President Obama's statement on Zimmerman verdict:

[Troy]

"The death of Trayvon Martin was a tragedy. Not just for his family, or for any one community, but for America. I know this case has elicited strong passions. And in the wake of the verdict, I know those passions may be running even higher. But we are a nation of laws, and a jury has spoken.

 

I now ask every American to respect the call for calm reflection from two parents who lost their young son. And as we do, we should ask ourselves if we’re doing all we can to widen the circle of compassion and understanding in our own communities. We should ask ourselves if we’re doing all we can to stem the tide of gun violence that claims too many lives across this country on a daily basis. We should ask ourselves, as individuals and as a society, how we can prevent future tragedies like this. As citizens, that’s a job for all of us. That’s the way to honor Trayvon Martin."

 

[Troy]

{sigh}

[Pioneer1]

We should ask ourselves, as individuals and as a society, how we can prevent future tragedies like this.

 

 

Well if I as an individual were asked how to prevent future tragedies like this.....

For one, the FEDERAL government can stop acting like a big pussy in the face of some of these Conservative Republican state governors who are trying their best to push through and enact ultra-rightwing legislation like the "stand your ground" law that inspire the George Zimmermans of America.

Why the Federal goverment even allows the states to enable such laws and stand back wringing their hands like they are helpless and why there is so much "back-n-forth" today over who has the power to overrule who is a bit confusing.

As a kid in Social Studies class I was taught that Federal law ALWAYS trumps State law without a doubt.

Another thing the Feds can do is actually go after the right wing neo-nazis and Klansmen who are stockpiling weapons and ammo like strawberry preserve.

Some of these clowns even have TEVEVISION SHOWS on TLC and the Discovery Channel where they come on bragging about the amount of weapons they have blowing up trailers and demonstrating how much power they have!

How in the hell in 2013 can a bunch of rednecks come on television and BRAG about what they have and what they will do if the "government" tries to take away thier guns without so much as a rumor of a Federal investigation?

 

 

To put this problem on private citizens or the society at large is "passing the buck".

Private citizens can only do so much without breaking the law themselves.

This is a legislative issue that must be addressed by the appropriate officials who can actually do something about it legally.

[Troy]

What we need are activist attorneys to do the work required to get laws like stand your ground changed.  This work is never initiated by politicians and certainly will not be initiated by the likes of Obama. 

 

I recently posted information about an attorney named A. Leon Higginbotham, Jr.  Men like this worked within the system to effect necessary changes in the system.  Everyone (I hope) knows Thurgood Marshall, but we need to here the stories of people like Higginbotham, Charles Hamilton Houston, William H. Hastie, and others to know that it was not bitching on Facebook or in the streets that effects change but the efforts or organized activists.

 

The NAACP should be leading these efforts but people don't want to support the organization -- let alone pay a membership fee and join it.

 

Obama would probably do something but WE have to MAKE him do it.  But we can't be minutely critical of him without being looked upon as a race traitor.

[Delano]

I think you have a few issues. Power, values protest. You may not be able to change people's values but you can sanction inappropriate behaviour. Protest has been effective historically in giving voice to the masses. I don't think that will change unless protest cease. Though there are laws at least in New York that male it more difficult.

[Troy]

Del I think power only really reacts to power.

 

Do you think the effective genocide of the Native Americans would have been stopped by a protest?  How about Nazi aggression in Europe.  Do you think protests would have had much of an impact on ending American slavery?  Protests against the use of drones has only resulted in an increase in the activity.  Protests have not closed Guantanamo Bay, improved Black incarnation rates, improved our education system or even slowed activity contributing to climate change, 

 

"Occupy", the largest protest in recent memory did nothing, changed nothing. 

 

Power is loves protests because if allows those being victimized to vent, blow off some steam without resorting to the violent activity that might actually change something.

 

In the past power has come in the form of violence, commerce, or legal activity.  True a protest might spur the application of power but getting the word out, but if not the protest is not followed up with a powerful tool a gun, money or a court case nothing will change.

[Delano]

The women's movement, the civil rights movement, Ghandi's movement. Whenever the masses gather that is power. Which is why New York has enacted anti gathering laws. Unlike yourself they recognise the potential power of the masses.

[Troy]

:-)  You dodged my examples Del.   So I'll pick one of yours, the Civil Rights movement.

 

We both know a lot of blood was shed as a direct consequence of fighting for our civil rights.  Lets be clear it was a fight. The Civil rights movement including the murder it's most iconic leader MLK was a violent affair.  The Montgomery bus boycott which would have put that bus company out of business is what helped change the back of the bus rules.  The activity of the attorneys, working under the leadership of the NAACP, putting pressure the government and bringing fights to the courts is why laws changed. 

