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PLAN TO DESTROY BLACK BOYS.

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BOOK CALLED  COUNTERING  THE PLAN TO DESTROY BLACK BOYS/THERE   IS A  PLAN TO  DESTROY    THE BLACK RACE,  BY  WHITE  CHRISTIANS,SOME   WHO   SUPPORT  DONALD   TRUMP,  KKK  NEO  NAZI   SUPPORT TRUMP FOR  PRESIDENT..  POOR  SCHOOLS, PRISONS,/THE BLACK    INVOLVEMENT,/CRACK HOUSES,PIMPS, MURDEROUS   STREET   GANGS,   IRRESPONSIBLE   BLACK FATHERS,BLACK WOMEN WHO WANT THEM/WHILE   GESTAPO  HITLER  WHITE POLICE   MURDER BLACK MALES/   BASKET BALL   CHARLES BARKLEY  SAYS BLACK PEOPLE ARE BRAIN WASHED//WITH RELIGION  YES,  BLACK  PREACHERS     ACT  LIKE   JESUS AND GOD   IS WHITE  ,WHEN  BIBLE DOES NOT SAY IT../POOR  SCHOOLS,PARENTING,POLITICAL LEADERS,MONEY LUST   PREACHERS,BLACK BOYS  DESTROYED   BY     WHITE   EVIL  DEMONS   IN  POLICE UNIFORM, STREET GANGS,   ABSENT FATHERS,  PREACHERS,POLITICAL  YOU CANNOT TRUST..BOOK  COUNTERING  THE  PLAN TO DESTROY BLACK BOYS, JUWANZA KUNJUFU/////

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"BOOK CALLED  COUNTERING  THE PLAN TO DESTROY BLACK BOYS/THERE   IS A  PLAN TO  DESTROY    THE BLACK RACE,  BY  WHITE  CHRISTIANS,SOME   WHO   SUPPORT  DONALD   TRUMP,  KKK  NEO  NAZI   SUPPORT TRUMP FOR  PRESIDENT..  POOR  SCHOOLS, PRISONS,/THE BLACK    INVOLVEMENT,/CRACK HOUSES,PIMPS, MURDEROUS   STREET   GANGS,   IRRESPONSIBLE   BLACK FATHERS,BLACK WOMEN WHO WANT THEM/WHILE   GESTAPO  HITLER  WHITE POLICE   MURDER BLACK MALES/....... "

Uhhhh....is someone not taking their meds? Just curious.....

 

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Whoa... hold on Xeon, you know I love your intellect, but if you gonna go at my man Harry, you gotta come through me first :ph34r:

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"Whoa... hold on Xeon, you know I love your intellect, but if you gonna go at my man Harry, you gotta come through me first."

Ha! Bro Troy, I'm just asking an honest question based on the content of the post.....

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Harry has been holding it down.  

Seriously though, if you can get by the all caps, Harry often serves up some gems.  Actually, I used to just ignore Harry's posts, but then one day one of the long terms posters here (Chris I think) complemented Harry on a poem he wrote.  I'd completely missed the poetry.  At that point I checked myself, because I allowed myself to miss something simply because I insist on reading text with line breaks and in mixed case.

In the past I've reformatted his poetry to make it more accessible to others, in much the same way I often go behind an authors and add additional information about their books. 

It takes all types to keep a foum interesting.  But the most important ones, are the ones who share their thoughts, and Harry has been a consistent poster over they years.

 

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The plan seems to either destroy Black boys OR turn them into girls.

I frequent the college campuses from time to time and I'm amazed at how many young Black men are ultra-feminine in their demeanor.
I'm not talking sexual orientation because there are plenty of masculine homosexual men.
I'm talking about "mode of operation".....how you talk, walk, and just carry yourself in general.

I'm not a trained psychologist but Dr Umar Johnson and the late great Dr Frances Welsing  respectively has and had some very interesting theories on the effeminization of Black boys.
 

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"Seriously though, if you can get by the all caps, Harry often serves up some gems.  Actually, I used to just ignore Harry's posts, but then one day one of the long terms posters here (Chris I think) complemented Harry on a poem he wrote.  I'd completely missed the poetry.  At that point I checked myself, because I allowed myself to miss something simply because I insist on reading text with line breaks and in mixed case."

Well, all I can say bro Troy is that his all cap posts sound like disjointed rambling and out bursts that come from someone with  Asperger's or  Tourette's syndrome. Not trying to sound harsh but...well..that's what it sounds like (IMO). But I am a fair guy and you are a good man so I will...ya know...digress.....

