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Troy

Survey Results: Is This Photo of Viola Davis Subtly Racist?

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Cynique

 

You're hopeless. You're thinking is so outdated. Your whole world would collapse if you viewed this subject objectively but you're stuck on stupid. if every black woman stopped dying her hair and wore it natural, very little would change. You naively think they would suddenly become submissive woman who would submit to polygamy and look upon black men as kings. Get real and wake up from your silly dream.


It's not so much that my thinking is "out dated".
It's that THIS particular society that we find ourselves in is an UNNATURAL society with UNNATURAL values and ethics.

This society was founded by Caucasian men, not African men.
And because of this, it's social norms and morals are in line with how CAUCASIANS think and behave.

If all African women stopped dying their hair and wore it naturally it would be shocking at first and there may be some social consequences, but eventually the society in general would get used to and embrace it.

Human beings always embrace what is natural unless they are FORCED otherwise.

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I don't agree. Just because you consider something unnatural, doesn't mean it is.  You  are not an authority on the subject. What's unnatural is your need to impose your views on others as if they have been proven right in someplace other than your narrow mind.

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  21 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Yeah, we as a people aren't Black or even purely African.
 We're mixed up with a lot of Caucasian and Native American ancestry.
This is why I refer to our people here in America as "AfroAmericans" meaning Americans of African DESCENT.

We aren't a race, as AfroAmericans we're an ETHNIC GROUP.
We come in all shades and colors but we all have similar backgrounds and practice the same culture.

@Pioneer1 I have been saying this all along, that we are a hybrid group of slave descendants who have our own unique indigenous culture and have assimilated into the American mainstream.  So all of your BS about our true African instincts and lifestyles being repressed as we are restricted to an unnatural European morality are totally inconsistent with your above quote.  How we act and dress and comport ourselves are a manisfestation of the amalgamated bloodlines that make us a new breed akin to an ethnicity that is what it is.  

 

 

Also  there is a growing consensus on this board that black unity is an unrealized concept that has been continually promoted by those who haven't discerned that  adhering to the same idea over and over again and expecting a different result can be a sign of "insanity".   Individuals of color can get over in this country  and transcend the "effects" of white racism by finding a niche for their skill-sets.  

 

Out of necessity, in the year 2018 of the 21st century, it's time to get a new set of eyes and broadened our scopes, instead of clinging to old notions that that function as security blankets.

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Cynique

 

https://aalbc.com/tc/profile/5568-pioneer1/I have been saying this all along, that we are a hybrid group of slave descendants who have our own unique indigenous culture and have assimilated into the American mainstream. So all of your BS about our true African instincts and lifestyles being repressed as we are restricted to an unnatural European morality are totally inconsistent with your above quote. How we act and dress and comport ourselves are a manisfestation of the amalgamated bloodlines that make us a new breed akin to an ethnicity that is what it is.


I wonder how Troy feels about this statement.

For years I've said that our genetics and our race influences our behavior and thought patterns as a people and he didn't like this.
Now YOU'RE pretty much saying the same thing.
That our racial genetics...atleast in part....strongly influences our culture and behavior.
And the more or less of particular genes we have in our bloodlines also influences them.

 

 

 

Also there is a growing consensus on this board that black unity is an unrealized concept that has been continually promoted by those who haven't discerned that adhering to the same idea over and over again and expecting a different result can be a sign of "insanity". Individuals of color can get over in this country and transcend the "effects" of white racism by finding a niche for their skill-sets.

 

Ofcourse they can.
This has ALWAYS been the case.

But historically the amount of racism we face determines HOW HARD this trancendence will be and WHAT PERCENTAGE of our people become successful under it.

In other words, the more racism you face the higher the resistance you will have to face to overcome it and the more of our people who will succumb to that resistance.
Which is why more AfroAmericans became successful AFTER slavery than DURING it.

So what do we learn from this?

We learn that a MAJOR factor in being successful isn't just getting more education, learning new skills and trade.
These things are good and necessary.
But another MAJOR factor is eliminating as much racism from society as we can so that there will be LESS RESISTANCE in the way of our success.

