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Cynique

Hindsight is 20-20

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The ongoing discussion blowing up the board, started out with the question "is science the new religion", and proceeded to morph into a slugfest over whether science espouses religion.  As a debate, it  exemplified  the  "irresistible force meeting an immovable object" axiom. The passion with which participants  proselytized  their arguments was akin to religious fervor, with everybody trying  to exorcise the demons of those with opposing views.  From another perspective, the heated exchanges were also a war of words, aiming verbal weapons that missed as often as they hit their targets. Truth was twisted and facts were bent.   What had an equally interesting effect was the side-liners who chose not to enter the fray or take sides, not to mention  a mediator who injected challenges.  In the end it was, not surprising, me against Pioneer.  Me, trying to rise above my  ad-hominem arguments, to say in so many words that they're 2 sides to every question, and Pioneer probably sticking to his guns.  This brouhaha  was more of a showcase for  a clash of personalities than anything. Very little was resolved before the subject meandered off on another tangent, asking  whether acknowledging  religion was on a par with accepting it.

 

Conflict seems to be a very dominant factor in human interaction.  Most people are not only looking for  reinforcement of their views but for conversion to them. Everybody wants to be right and in the process the end doesn't always justify the means.  

 

Kudos to  those  mature enough to be open-minded good listeners, and who make enlightenment their priority.  When i grow up, i want to be just like you.  This is knowledge i have come to comprehend and it's going to the top of my bucket list.        

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39 minutes ago, Cynique said:

 

Kudos to  those  mature enough to be open-minded good listeners, and who make enlightenment their priority. 

 

@Cynique  This is where I would like to be too.  Unfortunately, I fail at every day.  Thank goodness for tomorrows.  :)

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That is called wisdom; it comes with age (usually).

 

Interestingly you don't become enlightened winning arguments.

 

 

 

 

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When i said "enlightenment", i meant  the  possibility of  not only learning something from listening to other points of view, but also about the people who hold these opinions.  I also associate enlightenment with opening your mind, not closing it; with seeking an understanding of life and those who live it, hoping that in the process you are able to separate what's important from what's trivial. Needless to say, this is a journey.  

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enlightenment

 
 

NOUN

  • 1mass noun The action of enlightening or the state of being enlightened.

    ‘Robbie looked to me for enlightenment’
     
    More example sentences
    Synonyms
    1. 1.1 The action or state of attaining or having attained spiritual knowledge or insight, in particular (in Buddhism) that awareness which frees a person from the cycle of rebirth.

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 Are you saying my definition,which mentions nothing about Buddhsim,  isn't in alignment the dictionary one?? 

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I believe in dialog, sharing opinions, and seeing things from eachother's perspective.
However at the end of the day....there are still some things that are definately true and definately false.

Truth must be accepted once it's proven.

We must not reject the truth simply because it wasn't presented to us in a way that we would like or how we expect it to be or because it came from someone we don't like.

A naked truth is better than a well dressed lie.

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6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


We must not reject the truth simply because it wasn't presented to us in a way that we would like or how we expect it to be or because it came from someone we don't like.

A naked truth is better than a well dressed lie.

However in practice the reverse of these two statements is more likely to be the case. 

 

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12 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

However at the end of the day....there are still some things that are definately true and definately false.

What's true is that you can't spell "definitely", something I have called to your attention before, but it went right over your head.

 

12 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

The naked truth is better than a well dressed lie.

Typical of you would be a "well dressed lie" declaring that the correct way to spell "definitely" is the white man's way of spelling it.   

 

When it comes to you, the truth is what you decide to believe.  That's why you can't accept what Science says is true about there being only one race. 

 

Ditch the platitudes and heed your own words.   

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On 2/26/2018 at 10:59 PM, Cynique said:

Kudos to  those  mature enough to be open-minded good listeners, and who make enlightenment their priority.  When i grow up, i want to be just like you.  This is knowledge i have come to comprehend and it's going to the top of my bucket list.

 

It is a constant struggle, Cynique.

 

I have a LONG way to go before I see myself as truly objective. What I try to do is not remain too attached to anything I believe. 

 

I know I am moving into a little bit of objectivity when I begin to black out when even those whom I believe are right, become egotistical and bombastic in their responses. Any attack, to me, causes me to back off and lose a tad bit of respect for those whose views I happen to agree with. I then sink into questioning all sides of a discussion, those I agree and disagree with. All becomes a question and suspect. I ultimately quiet myself and my spirit and just watch and listen. Why? Because I want to be a good listener. I want to be enlightened. I want to find truth. Again, I have a VERY long way to go. Too long. But I am working on it. When the words start to fly in here, I go quiet, sit, cross my legs, close my eyes, and let the sounds flow over me until they find truth. 