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The dances today are really close to vouging in the way they are done and no one really seems to notice. The Quan, The Whip and Nae Nae, all look like what the gay male community has been doing since the 70s in disco and in the fashion world. As far as the men being effeminate, if no male tells them what they are doing looks like what a woman does they will never know. I didn't realize that I got in the car like a woman until I was in the Navy. We were all in front of the barracks listening to music and I was about to get in my car and leave. Instead of placing one foot in the car and then sitting down, I actually turned my back and sat on the seat with both legs together and then turned and placed both legs into the car; like I was wearing a dress.

I laughed like my mom, and I still hold my hand high on my hip when I'm tired after playing ball or running. It's an unconscious act that represents my being raised by my grandmom, mom and sister. I never had a man in the household so I unconsciously modeled the women around me. What is interesting is that I never even paid attention to it until that day outside of the barracks when one of my shipmates said, "Man, you get in the car like a bitch." I stopped and looked and responded, "Fuck you bro. The hell I do." All of the fellas said, "get outta the car and get back in." I stood up, turned back, sat on the seat and put both feet in the car. Everyone said, "awwwww dammm, that's gay as hell."

That was almost 25 years ago and I remember it vividly. Today I am very aware of how I get in the car and my mannerisms. Basically, I think a lot of the young males are simply doing what they see.

Are they experimenting sexually a lot more? Yep, but when the imagery is so prevalent, there is no longer the same negative stigma associated with being gay. When you can turn on every television show and see same sex kissing just as regular as heterosexual kissing, the natural progression is for people to accept it a lot more. There are more gay kids in schools though and I chalk this up to kids simply finding another clique to be a part of. Kids want to be accepted and the hierarchy of high school is horribly isolating. A lot of kids have no where else to go and be a part of the group so being gay is just another segment of the high school crowd. It's like being a Goth kid, Athlete, Nerd, Teacher's Pet, etc.

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A black male who talks "proper" often comes across as effeminate and doing so is associated with being smart, and being smart is a prelude to attending college where overcompensating to shed the ghetto/thug demeanor could create the effect of diminished masculinity.   -_-

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I can't break it down to the very last compound, but that number is pretty close in my opinion. There are no hard facts to support it, but Cynique is very right about why many of them seem to be effeminate. In order to distance themselves from the perception of Black men, young guys take on personas that aren't considered traditionally manly. 

Easily 3 out of 10 will have mannerisms that are considered suspect. It might be higher especially you witness these kids at games or on the yard and they are doing the dances, etc. Are these guys gay? Probably not and I have no idea of whether they are or not, but the traits associated with women are there.

1. They talk way too much

2. They argue

3. They roll their eyes and will scoff at various comments

Now, these stereotypes are associated with women, but it's guys that are doing it.

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Man it goes even farther guys get earrings in both ears, they go to the hair dresser, they get their eyebrows arched, they have tons of shoes, they expose the butts whil sagging there pants, they don't engage in anything resembling athletics.

Chris that story of getting out of the car always makes me laugh.  For all practical purposes my father did not raise me, but we did not have a car ;-)

I learned how to be a man on the streets, which of course meant I did not learn how to treat a lady properly.  

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Sara
 

Yes, I've noticed the same thing among SOME Black boys in highschool....but not as many.
It's not so much a "change over" that occurs among the individual that turns them from masculine to feminine.......it's more of a WEEDING OUT process.

It appears that many masculine Black males don't make it to college level or if they do they are quickly disheartened and end up dropping out (like I did) because of the very sterlized culture of most colleges today.
Most of us grew up in communities where it's common to "chase" after women and no matter how smart you are academically....it puts you at odds with the culture of todays colleges.

The majority of AfroAmerican males I've met who've actually made it through major universities with a graduate degree seem to fall into 2 types:

-Those of average intelligence but are passive and feminine in thier demeanor.

-Those who are masculine BUT are smart and clever enough to carry themselves in a certain way as to not attract too much attention and can focus on their curriculum.

Ofcourse there are exception, but these two categories seem to be the most prevelant types among the Black American men who seem to do well in college.

But again, to answer your question......
The demographic among Black male demeanor doesn't change...it's that most masculine Black boys end up dropping out of the academic system BEFORE reaching college which is why the more effeminate type seems to be seen.

 

 



Cynique

So we meet again....LOL.

In SOME ways a very smart cereberal person may appear more feminine only because smart people tend to THINK before taking action....so they tend to be less impulsive which some people may ignorantly take to be more feminine.

But this isn't what I'm refering too.

I'm refering to the walk, the talk, the lisp, the shyness, the loss of bass from the voice....just the way so many operate in general.