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37 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

For years I've said that our genetics and our race influences our behavior and thought patterns as a people and he didn't like this.
Now YOU'RE pretty much saying the same thing.
That our racial genetics...atleast in part....strongly influences our culture and behavior.
And the more or less of particular genes we have in our bloodlines also influences them.

i don't see how what i said contradicts anything Troy ever said,  or how what i said agrees with any of the tripe in the last 2 lines of your quote. 

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i  said nothing about  genes  and genetic influence as they relate to culture.  And I'm done wasting my time on you.

 

 

ð´

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On 8/23/2018 at 3:54 PM, Cynique said:

Black men just can't seem to accept that blond hair is about vanity and attraction. 

 

Perhaps @Cynique but who is Mary trying to be attractive to, herself, other females, who?

 

The only men to comment on this issue is Pioneer and myself.  I agree with @Pioneer1 in that I find Mary attractive despite her hairstyle. 

 

Now whether she wears her hair because she has been programmed to seek a European standard of beauty is a matter for a psychologist to discern and is no longer a position I'm willing to assert on complete strangers -- I doubt Mary even knows whether this is the case herself...

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African Americans are probably more Americans than African. 

We should be more concerned about the content of our mind than the condition of our hair. Dick Gregory. 

Judging by the posts it isn't a racist picture. It seems to be more about the eye of the beholder. 

 

Women are to be consumed like a meal. The complaint is that she isn't appetizing 

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48 minutes ago, Troy said:

The only men to comment on this issue is Pioneer and myself.  I agree with @Pioneer1 in that I find Mary attractive despite her hairstyle.

Well, suffice to say that the opinion of 2 men out of a millions proves nothing.  There's no accounting for taste.

 

36 minutes ago, Delano said:

African Americans are probably more Americans than African. 

We should be more concerned about the content of our mind than the condition of our hair. .. 

Thanks for finally injecting a refreshing point of view into a tired  subject that has been beaten to death.  If black women cared what black men thought about their blond hair, they'd stop dying it.  Get a clue.  

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@Cynique lets not go off the deep end.  I was not saying that millions of men agree with me and Pioneer.  Indeed I mentioned "The only men to comment on this issue is Pioneer and myself. " to indicate that it indeed was ONLY two opinions.   

 

Further to suggest the women don't style their hair to appeal to men seems to be a case of denial. I'm not saying ALL women, obviously you are not one, but surely you know a significant number do-- especially ones interested in attracting a mate.

 

I'm sure there are plenty of brothers that Love Mary Blond hair look.  It is not clear if @Delano is one of them.

 

 

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@Troy   Be advised that women dress for each other just as much as they do for men. They love impressing one other in the hopes of inspiring envy.    As for blond hair and black men, i repeat: there's no accounting for taste.  And the bottom line remains that women adopt whatever appearance makes them feel comfortable with themselves.  

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IMO, they attempt to exude sexiness and i do think they are very inclined toward men who are more interested in what's inside their head rather than whats on top of their skull.   

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9 hours ago, Troy said:

Further to suggest the women don't style their hair to appeal to men seems to be a case of denial. I'm not saying ALL women, obviously you are not one, but surely you know a significant number do-- especially ones interested in attracting a mate.

 

@Troy men don't factor into our lives like that... We, women, dress and style ourselves for ourselves.  We look for styles that compliment us that make us feel the best about ourselves.  When we feel we look our best then we feel confident and it's the confidence that attract others to us.

We seek to attract others for many different reasons -men being the least of those reasons. 


In fact, women have been known to elicit opinions from a gay men on fashion and will buy clothes they design for us.  Heterosexual men have commented on my outfits/hairstyle/haircolor but I've never looked to them for approval.  

In fact, think who had the most to say about what former first lady Michelle Obama wore - men or women?  Think about who reads fashion magazines?  Read the copy - it rarely, if ever talks about what men will think about the designs.  Think about who styles our hair?  I think I've had one heterosexual hairstylist in my life.  The others who styled/colored  my hair did so, so I could look "fierce"...

Fierce translates into confidence, btw.

Now, when you see women wear sweats,  ponytail, and a baseball cap, even sunglasses that's when we are dressing for men.  We specifically don't want attention, but especially a man's attention.  But I've learned, as my "sisters" have, sometimes that doesn't even work.   

 

10 hours ago, Troy said:

I doubt Mary even knows whether this is the case herself.


