Cynique

@TroyWell, "i put it that way" because i just wanted to give you and Pioneer a little taste of your own medicine. i know you are luke warm about Obama, and you are entitled to feel that way - just as i am entitled to be luke warm about Farrakhan and not have him stuffed down my throat.

@Pioneer1Why are you so in love with America considering how paranoid you are about it?

Pioneer, and Troy: Obama, your favorite scapegoat, motivated and inspired about 20 million black men to march to the polls and vote for him for president and the result he got was that he won. Yet you continue to harp on all that he didn't do for black folks, in spite of the fact that he did do some things that were beneficial to them.This is also a man who inspired and endeared himself to and lifted the morale of millions of disillusioned black women because he married and cherished a sista and elevated her to the highest female position in the land, enabling her to be a great role model for black females. Yet, you say he did nothing for black women. i am not a rabid fan of the Obamas but what i said about them is "indisputable". So if you don't want Farrakhan put in perspective then stfu about Obama when trying to aggrandize your hero. I previously said that "Farrakhan's accomplishments obviously don't extend beyond the boundaries of his ministry. And i stand by that.

@Pioneer1 Come on. Science is intrinsic. it has no color; maybe its motivation does. A black scientist might be motivated to diligently and exclusively focus his scientific research on a specific disease or tendency that is relevant to his race.The "miracle workers" you cite are not doctors practicing black medicine. They are black doctors practicing medicine and, as in all professions, there are brilliant practitioners among them. A white scientist developed the best treatment for sickle cell anemia because he made it his project. Race is always a factor in research and statistics about disease but the methods applied to reach these conclusions are scientific ones. The science that the Greeks stole from the Egyptians and took credit for didn't change; just the history of who originated it did. Purveyors of folk medicine and natural cures come in all races. The Nazis experimented on the Jews to discern scientific data not jewish data, the same as black people were used as Guinea pigs to learn about human diseases not black ones. Eugenics were more about social injustice than scientific differentiation. Black teachers teach standard education and, if they are good teachers, they filter it through the black experience. But what they teach is basic. Reading is fundamental and 1+1 will always equal 2. You and i will always disagree because you are partial to anecdotal evidence being proof of your generalizations. If you are saying that there should be a field of black doctors exclusively available to concentrate on and treat black diseases, then OK. What i am saying is that this isn't about science, it's about specialization.

I adhere to the simple truism that time brings change, so it makes sense that in view of its history, the earth is going to go through another climate cycle. My personal sentiment is that there are other more pressing and immediate problems than global warming. The infra structure of this country, for instance. It needs to be repaired and updated, an undertaking that could eliminate impending danger and create thousands of jobs in the process. A simple glitch could cause an electrical blackout that would paralyze half the country and create long term chaos. America is crumbling from within. (And this includes its politics. The Democrats are obsolete and the Republicans are a toxic aberration, - a threat to the survival of the United States.) And, of course, the racial climate in this country is a man-made disaster that is eroding the inner cities.

@Pioneer1 Is there a community of black scientists out there doing research that we don't know about? Are you saying that if this isn't the case, there should be such a group? Do you believe that the scientific findings of black scientists would be different from that of scientists of other nationalities?This may be true when it comes to the Humanities but Science is Science. There is no such thing as black physics, black chemistry, black mathematics, black astronomy, black geology. BTW, the medical community now takes ethnicity into consideration when it comes to its research.

@Troy I'm not one to speak for Xeon but he reinforced much of what i said about the MMM. i don't think either of us are blaming the MMM for the present state of the black community. What we're saying is that it had no visible positive trickle down effect on the plight of black men as witnessed by the present state of the black community. So our being unimpressed with Farrakhan carries just as much weight as you and Pioneer being impressed with him. You continue to fault Obama for what he didn't do, while offering vague anecdotal undocumented praise of all the things that Farrakhan did and does do, accomplishments which obviously don't extend beyond the boundaries of his ministry.