 

 

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@zajiYes, objectivity is difficult to maintain and it is easier to be objective when you are not acquainted with the people involved in a debate. Once personality permeates the exchanges, then this has an influence on who you side with.  I, for instance,  could never be objective about anything Donald Trump says because his smug overconfident demeanor prejudices me.  People can be forgiven for being sore losers, but bad "winners" prone to gloating,  are the pits.   

 

We are all flawed individuals, but recognizing our shortcomings is, in itself, a form of enlightenment. 

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It's one thing to be a loser with a good attitude.
Another to be a winner with a rotten attitude.

But if you're usually wrong AND you have a rotten attitude....lol...WATCH OUT NOW!

 

 

 

Zaji

I know I am moving into a little bit of objectivity when I begin to black out when even those whom I believe are right, become egotistical and bombastic in their responses. Any attack, to me, causes me to back off and lose a tad bit of respect for those whose views I happen to agree with. I then sink into questioning all sides of a discussion, those I agree and disagree with. All becomes a question and suspect. I ultimately quiet myself and my spirit and just watch and listen. Why? Because I want to be a good listener. I want to be enlightened. I want to find truth. Again, I have a VERY long way to go. Too long. But I am working on it. When the words start to fly in here, I go quiet, sit, cross my legs, close my eyes, and let the sounds flow over me until they find truth.


For me, it depends on WHO'S doing the arguing.

I don't like seeing Black people fighting and quarreling with eachother, especially over nonsense where there is no clear right or wrong.
The recent squabble between Dr Umar Johnson and Tariq Nasheed is a good example of Black people wasting time and energy attacking eachother.

However I loved seeing intelligent Black people out-debate and cut throught the lies of White racists in an eloquent and elegant manner.
I loved seeing Malcolm X debate White scholars and intellectuals and defeat them.
I loved seeing Dr Frances Cress Welsing debate White professors and embarass them.

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@Pioneer1 What would you do if you couldn't blame white people as the reason for intelligent black people questioning your half-cocked ideas? This is your crutch.  In your mind, any black person who doesn't see things your way, is brainwashed, and you apparently include black scientists in this.  It never occurs to you that you aren't right about everything. :blink:

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This comment is to everyone. I want to ensure no one thinks I'm singling them out, because I'm not.

 

Someone mentioned the elephant parable, which I learned about a bit over 18 years ago. I've pasted it below. It speaks to many discussions across most boards on AALBC that I've observed so far. This poem is the reason why, no matter what I think, believe, opine, I leave myself open to being wrong. Why? Because anything is possible in this here universe. And at the end of it all, no human on Earth is able to see what the other is seeing/experiencing and no human is able to see the entire "elephant" of anything we could possibly know. We ALL should consider that we ALL could be wrong about ANYTHING we discuss. Unless we have direct experience with most things, we are left to trust the "blind" experience of another who is only holding a single piece of an elephant. Even with direct experience without impairment, knowledge is so vast and so much is unknown in every area of human knowledge, that we should be humble and leave ourselves open to all possibilities in a discussion.

 

I don't desperately need to be right about anything to the point of arguing people down and insulting them. I am far too interested in learning and knowledge and discovering and examining and experimenting. I want to incorporate all ideas on a subject. And while it is a curious thing to me why some have such a deep need to be right, I have gained a lot from the diverse views here and especially from those who seem to need to be right. I hold them all, those I agree with and disagree with. Particularly those I disagree with...I hold those close to me because they are the ideas that could house gems I am too shortsighted or lacking in knowledge to see at the moment.  I keep those on close watch, even as I nurture the ideas I understand and agree with. I don't want to miss a thing.

 

Blind Men and the Elephant – A Poem by John Godfrey Saxe
Here is John Godfrey Saxe’s (1816-1887) version of Blind Men and the Elephant:

It was six men of Indostan,
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.

The First approach'd the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!"

The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, -"Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear,
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!"

The Third approach'd the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
"I see," -quoth he- "the Elephant
Is very like a snake!"

The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee:
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," -quoth he,-
"'Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!"

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said- "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!"

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Then, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
"I see," -quoth he,- "the Elephant
Is very like a rope!"
And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

MORAL,

So, oft in theologic wars
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean;
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!

 

 

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@zaji, so you don't believe that some beliefs are wrong or incorrect and others are right and correct?  

 

If this does not accurately describe what you mean, you'll need to clarify it a bit more (at least for me) perhaps an example would be a good why to start.  

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7 minutes ago, Troy said:

@zaji, so you don't believe that some beliefs are wrong or incorrect and others are right and correct?  

 

If this does not accurately describe what you mean, you'll need to clarify it a bit more (at least for me) perhaps an example would be a good why to start.  