As for hair color, "blond" hair is high maintenance especially if your natural color is dark or grey.... In both cases you have to strip the hair color to make it porous enough to accept the blond color.  Strip it too much and you wind up bald.  (see any youtube video for example)
So I doubt very seriously that Mary doesn't know why she colors her hair.  She knows why - and has chosen to maintain it for her career that reaches back more than 25 years. 

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@Mel Hopkins Yeah you are right about not caring in the about least about what Mrs. Obama wore. Same goes for all the hullabaloo over the princess' gown.

 

I know how much effort my ex put into making her hair blond and how she complained when the the color did not come out right--it was very high maintenance. I know I don't have that kind a patience, which is one reason I shave my head and face. She definitely did not do it for me, cause I could care less what color her hair was. I guess yall are right. 

 

@Delano 🙂 then why do so many women complain about how difficult it is to find a partner and I just dont mean a f-buddy?

 

 

 

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23 hours ago, Troy said:

then why do so many women complain about how difficult it is to find a partner and I just dont mean a f-buddy?

 

It's complicated. Black women complain about not being able to find a partner because they are looking for a male counterpart with whom they will be compatible. Not an easy task.  With great numbers of black men being incarcerated, what's left are law-abiders or ex-cons who are content to enjoy a life where, because they are in demand,  can pick and choose whom they want to engage with. Conversely, sistas  are reluctant to lower their standards in order to compete for the less than impressive crop of studs available out there.  To many single black woman, the older they get, the more  they come to appreciate being free of the obligations of marriage and a family. And, of course, white women remain a constant threat.  Enter the booty-call alternative.    

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4 minutes ago, Cynique said:

Conversely, sistas  are reluctant to lower their standards in order to compete for the less than impressive crop of studs available out there.  To many single black woman, the older they get, the more  they come to appreciate being free of the obligations of marriage and a family.

 

Amen @Cynique, you continue to fire on all cylinders! I'm single - and will remain that way unless I meet the man of my dreams.  Life is too short  but can be extremely long to settle for just any ole man. 

 

3 hours ago, Troy said:

then why do so many women complain about how difficult it is to find a partner and I just dont mean a f-buddy?

 

I know you asked @Delano but since I'm a woman I can say, I don't believe it's difficult to find a life partner.  It's difficult to settle.

We spend so much time as daughters, sisters, that we don't have a clue as to who we are as a woman.  Second, we rush into a relationships because we meet the father of our children. Sometimes a father isn't necessarily a husband or lover.  Sad part is sometimes we don't even know that until we've had our babies and then we realize - ugh...who is this guy?  Or our lover is no one we want to have as father to our children.

 

Some women are super lucky or super disciplined to be with the father of their children who is also their lover too!  And their lover is disciplined enough to be a husband and father.  

 

And it's not a matter of women don't know what we want. 

 

We absolutely know who want but then there's timing. 

 

Right time, wrong man; wrong time, right man; wrong man, wrong time and then jackpot - right time; right man. 

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Interesting that my response elicited a question from Troy. Mel and Cynique laughed and responded. 

Troy why ask a man what women want. 

A women needs three things food water and compliments. Chris Rock

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then why do so many women complain about how difficult it is to find a partner and I just dont mean a f-buddy?


I know Cynique (and possibly Mel and Chev) will think I'm presuptuous for saying this but from my experiences and observations as well as what we know about biology, I'm pretty comfortable in saying that for the most part women simply don't have the SAME SEX DRIVE that men have.

Usually when I say this atleast one woman wants to jump up and claim it's not true.
However it's never one with a HIGH sex drive comparable to that of the average man.

In other words when I say I...and most men....prefer multiple partners if we can get away with it and most women don't because they don't have the type of sex drive we as men have a woman will jump up and try to argue this point.
However when I ask HER does SHE prefer multiple partners she will always say "no" and then go on a tangent about how it's a sign of maturity to settle down with one and how men should learn to control thier urges.

But it's just a fact, most women are NOT as horny as men.
There are exceptions to this rule.....many.
A small percentage of women are polyamorous and prefer MULTIPLE sexual partners.
They are typically known as nymphomaniacs and "freaks" in the bedroom, lol.
And there are men who are pretty much celibate and have no desire for women or men but just don't care for sex at all.