Juneteenth is a holiday that should never have to be celebrated or observed. There never should have been 400 centuries of slavery to be emancipated from, an emancipation that turned out to be the gateway to the injustices of Reconstruction. Do you think your president knows anything about Juneteenth and what makes this date significant? And is he more representative of the confedracy or the union in a country where young black men are lynched by cops and the rebel flag still flies in southern states and statues of civil war "heroes" are still revered?

@Pioneer1 i can't believe that it doesn't occur to you that what you accuse black women of can also be applied to black men and their penchant for white women. Why is it that black men can be picky, but black women can't??

What Mel said.

LOL. Right, Funny i didn't realize that you said almost the same thing. It just seemed to me there was no other way. Something or - someone can be broken but still functional through improvisation. .

I have been thinking about what i would do in this situation if i felt it absolutely necessary to stay in it. Finally, i decided that i would sit on the chair and make my own leg the 4th leg while securing myself with my crossed arms resting on the table.

@Pioneer1 Really? An alternative assessment is that single black women looking for a good man are discriminating, and a great percentage of the black dating pool is made of up of men whose fathers haven't schooled them on what constitutes being a good man because they don't know themselves, and these types are considered "rejects" by black women. So, as usual, sistas can't win for losing. @Linda Chavis Hi girlfriend! How ya doin? Good to hear from you!

Well one person's constructive criticism is another one's hyper-criticism. You have a right to freedom of speech but you don't have an inalienable right to think a woman's gives a damn about adhering to your personal standards. Black women have earned their independence and it their inalienable right to dismiss the opinion of men if they so choose. And you do have to earn the right to marry a woman. It's not a given. Don't couple wedding a woman with protecting one. BTW, there a word for what you describe your self as being. it's called a "bachelor."

@Pioneer1 Well, your first mistake was to say that i was making your point. We should've let it drop at that. My mistake was that i didn't know what i was arguing about because we seemed to have been going in circles almost to the point of mixing apples and oranges. Next time you come out with one of your revelations i'll just say, "so what else is new?

A very interesting and informative discussion! i tend to focus on how bad things are going in the inner cities and gloss over how well black entrepreneurs and investors are doing. along with the black middle class, in general. . Guess it seems more socially-conscious to gripe about the have-nots instead of the haves, especially since Trump is representative of how the rich get over by oppression and exploitation. I was interested in Delano's conclusions about global warming because this is a subject that i find myself feeling guilty over not caring about. It just doesn't phase me. There are so many more pressing issues and immediate problems to worry about, as far as i'm concerned. Yet others are just fanatical about this "danger"; mostly white people. Just like they are the ones so into animal welfare. They go crazy over anything bad that occurs to bears or sharks or gorillas or dogs or any endangered species. Unless the endangered species happens to be young black males.

I just recently read an article that said, contrary to popular belief, children should not be the most important thing in a marriage. Parents should take care of their needs first because this makes them better parents and that children are the ones who need to learn self sacrifice because this will prepare them for the real world. The guy who wrote this, said this is the way it used to be, before children became accessories and/or objects of worship by their parents. I would add that children need love and guidance and this does not necessarily mean they have to be center of their parent's universe, or conduits for these parents to lead their own lives through. What i learned about marriage is that it usually isn't a 50-50 proposition. The roles eventually sort themselves out through trial and error until it is determined who is best at being charge of what, and this doesn't necessarily come out even. And this is one reason experts say marriage is something you have to work at. Marriage is a merger between 2 people and the merger becomes an entity that takes on a life of its own and reflects the character of your partnership. Sometimes it isn't worth the trouble. But it helps if you try to keep your passion for each other alive and learn to laugh together and, last but not least, - learn to like each other. My husband eventually became my best friend, and now my kids are more like my siblings than my offspring because we are good friends. At my 80th birthday party, i looked around the crowded room at my children, their children, and their children's children, and realized that if it wasn't for me, none of those present would've been alive. That's was kinda fulfilling because they're a pretty decent bunch; diverse, but decent.