 

The civil right movement was not successful because of a bunch of protest marches.   Sure protest grab attention of the media and let people blow off steam.  The real changes however came as a result of sustained effort of people, often unsung, who do the real work behind the scenes. 

 

We had a "million" Black men march on Washington in 1995. As far as I know the problems for Black men have only escalated since then.

 

Since we are outnumbered and out gunned we can't realistically exert power through violence.  Our power comes from our ability to changes laws, our financial power, and changing the way we think.   Much of the power has not been used since the Civil Rights era.  Save the effort to get Obama in office.

 

Speak about Obama, some even argue that President Obama should use his executive powers in the way that Abraham Lincoln singlehandedly ended slavery by executive decree via the Emancipation Proclamation.

 

Our problem is that we spend too much time marching and not enough time exerting our real power.

[Cynique]

In any organized movement, there is a strategy. The strategy involves a series of tactics that come in stages. Public protest in the form of marching is an early stage; it is a tactic that seeks to dramatize a grievance by using the streets as a stage . Marches are not the be-all end-all; they are an attention-getting mechanism which serve to usher in the next stage which very often involves boycotting.  Of course, legal challenges to injustices are an ongoing approach behind the scenes of any movement.But as we have seen in the incorrect charges lodged against Zimmerman, legal ploys can be used to circumvent the pursuit of justice.

 

The final stage of a movement involves the achievement of having its goal become an institution in the greater society. Presumably in a Democracy this process works and the voice of the people prevails. Unfortunately, America is not what it claims to be. The majority does not rule, the States are not united, and  the great melting pot has cooled and congealed as each ingredient has separated, becoming a clump of its own kind, and none of these entities seem inclined to blend with African-Americans.

 

With all of their praying and struggling and demanding, black people have never achieved anything but tokenism. Barack Obama is the supreme example of this impotency. The question is why do Blacks remain mired in a situation that  keeps them down. Is it because we remain strangers in a strange land, and don't know how to maneuver in a concrete jungle? Is it because class distinctions have become the equivalent of opposing tribes?  When a situation never undergoes permanent change, there has to be an inherent reason for this. What is it?? Is it natural for Blacks to be despised and rejected, even among themselves?   

 

Jews have experienced centuries of anti-semitism and have never elected an American  President, but they thrive. Their power lies in the mercantile genius of their DNA which provides them with the supreme weapon. Money. 

[Pioneer1]

I was going to say the same thing about protesting.

Millions of people protested the Iraq War (2003), I remember seeing a crowd in downtown San Francisco that looked like it was nearly a half million people gathered together.
.....but Bush still went on in anyway so what good did it do?

After all the wars he started, now he's down at his Texas home chilling.

 

 

Protests worked better during a time when many of our leaders were moral and felt atleast SOME obligation to answer to the people.
Now, they answer to there corporate sponsors and don't give a damn what the people (even those who vote for them) have to say.

Black people need to focus on gaining economic power and political power then use the brains God gave us to build our OWN communities/societies (within America) instead of expecting others to build them for us.


I'm not trying to change the subject of the thread to that of one of religion, but....

I've said it time and time again that the more immoral and unethical or "ghetto acting" Black people become the less power our people will have no matter what they try.

The power that brought our community through slavery and Jim Crow all the way to economic and social prosperity from the 50s throught the 80s was "soul power".
The power of our righteousness and morality.
The fact that most of our people just wouldn't do certain things or engage in certain behavior.

The more Black atheists, homosexuals, criminals, thugs, and all other manner of degenerate madness you see in our community the more you're going to see weakness and empty ineffective solutions built upon faulty logic doomed to failure from their conceptions.

You can't cry and complain about the behavior of Whites toward you when you are just as wicked and evil as they are...but not as smart.

If our people want to be successful they MUST first stop trying to imitate so-called "intellectual" White folks and acknowledge that there IS a God, then line themselve up with His universal laws.

Take it or leave it alone.

[Cynique]

I leave it alone.  Why do black people have to do what white people aren't doing, Pioneer?  They are 2 sides of the same coin.  The white elite work The System the same way ghetto Blacks do; they are just more sophisticated in their tactics. They enjoy the fruits of corporate welfare and farm subsidies and low taxes.They instigate and support wars that kill thousands of people because this profits the military industrial gang even it it doesn't accomplish the goal of protecting this country's  foreign turf.  Power hungry America maintains an standing army of uniformed thugs ready to unleash firepower or launch drive-by drones. There are no good and bad guys in this equation.

