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Delano

Queen Bey and empowerment

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As long as Beyonce continues to sport blonde weaves, she contributes FAR more to the problem than she does to the solution......in my opinion.

Despite the rhetoric coming out of her mouth, her many years of wearing straight BLONDE hair does more to empower WHITE WOMEN and epitomize them as the standard of beauty than anything else.

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20 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

As long as Beyonce continues to sport blonde weaves, she contributes FAR more to the problem than she does to the solution......in my opinion.

@Pioneer1Well, there's something to be said for judging people by their good deeds, rather than their appearance.  Beyonce doing what countless other female celebrities from all ethnicities do to their hair, is no worse than your advocacy of polygamy - because it has African roots.  

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I don't promote polygamy just because of it's African origins, although that's an added benefit. 
I promote it because it's more natural than monogamy for most men and it discourages men from lying to and deceiving women.

As far as Beyonce-

Her promoting unattainable....and quite frankly GENETICALLY RECESSIVE.....beauty standards to Black girls and ruining their self esteem as well as further brainwashing Black boys to find White women more attractive does FAR more harm than that little money she donates.

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@Delano that huffpo article stems from a Sun article from 2016 https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/1176905/exposed-sweatshop-slaves-earning-just-44p-an-hour-making-empowering-beyonce-clobber/

 

The Sun a British equivalent of the New York Post, is a step above the Inquirer (barely). It is fascinating just how many outlets have written articles on the Sun's article -- quoting sources 2nd hand even huffpo failed to link directly to the source article. 

 

In other words this is all gossip. 

 

Do I think Bey would use slave labor for her clothing line. Sure, but I don't think she is involved in that level of decision making. 

 

While I don't agree with judging people based upon their looks. I agree more with @Pioneer1's assessment of Bey setting the a eurocentric standard for beauty that does not serve Black people... but I would not be surprised if she were not involved in the decision making for her own look.

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@Pioneer1Well, if you're going to generalize about why polygamy is innate when it comes to black males, i will observe that not all black women are trying to look like Beyonce!  It you would bring yourself up to date, you would look around and see that just as many black women are currently using their hair to make a statement, and  they wear it in natural styles or opt for natural looking extensions.  In fact, most black women alternate their hair choices, because - that's what fashion and glamour are all about. And it's not like African tribal women don't powder their woolly black hair with red henna and other colorful shades.

 

  @Troy@Pioneer1The fact that Beyonce is a successful, independent woman is certainly what inspires all black women.  She does it her way and more power to her. She refers to her on-stage persona as "Sasha Fierce".  At home with her 3 kids, she is Mrs Shawn Carter and is seen wearing her hair in its natural state which is shoulder length, wavy, and brownish in color. (The pop culture vulture accepts your thanks for this pertinent information.)

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On 8/3/2018 at 11:57 PM, Pioneer1 said:

Her promoting unattainable....and quite frankly GENETICALLY RECESSIVE.....beauty standards to Black girls and ruining their self esteem as well as further brainwashing Black boys to find White women more attractive does FAR more harm than that little money she donates.

 

@Pioneer1I have to sat that I do absolutely agree to this statement, but for now, I choose to overlook it--Passover it--- [1] because this is a sickness that I believe is plaguing the whole of us and some of us choose to exit this while others pretend they do, but find other clever ways to still promote White Supremacy, and [2] I anyone does anything positive to highlight Black suppression, the dark under world strikes with serious intent to undermine the work. 

 

Beyonce will have a problem with this issue because, well, have you seen her mother!? She may be like  A CREOLE or something to that affect. And so, Beyonce's issues are rooted in Europe with this old culture of White Slupremacy in 'Black---light skinned--- face'.  I think Beyonce's mother's name may be GISELLE, this name has xome history to it. In connection with this name, I have seen Jay Z wear a double cross, and so, I am presently doing to deep reserch on THE HUNGARIAN history as it is linked the history of the Seljuk Turks and etc.    

19 hours ago, Cynique said:

Well, if you're going to generalize about why polygamy is innate when it comes to black males,

 

@Cynique  @Pioneer1MOst Black women and MUslim women tht I have heard do NOT like poligamy!

 

 

 

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Troy

 

 

While I don't agree with judging people based upon their looks. I agree more with @Pioneer1's assessment of Bey setting the a eurocentric standard for beauty that does not serve Black people... but I would not be surprised if she were not involved in the decision making for her own look.


I'm sure like most celebrities she has "handlers" who are directing her public image and every move both on and off the cameras.

Infact, like you infer....I'd be willing to entertain that she probably doesn't mean any harm in her choice of hair style. But ignorance is no excuse nor does it lessen the damage her "brand" is doing to the self esteem of not only most Black girls but also to the sexual preferences to most Black boys.

But her "handlers" do.....they understand fully.
Which is why they're using HER to push their agenda to maintain White standards of beauty.


 

 



Cynique

if you're going to generalize about why polygamy is innate when it comes to black males, i will observe that not all black women are trying to look like Beyonce! It you would bring yourself up to date, you would look around and see that just as many black women are currently using their hair to make a statement, and they wear it in natural styles or opt for natural looking extensions. In fact, most black women alternate their hair choices, because - that's what fashion and glamour are all about. And it's not like African tribal women don't powder their woolly black hair with red henna and other colorful shades.


You're mixing apples with collard greens.

A man's choice of having multiple lovers is based in biology that is being SUPPRESSED by European cultural standards that were forced on us.
This is no comparison to the fact that a Black woman's desire to have blonde hair was MANUFACTURED in her from childhood (not nature or biology) through repetative brainwashing by the images forced upon her in the media and entertainment (e.i...Beyonce).

Further.....
The tribal women who put henna in their hair are doing it for STRICTLY DECORATIVE purposes with no self-destructive undertones.
They were probably doing it before they knew White people existed.

On the other hand, Black women in a White society who dye their hair blonde are doing it in part to BE CLOSER TO WHITE in hopes to be seen as more beautiful.