@Mel Hopkins that was quite a testimony you shared with us about your love life, certainly in keeping with your atypical black experience, something that you have shaped and which has shaped you with the aid of your self awareness and insight into human nature. It seems so simple and obvious that if woman wants to snare a man she has to create a need for her by being the personification of what he wants. But this truism can be lost on black women whose self absorption has become a defense mechanism and whose independence can be intimidating to black men and their fragile egos. These men aren't really into the self-sacrifice that black women are called upon to make. And they don't have to be, considering the ratio between eligible black males and the black females in competition for them. So, it is hard out there for a single sista. She might do better to employ reverse psychology by telling a man she's not interested in getting married, thereby making herself a challenge whose mind he wants to change. @Troy Xeon may have been a little hard on you. i don't think you hate black women, but you do hate the media and you showed your love for black women with your implication that TIME was exploiting Viola Davis who did, after all, consent to the pose and the artistic concept of her TIME cover. I don't know that black men have earned the right to judge how black women decide to have themselves portrayed. @Del i think you make an important point about how chemistry between 2 people can transcend all of the racial overtones and psychological implications and sociological influences of the black mating game. Some times people just click! (Maybe because they knew each other in another life. )

@Pioneer1Well, you were the one who said i was making your point and that was my point, now you're backtracking and trying to do damage control, losing yourself in a maze of semantics and contradictions. You can contend til you're blue in the face and i will continue to cast a jaundiced eye at your generalizations and your insistence that you know how all gay men think and, further, that you can speak for all straight men - and not back this up with something other than some anecdotal theory you conjured up in StarBucks because you are fixated on assigning certain traits to men and women and gays and straights, and blacks and whites, - while not possessing a degree in anthropology. i'm trying to give straight men the benefit of the doubt in the hopes that they are not as brutish and thick-skulled as you are portraying them to be. Anybody is capable of distinguishing between a mental assessment as opposed to a physical or financial one. A straight man may not want to screw such a guy but i firmly believe that they recognize a good specimen of manhood when they see one. or am i dissuaded by your opinion that a straight man wouldn't understand what a women would see in a brilliant or rich man who is not physically appealing. If they can't, they are in denial. And, everybody of all sexes and persuasions wonders what their ex-mate sees in the rival who has stolen the object of their affection away, because they are blinded by jealousy. You're skating on slippery slope when you make your stringent conjectures. So we have to agree to disagree.