 

Religious hypocrites and homosexuals and perverts and a thriving porno industry pollute white America, but according to you, Blacks will be rewarded if they become Puritanical.    And it's not as if Blacks don't already embrace religion, inspite of the fact that their ferverent prayers go unanswered, and they do penance daily for the sin of having black skin.  Or is it as if white people have set an example of what it takes to win "god's favor. they do as they damn well please and still enjoy an abundance of racist blessings.

 

You blithely  suggest that Blacks stop doing what they really aren't doing; which is emulating intellectuals and embracing atheism. The black masses are not engaged in mentally profound discourse but are humbly worshipping god in spite of the fact that "he" has proven time and time again that "he" doesn't give a damn about them.  African Americans  endured 400 years of slavery and in the  present their descendants are still shackled by racism.  They are a forsaken people, beholden to white folks and their white god.  

 

And when are these universal laws you speak of  gonna kick in?  Blacks are a very spiritual race of people and if this was going to benefit them, it should've happened by now. It's a myth that after the civil rights movement, Blacks enjoyed great prosperity and no longer experienced discrimination and that the poverty that gave rise to the ghetto culture disappeared.   It was all a charade that is manifesting itself in post racial America. 

 

When are Blacks going to become aligned with the channels of good fortune?? In the hereafter? In that vague domain in the sky invented to placate fools who are being denied what others have in the here-and- now. You always imply that Blacks are guillible, and easily corrupted by the factions that you personally don't agree with, Pioneer.  Yet you have no problem with encouraging them  to be guillible enough to think that their problems will all vanish if they just become humble judgmental believers.  

 

You also act as though people are looking to you for salvation, Pioneer, and that you have mission to come up with answers for the plight of black people and that yours is the final word. Not. Those Black folks  who possess a natural guile will find ways to be among those who endure. Only the strong survive is the true universal law. So be it.

[Pioneer1]

Cynique

 

Now Cynique...........

I'd like you to think.

Think reeeaally hard....lol

Do you know of ANY Black people who are (not just religious and go to Church a lot) but actually practice RIGHTEOUS CONDUCT like not engaging in or threatening violence, telling the truth, giving to charity, who are catching hell.

Do you know of ANY who practice these virtues but yet are still having a hard time in life?

Just like being religious doesn't necessarily make one spiritual....being moral doesn't necessarily make one moral.

Sure Black people are very spiritual....but how moral are we?

The Black community not only in America but outside of America have been engaging in murder (of eachother), theft (from eachother) adultery, rape, worshipping materialism, and exploitation (of their own).

Morality is in one's BEHAVIOR and SPEECH, not in how much incense they burn or how many dreams they can remember and interpret.

 

[Cynique]

Cynique

 

Now Cynique...........

I'd like you to think.

Think reeeaally hard....lol

Do you know of ANY Black people who are (not just religious and go to Church a lot) but actually practice RIGHTEOUS CONDUCT like not engaging in or threatening violence, telling the truth, giving to charity, who are catching hell.

Do you know of ANY who practice these virtues but yet are still having a hard time in life?

Just like being religious doesn't necessarily make one spiritual....being moral doesn't necessarily make one moral.

Sure Black people are very spiritual....but how moral are we?

The Black community not only in America but outside of America have been engaging in murder (of eachother), theft (from eachother) adultery, rape, worshipping materialism, and exploitation (of their own).

Morality is in one's BEHAVIOR and SPEECH, not in how much incense they burn or how many dreams they can remember and interpret.

 

What cave do you live in, Pioneer? Your "logic" is circuitous?? I can't believe you ask these question of someone who lives around Chicago where people who are trying to follow  the straight and narrow path, trying to raise their kids to not join gangs, or become  thugs, and to stay in school, and to not get pregnant, all the while trying to hold a job, attend church regularly and last but not least, deal with the daily violence and mayhem that victimizes more innocent people than intended targets.  This hard lifestyle of catching hell is more the exception than the rule in all urban areas.How can you not know this???

 

And it's  common for folks to end up being punished for trying to do good or whose attempts at being charitable have back fired.  People doing the most wrong are the ones leading the easiest lives.  Espcially those in high places.  Sorry.  Your sermon is not reaching me.

 

And your definition of spirituality and morality is simply that. What YOU think these words mean.  To me, being spiritual is being in touch with yourself,  not burning incense. Describing black people as spiritual is about their capacity for feeling things. And morality is not setting yourself up as a judge, and being preoccupied  with imposing rigid prudish rules on other people  To me,  It's about respecting a person's right to lead whatever life they choose as long as it doesn't threaten others. 