But it's USUALLY....well over 75%....the opposite.
USUALLY because of our higher testosterone rate, men typically want more sex than women and it's like this all the way up into our 60s and in many cases 70s and 80s.
Where as for MOST women, when they get past their mid 60s they aren't really looking for sexual relationships.
Why?
Because their hormonal levels have dimishised quite a bit and many lose their sex drive.

I must say again, this isn't the case for ALL men and women, but certainly for the majority.


 

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13 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

I'm pretty comfortable in saying that for the most part women simply don't have the SAME SEX DRIVE that men have.

 

@Pioneer1  , Troy was pretty specific about saying that he wasn't referring to F-buddies. This question was about finding and building a relationship with a ( life) partner.     Have you been able to find a life partner? What has been your experience with a viable relationship with a woman.  Have you ever been engaged,  left at the altar - married? divorced?

And by the way,  how is it even possible to measure someone's sex drive? 

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@Pioneer1

3 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

I know Cynique (and possibly Mel and Chev) will think I'm presuptuous for saying this but from my experiences and observations as well as what we know about biology, I'm pretty comfortable in saying that for the most part women simply don't have the SAME SEX DRIVE that men have.

Yada, yada, yada.   

                                                                         ð´

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Yes, @Mel Hopkins I was speaking about a life partner (of course this is a subject I'm more interested in lately).  The questions you posed for @Pioneer1 are good ones. For the sake of clarity, I'm talking about a life partner that you are also making love to.

 

I think both men and women have varying levels of sex drives over time. @Pioneer1 you should also consider the fact that our culture demonizes women who express a strong sexual desire and place an opposite pressure on men -- if you have not banged at least 10 women before you got out of high school and knocked a few up -- you must be a fag 😉

 

Pioneer, could it be possible that our male dominated culture as manipulated you into believing something about human sexuality that is not supported in our biology?

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1 hour ago, Troy said:

Pioneer, could it be possible that our male dominated culture as manipulated you into believing something about human sexuality that is not supported in our biology?

I don't give any weight to pioneer's individual observations based on his experiences. When deciding how things are,  I doubt if he took into consideration  that maybe women don't find him appealing enough to want to have  a lot of sex with him.  This is in keeping with those who suggest that a woman's sex organ is her brain.  

 

In fact, a woman's sex habits are as individual as her finger print.  What studies have reported is that women reach their sexual peak in their '30s and while her libido is coming into its own, a man's potency is on the decline, making her best matched with a male in his early 20s. Women are also more horny when they're ovulating and  being pregnant can also amp up the sexual desire.  Post menopausal women, free of the worries of becoming pregnant often turn into "hot mamas" depending on whether or not they've had  a  hysterectomy. or their ovaries are still in tact.  Also, frigidity and lack of interest can be due to health issues that need to be addressed. 

 

More recent studies may have modified some of these claims.  Girls are reaching puberty at much earlier ages nowadays and this may have inspired some reassessment.  

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Troy

 

I think both men and women have varying levels of sex drives over time. @Pioneer1 you should also consider the fact that our culture demonizes women who express a strong sexual desire and place an opposite pressure on men


Admittedly, I wasn't following the conversation TOO deep so perhaps I just snatched that quote and ran with it.

Ofcourse it varies, but come on man.....you KNOW women (of any ethnicity) don't look at sex and sexual relationships the same women men do.
This is a known fact from around the world and since time immemorial.

And you're right women are unfortunately demonized if they have a high sex drive, which is wrong in my opinion. But one of the reasons this is the case is because it's stll relatively UNUSUAL for a woman to be just as aggressive sexually as men are.
It may SOUND fun when we're talking about it, but usually when we meet such women it's genrally a TURN OFF rather than a turn on!

Imagine you see a fine sista walking down the street and she runs up to you and starts grabbing your crotch and begging you to "do her" right there in an alley somewhere, you'd push her away in a mixture of fear, disgust, and pity.

 

 

Pioneer, could it be possible that our male dominated culture as manipulated you into believing something about human sexuality that is not supported in our biology?


It's possibly, but highly unlikely because my beliefs are supported BY biology and chemistry.
-it's a fact that sexual desire and sex drive is largely governed by testosterone
-it's a fact that men typically have 10 times the amount of testosterone that women have

Again, there are exceptions to the rule but we don't maintain a society based on exceptions but on rules.
Marriage was designed for MEN AND WOMEN to come together.
Ofcourse some men want to come together (or cum on???) with other men, and the same with women....but those are exceptions...not rules.

