Cynique

@Pioneer1Ooooh puleeze. Quit your whining and unsubstantiated generalizations about "thousands of women" you know nothing about. Farrakhan advised all of his followers to not vote in the last election and look at the misogynistic racist he helped elect. Why would you cite all of your paternalistic chauvinistic examples and then deny that Obama fits the bill in light of the actual figures Mel provided? Why wasn't Farrakhan helping all the professional women supposedly left bereft by the Obama administration? i have yet to hear any black women of prominence other than his poster girl say that they are where they are because of him. It goes without saying that i or thousands of other black women have never heard of this ava woman. I stand corrected that Mel didn't ask for the name of any black man who uplifted black women to the level of white women. She knew that was asking too much. I have reflected on this thread, and have come to the conclusions that black women collectively are their own best champions. The reason they are not put on a pedestal and cherished, is that black men can't collectively get their own acts together, or get past thinking that white women are the real trophies. I'll let Mel speak for herself.

I never said i wasn't an american. This is what i posted: "The hypocritical united states of amerika is the best of the worst, but unlike you, i will never be one to sing its praises. i was born here but i don't have a patriotic bone in my body and Donald Trump is not my president."

@Pioneer1The 2 women i am talking about in one post by me are the Muslim sister who Farrakhan helped and the teacher you say Booker T. Washington helped. The 2 women I make reference to in another thread of mine are Viola Davis and Beyonce whose cover photos on TIME are what sparked the original debate as to whether they were independent black women beholden to no man. This debate had gotten so entangled that i got caught up in providing an example of one man who launched the career of 2 black women whose fame is international, instead of providing the name of one man whose efforts uplifted black women collectively to a level even with white women. Obviously, it's arguable as to whether this question has been answered.

@Troy the above quote is why i kinda got the impression that you thought Beyonce and Viola regarded a TIME cover as their priority and not being invited for a second appearance on the cover would be of significance to them, something i didn't agree with. Beyonce and Viola are 2 black women whose demograh is not a mainstream white publication, and not getting a second cover will not matter to them.. or do i think either one of these black women will become has-beens because they have both obtained iconic status and have earned a permanent place in the hearts of their fans and followers. Beyonce in particular, like Diana Ross and Halle Berry, will always be a star. Oscar-winner Viola will remain an actress respected by her peers and the industry. These are 2 women who may not have elevated the ranking of black women, but who have, nonetheless, inspired and entertained millions of them, and opened the door for many others to walk through.

America certainly isn't lacking in victims to oppress. There's a whole laundry list of them. And, yes, their oppressors all fit the same description. But there are variations on how stifling the discrimination is. The black community is very possessive of its racist victimhood because it is all-encompassing and something they can't get around That's why they don't want to be allied with other groups who they feel, rightly or wrongly, don't have it as bad as they do. White women in particular do not inspire black empathy and that's who blacks tend to think of when it comes to feminism. Also the black community is notoriously homophobic and its populace doesn't ally themselves with gays. So its possible that a person who is the victim of racism will himself oppress homosexuals or women. The victims each have their own axes to grind, and this dissipates their power. The idea of freedom and justice for all is a lie perpetrated by a Capitalistic Republic masquerading as a Democracy and, aided and abetted by human nature, bias and prejudice will continue to prevail. Alas, Utopia remains as mythical as Atlantis.

You guys act like having their picture appear on a Time Magazine cover is the ultimate goal of these women and that the thought of not appearing on it again later will devastate them. TIME magazine is actually a dinosaur in the magazine business and is not that relevant any more. It is now a skimpy little publication and its news coverage is more digest than in-depth . I'm sure its circulation numbers are down. As has been noted, who it has on its covers helps to increase sales so TIME is more dependent on celebrities then celebrities are on it. Make no mistake about it, Beyonce and Viola are in control when it comes to their careers.