@TroyWell, right off the bat, you make an subjective statement about the engagement between the posters on this board, and it gives a clue as to how black men and women see things. You said that you were attacked by us women for saying the photo of Viola was racist and that we accused you of hating on back women. Not exactly true. I, myself, was saying that you guys considered a smiling picture of a typical looking dark-skinned black woman as a caricature and posted a grotesque picture of "Wanda" and other coonish black characters in an attempt to make your point, blaming the media instead of your preconceived notions of how black women should be made to look in order to win white respect.To me, this gives a clue as to how black women are always on the defensive and black men are insensitive to them and hyper-sensitive to white motives. i always use my family as a test group when trying to glean information because this group is a made up of all types. So i will share the feed back i have gotten over time about the black man/black woman schism. My single, very attractive 40-something daughter is the first source for my observations of this subject. She's an Account- Exec for ComEd which is one of the regional electric companies that fall under the giant Exelon Energy Corporation umbrella. She makes about $90,000 per, plus a big year-end performance bonus, owns her own home and another house, a foreclosed property which she got for peanuts, and now rents out. She drives a BMW and a Road Ranger, all of these acquisitions spanning about a 10-year period. She came close to marriage twice but never took the plunge, a decision she was later glad she made because her perspective grooms turned out to be "losers". She has no regrets about never marrying. Most of the men she dates are not single but partners in unhappy marriages. She has 2 girlfriends and several co-workers that are pretty much in the same category as she is. What they say is that all the good guys are gone, most of them married to high school or college sweethearts who they "married in haste and are now repenting in leisure/boredom", marriages kept together by children. Other prospects include divorced men who all seem to be enjoying the player lifestyle, taking advantage of the 18 to 1 odds. These women say, the longer you wait, the more picky you become, more set in your ways. The also say that looks and color do matter, claiming the many black men are color-conscious and not great fans of heavy women. On the other hand, these "divas" don't like nerds or wimps, prefer guys with swag, a decent-paying job, a car, and good bedroom skills, - dudes who don't seem to be that plentiful. They also are leery of control freaks who can also be physically abusive, or egocentrics who can't handle rejection. .White women are their nemesis when it comes to the dating pool. So, yes, the conclusion that black women can't find good men seems to be true. Considering the odds, a black woman would really have to be a superstar to land even a Mister Alright . Black guys, however, have the luxury of marrying up, snaring professional financially-secure women. desperate to get married and ready to settle. Once again poor sistas get the short end of the stick. My other older daughter is divorced and currently in a casual relationship. Her only comment on this subject is that any black woman who is blessed enough to have found her "Boaz", has God to thank for this. My middle-aged bachelor son recently told me that the woman he was dating informed him that she asked god for guidance and he told her not to marry him. He seemed more miffed that disappointed. i just laughed preferring not to tell him i agreed with her decision. My ghetto homeboy 26 year-old grandson who has 2 baby mommas, confides that he wishes he could "pull" a nice girl instead of the "thots" who give them their numbers in the drive-thru at the fast food restaurant where he works. He said he's tired of the promiscuous young girls who make themselves available to him, sending him nude photos thinking nothing of not being sure what his last name is, verifying it only in case they want to tag him when they post explicit pics on FaceBook. My 20 year old good boy Paramedic intern grandson simply says he prefers Hispanic girls. My 13 year-old great grandson, echos this, saying black girls are too loud and bossy. My other 20 year old computer whiz grandson says he hasn't made up his mind about what he likes but has many online friends who, like him,suspect they are asexual and are perfectly content to be so. My granddaughter, his pretty 18 year-old class salutatorian sister, is on her way to Indiana State University in the fall and has been so sheltered i can only hope her going to an almost all-white high school will not hamper her interaction with black kids and black guys in particular at college. She is being encouraged to make friends of her own race and get to know her own people. Welcome to 2017, Folks!

@TroyWell, i maintain that the only thing i learned from the media about Farrakhan was that he was very anti-semitic and this did not offend me. The FOI thing was heard in passing from a black guy who heard it from another black guy. Because you and Pioneer continue to blitz me with all the "good things" this man has done, and then turn around and squelch and downplay anything that doesn't reinforce your grandiose claims is something that should be noted when it comes to my tendency to blow you off. ( helping people lower their blood pressure and buy a house and organizing meetings with gangs that apparently produced no results. WOW! BTW, how many major black newspapers are left in this country?) I'm sure Farrakhan has done a lot of good for his converts and followers. I question whether this has had a trickle down effect on the black community-at-large and i concede that this is not necessarily his responsibility. The manipulated murder "rate" in Chicago may be down but the gun violence and crime commission is not, Carjacking and robbing people of their iPhones and credit cards are epidemic and young black teenagers are the perpetrators. Memorial Day 12 black people were shot at a gathering. Not a day goes by when a black person isn't shot and/or killed in the city. Children are frequently innocent victims of crossfire You continue to make the media the scapegoat for everything but the black newspaper columnists in Chicago tell it like it is. Black people are not that naive or misled. They recognize their enemies and what is not in their best interest. They are not bamboozled by the politicians, and there is a growing consensus among them as to who, besides the cops, must share the blame for what's happening, and it is the poor parenting of these juvenile delinquents and FaceBook, which is an enabler for people up to no good. There are a lot of small grassroots organizations and churches trying to take things in their own hands and provide alternatives to wayward boys. The leaders involved with this are who are relevant in these troubled times and, ironically, a Chicago Catholic priest who is white is among them. Was there any question in your mind that i wouldn't agree with Farrakhan's rant on the video you posted? Isn't what he said what i've been giving as my reason for being disenchanted with America, the land of bigots and bullshit? Farrakhah and i are the same age, so it is not surprising that we feel the way we do.

