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TROY, DISCUSSION & RESPECT

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TROY, DISCUSSION & RESPECT

 

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I have an inquiry about this community, but firstly, I want to say this:

 

I want to just say, thank you Troy for having and maintaining this site, a site that I have been able to come to and learn and also share. I have a lot of respect for you for what you are doing. I love to engage in a scholarly debate on topics that I think revolve around the African American Community and topics that affect me, but I do not want to be insulting or disrespectful to anyone whether African American or not. I hope to obtain confirmations on certain topics of my interest and also learn new things. I could not even imagine what it takes to manage such a community, but I thank you for allowing me to be here in the little time that I have been so far. But now, I have an inquiry based on the tone that I am sensing due to some of the recent postings and debating that has been going on in some of the threads.  

 

I think that European Americans come from a background where they have conflicted violently amongst each other and the World Wars may be a marker for this, but what I wonder though, is that are people of African descent pre-conditioned or inherently different from other cultures in our well-known type of Black-vs-Black hatred meted out towards each other. Does the idea of ‘respect’ become impossible to do when we attempt to communicate and discuss issues that we feel may be important? Are we conditioned to feel that we must dominate and control each other’s thoughts and beliefs? What if another Black person disagrees with another stance, does this kind of disagreement warrant a slight or personal insult aimed to strike down, demean, bully and control? When a person has been dealt a personal attack on their character then, how should they respond in a community designed for discussion and debate?

 

As for me, I come to this community to share and to gain other perspectives, but should I disagree, I am making a statement now, that I am going to ‘check myself’. There are some topics that are controversial but that should not mean that there is intent to harm. If I have offended someone wrongfully and it is brought to my attention, then I will try to make amends because I believe that this Discussion Community should not be used for the purpose of insulting another person. Some topics start out ‘intense’ but then humor is added in such a way that the interchange becomes a sharing experience. My coming here is not to attempt to control anyone or demean anyone who does not agree with me by dealing out personal insults or striking down someone’s humanity, freedom of speech or religious beliefs or whatever. If I write, for example, that I like psychedelic leaders, and then another poster states in response ‘that psychedelic leaders are freaks and practice beastiality’, well then, I might initially believe this is a personal attack, even after seeing valid references. Nevertheless, I am still going to try to receive it as criticism, but if there is truly no personal attack intended, then would it be so impossible to at least offer a respectful statement as an act of peaceful interchange? I want to share my beliefs and my research in hopes that I can gain or win someone over to what I have concluded but I have no intentions of hating or disrespecting anyone because of not agreeing with me. I hope that, at least, my input will be read and considered. But Troy, if I sense the urging to back off and leave this community that you have set up, then I will. I have much respect for the brilliance that so many Black African Americans and other people can bring to the table. But Hey!--If I am considered to stupid and ignorant to be respected too or to be given at least, the benefit of the doubt, and have my input weighed in on topics, I will refrain. Again, thank you Troy, for your genius. 

 

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Thank you for posting. I believe tat it's fine to attack and idea but not the person. I have been guilty of that more than once. I publicly apologised and felt quite contrite. It's great to be passionate however when it becomes aggressive, that's problematic. 

 

I don't think unity is possible amongst Black people. And I have used the dynamics that play out here as an example. 

 

I have been angered and saddened by the vindictiveness of of statements made to make a point. 

 

The Dove is an appropriate moniker. I have said you are so nice that I can't argue with you. I have also tried to change my debating style. Some perceptions of me are so ridiculous that I don't respond. 

 

And recently there seems to be an agitation or irritation that members display. Usually it towards one person.

 

I want to do less of that venomous personal attack. It creates a negative vibe. At times I have found it so frustrating that I have gone on hiatus, or have not responded to statements. 