 

@Troy

 

What I'm saying is, we don't always know (for sure) which of our beliefs are correct or incorrect, just like the blind men and the elephant. They were all right and wrong at the same time, with none of them knowing they were wrong in the grand scheme of the question and what aspects of their understanding were close to right.

 

Some beliefs can be wrong, but we can't assume we know for sure which ones are wrong. That means we assume to know all. We should be open to some possibility. Be open to us not having the vantage to see everything there is to know about a thing. I'm not saying jump off a cliff because we think a seemingly erroneous belief might have some validity, but I'm saying we should not dismiss it out of hat. I gave an example  in another thread with gravity and people creating planes. Planes would not have been created if humans dismissed, out of hat, that gravity could not be defied based on their personal experience of falling whenever they jumped off something.  The belief that gravity exists and its nature is correct, not incorrect. BUT, someone or a group of people decided that the CORRECT belief and knowledge should not be taken as the end of the conversation. THIS is the crux of what I'm trying to express. Don't be dismissive simply because we have discovered something to be true or someone to be wrong. So what? Gravity is a FACT. So what? Anyone who jumps off a cliff will fall. Ok? Still, folks decided not to let that fact deter them from discovery. THIS is what I'm saying. Don't let what you think you know to be a fact and true cause you to close yourself off from the possibility of what another is proposing. Back in the day, I'm sure when folks proposed that we could fly through the air in machines, they were laughed at and and mocked (there is much historical evidence of this mockery) much in the same way I see folks dismissing other views on this board. Thank goodness those being mocked and chastised ignored those who were "right" about gravity. Cause we wouldn't have airplanes.

 

Even if one believes a person's beliefs are wrong, they should not dismiss them out of hat because there could be a discovery on the horizon, such as, airplanes. Being dismissive because we know something to be true stunts humanity's ability to grow and discover. If everyone just stood strong in the factual knowledge of gravity and decided not to test if it could be defied, simply because it is a "right" belief that gravity exists, then where would we be? Sometimes, we need to open our minds so we can see the other side of possibilities.

 

So yes, some beliefs are wrong and incorrect (as far as we know at this moment in time) and some beliefs are right and correct (as far as we know at this moment in time). But I won't dismiss/accept completely a wrong and incorrect belief, because I just might discover that I can fly. And I won't just fully accept/dismiss a right and correct belief, because I just might discover that I can fly.  I want to be pliable, so I can learn how to fly.

 

I also realize that there are some beliefs (opinions) that are neither right nor wrong, but a matter of preference. When we become too ridged, we cannot grow into discovery.  Just my opinion on this matter. Doesn't matter to me if anyone agrees or disagrees. I'm not attached. It's all good. Just sharing my thoughts.

 

 

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Well, having the courage of one's own convictions is a choice. What one believes and gravitates toward defines one as an individual, as opposed to a vacillating, ambiguous fence sitter.     My response to a person, really depends on how they present their opinion. I am challenged by arrogant pontificators.  I am charmed by people who suggest their opinions to me, rather than impose them upon me. 

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Exactly @Cynique! And that is why I courageously decide to be open to all possibilities in the universe! That is my extremely strong conviction that I will not vacillate on for anyone. I will remain open and respect the views of others, as long as it doesn't impose on my physical life and freedom. For me, that is the road to discovery and true growth and enlightenment. I agree with you 100% on that point.

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I see things a bit differently @zaji in the case of describing the elephant each person was accurately describing what they felt.  They were all correct.  The problem comes when any of them use their limited experience in an attempt to describe the entire elephant. 

 

Many of us do this without even realizing it. We do not realize we are blind to a larger whole.  This is called ignorance.  The worst of us are indeed closed to additional information we are arrogant in our ignorance.

 

In terms of airplanes.  Airplanes do not "defy" gravity.  The take advantage of another scientific principal to overcome gravity.  Indeed a complete understanding of gravity and how it works is necessary in order for one to understand flight. 

 

This similar to what you wrote, but the distinction I'm trying to make is that gravity is not "wrong," but a better understanding of the whole environment allows us to apparently defy it.  

 

Opinions and preferences are subjective, so we can all have different opinions and be completely right as far as the individual concerned. 

 

Facts are not subject to individual whims or preferences.

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@Troy. I agree with you. We don't see it differently at all. That is exactly how I see it...we use our limited experience in an attempt to describe the entire elephant. I still come to my same conclusion based on how we both see it. See, we see and agree on how we see the elephant poem, but come to different conclusions. I've mentioned this exact thing in previous threads as well.

 

Yes and yes again, VERY blind to a larger whole. VERY arrogant in our ignorance. Again, yes. Still, I come to my conclusions that I stated, even with us agreeing! See how life is?

