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Delano

The Cult of R. Kelly

Mute R Kelly  

3 members have voted

  1. 1. The Cult of R. Kelly?

    • Should we stop playing R Kelly songs?
      0
    • Is the artist separate from their art?
      3


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Should we put R Kelly on mute?

Is the artist separate from their art?

Do celebrated people have a responsibility to their fans?

Is the lack of societal bonds creating the need for role models?

 

Should we have a quesadilla or a burrito?

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It might be helpful to explain the problem with R Kelly.  In believe there is a video of him urinating on an underage girl?  Is this right.  If not what specifically did he do that should require us to stop listening to his music?  Did he break any laws?

 

 

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I did not do an internet search on R. Kelly. But coincidentally, there was an article in the newspaper yesterday. Apparently all of the criticism against Kelly is hearsay. No convictions.

 

I think before we start trying to destroy the livelihood of others we should have perfect clarity on what they have done.

 

 

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Given the celebrities backing of mute kelly, ava duvernay and others it seems like you might be right @Delano, but that is just how it is covered. 

 

If you go by his concert attendance and popularity another story is told.

 

45 is not exactly wrong when he talks about fake news in the sense that one could get the impression that kelly has been proven guilty of a crime and that the majority of the public is outraged. But this is not the case.

 

Again, I read about this in a newspaper, not on social media so the coverage followed basic rules if journalism.

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I wouldn't DO what R. Kelly is allegedely doing, but I don't think what he's doing should be demonized.

Men using their power and money to attract a harem of young ladies for their sexual pleasures has been going on since the beginning of humanity.

What the man is doing is NATURAL.


America used to be one of the most sexually liberated nations on the planet with all types of sexual experiments and orgies going on in the 60s and 70s.
What Kelly is doing would have barely raised an eyebrown 50 years ago.

But since the Regan Era when an avalance of conservative cultural ideology began to sweep across the nation.....along with the AIDS epidemic.......sex and all forms of it outside of traditional marriage began to be demonized again.

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Just this morning I was listening to the news and there was a segment in which they discussed the #muterkelly movement.  The segment was at least 10 minutes long and they never mentioned what the specific allegations against him are.

 

I think part of the problem is just the fact that this is all rumors and hearsay right now. Ha Kelly been charged or convicted of anything? I mean I've seen comedians make jokes about Kelly urinating on women.  I have also heard some rumors about undeer age girls.  Is Kelly accused to have sex with prepubester youngers are teenager groupies chasing behind him at concerts? 

 

I'm not going to go out my way to research this subject.  In the universe of things I care about this is way down on the list.

 

The reality is that I don't have to mute R. Kelly. I have never been to see R. Kelly perform live (I understand he puts on a good show) and I have never purchased any of his music, thought of course I've heard it.  He is so popular it is unavoidable.  "I believe I could fly" was like the graduation national anthem.

 

So I guess were are on the same side of this issue @Pioneer1 albeit, as usual, for different reasons. ;)

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I read the article.  Again it still seems like a lot of accusations.  Of course where there is smoke there is usually a fire. But it sounds like like a guy who was abused himself that needs help too.  I'm not about to rob the brother of his livelihood because he married Aaliyah when she was 15 or allegedly urinated on some girl.  There are more important things to worry about.

 

The argument that R Kelly gets away with it because the victims are Black is bullshit, white women are victimized everyday of the week by white men who get away with it -- some of them with the support of the church!  Should look at all the dudes in NAMBLA, the Catholic Church, Penn States campus, etc  R; Kelly is nothing in comparison...

 

Indeed R. Kelly is highlighted ONLY because he is a celebrity, there are plenty of Brothers doing similar things with teenage girls.

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An underage harem may be a bit hyperbolic, but for someone of his wealth this is not a big thing.  Hugh Hefner had one; the age discrepancy was much larger and he was celebrated.  Michael Jackson allegedly courted young boys and vert few called for muting him.

 

Look man, for MOST of human history 14 year old girls were making babies.  Now if you told me Kelly was banging babies I'd have a serious problem. 