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Propriety is important and mutual respect comes with propriety.  On an internet  discussion board, ongoing feuds can precipitate an exchange of insults. Online forums invariably become outlets for the kind of behavior that would not occur in a face-to-face confrontation.  Anonymity emboldens some people prompting them to push the buttons because they don't have to suffer the consequences of their aggressiveness. That's life.  That's what the board is a reflection of.  We have all kinds of personalities here.  i am tired and old and impatient.  In the future i will curb my true cynical self and not name-call.  That's the best i can do.  😬

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7 hours ago, Delano said:

fine to attack and idea but not the person

 

I do my best to focus on the idea- if I’ve veered from this aspect in debate charge it to my head - not my heart.   

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Chevdove said:

think that European Americans come from a background where they have conflicted violently amongst each other and the World Wars may be a marker for this, but what I wonder though, is that are people of African descent pre-conditioned or inherently different from other cultures in our well-known type of Black-vs-Black hatred meted out towards each other.

 

@Chevdove  hmm, this  part has me conflicted on several levels.  If you will,  allow me to work it out. 

 

1) How many close friends do you have of European descent?  My ex-husband is closest and to let him tell it - I “hate” him. (Not really, but we’re a very close-knit family.)

 

My last close white girlfriends was when I was in my 20s.  We entered high school together, graduated,  had babies etc.. We  were close and would fall out of favor with each other and then get back together.  I don’t think anyone would accuse us of black-vs-white hate... Folks just called us family.  

 

Couldn’t that be the same with black folks? 

 

Today, I roll alone - I have 3/5 heartbeats left and my sorority sisters. I no longer travel in a UN group or have white wo/men group to be petty in...no hatred to be meted out because there’s no group.  

 

Maybe those we tend to invest in emotionally are those who feel our wrath.  

 

Also, since Times Immemorial we’ve been fighting wars over resources and land - The europeans are on top now but this is the most recent history... “to the victor go the spoils” but should Africans act as if they’ve always been peaceful tree-hugging natives and this is the reason we’re getting our butts kicked?  I say let us not go there... 

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Currently, there are several brutal conflicts occurring throughout Africa ...

 

There are several turf wars happening right here in metro atlanta - black folks gun-running human-trafficking and drug-selling... They don’t take prisoners either and unfortunately a police officer was just gunned down last night and the suspect is dead.  We have folks fleeing el salvadore - honduras - guatemala because of gangs, guns, drugs...

 

All this to say warmongers come in all colors and their goal is to control the resources - and each other. 

 

So possibly controlling other humans is the source of our collective malfunction.

 

Maybe it is a human (pathological) behavior to annihilate those who oppose us. 

 

Edited by Mel Hopkins
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1 hour ago, Mel Hopkins said:

So possibly controlling other humans is the source of our collective malfunction.

 

And envy. We attack what we don't understand and fear. Which is another component to domination. 

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On 12/14/2018 at 10:16 AM, Delano said:

I want to do less of that venomous personal attack. It creates a negative vibe. At times I have found it so frustrating that I have gone on hiatus, or have not responded to statements. 

 

@Delano Yeah, 'going on a hiateus' I think sometimes is good for everyone, but I just hope that, we as Afro-Americans, in general, who come together for scholarly debate don't attack each other so viciously that we cause someone to feel that a permanent hiatus is the only solution. I have read that both Troy and you had an earlier friendship and, I'm like, WOW,  I hope they don't fall out too bad. LOL! Then I see you and PIoneer1 going at it, and then I'm thinking, DANG! Is this a man thing. LOL. Some situation comedies portray that men seem to go to disagreements differently than women--I don't know. 

 

On 12/14/2018 at 10:16 AM, Delano said:

The Dove is an appropriate moniker. I have said you are so nice that I can't argue with you. I have also tried to change my debating style. Some perceptions of me are so ridiculous that I don't respond. 

 

OH! Thank you, thank you, thank you! But I can take criticism like any adult, and I will try to stay in the right frame of respect, that I believe in, however, I try to always put a check on myself too. I try to always be ready to say, I apologize. 

