to him, I would be very careful what I say or do that might upset him— he is not playing around. 

To my point above, POTUS OJ could become a dictator if his MAGA base chooses to catapult him there. 

 

It would not be our democracy that would keep POTUS OJ from becoming a dictator. 

 

It would have to be the will of the people that prevents POTUS OJ from becoming a dictator.

 

It remains to be seen how far white supremacists are willing to let POTUS OJ go with his BS.

[Troy]

4 hours ago, Delano said:

If i give a non Astrologer an ephemeris, for them it is useless. However for me it is full of information

Exactly. Does a book contain information? From your perspective only if you can read it. From my perspective even if you can’t read it it’s still information.
 

Now, if you took that same book and randomly scrambled all of the letters and characters in it to the person who is illiterate there is no difference, but the person who can read the information is gone.

 

4 hours ago, ProfD said:

It would have to be the will of the people that prevents POTUS OJ from becoming a dictator.

The people are going to change anything a third are too apathetic to even vote let alone revolt. Another third are behind the president. Off the remaining third most are scared or too concerned with their own welfare to do anything. This is where checks and balances are supposed to prevent shit from running off the rails.

 

Time will tell.

 

 

 

 

 

[Delano]

42 minutes ago, Troy said:

Exactly. Does a book contain information? From your perspective only if you can read it. From my perspective even if you can’t read it it’s still information.

It's like the difference between information and data. Knowledge gives data meaning.