I'm not even talking about homosexuality, because there are plenty of MASCULINE gay men.
I'm talking strictly how a lot of the young men I'm seeing carry themselves regardless of their sexual orientation or even level of intelligence.

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Again, I want to make it clear.....

I'm not saying smart Black men in general are more feminine.

Nor am I saying all educated Black men are feminine.

There are plenty of exceptions, but my observations speak to the WEEDING OUT process contemporary academia.

In TODAY'S society being aggressive and hitting on women are seen as in appropriate and even "hostile" and because a lot of Black males grew up in communities where this is common and almost expected, even if they are of average and above average intelligence if they behave in this type of manner they are targeted and tossed out of academic institutions.

Where as the more reserved, passive, feminine acting Black male who does what he's told, doesn't argue or show aggression, and doesn't "bother" the girls in school focusing only on his studies....does well.

He is seen as more acceptable and easier to get along with.

On the other hand, White males can fight, get drunk, chase girls around sexually harassing them and they often get a pass as "just being boys" and acting out of youth.
There aggression isn't punished by academia the way Black male aggression is.

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2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


Cynique



In SOME ways a very smart cereberal person may appear more feminine only because smart people tend to THINK before taking action....so they tend to be less impulsive which some people may ignorantly take to be more feminine.

But this isn't what I'm refering too.

I'm refering to the walk, the talk, the lisp, the shyness, the loss of bass from the voice....just the way so many operate in general.


 

I am not talking about contemplative intellectuals, I'm talking about good students, who know how to use the correct grammar that enables them to speak well.  In eschewing  slang and Ebonics, they tend to sound effeminate when compared to hood rats.  It's like how guys with English accents sound gay.

Anybody who fits your description as far as dress and manner and timidness are concerned sounds like they may be latent homosexuals.  Others might just be beat down from having been bullied. 

 

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I don't know who you are asking this question to, or attempting to engage with your question. Take the time to go out and observe for yourself. Look at what's happening around you. Any information I give you is in regard to me working in education and on a daily basis being around the group that buys what I sell primarily. In the malls and in my daily interaction with kids where I'm picking up sneakers, it's clear that guys carry themselves in a way that can be described as effeminate. The mannerisms and actions, the way they dance and speak in many instances. I mean when you have NBA players dressing up as women in commercials there is a clear image of how men are being told that it's okay to have mannerisms that are stereo-typically associated with gay men. 

I can only speak for what I see, as everyone who is making these statements can only speak to what they see. If you aren't seeing it, then you aren't seeing it. If you agree with Cynique, cool. Keep it moving and be done with the issue.

All I know is I took my family out last night and I didn't even bring up this dialogue that's taking place and my wife without any idea of what we've been saying glanced ahead of us at three black men, shook her head, and said, "I would probably be single if I had to date today." 

I asked her why she said that and she pointed to the three black guys. I was holding my daughter's hand and hadn't really paid attention to it, but when I looked at the dudes I understood what she was saying. This wasn't a one time thing while we were out. Most of the guys hanging out had this "style".

Take what Troy said as an example. We didn't have both ears pierced, we wore straight legged jeans but the goal was not to have our asses out. We danced and it wasn't an imitation of what gay men in the fashion world did. We didn't wear lip gloss or keep shiny chapstick readily available, we didn't roll our eyes or exhale at every response we didn't like. We didn't excessively groom (which looks funny to read)... but I'm sure you get the picture. We can't or won't know if these guys are gay and that is the point. We are at a time now where androgyny and metro sexual is a part of the norm so it only stands to reason that a lot of the men are okay with this.

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Chris, the meticulous men who Pioneer,Troy and you describe are referred  to  as "Meterosexuals", a term that has been around for over 10 years. What I currently notice about black young men is how so many of them have "swag".   Whatever the case, it should be obvious that not having male role models can take its toll on black men and, in some schools of thought, their having a dysfunctional relationship with an absentee father can be a precursor to homosexuality. But I don't think the feminine straight guys are just limited to black men. Lesbianism also seems to be growing more common - among women of all colors.  

Who knows? Maybe all of the interchangeable sexuality is the next stage in the evolution of the species known as Homo Sapiens, - no pun intended.      

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Sara

So 30% of young black boys in high school and 30% of young black men in college are not gay, rather lisping ultra-effeminates?


????

Did you even COMPREHEND ANYTHING of what I just told you?

First of all, where are you coming up with this "30%" business?
I didn't mention any percentages....

Second, whether you agree or not with what I said....if you UNDERSTOOD what I said the you wouldn't be applying the same percentage to both high school AND collegiate males in your question.

I said that there is a HIGHER percentage of effeminate Black men in college than in highschool because the weeding out process prevents many masculine men from even making it TO the college level.