 

My perception of you though, is high because it is easy to see past the personal jabs aimed against you,  for me.

 

22 hours ago, Cynique said:

i am tired and old and impatient.  In the future i will curb my true cynical self and not name-call.  That's the best i can do.  😬

 

 @Cynique I believe that 'trying' is the best that we all can do at times especially as you said, 'respect is mutual'. For me, though, when you write about your being 'tired and old and impatient' in one aspect, I can understand, but your energy and expression, defies your 'being old' IMO. You are so unique to me. Your spirit defies your being old. I'm old(er) too! LOL--But I want my spirit to be strong, no matter. 

18 hours ago, Mel Hopkins said:

I do my best to focus on the idea- if I’ve veered from this aspect in debate charge it to my head - not my heart.   

 

@Mel Hopkins LOL! That is easy for me to see! 

17 hours ago, Mel Hopkins said:

All this to say warmongers come in all colors and their goal is to control the resources - and each other. 

 

So possibly controlling other humans is the source of our collective malfunction.

 

This sounds like one of my sons, viewpoint!

Thank you for the reference of the Late Dr. Chancellor Williams! 

Edited by Chevdove
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On 12/14/2018 at 9:44 AM, Chevdove said:

If I have offended someone wrongfully and it is brought to my attention, then I will try to make amends...

 

Chevdove, please just put that thought out of your head.  If you express an idea or opinion that someone takes offense to that is THEIR problem, not yours.  Now if someone disagrees with you can't be offended either.  Sometimes things can appear to get headed but you can't take any of it personally.

 

Sometimes you have to get to know folks.  For example, I'd say things to Pioneer in a way that I would not with you -- simply because he is another dude with amazingly thick skin 🙂

 

I cosign everything everyone else wrote and thanks for the kind words @Chevdove

 

Your post was in the spirit of the holiday season and was needed thanks!

 

Peace and Love

 

 

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2 hours ago, Troy said:

  If you express an idea or opinion that someone takes offense to that is THEIR problem, not yours. 

I disagree. Some comments make me want to take a break because of their toxic egocentricity. 

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6 hours ago, Chevdove said:

OH! Thank you, thank you, thank you! But I can take criticism like any adult, and I will try to stay in the right frame of respect

You have never been dismissive. 

6 hours ago, Chevdove said:

. I have read that both Troy and you had an earlier friendship and, I'm like, WOW,  I hope they don't fall out too bad. LOL! Then I see you and PIoneer1 going at it, and then I'm thinking, DANG! Is this a man thing

Troy is the only person here that I have broken bread with, and even though he tries my patience , he is like my younger older brother.

 

He is am Aries and I am a Scorpio. So he is Mars by day and I am Mars by night.

 

Pioneer and I think on diametrically opposed ways.

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17 hours ago, Troy said:

Now if someone disagrees with you can't be offended either.

 

@Troy 

 

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"Sometimes things can appear to get headed but you can't take any of it personally."

 

 

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18 hours ago, Troy said:

Chevdove, please just put that thought out of your head.  If you express an idea or opinion that someone takes offense to that is THEIR problem, not yours. 

 

Seriously though, thank you for the guidance. But, I think sometimes I can get ahead of myself and then when I look back over something that I am passionate about, I realize that it is hard to completely see everything on certain subjects I have researched and so, If it comes to my attention 'how small my mind is' It doesn't surprise me that I am sometimes wrong and need to address it, and make apologies and clarifications, if i can.

 

I think people, especially me, sometimes do make offenses and overstep boundaries, thinking (we) know it all, but other people can and do always bring other perspectives that add so much more to ideas, thoughts, actions. When I share my views and research, I sometimes go into the discussion with so much confidence that I really got a full understanding only to find out, I didn't. 