@Troy I am not an apologist for Obama just like i wasn't an apologist for Hillary Clinton. They are who they are, but they had some visible credentials that i considered better than their opponents and they also had "documented" accomplishments. I am not that into Farrakhan because i am removed from his influence. i don't know any Black Muslims in particular, or any of the alleged millions whose lives have been turned around by them. Or have I seen any programs that they have put in place that have improved things for the inner city blacks. I do know that Farrakhan admittedly looked the other way when the decision was made to assassinate Malcolm, and he gives long rambling speeches and that he organized a Million Man march that was all style and no substance and he plays classical violin. And i have heard from other blacks that the FOI members intimidate rank-and-file followers who don't get with the program.. What is it you're saying that i got from the media? Yes, everybody has their flaws and no leader is perfect, including the ambitious opportunist Barack Obama who was, indeed, a president who was black man, not a black man who was president. He, like Farrakhan, was glib and charismatic and had a large devoted following of black people. Martin Luther King and Malcolm X were also charismatic eloquent leaders who inspired huge, faithful followings. Then, there's the smooth articulate hustlers Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, .. And, of course, Black Panther firebrand .Fred Hampton. Yet, in the year 2017, the black underclasses are regressing, their own worst enemies, the ongoing victims of a system that remains broken. Soooooo, in my quest to be a truth-seeker and a realist, i just look at the big picture and am no longer inspired to get excited about any famous black leader. (And living in the close proximity of Chicago and the daily toll of blacks killing each other, really reinforces my nihilism.) Farrakhan's rant in that video resonated with me because i agree with what he said, as anybody who respects the truth would, and this is why i'm detached from this country, unlike other blacks who doggedly continue to hope that they will win the love of America and are grateful for being allowed to live and make money and own property here. As has been said, America is a great country, not a good one. Farrakhan could be labeled a black leader, "resting on his laurels". Now you and Pioneer pull yourselves together and quit enabling my iconoclasm.

@Pioneer1What point are you trying to make by posting pictures of 2 physically ugly men? Since what i implied and what you claim is also your point, this point being that perception of attractivemess is a subtle subjective determination that is in the eye of the beholder, then why even broach the silly subject? Who needs your flawed ambiguous observation that only women and gay men are qualified to judge attractiveness in straight males. If, as you also imply, physical attraction is universal, anybody can judge someone else's attractiveness no matter what their sex or sexual orientation is. A straight man could very well understand what a woman would see in a man that wasn't physically attractive but had a good personality and money, or in a man who had standard good looks like a movie star who was very photogenic. And in spite of your "revulsion", there are some men who might find Gabourey attractive.

I meant 2,000,000, I, made a typo, you made an exaggeration with your figure. The black innercity is in crises, we agree. Where is your savior Farrakhan when we need him??? i repeat: he has no longevity. And you made no point. Obama is not my beloved, and your beloved country of bigots and bullshitters is the reason Trump is in office today.

@Pioneer1Sounds like an opinionated generalization to me. You been hangin out in Starbucks again? Being attracted to a man is not necessarily the same as a man being attractive. A woman can be attracted to a brilliant dynamic man who dresses well, exudes a certain confidence and respires with animal magnetism but who does not have a handsome face. And she may be turned off by an attractive man with handsome chiseled features but who has a conceited cocky demeanor and talks, but can't walk a good game. Some women don't like pretty men and to others, power is a great aphrodisiac. Last but not least, one of a man's most attractive features in hidden in his groin. Size matters. I think there are too many variables and nuances to take your "theory" seriously.