Chev

I've seen Beyonce's mother Tina and yes she's light skinned with long hair.
But her father is a darker Black man with kinky hair.
My problem isn't with her STRAIGHT hair so much as it's with her dying her hair BLONDE which is an obvious attemp to associate herself with White standards of beauty.
If her hair were just bone straight, perhaps an argument could be made.
But once you go BLONDE.....the matter is clear.

But speaking of Beyonce's father.....
I read somewhere where he ADMITTED that he had a preference for light skinned women.
Perhaps this mindset had atleast some effect on Beyonce and the decisions she's made in her life.

 

 


As far as polygamy.
I'm sure a lot of women DON'T like the idea of sharing a man.
But if we look at the AfroAmerican community today, I've met many many more women who don't like the idea of being SINGLE and ALONE with no man at all to help them or love them.
Infact, many women are actually SHARING men already......but the men are MARRIED and the wives don't know about it.
But they're still willing to share him in order to get some love from him and help get her bills paid.

Say what we will about the Africans and Muslims, but their system has maintained them for hundreds and thousands of years.
AfroAmericans have been attempting to maintain the Western monogamous model for the past 400 years and the family structure has pretty much COLLAPSED for the vast majority.

 

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1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

You're mixing apples with collard greens.

A man's choice of having multiple lovers is based in biology that is being SUPPRESSED by European cultural standards that were forced on us.
This is no comparison to the fact that a Black woman's desire to have blonde hair was MANUFACTURED in her from childhood (not nature or biology) through repetative brainwashing by the images forced upon her in the media and entertainment (e.i...Beyonce).

Nope.  They're both in the collard greens category because they are both opinions.  You insist on  stating your unproven theories as fact.  There is no scientific proof for your bogus claims about polygamy as it relates to African Americans. 

 

  

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"...help get their bills paid..."

 

Is seems to me there are more men struggling to pay their own bills, let alone help pay the bills of a women -- or multiple female lovers.

 

Prostitution, Tinder, sex clubs abound to grease the wheels of the hook up, quickie, and uncommitted sexual encounter culture.  However mature adults (men and women) are looking for more than just sex from a partner -- they are looking for a friend and supporter.  This may just be me talking, but as a dude in my mid 50's the prospect of having sex with a bunch of different women is not as appealing as it may have been 30 years ago...

 

The prospect of people only having sex with one person, that they are married to, for the entire life seems unnatural -- this is almost common sense; given actual human behavior.  I'm not saying polygamy is natural, but it is surely more natural than monogamy.  But given that there are slightly more women than men both men and women would need to be polygamous for this to work out -- otherwise someone is being exploited.

 

Since we were raised, in this culture, to aspire to lifelong monogamy with someone you are actually in love with, we are not culturally or psychologically prepared to deal with polygamous behavior... but this is changing.

 

There has been a lot of discussion about this subject recently, particularly as if becomes obvious that one person can not possibly provide all the emotional and physical needs another may need.

 

Because Black women were raped by their owners Black Americans now come in every shade of the human spectrum --  we are unique in this regard and are susceptible to colorism that marketers take advantage of. When light skinned Black women with blonde hair are is elevated it causes self esteem issues for many of your young women.  

 

The reality is that Bey does not even look like her public persona, but young women don't see that... She is a product of our system -- which has never served Black people.  It is it not Bey it would be some other sister...

 

The notion that Bey should be tied with "empowerment" is problematic, from my perspective, for these and many other reasons. 

 

Our biggest problem is that we have been programed, by marketers, to look to entertainers as our role models. 

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Are black women ever going to get past being preached to about a lack of self esteem being what motivates them to adopt European standards of appearance? This has been going on for over 50 years  dating back to the “black is beautiful” movement of the 60s.   Inasmuch as critics are still carping about this issue, it would seem their scoldings are having little impact.  So maybe we should look at the situation with a new set of eyes. Consider that, as descendants of slaves and members of a hybrid breed who have assimilated enough into the mainstream of this country to represent their personal version of what is considered fashionable and attractive, black woman are entitled to do what all other women do. Be in style.  How detrimental is this?  "Vanity, thy name is woman."
 
Maybe  judgmental black men should stop wearing Armani, and Hugo Boss and Ralph Lauren, and Men's Warehouse merchandise.  Stop dousing themselves with cologne and playing golf. After all, these are trappings associated with the white western male.  Perhaps brothas should think about going barefoot as opposed to sporting exorbitantly priced athletic shoes made in sweat shops. Stop buying white-manufactured expensive rides that apparently elevate their self esteem when seen cruising around with white Beckys in the passenger seat - yet another self-esteem booster. Self-indulgent African American men have to be among the most European-influenced people around, yet black sistas have been singled out to tow the line and expected to generate  an undying  love for their hard-to-tame hair  in order to elevate their self esteem.  What a monumental effect doing so will have on combating racism 
 
It would be more constructive to reprimand  black females for having more out-of-wed lock children than they can properly raise, a result of oversexed black bucks indulging their innate promiscuity... and speaking of  polygamy, what is the proof that a "variety is the spice of life" attitude about women is more natural to blacks than other "races".  Were black playas  in the slave quarters  worse than their horny white masters ravishing black women?  Was "jumpin' the broom" just something to do while eye-ballin another nubile Nubian at the ceremony? What a brutish bunch black men would seem to be, and how proud some are of what they associate with male sexual prowess, while smugly relegating white men to the ranks of  wimpy cold fish  - choosing to ignore the lusty legions of them who raped the world. 
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Of course @Cynique falling prey to marketers is not a Black male or female thing -- it is both.  The idea that Black men pay hundreds of dollars for a pair of sneakers that cost a few dollars to make is ridiculous.  But this too is a subject that has been beaten to death since Air Jordans topped $100 a pair a generation ago. Today sneakers are selling on the secondary market for hundreds of dollars a pair.  Our own @CD Burns has made quite a bit of money in this space.