 

"Sometimes you have to get to know folks.  For example, I'd say things to Pioneer in a way that I would not with you -- simply because he is another dude with amazingly thick skin 🙂"

 

LOL! Thank goodness for that!!! 

 

THIS IS YOU AND @Pioneer1  or YOU and @Delano:

 

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18 hours ago, Troy said:

Your post was in the spirit of the holiday season and was needed thanks!

 

 

Seasons Greetings!!! HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!! 

 

... Now I'm about to get into some deep topics

over on the other thread . . . . YEAH, Imma say it . . . 

 

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16 hours ago, Delano said:

I disagree. Some comments make me want to take a break because of their toxic egocentricity. 

 

@Delano I have to agree. But I try to keep in mind what @Cynique said too. . . It's is the internet . . . and like @Troy said, I try to shake it off and keep it movin.  

 

"You have never been dismissive." 

 

Thank you! But I'm gonna keep that a secret from my husband! 

 

"He is am Aries and I am a Scorpio. So he is Mars by day and I am Mars by night."

 

Now I'm curious! 

 

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Cynique

In the future i will curb my true cynical self and not name-call. That's the best i can do.


Sheeeeyit.....I don't think you can even do THAT much.
Infact, I don't think you can help yourself.....lol.




Troy

 

For example, I'd say things to Pioneer in a way that I would not with you -- simply because he is another dude with amazingly thick skin 🙂


Either that; or I don't always know when I'm actually being insulted....lol.

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19 hours ago, Delano said:

I disagree. Some comments make me want to take a break because of their toxic egocentricity. 

 

That is fine Del, but the perspective of "toxic egocentricity" comes from within.  How we interpret this is as much a function of who were are is it is the other person. 

 

It is like the Kevin Hart scenario. Kevin sad he was smash is kid over the head with a doll house if he caught him playing with one.  Someone else took this joke to imply that Kevin was advocating for violence against children and was evil. Again this is more about the person than Kevin.  Similarly, I shouldn't have to say rape is bad, but when I say it is bad and am not believed that has nothing to do with me...

 

3 hours ago, Chevdove said:

When I share my views and research, I sometimes go into the discussion with so much confidence that I really got a full understanding only to find out, I didn't. 

 

Exactly. Sometimes I (all of us) simply don't know what we don't know, and being exposed to new ideas and open to them is how we learn.

 

2 hours ago, Delano said:

Troy is fire I am ice. 

 

Yeah I'm fire baby! Don't get too close or you might be burned.  You know I'm an advocate of raping teenage girls 🔥

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4 hours ago, Troy said:

You know I'm an advocate of raping teenage girls 🔥

No you just refuse to defend their honour fron an old rapey preacher. ❄ 

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I've read Chev's original post over and over again and still don't have a very clear understanding of her and Troy's issue, but let me say this.....

As I've said on many occasions, having frequented many websites I've noticed that many women don't like the atmosphere of a website unless it is:

a) Moderated mostly by women

or

b) Moderated by a male who is heavily infuenced by women who can pull on his arm and point to who they don't like or feel are offensive and get them punished or banned.

Infact, what I've noticed a LOT is that many websites have a "gorilla harem" type of atmosphere where there is one dominate male moderator and a bunch of females under him...sometimes they are moderators and other times they are just well respected members who are very sweet to him alone and often times will use him to strike out at anyone on the forum they don't like.

I'm not sure if it's feeling of security or what but most women like HEAVILY moderated websites.

 Troy pretty much does what an Administrator and moderator SHOULD do in my opinon which is allow people to express themelves and weed out trolls.

I briefly operated a message board years ago and I even allowed  what are now considered "trolls" to post.....lol.
The only time I banned people or took down posts was if they made threats to harm people or exposed personal information against another poster's will.  But I guess things are different today where many sites are being flagged if too much racist, sexist, or anti-homosexual content is posted.

But back to Chevdove's issue........

 


From my experience  dealing with people and understanding human psychology,  there may also be something else that COULD be an issue.