 

Do YOU @Delano believe Kelly should be muted?  I'm surprised o no other than me voted in your poll.  I think lurkers can vote without creating an account, but I'm not sure.

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It's am anonymous poll. Apparently he has been paying off the girls. There's a lawyer in Chicago that handles the case. R. Kelly needs help but so do yhe parents who let there parents hang with a grown man. Our society has a skewed values. When parents are pimping their kids.

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"Age Ain’t Nothing But a Number," the 1994 debut from R&B singer Aaliyah, was co-produced by Kelly ... a track he had written for her. Kelly was 27, Aaliyah was 15. In a 1994 interview she called him her “best friend in the whole wide world”, and in August year they were married at a Chicago suburb Sheraton with a forged marriage certificate falsely stating Aaliyah was 18. Divorce proceedings began two days later when her family learned of the wedding. The marriage was annulled by fall. Aaliyah received $100 from Kelly as part of a settlement also stating she would not pursue legal action and neither would publicly discuss the matter (Kelly has long denied the pair had a sexual relationship). The song went platinum. Aaliyah was died eight years later. 

 

I'm a jazz and blues kind of guy, even in those music genre's underage female sensitivities come forth. Nothing new, and probably harmless in the sense of 'redeeming values,' so to speak. In Kelly's case the marriage, with or without PAPER, is acceptable; and his music pose no dangers. It does, however, go right to the idea of parent rearing children, like the brother alluded to. Again, these are the times we live in, and everyone's justifying their part.

 

For us males, sexual indulgence has always been a selective process when it is convenient for us, even before the turn of the 11th century. To place a time on the demonization of the sex issue is quite mis-placed. 

 

At a time when an 80-year Bill Cosby is facing a prison sentence (involving adult women) that may never see him a man free again, this discussion is appropriate. 

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In many states it is perfectly legal for a 15 year old to get married. Maybe IL is not one of those states or maybe they require parental consent.

 

In FL you can marry your 15 year old 1st cousin.  But these laws come from a period when a person's world, were they were born and died, was a maybe a 50 mile perimeter, and you life expectancy was 40.

 

True, our society has skewed values and it is the reason why people pimp their children and themselves.

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Half your age plus 9 years. So the only person that should be sleeping with a 16 year old is a 17 year old.

What's your cut off for teenagers?

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Del

 

 

Half your age plus 9 years. So the only person that should be sleeping with a 16 year old is a 17 year old.

What's your cut off for teenagers?

 

 


I've also heard "half your age plus 7" for an ideal mate.

I'm not sure about those old sayings.

I say go with who compliments you.....or with NO ONE at all.
Some people are asexual and aren't sexually attracted to anyone, others are free spirits and simply just aren't good at relationships.
They're happier and better off alone.

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What about emotional maturity? 

If you're over 20 why are you with someone in high school. 

Even adults lose their  $h!t when it comes to sex. Wars were literally fought over vagina. Yeah physically a girl could be ready but that doesn't mean she can handle it emotionally. 

The problem is potential  mental manipulation. With Rob. Kelly it appears to be actualized  

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Delano


 

The problem is potential mental manipulation. With Rob. Kelly it appears to be actualized


Mental manipulation......like emotional maturity....is a highly subjective term.


First of all, it could be argued that everytime a man tries to convince a woman to have sex with him he's "manipulating" her mind or atleast attempting to.

Secondly, IS mental manipulation for sex wrong in and of itself?
And if manipulating a woman's mind to have sex is wrong PERIOD, then wouldn't it be just as wrong to do to GROWN WOMEN as  to underaged girls?


Third, what approaches then SHOULD a man take to get sex from females that would be considered UNIVESALLY APPROPRIATE?

 

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None of what I said matters of the primary objective for a man is having sex. The women and her feelings or needs are incidental. In which case she is a sex object. Or her former follow her functional value. Clearly that's not my position but it may be closer to at least some people's reality. 