 

I've previously lamented the fact that men are now getting their eyebrows arched and sitting in the salons longer than women getting their hair "did."  It is not about criticizing women it's about criticizing the whole system. 

 

However, in this case, the topic of discussion that @Delano raised was "Queen Bey and empowerment." which is why we are talking about women.  If you want to start a conversation about how men are manipulated into behaviors that don't serve us have at it, indeed I'll join in the fun.

 

But the idea I find it hard to believe is that you would completely reject the notion that Black women are influenced by eurocentric standards of beauty to their detriment. This is tantamount to putting your head in the sand.

 

We all know little Black girls still see the Blond haired blued eyed doll as being prettier!  So if Black women want to run around in Blond wigs and call it empowerment fine, but be prepared for our people to see their nappy black hair in ugly and inferior.

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On 8/5/2018 at 12:41 PM, Pioneer1 said:

I read somewhere where he ADMITTED that he had a preference for light skinned women.

 

Yes, I really appreciate you saying this because it's been my experience that many Black people especially Black men skirt past this issue on how it affects us on a deeper level as you have laid out. And, I agree that Beyonce's wearing blonde weaves is putting out a negative message, but again, this issue is so prevalent. White society elevates certain people of color to keep this beauty standard ongoing. 

 

Yes, that's right too, her mother's name is Tina. But I knew that i heard that name 'Giselle' and so, I googled and realized that Miss Tina named her daughter, BEYONCE with this name! LOL! That's Beyonce's middle name. And so, yes, Miss Tina is light skinned and so, not only does the father push this beauty ideology but obviously so does the mother as well. But too, I feel that when ever someone tries to stand up for something really wrong as it applies to AfroAmericans, they are going to be attacked, and so, I am just not going to go at Beyonce. 

On 8/5/2018 at 12:41 PM, Pioneer1 said:

But if we look at the AfroAmerican community today, I've met many many more women who don't like the idea of being SINGLE and ALONE with no man at all to help them or love them.

 

@Pioneer1 yes, and I believe you are right about this issue but nevertheless, it is wrong to destroy someones trust. If a woman agrees beforehand, that is one aspect, but if a woman does not choose to share, then, this should be respected. 

 

On 8/5/2018 at 12:41 PM, Pioneer1 said:

Say what we will about the Africans and Muslims, but their system has maintained them for hundreds and thousands of years.

 

No I don't believe that you are connecting the dots so-to-speak here. History does not show this issue works at all, based on my research. 

On 8/5/2018 at 12:41 PM, Pioneer1 said:

AfroAmericans have been attempting to maintain the Western monogamous model for the past 400 years and the family structure has pretty much COLLAPSED for the vast majority.

 

This can't be right, because if we go as far back in history as we can, it was the Black African man that was first in all aspects regarding marriages being monogamous or polygamous. To look at this issue as monogamous relationships being forced upon us by the western ideals would be partially true, but to base it on 'a model'-- What model?

 

The rapes and divorce rate in the history of the western civilization is not a model. 

 

But going back to my point about history, just about every civilization, Black AFrican, that is, actually was doomed due to this very issue! If you look at the end results, many of the ancient kings who had many wives, were completely 'done in' for various reasons, and one main reason would be the sons of the women would grow up, and their mothers would conflict viciously over 'whose son would be the next heir to the throne' or 'who would get the inheritance and etc.  And as @Troy touched upon; the issue of COLORISM was many times a major factor in this multiple wives system that always crept up in the way and led to a lot of problems in Black kingdoms. So women may be quiet while their sons grew up and acted as if it was okay when a particular son was named as the heir apparent, but eventually, it became a major conflict.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Troy said:

We all know little Black girls still see the Blond haired blued eyed doll as being prettier!  So if Black women want to run around in Blond wigs and call it empowerment fine, but be prepared for our people to see their nappy black hair in ugly and inferior.

No, we don't all know this to "still" be true. This is what certain black men  prefer to think because you are stuck  in the past and religiously preserve this scenario  because it's dramatic and full of bathos  and repeated so much that has dissolved into the realm of lore.  But the reality is that little black girls - when they do play with dolls, - don't prefer European looking dolls with blond hair and blue eyes anymore.  They choose ones who look like themselves, and these types of dolls are plentiful and popular. Black barbie-type dolls have been around for decades and are a staple in the toy collections of black girls.  The American Doll which is the end-all and be-all in the doll industry market  put out a special addition of a  black doll with caramel skin and thick abundant black hair and, as expensive as it was, was a big seller. Even white manufacturers knew there was a big market for black dolls and capitalized on it.   Look around at all the little black girls nowadays.  They all have corn rows or long braided extension, in the color and texture of their natural hair.  BTW,  few platinum blondes are natural ones. White women are all bottled blonds. Asians and Hispanics also change their hair color.

 

But you guys continue to exaggerate, generalize, and embrace the stereotypes about black females, insisting that not wearing their hair natural dilutes their empowerment, ignoring how money doesn't give a damn about the appearance of who's making and spending it.  In a room full of professional black females, how many of them would have long blond weaves?  Maybe a 1/4  of them. There would be a smattering who would have short bleached-blond  or red AFROS. The rest would have their hair styled in a  variety of ways. These sistas would be in there, styling and taking care of business, not dwelling on something that certain black men are fixated on.   In a country where brown skin and black hair will soon be the majority, white people are who should be worried about perpetuating European standards - and they are.  That's what Trumpism is mostly about.

 

Check out the upcoming issue of VOGUE which was taken over and published exclusively by Beyonce, who even hired a black photographer to do all the shots.  From what has been leaked about this issue, she has revealed a lot of things about her private life, stripped herself bare and has some very interesting things to say on this subject.  

 

And expand on your belief about how black women superficially glamourizing themselves is so detrimental in the changing world of the 21st century.  

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I'm sorry @Cynique, but you may be unaware of the fact that the white/black doll tests were repeated as recently as 2010 with the similar results -- and the stereotypes persist clearly into adulthood. "We are still living in a society where dark things are devalued and light things are valued."  I, of course, don't have to tell you what white children believe...