Blacks were, indeed, outraged when pictures of Obama being lynched circulated all over social media. Pictures that push the envelop are meant to offend and provoke. The photographer who shot this pose of Kathy makes no apologies for this shock art, and apparently subscribes to the idea in the quote i previously cited about "all art being political". Kathy Griffin's career is in shambles because of the horrified backlash, She has lost her endorsements, her up coming gig in Las Vegas was cancelled and she was fired by CNN as permanent co-host of their New Years eve telecast. She has profusely apologized but she has now become persona non grata in the entertainment world. C'est la Vie. For some reason or another, i found the graphic picture bizarre but - funny. I've become desensitized i guess. I'm more horrified by real life offenses like the 2 men who were recently stabbed to death by a white supremacist when they came to the defense of the Muslim women he was harassing. I could go on and on listing the terrible things that happen daily that are real life events, not posters meant for the consumption of social media. Trump has only himself to blame for these types of display because he has lowered the bar when it comes to civility in this country.

@Pioneer1 Just because you don't like the responses Mel and i provided doesn't mean they don't have substance. it actually means that Mel's question wasn't tailored to your specifications so you created your own criteria, which when met, did not qualify the 2 women you named as having been black women who were uplifted from the bottom of the totem poll, thanks to black men. Your 2 females are actually just tokens because they wouldn't dare defy the men who made themselves look good by "helping" these women. Unlike Beyonce and Viola, "what's-her-name" and "whoever" are not powerful women but just big fish in little ponds. Beyonce and Viola can pick and choose when it comes to what they do because they are rich, famous, powerful, independent individuals on the world stage who don't have to answer to anyone. Famed author Toni Morrison is another example of this. If you were really on your toes you might've come up with Venus and Serena Williams whose father was behind their world class status and independence. Why is it so hard for you to come up with something other than anecdotal evidence when it comes to Farrakhan who basks in the myth that he has helped blacks other than the sheeple who adhere to his strict demands and keep him wealthy. Apparently you admire him, so you lick his boots. Obviously i don't like him and regard him as just another hustling control freak who feathered his own nest under the guise of being a religious do-gooder. I try to agree with you, Pioneer, but our opinions are just never in alignment.

@Pioneer1 I'm sure white people of all ilk from poor white trash to upscale Republicans agree with your advice to LeBron who spoke the truth when it comes how hard it is for blacks to be liberated from the word "nigger" and all of its connotations. Shame on this black buck for being an uppity nigger who realizes that his dignity is also important. He should jes keep his big mof shut and be glad he's allowed to stay in this half-assed country, instead of being shipped back to Africa. i've come to the conclusion that you are an Oreo, Pioneer. The hypocritical united states of amerika is the best of the worst, but unlike you, i will never be one to sing its praises. i was born here but i don't have a patriotic bone in my body and Donald Trump is not my president.

Just goes to show that no matter how much a black person like LeBron James succeeds, they are still "niggers" to a substantial number of whites. Something loud-mouthed basketball player Charles Barkley needs to realize when he's always taking the side of white policemen and dispensing his conservative Republican drivel. And it also should be noted that the rich and famous but current has-been, Tiger Woods, who tried to divest himself of race, was listed as "black" on his rap sheet after being found passed out in his car from a drug overdose. Everybody is up in arms about Comedienne Kathy Griffin appearing on social media in a picture of her holding a bloody decapitated head of Donald Trump. White liberals are horrified by this as if it's any worse than how hate groups pictured Obama and Michelle all over the Internet. Just recently a noose was found hanging in the new African American Museum in Washington. Donald Trump has made racism acceptable and although he gets criticized for this, he has also solidified his support base with people who want to remind niggers that they are - niggers.

Does the short list of women mentioned by Troy, Pioneer and Del represent examples of the question Mel asked, as to whether any black man has championed the rights of black women and actually helped us inch up higher at last place?" The answer is no. And just like you men don't want to condemn all preachers or leaders because of a few bad ones, why are black women obligated to dismiss Beyonce and Viola who command the loyalty and admiration of many black sistas because they have made it on their own. Nevermind that Beyonce is superficial or Viola ambitious; they have not disgraced or demeaned black womanhood. They are beautiful successful independent sistas. Also it's been reported that they both quietly give back to the black community via financial assistance.