Manipulation Seduction Coercion of you see it differently there could be various difficulties. 

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I believe for most men, while their view of sex and it's function doesn't change much.....their views of women in general tend to CHANGE with age and experience.

While a 20 year old man may see women and categorize them as either women he WANTS to have sex with or women he DOES NOT want to have sex with....e.i. "sex objects"....and treat them accordingly.

That same man at 50 may see women and categorize them as either his daughter, his wife or woman he would enjoy sex with, his sister, or his mother......and treat them accordingly.



He still wants sex, but his maturity and the experiences he's had has made sex less of a factor in defining the women he meets.

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@Pioneer1, there you go again projecting your values and beliefs onto those of the general population.  What about a man that wants to simply had]ve a woman as a friend?

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WELL, brother Troy, unfortunately, IT IS the 'physical attraction' thing that first bring the sexes together. Among most males that is; except for women. A woman's priority is maternally related. of course! She is a mother or potential mother whose natural maternal instincts defines her character and motivation. That's PART of what make a woman far more dangerous than males. They are doer's who think first as opposed to us males who, often, do before we think.

 

You bother, and Black men who think like you are the ones who put equality in humanity, among the sexes. Though the friendship thing usually leads to physical thing, I, like you settle for only friendship with a woman whom I like, including even my wife. That makes for a more nurturing interaction.

 

Societal patriarchal White men, and Black who adapt to those ideas attempt to hide behind the façade of age and "men will be men" which is actually the most perverse of perversity. Just ask Bill Cosby – how he feels now that his unlimited male freedom has been checked – about his one-sided objective approach to the opposite sex; and how a subjective (friendship) approach might have made his desire more settled.

 

Great point, brother, thank you!! 

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On ‎5‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 12:56 PM, Troy said:

@Pioneer1, there you go again projecting your values and beliefs onto those of the general population.  What about a man that wants to simply had]ve a woman as a friend?


So you're saying older men still wanting sex from women is simply a projection of MY values and beliefs?

I guess all those older men who go to bars and clubs and dating sites looking for women weren't actually interested in sex, but are just looking for drinking buddies with high pitched voices.....lol.

I wonder what Donald Trump's REAL intentions were for all of those women he's been chasing around.....lol.

 

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Yes, because you are saying that you, "45," and the boys you hang out with in the club are typical Black men.

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When I say Pioneer is "projecting" I mean to say that he is taking is world view and assuming it is the same shared by others.  Does that answer your question Del?

 

Pioneer I suspect not even YOU want sex from the women you meet.  Surely, you must have female friends that you not contemplating screwing, right?  

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Can we ever describe anyone else's experience. I think we can't which means any ideas we have about the world are our ideas about our own world's. Which is why I say there aren't any objective truths. 

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Del, experiences are one thing, ideas are quite another. One's experiences and the interpretation of them are subjective; some people find getting spanked erotic others find it humiliating.

 

With regard to Pioneer I'm talking about ideas. For example the idea that 20 year olds access women solely on whether they are a desirable sex partner. That, I'm sure, the way he viewed women at that age; and he takes that perspective and assumes it must be true for every 20 year old.

 

Of course there probably a lot of 20 year olds who think that way.  But I doubt it's the majority (did you think about women that way when you were 20 Del?) 

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@Troy

Think about what I am saying. How many views do you hold that aren't based on your experience. The view could support or be in opposition to your experience. If the view supportstory you are taking your experience and saying it applies generally. If it doesn't it could be an ideal that you strive for in your life. 

 

Even imaginary or unreal ideas and concepts are a function of experience. 

The only thing that isn't like that would be the invention of string or keyboard instruments. Since percussive wind and brass mimic sounds in nature.

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Dude I have thought about what you wrote.  Many of the ideas in mind head are not based upon my experience.  These ideas, often the most profound ones, come from reading.  For example, my belief in a single human race is derived completely from information outside my own experience.  If I used my own experience, like Pioneer and perhaps yourself, I would still believe in multiple races.