Troy's open idenity as Administrator

Having seen people come and go on this site and others, I've noticed that even if a moderator doesn't say it or even imply it....often times when people get into a disagreement or even personal conflict with the moderator of a site their first instinct is to get frustrated and LEAVE.
They just assume that they have no chance of "making it" on that site if the head person is against them

Even in real life I've noticed this.

On jobs I've seen people get into conflict with other employees and stay on for months or even years until they either work things out or just stay out of eachother's way and keep on pushing.  But if they get into some sort of conflict with a manager....even if the manager doesn't talk about firing them NOR even gives them a hard time....most of the time they start looking for another job and leave.
I've been a manager at some jobs and I've had a couple people  just walk out or give their 2 week notice with just the SLIGHTEST criticism!

When I ask another employee what happened they tell me they THOUGHT I was going to fire them so they just bounced.

I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed this at work.

When you're a person of authority your very POSITION holds weight and can sometimes put people on alert or make the nervous that you may mete out some sort or punishment with the slightest provocation even if you intend nothing of the sort.

I've always taken the position of UNLESS a manager (or  in the case of a website- the moderator) explicitly says or implies that they will ban me or start removing my posts, if I disagree with them I will continue my disagreements but in a respectful way acknowledging their position.

Now this MAY NOT be an issue in this instance, but I figured it's a good point to bring up since the theme of this thread seems to be somewhat related and I've seen it quite a bit.

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13 hours ago, Delano said:

No you just refuse to defend their honour fron an old rapey preacher

 

Please spare me.

 

What have you done to defend their honor? More recently are you defending the honor of Cosby's victim? Are protesting, marching in the street adovacting for stronger legislation, what?

 

Tell me what are you doing besides trying make it seem like other Bkack men don't defend Black women.

 

I raised two Black women to independence who were loved and protected their entire lives. Have you?

 

Please tell me what you doing besides judging and accusing other Black men.

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15 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

I've read Chev's original post over and over again and still don't have a very clear understanding of her and Troy's issue, but let me say this.....

 

@Pioneer1 It's nothing deep. I just saw a lot of ongoing jabbing going on in the community and thought it would be a good idea to start this thread.

But I really found what you said here very interesting. 

 

I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed this at work.

 

Yes, I think people give our signals all the time directed at someone.

 

 

16 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Infact, what I've noticed a LOT is that many websites have a "gorilla harem" type of atmosphere where there is one dominate male moderator and a bunch of females under him

 

IMO, there are too many different personalities on the internet today, and it is no telling what kind of atmosphere a community might develop, but I just try to 'monitor' myself and stay on the same purpose for why I come to sites like this one. in the first place.  Self Control is good for me, but I also believe that the atmosphere can change, no matter who the manager is, male or female, and this can cause a negative atmosphere where people have veered off the topic.  I try not to feed into this negative energy by 'remembering' that I came to the community for other things--Not to insult, belittle or attack someone deliberately. I don't believe anyone presently visiting this community actually came here to insult anyone, but it happened and I think it would be good if we try to have some respect because, it helps. Because there will be controversial topics that will always come up in a discussion forum, offenses are bound to happen, but it is good to stay on topic because, I know I can grow from these experiences. 

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On ‎12‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 10:52 AM, Chevdove said:

 

@Pioneer1 It's nothing deep. I just saw a lot of ongoing jabbing going on in the community and thought it would be a good idea to start this thread.

But I really found what you said here very interesting.  

 

I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed this at work.

 

Yes, I think people give our signals all the time directed at someone.