 

And don't get me started on the adverse impact of Barbie on Black women and their body image.  

 

I'm not generalizing or exaggerating.  I'm also not saying that all women are running around in straight Blond wigs or that even all of these hate their Blackness -- but surely you must see that some women are and that the impact is real and worthy of being addressed. 

 

Fortunately it is being addressed, as more Black women embrace hair styles and are "glamorizing" themselves in ways that are not based on eurocentric standards of beauty.  But we are clearly not out of the woods.

 

You tout Beyonce's control of Vogue's cover as if it was the pinnacle of Black achievement... and this is my point.  Would you (or the media) be making as big a deal of this if Bey had taken artistic control of Ebony's cover or whatever Black owned magazines are left?  

 

Personally I'm not impressed that Bey is taking control of Vogue or that she got a Black man an assignment.  I'll celebrate when we react the same way when it is a Black owned magazine getting that shine -- that is what Black empowerment really means. 

 

 

 

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It can't be a racial issue Troy because race doesn't exist, or did you forget your own position. 

Is it cultural identity envy or maybe wanting some power and money. 

I want to be like Barbie that b!+# has everything 

Identities or what people identify with is a fiction 

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@TroyOK. Obviously, my feeling is that the role of black hair in our society is much ado about nothing.  To me,  it is a superficial issue inasmuch as a woman's hair style, for whatever reason, has nothing to do  with her innate ability to accomplish what she is capable of.  Hair is just a blip in the black radar and has little to do with combating racism. I think that anybody who figures out a way to surmount racism is far more admirable than a black woman  who decides to wear her hair natural because this makes her feel like she is honoring her ties to the continent whose tribesmen were among those who sold her ancestors into slavery - the same ancestors who were creative enough to figure out a way to make their hair more manageable, an art which became a part of their indigenous African-American culture. 

 

And as i previously contended, black women have evolved and assimilated enough into the dominant mainstream culture to wear their hair anyway they please without having their self-esteem questioned. And their skin color is actually an accessory to all the other accoutrements of style.  Self-esteem, itself,  is a blurred issue.  You talked about the folly of everyone on a little league team receiving a trophy because to do otherwise would harm the self-esteem of the little darlings on the losing team.  Self-esteem comes from within, not without and it rises once a person goes out into the real world and proves one's self. It can't simply be handed out to  the unproven by those with  questionable  intentions. 

 

And once again I say that the same ones bemoaning black  hair choices come up with all kinds of rationales and excuses for single black women's  unchecked breeding of children, especially fatherless male ones  who grow up to become the work force of the notorious prison industry.  If these critics were as concerned about the dire ramifications of  the baby-mama/baby-daddy culture as they are about synthetic hair, maybe I'd be impressed.

 

As for Beyonce, i am not a rabid fan of hers or her music, but i give credit where credit is due, something you have steadfastly declined to do. Her VOGUE take-over is a feat that broke down racial barriers while reaching a wide audience. That's empowerment and her hair played only a minor role in this.   A spread in a black magazine amounts to little more than preaching to the choir.  

 

3 hours ago, Delano said:

It can't be a racial issue Troy because race doesn't exist, or did you forget your own position. 

Is it cultural identity envy or maybe wanting some power and money. 

I want to be like Barbie that b!+# has everything 

Identities or what people identify with is a fiction 

This is true because White, Hispanic and Asian women are just as prone to this behavior as black ones are. Wanting to emulate a paragon transcends "race". 

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@Delano you know very well that there is no scientific basis for race, but that the social construct of "race" is alive and well. You know there is a difference right?  Seriously, why waste our time playing games, while Cynique and I are engaged in a serious discussion?

 

Sure @Cynique, in the infinite scheme of things what an individual woman chooses to do with the stuff on the top of her head means nothing.  However this is just one manifestation of the multifaceted, relentless, and multi-generational assault against Black culture, people, and institutions.  As a result, I'm not a proponent of trying the solve the problem of racism by going after the symptoms of the problem. Snatching the Blond extensions out of every woman head won't do a damn thing to eliminate white racism and the marketers who exploit it.

 

You did not express your feelings on, or explain, why Black kids still see white dolls as smarter, nicer, and just damn better.  I'm curious to read what you think given you did not think it was still true.

 

Breaking down racial barriers is overrated.  Bey being on the cover of Vogue will not save a single Black owned magazine nor enrich anyone other than Queen Bey and her photographer.   

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Troy

 

So if Black women want to run around in Blond wigs and call it empowerment fine, but be prepared for our people to see their nappy black hair in ugly and inferior.


Excellent!

And this was the point I've been basically making.



Chev

I'm not sure what system will work then.

I say we should allow for BOTH polygamy and monogamy as well as celibacy for those who choose.
But if you're saying that polygamy wouldn't work and we can clearly SEE that monogamy isn't working in our community.....then the question is what WILL work?

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@TroyWell, in the video i saw the black kids were just as prejudiced  against white kids as white kids were against them. So how bad can their self-esteem be?  i was, however, struck by  how one  little black girl used the term "light-skinned" instead of "white" when she referred to one of the figures.  "Light-skinned" is a black term used to refer to other blacks.  So her answer takes on different implications.  

 

Were you expecting me to be surprised by the results?  Didn't i just write an essay absurdly suggesting that what black folks need to do to solve their problems is to find a way to change the color of their skin? Like i said, my argument with you and Pioneer was about your over-emphasis on hair. 

 

America is what it is. and blacks are who they are. Time and time again, i remind that this country is not Utopia. It a white-controlled society dominated by institutionalized racism and it is not interested in sharing the power with its black minority.  To continue implying that blacks would excel if only they acted  like Africans instead of Europeans remains to be seen. and is a waste of time.  It has also been established over and over that blacks are not a monolithic group, which is why i have no problem with individuals among them doing their own thing, using their skill-sets and talents to work The System to their advantage. More power to them. As for Beyonce,  i think she rocks.  She's an inspiration to ambitious black women. 