Yes this society indeed manipulates both men and women, but just like most jokes are based in an element of truth....so are most forms of manipulation.
If a difference between the thinking and desires of males and females didn't ALREADY exist then those who control society would have had nothing to base their manipulation on.


 

 

 



Mel

 

Troy was pretty specific about saying that he wasn't referring to F-buddies. This question was about finding and building a relationship with a ( life) partner. Have you been able to find a life partner? What has been your experience with a viable relationship with a woman. Have you ever been engaged, left at the altar - married? divorced?
 

I haven't been married (yet) but I've been engaged twice.
The first one I was proposed to.....lol.
The second time I did the proposing.

I've had a few relationships with women I could easily spend the rest of my life with if that's what I desired but I don't call them my "life partner" or "soul mate" because I don't believe in the existence of those terms the way most people understand them when they say them.

I believe in CHEMISTRY.
I believe some people just jive (or "jibe"...lol) with eachother better than others because of the proper chemistry.
You see this in relationships, jobs, just friendship in general.
But as far as having a person SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED for you and you alone, no.

 

 

 

 

And by the way, how is it even possible to measure someone's sex drive?


By the same methods used in OTHER aspects of behavioral science, through direct observation and occasional experimentation.
Anyone over 30 who has had an average social life can readily and easily see that men and women IN GENERAL (again there are exceptions) typically have different sexual habits, desires, and expectations.

If there weren't differences between the thinking of men and women when it comes to sex then their certainly wouldn't be so much sexual conflict in the AfroAmerican community between men and women.

Most romances novels and even the basis of YOUR recent book depends on not only the understanding of but the EXPECTATION of these differences between the sexes.
You wrote your book with the EXPECTATION that females (more so than males) would know and understand what you're talking about.

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1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:


By the same methods used in OTHER aspects of behavioral science, through direct observation and occasional experimentation.

 

@Pioneer1 then by those standards  you should know- the sex-drive between the sexes is about equal.

And go 'head for you accepting a woman's proposal! 
 

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

Most romances novels and even the basis of YOUR recent book depends on not only the understanding of but the EXPECTATION of these differences between the sexes.
You wrote your book with the EXPECTATION that females (more so than males) would know and understand what you're talking about.


Actually you're correct here ...which is why I got snagged when I found I had more male readers initially than women... AND the men had more positive reviews and in-depth analysis than my women readers... It was quite bizarre to me at first but then I realized that it was the subject matter and my approach.  Then I started to reach women who were more like me - so then it evened out.  

So your assumption was correct.  I wrote based on my understanding and expectation - but I misjudged my audience so the outcome was surprising.

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4 hours ago, Troy said:

Pioneer, could it be possible that our male dominated culture as manipulated you into believing something about human sexuality that is not supported in our biology?

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

It's possibly, but highly unlikely because my beliefs are supported BY biology and chemistry.
-it's a fact that sexual desire and sex drive is largely governed by testosterone

@Pioneer1   I repeat:

 

2 hours ago, Cynique said:

A woman's sex habits are as individual as her finger print.  What studies have reported is that women reach their sexual peak in their '30s and while her libido is coming into its own, a man's potency is on the decline, making her best matched with a male in his early 20s. Women are also more horny when they're ovulating and  being pregnant can also amp up the sexual desire.  Post menopausal women, free of the worries of becoming pregnant often turn into "hot mamas" depending on whether or not they've had  a  hysterectomy. or their ovaries are still in tact.  Also, frigidity and lack of interest can be due to health issues that need to be addressed. 

 

More recent studies may have modified some of these claims.  Girls are reaching puberty at much earlier ages nowadays and this may have inspired some reassessment.

i might add, that if a man is a good lover who gets the job done, a woman can be insatiable.  BTW, the woman's sex hormone is estrogen, not testoserone.

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4 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

I just snatched... and ran... 

Okay i have twisted your words. But how many hit and runs have you done? 