 

 

 

IMO, there are too many different personalities on the internet today, and it is no telling what kind of atmosphere a community might develop, but I just try to 'monitor' myself and stay on the same purpose for why I come to sites like this one. in the first place.  Self Control is good for me, but I also believe that the atmosphere can change, no matter who the manager is, male or female, and this can cause a negative atmosphere where people have veered off the topic.  I try not to feed into this negative energy by 'remembering' that I came to the community for other things--Not to insult, belittle or attack someone deliberately. I don't believe anyone presently visiting this community actually came here to insult anyone, but it happened and I think it would be good if we try to have some respect because, it helps. Because there will be controversial topics that will always come up in a discussion forum, offenses are bound to happen, but it is good to stay on topic because, I know I can grow from these experiences. 

 


Girl you KNOW how Black folks tend to argue and fight among eachother....lol.
You should be used to that by now.

 

Infact, Neely Fuller Jr. says that because Black folks tend to argue and fight with eachother so much, the best thing to do is to STAY AWAY from eachother until we have a definite constructive project that we can work with eachother on.


I used to shake my head at it, and still do at times.
But I also look at the arguing and fighting as a sign of our strength both mental and physical.
Kind of like The Dozens that boys used to play (and still do in many communities) with eachother at school or on the street. Where you insult the other to test them and see how much they can take before breaking down crying, running away, or try to fight in anger of losing a verbal match.

The key is to remember this is online and not to be too sensitive.
Unless someone is making threats against you or talking about your direct family, you let it roll off and keep pushing.

I would prefer Black unity, but sometimes we have to work out the "kinks" among ourselves before that unity can take place.

I would rather we argue with eachother than ignore eachother and retreat to our own little circles of unanimous agreement where it becomes nothing but an opera house full of multiple echo-chambers.

 

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48 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Infact, Neely Fuller Jr. says that because Black folks tend to argue and fight with eachother so much, the best thing to do is to STAY AWAY from eachother until we have a definite constructive project that we can work with eachother on.

52 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:


I would rather we argue with eachother than ignore eachother and retreat to our own little circles of unanimous agreement where it becomes nothing but an opera house full of multiple echo-chambers.

Which is it, avoidance or confrontation. Can you tell me how to decide. 

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Del

 

Which is it, avoidance or confrontation. Can you tell me how to decide.


You should take a "line item veto" approach.....lol.

In some cases you should confont a person and engage them in argument if you think it will be productive, and in other cases when you feel no progress will be made you should avoid them.

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On 12/16/2018 at 6:32 PM, Pioneer1 said:

Troy pretty much does what an Administrator and moderator SHOULD do in my opinon which is allow people to express themelves and weed out trolls.

 

Thank you.

 

On 12/16/2018 at 6:32 PM, Pioneer1 said:

a) Moderated mostly by women

or

b) Moderated by a male who is heavily infuenced by women who can pull on his arm and point to who they don't like or feel are offensive and get them punished or banned.

 

Point "a" seems to be true. I have not witnessed "b," but you probably have more experience with other forums. 

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On 12/20/2018 at 9:35 AM, Pioneer1 said:

Infact, Neely Fuller Jr. says that because Black folks tend to argue and fight with eachother so much, the best thing to do is to STAY AWAY from eachother until we have a definite constructive project that we can work with eachother on.

 @Pioneer1 Really!? LOL That's funny.

 

I don't like to argue, but I love to debate!

 

 

On 12/20/2018 at 10:28 AM, Delano said:

Which is it, avoidance or confrontation. Can you tell me how to decide. 

 

@Delano Good question! You know, I think that when a confrontation shifts to personal insults and personal attacks on someone's character that keeps on going, then it may be time to temporarily avoid... People are going to have a difference of opinion, but it should not resort to tearing someone character down. Nevertheless, even if someone has the best of intentions towards others, offenses will still occur. We should at this point, learn how to address offenses respectfully as possibe, and then keep it moving...

 

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Chev

I used to love debating people.
Still do sometimes.
I love being right/correct and showing others that I am, lol.

However as I've gotten older I've realized the importance of debating FOR A GOOD REASON.

Like debating in order to convince the person I'm debating with and/or those listening that my ideas are better.

 

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