How many young men can function successfuly in an environment where they're EXPECTED to suppress their natural inclinations and act like eunuchs?

Third, there is a DIFFERENCE between men who are effeminate and men who are gay just as there is a DIFFERENCE between women who are masculine and women who are lesbian.

One is how you ACT....the other is who you LIKE.

I have no idea about how much of the demographic GAY Black males make up on high school and college campuses because I don't go around asking men who they're sleeping with. But I can clearly SEE how men behave and carry themselves so it's easier to come to my conclusions regarding thier demeanor being feminine or masculine.

 

 

 

 


To say that a young black boy or man is effeminate (and ultra? WTF???) because he's well-spoken, mannerable, civil, and subjugates his thug impulses to earn a diploma or degree makes about as much sense as a female looking to marry a dope, pimped-out bad azz who goes to work every day, pays his bills on time and takes care of his kids.


I agree.
 

 

 


Now if I've gotten the wrong of it, please, give an example of a "masculine" young black male and define his behavior vis a vis an ULTRA-effeminate young black male.... who is not gay.


It appears that you HAVE gotten it wrong so......

Example of an MASCULINE young Black man talking:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_ZmM7zPLyI

 

Example of an EFFEMINATE young Black man walking and talking:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nS9raqeoiks


You can see a clear difference in how these two men carry themselves.
If you look at the brother in the second video, a good example of feminine behavior is the exaggerated sway of his hips.

Why would a man's hips "sway" when he walks?
Mechanically it makes no sense.






 


CD

Like you...I don't understand how Sara can live in this society and actually QUESTION my statement about so many effeminate Black men occupying positions in both academic institutions as well as corporate America.

It's one thing to be tolerant of those who are different than us, but it's another thing to turn a blind eye to it and pretend that it doesn't exist and is all a delusion.

A few Black men being feminine in their demeanor isn't a problem, it's natural. But when you start seeing the percentage grow higher and higher in society you MUST ask yourself why is this happening and why now?


Intelligent people closely observe their environment and carefully note any changes.

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Guest, please create an account so that you may post without me having to approve it.

-------------------

Here is another anecdote along the vein of being raised in a female headed household.  When I was a kid my competitive spirit was discouraged.  We could not play a simple board game without my mom and sister accusing me of being too competitive or taking the game too seriously. They played for "fun" I played to win, that was how I had "fun." When I'm around other men this is NEVER an issue.  I think the typically masculine trait of competitiveness is discouraged by women, while a man would nurture the trait and teach a boy how to use it.

Female run schools also discourage this attitude.  Everyone is rewarded for simply participating.  Sure this may protect young boys little egos but it does little to prepare them for the real world.

This is not to say the women can not raise boys into strong men, but this requires an exceptional woman.  Today it is even having a man in the household is no guarantee; for men themselves were raised by women.  Of course young women raising boys, who were not raised by a positive male (or no male at all), further compounds the problems.

Plus the rules change every 5 minutes.  In one generation tattoos were for gang members and sailors, today teenage girls are getting their bodies covered in them.  Today men can wear hoop earring in both ears without raising any eyebrows.  Today if you don't celebrate the idea of two men getting married, in a church, you are a homophobic Neanderthal.  Of course we can go on and on with these.  

While some of these changes may be liberating, most people are just confused, as the culture is in a constant state of flux.  What is wrong today will be perfectly acceptable tomorrow.

So while this situation may not be the direct result of a conspiracy, the results would still be no different.

 

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@Pioneer1 I gave the statistic that Sara is referring to. What I was doing was saying that 3 out of 10 boys on a high school campus and on college campuses are carrying themselves in what can be considered effeminate ways. So she was asking me about that. I made sure to tell her that this is my observation and should not be taken as the standard or as factual for all cities. It is only what I observe, because it seemed to me that she was missing my point which was too many of these kids are acting like or carrying themselves with "feminine" swag. It has a lot to do with everything you said up above. I was talking with my wife today and she said something that I had mentioned, and you mentioned, these dudes don't even realize they are carrying themselves in effeminate ways. If you don't know you can't fix it. Like I said, I didn't know I got into a car like a woman until someone told me.

The irony is that the video you posted of the gay dude is an exaggeration of the way women walk. Women don't even behave like that.

You know the more I study, the more I realize that there has always been a large gay population in the Black community. I mean many of our major writers were gay, but they weren't so feminine that it was easy to decipher what their orientation might be. That is the problem... gay now seems to mean that you have to carry the characteristics of the sex you are attracted to. Men act more like women and women act more like men. I've always wanted to ask someone gay why this is necessary if being homosexual is about the attraction to someone else. Why does a person forego the stereotypical qualities associated with their sex? I don't ever ask because these questions always lead to confrontation and I'm not that interested in fighting through the confrontation to ask, lol.