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17 hours ago, Troy said:

Fortunately it is being addressed, as more Black women embrace hair styles and are "glamorizing" themselves in ways that are not based on eurocentric standards of beauty.  But we are clearly not out of the woods.

 

Yes, I believe this issue still needs to be addressed. HOwever, I feel that if Beyonce and other Black women choose to wear blonde weaves or European type hairstyles, today, it is not as intense as it was decades ago in the negative sense of being an inferiority complex . I see a lot of Black women with afros and have dyed blonde hair.  

 

17 hours ago, Troy said:

but surely you must see that some women are and that the impact is real and worthy of being addressed. 

 

 

 

But however, this is some of my own experiences with this issue of Black women [and Brown] that have frustrated me on this issue of 'Black hair' being viewed as Bad Hair:

My husband and I were sitting in the kitchen with our baby who was about 11 months old and his mother was at the stove but turned around and said to my husband, 

"He aint gonna have hair like Papa". Then my husband said to his mother, "Mom, what do you mean? So what?" Then she said,

"Well, I am just saying, he ain't gonna have hair like Papa, that's all."

And then about four years later, my husband and I were in the back seat of one of his older sisters, and as she was driving us to the store, she glanced over her shoulder at me, and said, 

"I wouldn't be caught dead with my hair like that." [I wore my hair natural, and it was alot at that time] My husband said nothing. But weeks later, I asked my husband did his sister always relax her hair, and he said H**l no. She wore a TWA during the 70s. And there is much more to this story but, right now today, this subject is always a topic on both sides of my family just about everytime we come together.  Even though my husband's mother has nappy hair and all of her children have nappy hair, she was looking to see if her grandchildren have 'hair like her husband', my father-in-law. 

And my own mother made some words on this same wise. My aunt said one day just last year, that she had naturally straight hair like her mother,  and after a moment of silence, I just couldn't bare it, so as her daughter [my cuz] was sitting there practically daring me to say otherwise, I said, "Auntie, I remember your picture when you came to visit us years ago, and you had an afro." Well, again, there was silence, until someone decided to change the subject. So, it's my experience that the subject of 'good hair' and 'bad hair' is still very prevalent. 

 

@Troy That video you posted was painful to watch.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

then the question is what WILL work?

 

 

 

@Pioneer1 I agree with you in that people should choose what they want.  But, I also think that presently the world is going through a process and this issue is being worked out by and by to the affect that eventually, there will be an existence in which positive relationships amongst people will exhibit a peaceful interchange. But today, this is difficult to achieve due to an evil intent to cause discord. 

 

I also think that we are confused today because we don't know of a time on earth where relationships were peaceful continually. We have been conditioned to view relationships today based on the modern mankind, and we are limited to this aspect. Gender uniqueness today was not the same a long time ago and so many people today believe that men should have many wives or women, people should have same sex intimate relationships, woman should be accepted to have many husbands or men, inter-racial relationships should be acceptable, and etc.  

 

WHO SET THE LAW? WHO SETS THE RULES? And why do we have so many break ups that the court has to decide? 

HOw should children be conditioned towards acceptable intimate relationships?

Will there be a time in the future in which Gender specificity changes in terms of the human body?

 

A long time ago during ancient civilizations, it doesn't seem like men and women reproduced as much as couples do today? And this issue, 'reproduction' is a major aspect of relationships too in many regards. It amazes me now that, based on my choices, I have caused reproduction, and my offspring could go on to reproduce. What if I cause a future Hitler to be born? But then what if I cause a future Imhotep to be born, live and become renown for good deeds? 

 

I don't think that we are conditioned to recognize accountablity as much as it was regarded in the past. But I think that self control is the key to individual peace. So, if a person feels that they can control, maintain and exist within peaceful multiple relationship then, it is a choice. 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 8/8/2018 at 12:21 AM, Cynique said:

This is what certain black men  prefer to think because you are stuck  in the past and religiously preserve this scenario  because it's dramatic and full of bathos  and repeated so much that has dissolved into the realm of lore.

 

@Cynique  Yes!  This is exactly what I thought when I read this thread... There seems to be a whole black women's narrative accented by  #blackgirlmagic movement that seems to be be passing some brothers by.  The thing is @Troy and @Pioneer1  I can't say if this is caused by your framing what's happening today with whom you are atrracted to, or who's in your comfort zone.  But most of us black women are celebrating our "free-to-be-me" looks. 

The challenge though for any of us to look through a new lens. 

I attempted to look for and see these black women who you say seem to be hating themselves because Beyonce wears blonde wigs and weaves. When I look in the retail stores, the grocery stores, restaurants, on social media, my friends, my daughters' friends, their coworkers; when I travel the world  or in the airports, I don't see any women represented in that narrative you both talk about. 

In fact, if mainstream media is snapshot of our current culture;  the biggest, most profitable issue for fashion editorial magazines is September and here's the covers from the majors.


img_4695.jpg


This is what black women are raving about this month... We have taken over the covers and we are well represented all shades, hair types and body types. etc....  But what excites me even more is these black women featured on the covers are so focused on achieving their best lives ever professionally and personally that it is inspiring black women of all ages but especially our youth... 
 

843afb31-3e68-422c-926d-5df10449446a.jpg

I was fortunate enough to have  TWO stories in this month's EBONY ... I wrote the coverstory for (Natural hair wearing) Peabody-Award winning TV Program creator ISSA RAE and a goals segment featuring  filmmaker Nicole Franklin (page 22)...These women are self-made because they are putting in the work.    So, I could be biased but that old narrative of trying to emulate white folks and europeans is really tired and ancient - because in the words of  Kimberly "Sweet Brown" Wilkins  "Ain't nobody got time for that" 😁

Edited by Mel Hopkins
typos and clarity
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@Mel Hopkins Ebony article, cover story, ad subject are great.  I'm leaving my office right now heading to my local B&N and with fingers crossed hoping I can pick up this issue. I'm also going to subscribe -- congratulations!