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On 8/29/2018 at 3:04 PM, Troy said:

you should also consider the fact that our culture demonizes women who express a strong sexual desire and place an opposite pressure on men

i don't agree with this.  I don't think society concerns itself with the sexual behavior of women anymore.   Nobody cares. Everybody is too self absorbed with other things.  Furthermore, women lie about their escapades.  They screw as much as they want to.  They just don't broadcast it.  

 

22 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

If there weren't differences between the thinking of men and women when it comes to sex then their certainly wouldn't be so much sexual conflict in the AfroAmerican community between men and women.

Oh shut up.  Take that long dissertation and shove it.  You're no expert on the subject.  The conflict between black men and women has little to do with sex.  it's more about what each one brings to the table and how this impacts on a relationship; about men wanting validation and support and women wanting attention and appreciation. And money.

 

Men need to stop speaking with authority about women. Y'all don't know jack.   Your ears would burn if you'd ever be a fly on  the wall during girl talk.  

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@Cynique maybe in the big liberal cities, but remember everywhere is not New York City or Chicago.  There are still places (and even communities within these large cities) where women and men are held to a different standard regarding their sexuality.

 

Some people, like @Pioneer1, believe these differences are natural and that part of our culture's sickness is that we fail to recognize and support these differences between men and women.

 

I don't assume to know to answers, but I do know everyone is different and the country, at least big sections of it, is not nearly as liberal as you seem to believe.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Troy said:

@Cynique maybe in the big liberal cities, but remember everywhere is not New York City or Chicago.  There are still places (and even communities within these large cities) where women and men are held to a different standard regarding their sexuality.

Standards don't come into play if people don't know what others are doing.  People do what they want to do  - in secret!  Discretion is their shield.   What places do you have in mind that are apart from big cities?  The suburbs where teenagers are sending nudies of each other on their iPhones?  The rural areas where Meth deadens peoples morals?  Trailer parks known for their white trash?  The farms down in Mississippi where illegitimacy  and teen-aged pregnancy are common?  The little towns and villages where the coaches are having affairs with student athletes of both sexes, and female teachers are seducing their young male pupils? College campuses that are home to hook-ups?  The Internet, for one thing,  has tainted everybody and  illicitness is not determined by location. It exists everywhere, including pockets of  "respectibility".  

You need to get out of your Mayberry mode and  watch  true crime programs like Dateline and 20-20 , real life stories about murder sex and mayhem that goes on all over America's heartland and not just in urban areas. (And churches are not exempt from any of this.) Watch Maury Povich and Jerry Springer.  Of course this tripe offends your sensibilities, but these shows deal with a reality that goes on in all walks of life. Not just big cities.  

1 hour ago, Troy said:

Some people, like @Pioneer1, believe these differences are natural and that part of our culture's sickness is that we fail to recognize and support these differences between men and women.

Well, it's no secret that i don't think pioneer's beliefs  hold anymore legitimacy or authenticity than anyone else's. 

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No, no, NO. I will not subject myself to those "true crime programs" they give people a warped perspective of reality.

 

@Cynique lets distinguish actual behavior from the perception of that behavior.  I'm not disputing how humans behave and the predilections -- on that we agree. 

 

What I'm trying to get you to see is that the PERCEPTION of that behavior varies a great deal in this country and the differences in perception often effect how people behave.  

 

You can find catholic priests fornicating with littles boys, but the behavior is generally frowned upon by the parishioners, so the priest not only hides the behavior they speak out against it.  This is no different that the baptist minister who says gay people will go to hell while he knows full well his choir direct is a closeted homosexual.

 

But that same homosexual can flaunt their sexuality, in the church, without restriction in some places.

 

The same goes for the sexual behavior women -- sure we all behave the same way (or want to), but in some places the behavior is great curtailed -- sometime with deadly consequences and it is virtually always women who suffer these consequences.

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@Troy For one thing, I'm not talking about shows like NCIS and Law and Order. Have  you ever watched the true crime programs i mentioned?   These are documentaries featuring real people, - police officers, lawyers, medical examiners, survivors of victims, home movies, and actual  court scenes, not dramatizations, but stories that tell themselves and in doing so encompass the truth.   

 

You seem to be  talking about ethics, arguing that people can disapprove of  bad behavior whether they see it in action or not.  That's true.  The reason why people do unacceptable things in secret is because they know this and that's why they don't flaunt what they do.  i don't think this mindset has anything to do with geographical location.  

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