But... I really do want to know why a gay woman takes on the "male" persona? And why the gay man takes on the "female" persona? (I do know that not all gay people do this.)

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I thought the issue was that straight black men were unconsciously starting to act a tad effeminate.  That's different from flamboyant behavior on the part of black men who are actually gay. Obviously the  flaming male in the video is flaunting his gayness but this has nothing to do with a trend toward straight black men losing their masculine demeanor.  Unless this distinction is made, everybody is not on the same page. 

I guess Gays, like Straights, come in all varieties, Chris. 

 

 

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Troy

I remember as a kid in the 6th grade I was put out of class because the teacher said I kept slouching instead of sitting "properly".
She kept pointing at a girl and telling me to sit with my legs squeezed together like her.
I wasn't articulate enough at the time to explain to her why it is highly uncomfortable and in some cases painful for boys to sit like that, I just wouldn't do it.
And when I went to the Principle's office she also kept telling me to do the same and I finally told her that I couldn't sit like that because "I got something down there that won't let me do it".
As I said, a lot of boys are being punished just for being boys....most of whom by nature are biologically hardwired to be aggressive and push boundaries. But Black boys seem to be especially targeted in a White female dominated educational system.

 

While some of these changes may be liberating, most people are just confused, as the culture is in a constant state of flux. What is wrong today will be perfectly acceptable tomorrow.

That's why I've decided to take a NEW approach social acceptance and say we should tolerate almost EVERYTHING in society as long as it's between consenting adults and doesn't directly harm anyone other than the practitioner.

 

 

CD
 

The irony is that the video you posted of the gay dude is an exaggeration of the way women walk. Women don't even behave like that.

This is true.
It seems to me like he was going out of his way to get attention.

I've noticed that some feminine acting Black men behave as such as if to tell society,
"I just soft and silly, nobody to worry about.
I pose absolutely no harm to you."

Kind of like Black men who won't stand at a bus stop or train station if there is a White woman there alone for fear that she may be afraid of HIM.




You know the more I study, the more I realize that there has always been a large gay population in the Black community. I mean many of our major writers were gay, but they weren't so feminine that it was easy to decipher what their orientation might be. That is the problem... gay now seems to mean that you have to carry the characteristics of the sex you are attracted to. Men act more like women and women act more like men. I've always wanted to ask someone gay why this is necessary if being homosexual is about the attraction to someone else. Why does a person forego the stereotypical qualities associated with their sex? I don't ever ask because these questions always lead to confrontation and I'm not that interested in fighting through the confrontation to ask, lol.

There is a gay population in EVERY race and nationality just like there are LEFT-HANDED people.
That's why when that Iranian president came to America a few years ago and claimed that they didn't have gays in his nation (Iran) like in America the audience nearly laughed him off the stage.

At various times in history it may unsafe or seen as unacceptable in society, so you may not hear about them....but they are there.
In societies where homosexuality is forbidden and punished, a lot of homosexuals join the CLERGY and become priests or nuns to help hide their lack of interest in the opposite sex.

 

But... I really do want to know why a gay woman takes on the "male" persona? And why the gay man takes on the "female" persona? (I do know that not all gay people do this.)

I do believe that in many cases it's NATURAL for some straight people to just operate in a way more common to the opposite sex, so you'll see a straight man who likes women but has a lisp and bashful demeanor.
But as far as the exaggerated masculine or feminine behavior...I think it's often a homosexual person trying to make a SOCIAL STATEMENT.
A lesbian doesn't have to put on a wife-beater and tatoo herself all up and sag and spit to be a lesbian, all she has to do is go out and get a woman.
But she'll do all of that as a way of drawing attention and letting either society at large or a targeted audience know this is who she is and how she gets down.

A Black man who grows up in a hard ghetto may exaggerate female characteristics to let the local thugs know that he poses no threat and thus doesn't need to tested or challenged.



Cynique

I thought the issue was that straight black men were unconsciously starting to act a tad effeminate. That's different from flamboyant behavior on the part of black men who are actually gay. Obviously the flaming male in the video is flaunting his gayness but this has nothing to do with a trend toward straight black men losing their masculine demeanor. Unless this distinction is made, everybody is not on the same page.

Well I'm not sure about the various points other people were pushing but MY point was that modern academia seems to make it hard for masculine Black men (gay or straight)

There are plenty of gay Black men who are masculine. Spending a week of observation of any state penatintary will prove that statement.
It's not so much the gay or straight Black man whom society fears, it's the MASCULINE Black man (aggressive, bold, risk taking) that seems to be often targeted.