 

Now back to the subject at hand... First Mel you should get to NYC more often you'll have no problem finding Black women with Blond hair.  Second, lets not get carried away here: I'm not saying that all Black women who dye their hair Blond are self hating. My ex dyed her hair Blond, but her hair texture was natural and I don't think she was a trying to look white or be like Bey.  You might also try visiting the 'hood, in any major city, and you'll have no trouble finding sisters with blond hair.

 

 

Mel the "#blackgirlmagic movement," (news to me), by passed me because I simply do not use Twitter. I post stuff and react to stuff that I post.  Occasionally, I react to stuff that the few people I follow (like you and Chris) post, but that is it. I think the vast majority of Black men. like me, are completely obvious to the stuff that goes on on twitter -- save 45s tweets that are shoved down our throats by the media.

 

Also, I don't see how the covers support you point? One woman is bald the other hair straight hair. How does this reflect Black empowerment -- save Ebony (which is not a fashion magazine)

 

The point that you ladies are ignoring is the fact (I assume this is not in dispute) that Black women are continually subjected to images of beauty that reflect european standards and this adversely  impacts their self-image -- why is this even up for debate?  Of course I'm not saying that YOU and your educated, urbane ,and sophisticated pals are impacted. But why you can't see that a great many of your sisters are escapes me.  I'm beginning to think it is simply denial.

 

I said that Black children still prefer white dolls.  @Cynique immediately rejected this accused me be of being stuck in the past,  When I showed her recent evidence to support my statement she ignored it -- even when I directly asked about it.... denial.

 

I too have travelled the world and the most stricking thing that I discovered in Nigeria was that most women wore extensions or wigs with bone straight hair.  Skin bleaching creams were prominently displayed in stores!  Why on earth would a Nigerian sister need to bleach her skin?!  @Cynique, @Mel Hopkins I'd be happy to read your explanation for this phenomenon.

 

@Chevdove what is TWA hair style?  Yeah the video was very sad to watch...

 

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19 hours ago, Cynique said:

@TroyWell, in the video i saw the black kids were just as prejudiced  against white kids as white kids were against them. So how bad can their self-esteem be?  i was, however, struck by  how one  little black girl used the term "light-skinned" instead of "white" when she referred to one of the figures.  "Light-skinned" is a black term used to refer to other blacks.  So her answer takes on different implications.  

 

Were you expecting me to be surprised by the results?  Didn't i just write an essay absurdly suggesting that what black folks need to do to solve their problems is to find a way to change the color of their skin? Like i said, my argument with you and Pioneer was about your over-emphasis on hair. 

 

America is what it is. and blacks are who they are. Time and time again, i remind that this country is not Utopia. It a white-controlled society dominated by institutionalized racism and it is not interested in sharing the power with its black minority.  To continue implying that blacks would excel if only they acted  like Africans instead of Europeans remains to be seen. and is a waste of time.  It has also been established over and over that blacks are not a monolithic group, which is why i have no problem with individuals among them doing their own thing, using their skill-sets and talents to work The System to their advantage. More power to them. As for Beyonce,  i think she rocks.  She's an inspiration to ambitious black women. 

@TroyDid you miss this post?  i didn't exactly ignore your question about your 8 year old video about dolls. BTW, in the real world, black kids have always appreciated seeing characters who look like them in the books they read and the movies they watch. Your perspective needs broadening.  

 

@Mel Hopkins Congrats on your EBONY cover!

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3 hours ago, Troy said:

First Mel you should get to NYC more often you'll have no problem finding Black women with Blond hair. 

 

Thank you, for the kudos 😃 @Troy

LOL! Now You know I was based in New York, right?  I covered 3 airports while I was there and took mass transit.  No blond weaves the whole time I was there... None in Houston either (which was surprising)  and most women I saw wore natural hair or gorgeous cuts. in  Chicago.. In fact, I loved getting my hair done in the Chi because they stylist are very talented. 

However this is what I meant by saying it may have a lot to do with who you are attracted to. You may see a lot of women with blond hair because you like it.  However when you post photos from your events there are never women with blond weaves.  As far as the Nigerian women it might have to do with peer groups - in Nigeria.  and again it's a specific group because the upper class Nigerians (the jetsetters) are conservative looking like the large groups of Nigerians in New York and Chicago. Those women are   british conservative to tribal formal for their galas.

Also I don't see any blonds here in Georgia.  Since it's "hair capital" we have everything from   "glam"  to natural.

3 hours ago, Troy said:

Also, I don't see how the covers support you point? One woman is bald the other hair straight hair. How does this reflect Black empowerment -- save Ebony (which is not a fashion magazine)

 

@Troy, that is the point... we are not looking to emulate anyone - we are ourselves.  And by the way, this is EBONY's fashion issue.  (remember Ebony fashion fair 😃

3 hours ago, Troy said:

But why you can't see that a great many of your sisters are escapes me.  I'm beginning to think it is simply denial. 

 

 

I think you're correct, denial is in play.    You believe black women are impacted by european standards. but American women (of european descent)  spend boatloads of money to look like black women... So this would mean you believe black women are brainwashed into looking like european women who try to look like us?   🤣

 

Edited by Mel Hopkins
Closed the dialog box too soon

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3 hours ago, Troy said:

I too have travelled the world and the most stricking thing that I discovered in Nigeria was that most women wore extensions or wigs with bone straight hair.  Skin bleaching creams were prominently displayed in stores!  Why on earth would a Nigerian sister need to bleach her skin?!  @Cynique, @Mel Hopkins I'd be happy to read your explanation for this phenomenon.

 

@TroyWell, maybe if you took off your blinders and relinquished your role as the Great Grand PooBah of how black women are obligated to look, you wouldn't be so frustrated. Perhaps these Nigerian women  appreciate manageable lustrous hair they can flip round because it reminds them of flowing silk instead of immobile wool, and skin color resembling  beaming copper that shows off their face, instead dense onyx which absorbs it. They might  be inspired just as much by Nature as by Europe.  