@Pioneer1 Your defense of Farrakhan rings hollow; provides no facts, figures or specifics just some generalities falling in line with a carefully crafted image about a power hungry man who was part of the regime who had Malcolm X assassinated and whose mentor Elijah Muhammad was a lecher who exploited young girls. There are thousands of unsung teachers and preachers and organization who have inspired young black to turn their lives around. There's a black, all boys high school in Chicago where each June, 100 percent of the graduating class has been accepted by a college. And the nation of Islam is in no way affiliated with this inner city school. No, it not uncommon for a leader to lead a life of luxurious leisure off the backs of his faithful followers. You should be a minister yourself, you're always preaching. LOL @Delano Come on guy, is that the best you can do? I'm disappointed. Where was Huey when Black Panther Eldridege was beating the shit out of his wife, Kathleen? The Panthers were notoriously misogynistic. And what's empowering about women feeding children? they do this every day. Or what noteworthy accomplishment did Afeni achieve while babysitting what was left of the Panther party? @Mel Hopkins This request from you: "If you know of any other black man - wait, I'll make it easy ANY MAN who has championed the rights of black women and actually helped us inch up higher at last place - please share. I really want to know because I might have missed his work.," remains unfulfilled, girlfriend.

@Delano I'm curious. What did this macho Black Panther leader do to empower black women?

Amen, or should i say "Awomen", Mel! i was scratching my head, stunned as to how Troy and Pioneer could cite the church in general and an islamic one in particular as being sources of empowering black women! These chauvinistic institutions are rife with sexism, and guilty of captivating and subjugating their tithing, Jesus-loving members while encouraging them to obey their husbands and, as in the case of islam, requiring them to cover their heads, wear white, and humbly defer to their men and even tolerate multiple wives. Puleeze! And what has Farrakhan done for the black community lately, except lead a life of luxurious leisure and surface once a year to stand on a dais and deliver a marathon speech spewing the same old rhetoric. Since i don't know, will someone inform me what noteworthy profitable industries and jobs and economic progress the black Muslims have made, besides selling bean pies, and hawking newspapers, adopting Arabic names, and its menfolk wearing business suits instead of saggin jeans? Yes, i know they have a prison ministry but what are they doing to prevent young black men from being sent there in the first place? Actually Jesse Jackson's Operation Uplift organization in Chicago does a lot in this area but it is not a church and it does have women in its upper echelon. I also don't know anything about Obama's official record on helping black women but i do know that millions of them were inspired by the black woman he chose for his wife, and elevated to the empowering status of first lady. Sistas were also warmed by the devotion and respect he shows Michelle. Also his senior white house staff advisor was a black woman named Valerie Jarrett

@DelanoYou answered your own question. Each one of these ism is different because its victims are specific targets of malicious discrimination. They aren't lumped together because the victims do not have common grievances, and they could possibly be enemies of each other.

Well, in today's vernacular 2 guys who really like hanging with each other are said to be involved in a "bromance". Guys can like, admire and subsequently get same sex crushes on another guy who they've become fond of. That's the reason there is something known as boy's night out, because men enjoy each others company in a jovial atmosphere of camaraderie When i was 14 years old i went off to an interracial summer camp and almost all the girls there would gravitate to a favorite female counselor and develop a crush on her. i never did because the counselors all got on my nerves and i was glad when the 2 weeks was up. A couple of black girls did immerse themselves in this summer camp culture, but most of us black ones found other amusements like teaching each other how to smoke.

The "litmus test" in the past has been that the Gay and Feminist movements could not ride the coattails of the Civil Rights movement because Gays and Women have choices . They could vacillate between being gay and appearing straight, - between being a feminist warrior or a femme fatale sex object. Whereas blacks had no alternative or choice when it came to being black because their skin color automatically guaranteed the discrimination that violated their civli rights. So racism and feminism are kinda like apples and oranges. When it comes to Feminists, black women didn't have to craft a movement to demand equality with men, it was a role thrust upon them and, as Mel implied, they are flexible when it comes to wearing the feminist hat. During my era black women en mass tended to dismiss feminists because of this and because of how these Militant Miz Anns co-opted the cause and wanted to run the show and call the shots, Also there was widespread opposition to lesbians on the part of the black community who believe the feminism movement was primarily made up of them. And, too, some aware black women recalled how the Woman's Suffrage Movement had the gall to discriminate against black women who wanted to be a part of the fight to gain the vote. Beyonce is an intellectual lightweight. When she started out in Destiny's Child she was so inarticulate and terrible at enunciating her speech that she had to be refined. I'm sure JayZ has a hand in guiding her career, as did her father, but that doesn't mean that her marriage is a loveless one. She still strikes me as shallow but she knows how best to showcase her musical talent and shape her public image. She is a member of a profession where this is routinely the case

@Pioneer1Well, sorry, i do have to disagree with you. No, i don't know that marriage among celebrities is a business arrangement.l think celebrities fall in and out of love just like everybody else, and they use pre-nup agreements for their safety nets. Female ones, in particular, are vulnerable because in spite of all their fame they are insecure and in need of being loved for themselves and sometimes even marry poor unknowns. i think JayZ and Beyonce genuinely love each other and this could be reinforced by each knowing that neither one of them married for money. BTW, Beyonce is not that petite. She's 5'6" and has 39" in hips.