But as far as the flamboyancy.......
As I told CD, that's usually a gay man acting in an ultra feminine way just to get attention and make a social statement. It's purposely exaggerated for that effect.


 

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“so you'll see a straight man who likes women but has a lisp and bashful demeanor.”

I don't know about that one @Pioneer I'd be willing to bet this is exceedingly rare; like 4 standard deviations for men with those characteristics.

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Homosexuality is a very complex sexual dynamic.  Professionals haven't even been able to sort out everything about it.  So, Pioneer, you'd do well to preface your conclusions with an "IMO".  Surely you don't think we didn't know that homosexuality doesn't discriminate.  It is a "deviation" that has even been observed in animals. There are so many mysteries about homosexuality like how it's not uncommon, in the case of fraternal male twins, for one twin to be gay, while the other is straight, and there are other variations on homosexuality in both male and female twins which support the idea of sexuality originating in the womb. 

I find it interesting  that gender is considered different from sex because it is a distinction associated with inanimate objects, most specifically clothing; i.e. the gender of a frilly dress is female. and the gender of a tweed suit is male but this is only because society has decided this to be the case, just another  example of how much our "norms" are dictated by Society.  As for teachers imposing girlish behavior on boys, this doesn't hold up when it comes to "tom-boy" girls.  Nobody pressures them to act masculine, they just do it.  It's all very complicated and I don't think you can generalize, especially because one person's interpretation of effeminate behavior may differ from another one's. 

So, who knows? IMO, the old saying about "the same fire that melts wax, makes steel hard" can, in a way, apply to school boys  because they apparently develop differently under the same circumstances, and this leads to the the old controversy about which is more influential? Heredity? Or environment?  No doubt, however, the lines separating the sexes are becoming blurred and the LGBT community is growing.

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Cynique, to be clear:  If a girl is a a tom-boy, and a boy is effeminate by nature that is one thing.  What I am saying is that women teachers, often without realizing it, reward feminine behavior and punish masculine behavior.  

Of course people are on a broad spectrum with it comes to behaviors and sexuality, you will find men who exhibit what would be considered traditionally feminine behavior.  There are some guys that don't have an aggressive or competitive bone in the bodies.  They would have enjoyed playing board games with my mom and sister, but you would want them on your football team.  These guys would probably do very well in your garden variety female run and administered classroom.

Oh and sexulaity is indeed distinct from gender.  Which is why you have people who are homosexual after a sex change.

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Well, Troy, this is where we get into the abstraction of gender as opposed to sex.  What is feminine behavior?  Not slouching in your desk, paying attention in class, and not slurring your words or bullying others?   I wasn't aware that sitting up straight is a strain on males; it's certainly something the military stresses.  

Is being aggressive, disrupting the class room, not doing your homework, and sassing the teacher masculine behavior that should be tolerated.

Behaving yourself has nothing to do with sex or gender, it's just being disciplined. IMO  

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Feminine/masculine behavior is defined by the culture.  As discussed these cultural norms are changing rapidly in the US, and vary from region to region.

If we are lucky our nature dovetails well with the culture. Men are typically stronger than, in a culture in which we hunted animals for our very survival this was a great characteristic to have, today the only benefit might be in attracting a mate, for the wimpiest dude in the world can go shopping and score dinner.

In the classroom, kids need to run around and burn off energy.  Sitting behind a desk all day is hard for all kids but even harder for boys (not in all cases but on average).  

So it really depends upon how you define "behaving" yourself. In the anecdote cited by Chris; does it make sense to punish a boy for not sitting with his knees together?  We can define noncompliance with this rule as misbehaving, or lacking discipline.  But more often than not these rules made up by women often conflict with very nature of boys.

Also I'm not for one second saying that we all have to do things that go against our nature we do, but Black boys are asked to do it more often than any other group I suspect.  Besides the gender bias, they also have to contend with the race bias--which is substantial. 

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1 hour ago, Troy said:

In the classroom, kids need to run around and burn off energy.  Sitting behind a desk all day is hard for all kids but even harder for boys (not in all cases but on average).  

 

Maybe.  But they don't seem to have any trouble sitting down playing video games all day.  Nobody goes outside and runs around  anymore.

Boredom probably attributes to the restless behavior of a lot of young boys rather than an impluse to act like males. Teachers might have better luck if they make learning more interesting.

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Good points

Kids sitting around all day playing video games all day simply illustrates is that young boys don't know what is best for themselves.

Sure, video games, TV, and Social media are for more engaging than sitting in front of unskilled teacher with little passion for her the subject matter trying to teach a room full of Black boys she can't relate to and probably don't like very much.