 

And where is it written, except in your mind, that people have to settle for their looks, if they can change them and become another version of themselves?  Self-esteem has many facets, but you and others want to decree what facet black women are obligated to reflect.  You all think the criteria you want to impose on black women are preferable to European ones, disregarding the complex aesthetics of the female psyche. Furthermore, transforming her appearance can boost a woman's moral enough to improve her effectiveness in other areas of her life. You may be appalled by this idea, - but so what? Whatever the motivation for modifying their looks, since Nigerian woman have not anointed you as their Savior and Redeemer, you'll just have to fall back on the "denial" explanation  you cling to because you can't accept the idea that a woman has to learn to like herself, and it's her prerogative to choose what self she wants to like.  

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"Great Grand PooBah of how black women are obligated to look" LOL!

 

No, @Cynique I not telling, or care, how women, or anyone else for that matters dresses (save the generally accepted standards required in various situations --  for example I don't think boys pants should sagging in school).  You mentioning that the video I posted reflected a study from "8 years" ago was a thinly veiled attempt to suggest that it was ancient history -- do you think anything has changed? 

 

OK lets leave the issue of Black people trying to to achieve a eurocentric standard of beauty alone -- indeed I'll even concede the point. Instead lets follow up on @Mel Hopkins's point of "european women trying to look like us."  I agree with this indeed it is the foundation of my point -- white women are not immune to these pressures.

 

We all know that white women are literally killing themselves trying to look like Black women with butt implants and the lip injections, etc.  Again women, much more so that men, are manipulated by marketers into engaging in behavior as it relates to how they dress and it only causes them harm, or impovershes them.

 

Mel, do you still go out for the evening with the 5" heels, but pack a pair of sensible flats, because you know your feet are going to be hurting before the evening is over?  Women our age are now having foot surgery to repair the damage caused by stupid shoes some white guy invented to make money -- which women buy by the closet full.

 

Elvis Presley used to get his hair poofed up to look like the Black blues men while Black blues men conked their hair to look like white people.  Go figure.

 

I can't believe y'all have never seen sisters with Blond wigs?! I'm going to Jackson MS next weekend and I guarantee I see some sisters with Blond hair and I'm taking photos! LOL!  Mel I see you clearly have never set foot into one of ATL many strip clubs LOL! 

 

Mel, I also went to my local B&N to buy the new issue of Ebony that contains your articles, but they still had the July/August Issue on the stand I'll try later next week,  Poets & Writers had Poet Terrance Hayes on the cover... I brought that.

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16 hours ago, Troy said:

You mentioning that the video I posted reflected a study from "8 years" ago was a thinly veiled attempt to suggest that it was ancient history -- do you think anything has changed? 

The problem i have with this study  as well as the older one is that it placed too much emphasis on how adults interpret children's reactions.  The goal in taking a test to is to "pass" it.  Those being tested, select that answer which they hope is "right" whether it's their opinion or not.Some of these kids seemed rather cautious in their answers. So it's possible that they tell the tester what they think she/he wants to hear. Especially if the tester if white.  And just because a black child points to a dark doll as being ugly or bad or dumb, doesn't necessarily mean the feel that they, themselves, are like that doll.  

 

I really don't think that in the year 2018, black kids are preoccupied with whether white kids are better than they are.  They are more concerned about whether they might get shot by an evil white cop.

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@Cynique that is a good point.  You'll noticed one of the kids "aced" the test by saying they were all equally smart. 

 

However, I'm sure the people who administered the test took these things into account and we only saw a small sample of the students who were questioned.  We just don't have enough information to judge the validity of the study -- at least not without examining all of the data and having the skill set to assess it.

 

I guess the fundamental question here is whether, or not, you believe that Eurocentric standards of beauty influence Black women. Seemingly all the studies and evidence in the world won't change you mind if you do not believe that it does.

 

The notion that Nigerian's use of skim bleaching is merely a desire to achieve, "...skin color resembling  beaming copper that shows off their face, instead dense onyx which absorbs it" Tells me exactly what you believe and how far you'll go to justify that belief to yourself.

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17 hours ago, Troy said:

Mel, do you still go out for the evening with the 5" heels, but pack a pair of sensible flats, because you know your feet are going to be hurting before the evening is over?  Women our age are now having foot surgery to repair the damage caused by stupid shoes some white guy invented to make money -- which women buy by the closet full.

 

@Troy are you in the habit of lumping everyone together based on your experience with a small group?  😲


I have a high arch and high instep so I don't have a problem wearing high heels - yes even at our age.  Now I never wore 5 inches but I can dance all night and have in 4 inches...  I do have an hard time wearing flats for a long time - and if I have to, I rather walk barefoot.    I did find one pair of flats that I could walk in and I bought them for inflight wear. They are Softwalk - cost $100 a pair and worth every penny.  The insole is built up so it fits the natural curve of your foot (if you have one) especially if you have high arch.  I wear Asics sneakers for that reason too.  I had a boyfriend who used to tease me - and say all I needed to do was paint my foot black and no one would never know I wasn't wearing heels.

 

 

Anyway, I offer all of this because I've noticed that you seem to believe (at least based on what you write in this forum) that women lack agency and are easily influenced by everything that is put in front of us.  Based on my experience, I can assure you, women are more influenced by their community of other women -than any marketing ploy.   It's the same for the men who are interested in us.  If they want to be with us - we influence how they look and behave.  It's really all tribal... no invisible hand guiding women to do anything.   


By the way, reports indicate it was men who wore high heels first..😅

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Hey @Mel Hopkins, I don't think I generalize across all people based upon my own experience.  

 

Can you give me an example, in this or any conversation, where I've lumped everyone into a group based upon my own experience?

 

I do not believe all people are equally influenced.  But to suggest that we all (or most of us) are exercising our own agency when all the data and evidence suggests otherwise is to ignoring the obvious.  This is not based my personal experience. 