 

Everybody has their own "moral" code and it often coincides with their philosophy of life, not what somebody else is shaking their finger at.  Who is to say who is right?   But it's useless for me to argue this with somebody like you because your mind is finite.  You can't think before or beyond a certain point; you're too scared to do this.  And you mistake your fear for morality.    

[Troy]

I agree with aspects of both Cynique's and Pioneers arguments. 

 

John Henrik Clarke described Christianity, and I paraphrase, as the hand maiden of the conqueror.  Given that is was a religion given to us here by our white enslavers I have little faith it can help us.  I know I've disappointed a lot of Christians...  But that does not mean that we don't need a code of behavior or should not behave in a righteous manner toward each other -- it just can't be a code based upon something a white "master" gave to our enslaved ancestors.

 

Of course I agree that, "Black people need to focus on gaining economic power and political power then use the brains God gave us to build our OWN communities/societies (within America) instead of expecting others to build them for us."  Again, as I've asserted, no amount of protesting is going to get us this nor will Christianity.

[Pioneer1]

I'm sorry I was posting in a hurry..............

What I MEANT to say was:
 

"Just like being religious doesn't necessarily make one spiritual....BEING SPIRITUAL doesn't necessarily make one more moral."

 

 

 

Cynique

So being judgemental makes one's mind "finite" huh???

No man (or woman) is an island.
EVERYTHING another person does effects other people in the community they live in either directly or indirectly so the Western concept of individualism (I'm doing my own thing so mind your own business) can be considered not only flawed by immature in the contexts of human history.

People MUST be judgemental in order to live a safe and successful life.
Ofcourse making some judgements (like assuming a Black teenager wearing a hoodie and walking slow must be a burglar) are erroneous, but most are done in good faith and are based on past experiences and observations that lead to success.

Now you talk about good people who are trying to maintain and live their lives in gang infested deteriorating neighborhoods......
It COULD be argued that part of being righteous...atleast for men....is not just minding your own business and trying to maintain in a corrupt environment but to go farther and ESTABLISH safety and order in a chaotic community.

You often "get at" me for being too self-righteous and judgemental but it's this "don't tell me what to do" or "I'm doing my own thing" attitude that has allowed so much of the Black community to deteriorate in the first place where decent people often have to put up living around "hellish" conditions.

Perhaps being judgemental isn't even enough.
Maybe one should go a step farther and start laying the law down in the neighborhoods like the FOI and even some of the Black Panthers used to do to establish order and peace in the community for the common good.

[Pioneer1]

Troy

We certainly need a moral code.

For years I've been trying to sit Black people down in various discussion circles to hammer out a code that most of us can agree on but talks often start breaking down (especially between males and females) when we start getting to sexual subjects and what should be permitted.

 

 

[Cynique]

To me, your having a finite mind, Pioneer,  means that you can't imagine the possibility that the laws of morality are made by Man not by some vague supreme being who you refer to god.  In spite of denying that you are religious, your mind cannot process the idea  that  the unfathomable omnipotent force you want to personify is simply an impartial power not concerned with the affairs of men or the events that  precipitate them, and that in the big picture, randomness plays a significant role  and that the closest thing to good and evil is matter and anti-matter.  You also seem to dismiss the possibility that man himself is a divine being. It's simple. Your mind is finite because - you do not think outside the box.   

 

Africa is nothing to write home about. It's a bereft continent populated with human suffering.   What about black Americans?  Are they  doomed to be like children eternally wandering in the wilderness, despised and rejected, forever needing  to be led and told what to do?? When it comes to uplifting the race, nothing has any wide spread results or long term effects. The mantra drones on and on.  What black people need to do is....What?  Nothing works.   Self-styled messiahs utter empty platitudes. blah, blah, blah.

 

 The negroid species is supposedly what the first humans were. Somewhere along the evolutionary highway, the prototype of this stock neglected to click onto a link, and they didn't get the memo that all its varied mutations got. In the present, maybe all of the killngs and self destructiveness  will run its natural  course and what's left will  return to square one and get it right the next time around.

 

Wake me when it's over.  zzzzzzzz

[Pioneer1]

Cynique

 

 

Wake me when it's over. zzzzzzzz

 

Oh...you're sleeping!

No wonder you have such a hard time trying to understand what I tell you, lol.


BTW when have I ever denied being religious?

I said months ago in another thread that one doesn't necessarily NEED religion in order to believe in and worship God.

That doesn't necessarily translate to being non-religious.......

Except when you put on a pair of Cynique's special 3-D glasses......lol....that magically projects every word and imagine them to jump out of the screen to attack.

Booooiioooiiiinnng!