Kids would absolutely run around and play, but who would they play with when everyone else is on Snapchat?

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Troy

I don't know about that one @Pioneer I'd be willing to bet this is exceedingly rare; like 4 standard deviations for men with those characteristics.

Well, let me put it this way.....
I've known men who were married with children AND had girlfriends on the side who talked with a lisp and some behaved in a feminine fashion and you'd think they were gay.  Infact, the rapper Ice-T talks with a lisp and gets his hair done...and claims to be a ladies man.

Now perhaps these men just used their wives and girlfriends as a front to hide thier homosexuality.

Or perhaps they were BI-sexual and went both ways.

However, without absolutely knowing who they were sleeping with I'd have to take it that some straight men have feminine demeanors just like some straight women have "butch" or manish demeanors.
Infact, I've MET straight women who loved men but were very aggressive and man-like in the way they carried themselves.



 

 

 


Cynique

Most of what I'm giving is my OBSERVATION.
It's what I've actually SEEN myself over the years in this society.

So while it may not be absolute science....it's more than just opinion.

Unless a person is lying or hallucinating, what they see/observe should count as fact rather than opinion.

Gender and sex are different because gender (masculine/feminine) has more to do with role playing and social customs, while sex (male/female) is more mechanical having to do with genitalia, secondary sexual characteristics, and edocrinology (hormones).

You can switch genders back and forth all day long, but outside of an actual operation you can switch your sex (male/female) about as easy as switching your race (African/Asian)...lol.


Finally,
Sitting up straight doesn't make a boy feminine.
But trying to force a boy to sit with his legs shut together squeezing his already sensative and developing penis and testicles is down right inconsiderate and cruel.

What if all toilets were taken from school bathrooms and girls were forced to urinate standing up because that was the "proper" way?
See how ridiculous that sounds?

It's just as ridiculous to force boys to do something they weren't designed to do.

 

 

 

Sara

I had decided to leave this convo alone since we're dealing with pure opinion and not quantifiable fact. However, the arrogance of your above "opinion" is rather mind boggling and your conclusion that those who disagree with your OPINION are unintelligent, well..... smh

As I told Cynique.
Most of what I said comes from what I've OBSERVED in this society.
Observation is a key component in the Scientific Method for establishing facts.

So what I've said is more than just opinion, much of it is absolute FACT based on personal observation that can be applied to specific individuals.

I never said you were unintelligent for disagreeing with me.
But if you're feeling GUILTY about disagreeing with me, it's probably your pre-frontal cortex nagging you for ignoring it.....lol.

 

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1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:



Cynique

Most of what I'm giving is my OBSERVATION.
It's what I've actually SEEN myself over the years in this society.

So while it may not be absolute science....it's more than just opinion.

Unless a person is lying or hallucinating, what they see/observe should count as fact rather than opinion.

 

Everything that you pontificate about is anecdotal, Pioneer.  Your "proof" takes the form of people you've known or incidents that you have personally observed over the years.  Your generalizations are not objective but are simply your subjective interpretations which amount to nothing more than the "truth" as you see it, which is untested. 

 

On 2/22/2016 at 10:12 PM, Pioneer1 said:

There are plenty of gay Black men who are masculine. Spending a week of observation of any state penatintary will prove that statement.

 Have you ever been in prison?  If these men were masculine how did you know they were gay?  Just because they had a "bitch" doesn't mean they were gay and if they were the "bitch", it is more likely they'd be acting effeminate.   It would make more sense to simply speculate that while in prison, out of desperation, many masculine men engage in homosexual behavior, but once they get out and have access to women again, they  revert to their straight self.  This is what an "observer" once told me. 

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Cynique
 

Everything that you pontificate about is anecdotal, Pioneer. Your "proof" takes the form of people you've known or incidents that you have personally observed over the years. Your generalizations are not objective but are simply your subjective interpretations which amount to nothing more than the "truth" as you see it, which is untested.


I said nothing of PROOF. Just stated FACTS based on my observations.
Which is anecdotal EVIDENCE to support my argument.

You're right, my observations haven't been tested by you to determine how accurate they are...but if OTHERS (notably CD and Troy on this site alone) as well as countless men and women all over Black America have also noticed the same thing I speak of concerning Black boys being effeminized in this society....the EVIDENCE (anecdotal or otherwise) presented is too overwhelming for even a CYNIC (or Cinque) to dismiss.