 

Why do you think Cambridge Analytica was put  out of business? Why are hundred of billions spent on marketing?  Why are people running around yelling "Dilly-dilly?"  Why do you know the ingredients to a Big Mac? Why are millions of people slavishly tied to their mobile devices?  Why did people vote for 45?  Is this evidence our control or being controlled?  

 

 

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44 minutes ago, Troy said:

guess the fundamental question here is whether, or not, you believe that Eurocentric standards of beauty influence Black women. Seemingly all the studies and evidence in the world won't change you mind if you do not believe that it does.

 

The notion that Nigerian's use of skim bleaching is merely a desire to achieve, "...skin color resembling  beaming copper that shows off their face, instead dense onyx which absorbs it" Is really reaching....

Well, what i'm basically saying, is: "so what if European standards do influence black women?"  Self-esteem is the real issue.  You say that black women who emulate Europeans standards have low self-esteem.  i say that self-esteem is in the eye of the beholder and women themselves are who determine what self esteem represents to them. Not men who want to impose their definitions on us. 

 

And i disagree that my metaphor is reaching.  All "beauty" has it's origin in  nature, and enhancement is a factor in highlighting beauty. European  standards of beauty talk about rose bud lips, and sky blue eyes and lily white skin and flaxen hair.  Other ethnics can and do find examples in nature to compare themselves to. When they  attempt to adopt western standards of beauty they simply work with what they have.  

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On 8/9/2018 at 2:56 PM, Troy said:

what is TWA hair style? 

 

@Troy A TWA was a fashionable hairstyle when I was very young, in the 70s. It means Tiny Weeny Afro. The Black women used to wear TWA's and along with this hair style they would sometimes were 'chokers', a cloth-type necklace worn around the neck with a charm dangling from the middle. My husband said, his older sister would wear this style and the choker and all the AfroAmerican styles during the 1970s era. I was too young at this time to be into fashion, but I remember those days and the other hairstyles, the big afros and superfly type clothes. 

23 hours ago, Mel Hopkins said:

I think you're correct, denial is in play.

 

@Mel Hopkins Congrats on your Ebony article!

 

Yes, I do think that denial is in play on a much larger scale, globally. 

3 hours ago, Cynique said:

I really don't think that in the year 2018, black kids are preoccupied with whether white kids are better than they are.  They are more concerned about whether they might get shot by an evil white cop.

 

Absolutely agree

Edited by Chevdove
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@Cynique, allow me to clarify; I say that all people, but Black women in particular, are manipulated by slick marketers into behavior (including dress) that not only does not serve them but does them harm.  Sure, self lower self esteem is often a consequence but worsened health is another.

 

Cynique you know cigarettes are still heavily marketed in poor communities?  Have you have noticed how much bigger Black women are today? Of course women have learned to accept the new normal, but being obese is not healthy, despite the hype to the contrary. No one reasonable will argue that high heals, even the 4" ones are healthy foot wear and you are the only one I've ever heard justify skin lightening cream (I guess you find what Michael Jackson did to himself perfectly normal).

 

White men are affected too -- spending tons of money on remedies for baldness, pills to correct their limp penises, and lining up to pay a couple hundred dollars a ticket to see some Black athletes run with a ball down a field. Cynique it is all related. 

 

Please stop saying that I'm trying to tell women how to dress. More than anything I want women (indeed all of us) to be free of the manipulation, free of being made to consume things were not only don't need but hurt us. 

 

Thanks for the definition @Chevdove where did you grow up?

 

 

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3 hours ago, Troy said:

where did you grow up?

 

@Troy My foundation is in the north in Pennsylvania. I was born in Pennsylvanis but I am also a Navy Brat and due to my Step father, I eventually moved away from Pa when I was in Grade school and lived in other areas of The States. I graduated from high school in California and lived in Washington DC, Texas and etc. My mother's roots are in the deep south and I have lived there too.

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@TroyBeing manipulated by the commercial world is a fact of life, and is the name of the game that incorporates the supply and demand principle.    People are not as naive about this as you seem to think.  They just don't care. They want enjoyment out of life and they don't have a problem with letting those with technical and creative expertise provide them with status symbols that make them happy and placebos that give them false hope. As for cigarettes and liquor advertisinment, they do not saturate the inner cities anymore  after complaints about their bill boards appearing there. 

 

Enterprising companies cater to consumers. Why wouldn't they? And the public is made up of those who work for the manufacturers  who produce and provide the goods and services they purchase. They are scratching each other's backs, and this helps the economy.   Have you forgotten this is a capitalistic country? If you had your way, everyone would lead a Spartan existence, never indulging themselves, ever on the alert lest they be exploited by the dreaded manipulation mafia.   

 

13 hours ago, Troy said:

Please stop saying that I'm trying to tell women how to dress

i never said you are telling women how to dress. But you are advocating how they should wear their hair. And please don't say i am advocating skin lightening inasmuch as i didn't recommend it. And actually, i don't have to advocate these best selling products  because many black women use them to simply even out their skin tones. No bleaching cream is going to turn an ebony colored woman into an ivory colored one.   Michael Jackson claimed he had  alopecia and he had his skin professionally bleached so that he would be all one color instead of speckled.    

 

16 hours ago, Chevdove said:

 A TWA was a fashionable hairstyle when I was very young, in the 70s. It means Tiny Weeny Afro. The Black women used to wear TWA's and along with this hair style they would sometimes were 'chokers', a cloth-type necklace worn around the neck with a charm dangling from the middle.

@Chevdove  Hummm.  Interesting. i'm from a suburb of Chicago. I wore my hair in a bouffant Angela Davis Afro all during the 60s and 70s and i never heard of the term "TWA". either.  After a while .women around here did start cutting their Afro's down close, but i never knew this style had a name or do i recall them wearing the kind of chokers you described.  Maybe it's a regional thing or maybe i just wasn't hip to this because i was in my 40s during that era.      

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