 

In one sense they do defy gravity. I won't pick around with the terms. At the end of the day, if people stuck with what they observed about gravity and didn't take advantage of certain principals they were told could not be taken advantage of, we wouldn't have planes. Anyway you slice it, a principle was manipulated where whole populations scoffed at the idea that it could be manipulated. I will be the one scoffed at for seeing the principles of science in a different way...so i can learn to fly. LOL.

 

I never said gravity was wrong. I said gravity was right, a FACT! That is what i wrote. BUT, the fact that it was right did not deter people from attempting to manipulate it, to the raised eyebrows of most people around them who thought they were insane. THIS is my point...people dismissing people who want to look at a scientific fact differently. People telling people they are crazy because they want to look at a scientific fact differently. Discovery is made when we are open to anything and everything...when we can look at a scientific fact and say, what if? What IF we can get around gravity and do something that everyone thinks cannot be done with it? What IF we can create a machine that allows us to fly, thereby "defying" gravity to a degree? What if? I live in the "what if" of life, because I believe that anything is possible. It has been those scientists who have asked, what if, and have barreled into discoveries as their colleagues laughed at them. Until they finally surfaced on the other side with proof of their "what if" theory. I sent a list to this group of scientists who were scoffed at because their theories were outside of the scientific "norm" or truths known at the time. Some lost their jobs because of their theories. Yet, they prevailed and were vindicated when they could prove what completely went AGAINST what science said was true. They are the modern day plane inventors. They didn't care what anyone said about what can't be done or what wasn't possible. They went forward anyway to test THEIR theory.

 

All I'm saying is, we should ALL stop dismissing ideas because we NEVER know.

 

I agree reference opinions and preferences. I discuss this all the time in other circles.

 

No, facts are not subject to individual whims. But they are not the end of the conversation either. Fact...gravity exists. Gravity is not subject to individual whims. BUT, lo', look at us, we are flying. Ergo, gravity found its way into being questioned and aspects of how we interact with it are now different than what we thought. Now, this fact is being further questioned and manipulated through various scientific experiments. They are now showing how sound can levitate water.  Folks are saying, be damned with this FACT of gravity. How can we manipulate this FACT, or, realize that it might not be a concrete fact, but we simply do not know how to interact with it and see it from a different perspective. If sound can levitate water, then what if chanting a certain sound frequency can levitate us? What if we actually can fly, but we have been so stuck in the FACT of gravity, we do not go forth to experiment and discover possibility? Again, they are now levitating water with sound...so we should deeply consider what this means.

 

I don't know any other way to express my feelings on this. Simply, do not be dismissive just because we know a thing to be a fact. We close ourselves off from discovery when we do so.

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Levitation would either invalidate the laws of physics require new laws to be written or exist in a category with special rules. 

I believe in keeping an open mind. However that doesn't mean that I want to spend my resources pursuing some ideas. 

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OK @zaji we are in complete agreement and thanks for not picking about my use of the word "defy" for you understood what I was trying to communicate.

 

As far as levitation magnets can be used to do this as well.

 

@Delano I assume you meant some form of levitation using the mind right?  If so, yes there would need to be a few new laws to support that, but I doubt any of the laws are in jeopardy as no one one has demonstrated the ability to levitate themselves.

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@Troy I was probably all of 12 years old when I played with magnets to levitate metal objects. I had such a blast doing it. Very basic, elementary.

 

For me, the use of sound to levitate objects is far more fascinating. The reason is, a magnet can be touched. But I cannot touch and lift sound with my hands, hence why i'm interested in sound levitating things. I read a while back that the ancients may have used sound to build monuments, including, possibly, the pyramids.

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When you get into things like levitating, you are entering the realm of the occult, and what some would call black magic. Some would also exercise caution when investigating this because you may be summoning forces from the dark side.  This is all included in what is known as the "old wisdom".  Maybe the reason some of what mankind once knew, was better to forget.  Who knows......

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Interesting @zaji I find magnets much more fascinating. 

 

You see sound I can understand intuitively.  Sound travels over a media.  So no sound it space, but it travels faster in water.  In the cheap seat in the stadium you can observe a ball being hit before you hear it.  All of this makes sense to me indeed I could reason this out on my own.

 

But magnets never made sense until it was explained to me how they worked. Indeed electromagnetic force  is far stronger than gravity and propagates infinitely.  This is not something I could have intuited. 

 

@Cynique, maybe given how evil some people are.

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Wind always fascinated me.  You feel it, hear it and watch how it affects things, but it is invisible. 

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Humm I'm surprised you would have this question given your comments about Isaac Newton.  Newton described the force of gravity is a function of the mass of two objects as  the inverse square of the distance between them. Motion is not a factor.

 

But here too Newton was corrected by Einstein who said that gravity is not an attractive force between to bodies but a massive body's warping of space/time.  Though Newton's formula works in most practical applications.

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