Beyonce is very proud of her Creole heritage, but she appears to have no problem embracing her blackness. Her hair is not only not naturally blond, but is not straight either and she sings about "Becky with the good hair", her term for a white girl, on her last album. BTW, this album entitled "Lemonade" centers around her making lemonade out of the lemon of being cheated on by her husband. So all of her beauty and fame didn't keep JayZ's eye from straying. But she was disarmed enough by love to obviously forgve him to the tune of getting knocked up with twins by him. Currently she is flaunting her pregnancy, extolling her body as a source of new life, appointing herself as a goddess of fertility. So to me, Beyonce is more about glorifying womanhood and all of it facets, rather than hard core feminism which seems arbitrary in its demand for equality with men on every level. Since bell hooks is a lesbian, i take her assessment of Beyonce with a grain of salt. i don't believe these females think much of anybody who doesn't adhere to their agenda. I agree with Mel's personal embodiment of feminism as do most black woman i know. I, personally, never had a problem with capable black men being in charge, and capable is the operative word here, one which too often get's compromised by the male ego which in turn, is made vulnerable by the male libido. So in dealing with male leaders I always had a plan B which focused on a capable woman. I do believe that in professions where brawn usurps brains, a job that a woman is not physically equipped to do, is unqualified to do it.

i don't disagree with you anymore than i do any one else, do i, Pioneer? You don't want "likes" so when i agree with you, i don't give you one. The picture of Earl Graves did look familiar to me, but i wasn't sure who it was. i was even wondering if Pioneer was some well known person who'd adopted a screen name.( I don't get using a famous person as your profile picture, rather than just an avatar.) An actual profile picture of me was used during a portion of my feud with sara during which time i retired from the board, Troy. Then i resurfaced and came back with the eye icon. So she knew what i looked like but it didn't make any difference. To her i was always a snuff dippin old lady who wore men's shoes. i can understand people wanting their anonymity but i don't care if anymore sees me, or whether it will influence what i say. i always use being old and crazy as an excuse for my outrageousness. I think the manner in which people present themselves influences me, more than their physical appearance. if they use hair and garb and other embellishments to make a statement, then i take them with a grain of salt. I have a tattoo on my wrist which i got at age 74, and this always invokes curiosity and even disapproval by some people. i've never had anyone of the medical profession who has to take blood pressure, pulse or blood from me who didn't remark about this tattoo. The last time i took a drivers test, the tester was so fascinated that he passed me, although he probably shouldn't have because i was too old to be driving. Cashiers at check-out lines always notice this tattoo and if they're young and male, they think it's cool. What statement am i making by having a tattoo? That i want to carry the flower-crested names of my husband and grandson around with me since they are no longer with us. Getting my nose pierced is on my bucket list, and time is running out. We'll see. i want a diamond nose stud - just because...

@Pioneer1 Is the person in your new profile picture you? Since everybody else is presenting a face, guess i'll go back to showing my mug.

In Hamlet by Shakespeare, this Prince of Denmark is advised: "This above all to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man."

Did a black man take the photos? Is Myles Aldridge black or white? I'm confused.

@Mel. Your conclusions are very deep. There is also a quantum physics principle that something can be in 2 places at the same time and - this has some implications about the illusions of the past, present, and the future. Maybe?.

Didn't somebody once say "all art is political"? I learned something from all of this and that is, the importance of researching something you are arguing about. Since i do agree that everyone 's reaction to the picture was subjective, i am trying to dissect my own reaction. i was kinda thinkin that rather than "art" this was "mischief" and that TIME was messing with black minds, putting them in a Catch 22 position of criticizing a picture of a black woman who looked like - a black woman. I was trying not to fall into TIME's trap and outsmarted myself. But i was right about Viola looking ecstatic, like someone who had just been awarded something and that she was smiling not grimacing.