 

If your only source of information is your personal experience can not assimilate new information, not an you grow.

 

This is not to say that I don't have my own ideas, based upon experiences, like my stance on Google and social media. Now I know my perspective is in the minority so when the journalist at 60 Minutes substantiated my ideas I feel justified in running with them.  If the broadcast refuted everything I wrote.  I would be forced to reconsider.  I'm perfectly open to doing this, when the preponderance of evidence is against me.

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@Troy: That's an impressive, well thought-out assessment of your osmotic and empirical way of absorbing information. For distinguishing between what you know and what you learn. Unfortunately, most people do not understand the difference. 

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How do you read a book without having the experience of reading the book.

 

Everything you do is part of your experience. Sometimes reading can profoundly change your behavior like Malcolm X

I likedon't what you wrote except the criticism of Pioneer. It's like you are putting him down to highlight your point.  You may not mean it that way. And if Pioneer doesn't see it as a put down then I am projecting my methods on to you. 

 

I'll ask you a question later to demonstrate what I am trying to say.

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Yes! You get it now Del, because I'm not putting Pioneer down. 

 

If one disagrees with someone, the expression of why they disagree is not a "put down."  Putting someone down is an ineffective way to make a point.

 

Kalexander2 thanks.  Though you may be right, I don't know about "most people" being in that category. I do know most people i regularly converse with are not.

 

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How can you discuss something much less think about something that is non experiential. 

Like being pregnant or another person or a cat. 

Even with imagination it's a function of our life. 

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Troy

 

For example, my belief in a single human race is derived completely from information outside my own experience. If I used my own experience, like Pioneer and perhaps yourself, I would still believe in multiple races.


((sigh))

Well.......

Thanks for confirming what I already suspected for months now.

As long as I disagree with you over YOUR concept and definition of race....that disagreement will "taint" almost every interaction you have with me despite the subject.

I didn't want to believe this was true, I really didn't.
But it's becoming more and more clear with every discussion.

Even when I've purposely tried to avoid discussing the issue with you to prevent further disagreement.....it's still on your mind.




Del

I don't think you should waste your time trying to explain to Troy something he already knows.

He understands clearly what I said and probably agrees with it to a certain extent.
He's just being contrary because of our differing stances on a totally seperate issue......the race issue.

....which is a bit disappointing.

 

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Again, @Pioneer1 it is not my concept of race.  It is the culmination of a long period of scientific research including sequencing the human genome, whose conclusions I've read and and choose to believe and that is the point.

 

You and @Delano put a lot more weight on your personal experiences and gut feelings.  I'm not about to dismissed the entire scientific community's research simply because I can't wrap my brain around it.  The same goes for climate change, the correction of newtonian law of gravity with general relativity, etc. 

 

Pioneer I'm not trying to belabor the point with you and your disbelief of a single race.  But it is just the simplest and clearest example to illustrate your way of thinking that others reading this, without the benefit of our years of exchange, can readily understand (whether they agree with me or not).

 

But to use your line of reasoning; the reason I disagree with your assertion that men only view women as potential sex partners is because I'm a man and I don't view women that way.

 

 

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Troy

 

 

But to use your line of reasoning; the reason I disagree with your assertion that men only view women as potential sex partners is because I'm a man and I don't view women that way.


Lol....
You're not using my line of reasoning, because my reasoning involves ACCURACY.

I never said that men only view women as potential sex partners.
Infact, for older men I said quite the opposite.


I'm not amazed that you disagree with my position.
I'm just amazed at how ZEALOUS you seem in opposing it and how you've seemingly held it against me either openly or subtly in almost every discussion since the disagreement developed.

It's frightening that you would disregard YOUR OWN experiences in life simply to align your beliefs with that of the mainstream scientific community.

You simply refuse to even entertain the idea that atleast some of what may be called "science" may actually be a collection of propaganda and opinions based.....not on what is actually true....but based on the agenda of whatever wealthy special interest group funded the research.

Remember, during it's later years slavery was also justified by "science" for obvious reasons.

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