 

Have you ever been in prison? If these men were masculine how did you know they were gay? Just because they had a "bitch" doesn't mean they were gay and if they were the "bitch", it is more likely they'd be acting effeminate. It would make more sense to simply speculate that while in prison, out of desperation, many masculine men engage in homosexual behavior, but once they get out and have access to women again, they revert to their straight self. This is what an "observer" once told me.


No, I've never been incarcerated by the grace and blessings of God, but I've known people who have been. And I've also had a job that required me travel to one of the state prisons, so although I wouldn't exactly call it a "stompin' ground" I know a little something about the social behavior inside.  And some of the observers and a few of the "participators" told me something a little different...lol.

Many of the men they are calling "down low" are nothing but masculine homosexual men.
Typical mildly aggressive men who just happen to find other men attractive. And the prison environment gives them just the excuse they need to have sex with other men without the stigma attached to being an openly gay man on the outside. It's not rocket science.  They wanted to do it all along and now they have an excuse to engage.   Some are being raped...but that's not the majority.

It's the same with many priests in the Catholic church and some other religions.
Homosexuality has existed in the clergy for centuries.  If a gay men grew up in a society where homosexuality wasn't tolerated, what else could he do when the community starts pressuring him to get married and produce children?
He joins the priesthood and pretends to be celibate and  "holy".
It's funny how holy people can be when it comes to abstaining from something they didn't want to do anyway...lol.


Which reminds me of another point........
It's funny to hear some women point to their male friends who are gay and applaud them for how "respectful" they are and how much of a "gentleman" they are because they don't stare at women, hit on women, or pressure them or sex.

I find my self constantly reminding them, uh....that's because he probably doesn't WANT sex from you or any other woman.  How can you praise someone for having the discipline not to do something they never wanted to do in the first damn place?

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10 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


I said nothing of PROOF. Just stated FACTS based on my observations.
Which is anecdotal EVIDENCE to support my argument.

You're right, my observations haven't been tested by you to determine how accurate they are...but if OTHERS (notably CD and Troy on this site alone) as well as countless men and women all over Black America have also noticed the same thing I speak of concerning Black boys being effeminized in this society....the EVIDENCE (anecdotal or otherwise) presented is too overwhelming for even a CYNIC (or Cinque) to dismiss.

 

Typical Pioneer double talk and subterfuge.  2 guys on this thread agree with some of the things you declare, along with "countless of men and women all over Black America" -  a vague phrase that could represent as little as 10 or as many as 10 thousand since the number is countless -  agree with your observation. So, according to your spin, this makes it overwhelmingly factual.   You'd make a good used car salesman.  As it is,  in "the world according to Pioneer", you are in the driver's seat and can always be depended on to give tours through a verbal maze of the endless anecdotes and ongoing experiences that you think carry more weight than the anecdotes of other people who don't agree with you. School teachers for centuries have been telling boys to not slouch in their seats, and to curb their aggressive behavior and to pay attention in class. Now after all this time, expecting black boys to  buckle down, shape up and attempt to learn something is being blamed for what avid watchers like you perceive as effeminate behavior.  I don't deny that there may be something to this, I just need some input from professionals who have conducted tests and done legitimate studies on the subject.  

BTW, I noticed you haven't observed the correct spelling of my screen name "Cynique".  And that's a fact.    

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19 minutes ago, Cynique said:

I don't deny that there may be something to this, I just need some input from professionals who have conducted tests and done legitimate studies on the subject.

Me too.  Researchers that I've come across tend to separate gender roles from the biological definition of sex.  Further, these psychologists separate gender roles from gender stereotypes and have found the similarities between the genders are greater than the differences.

 I'm fascinated by this subject especially since I'm a fan of Carl Jung Anima/Animus theory and found much of what Jung wrote represented in my own dreams.  

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Troy/CD


I saw a similar situation of fatherlessness growing up in Detroit, but we were blessed to have both our mother AND father together in our household growing up. This was the late 70s to the early 90s, and at that time in the part of Detroit I grew up in about half of the kids had fathers still at home. Many were latch-key kids where BOTH parents had to work, but a good half still had both parents.

Detroit, like Chicago, New York, and Atlanta had a lot of BLACK upper middleclass and working class neighborhoods where Black people did well and many were quite professional. Which is why the Cosby Show didn't seem "odd" to me, I didn't understand what the controversy was about until I LEFT Detroit and started traveling to other cities and saw how dismal so many Black people lived.

But most of our cousins grew up in the ghetto with NO father.
And so when they came to our home a lot of my cousins kind of looked at my father as a novelty and used him for advice and help.

But I'm going to blame all of this on the fact that Black people in America have been either forced to or voluntarily decided to accept a system that CLEARLY wasn't designed by us or for us to base our male-female and familial relationships on...and the results of that decision have been devastating.

 

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