Pioneer1

Different people have different views about what exactly constitutes "corruption".

I was having a conversation with a White man....who considered himself quite liberal and progressive.....a few weeks ago that almost turned into an argument.

He considered himself a Democratic Socialist, supported Bernie Sanders, and also supports that yount Latina woman in New York who is also a Democratic Socialist.

He is of the belief that greed is one of the biggest sins and it's at the root of capitalism and he believed that all money and greed factors need to be removed from politics period.

I happened to see greed....like lust....as MORALLY NEUTRAL and he not only disagreed but refused to even entertain the thought of it being so.

But I see GREED and the strong desire to attain and save up money as just another emotion like happines, ecstacy, fear, ect.....and it can be used for good or bad.

Greed actually can be a powerful motivator to get one out of poverty or raise one from an dependent state to an independent state.

My point is, we must first come to a consensus on what IS corruptions before we start going after what we consider to be corrupt.

On ‎8‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 11:23 PM, Troy said:

 

Perhaps the reason we, as men, find the image unflattering is in reality our reaction to racism

???

Not sure I understand your statement.

Troy

this statement, with all due respect, reflects sloppy thinking. I've exhausted every possible means I have at my disposal to help you understand why, but obviously someone much more skilled than I is needed -- but I doubt that would make a difference, because you very rigid in your opinions.

The statement I made was more than just an opinion, it is an absolute FACT.

Just because something is "man made" and is a construct, doesn't mean it's NOT real or valid.

Buildings are "man-made constructs"...and they are real and people live and work in them.

The ideals of Democracy and Communism are both "man made constructs" but they are realities that affect the lives of millions of people.

Just because the concept of catagorizing people by race is a man-made construct DOES NOT mean it's not real or valid.

Abstract concepts are just as real as tangible objects.

Can you then explain how some "Black" people have more in common, genetically with some white people than other white people.

One of the reasons is because many people who are CALLED "Black" aren't really Black.
People like Beyonce...who we call "Black" but genetically speaking is probably anywhere from 40% to 50% European.

Another reasons is that a lot of White people....especially Italians and Jews....have a Black ancestry.
Most southern Italians could easily pass for Arab and many could pass for Black Africans.

 

Yes most Europeans have a small percentage of Neanderthal DNA, but this does not make them, Neanderthal -- or "white." They are still SPaiens like the rest of us. Maybe if they had 75% Neanderthal DNA it would be a different story.

I think you're raising the bar TOO high with the DNA percentage argument.
I read somewhere that both humans and apes share over 90% of the same DNA.
So if humans and animals are that close in DNA...obviously different races of the SAME species would share an even higher percentage.
 

Chev

And I do agree with much of what you have written. But regarding the term, 'Caucasian' even though I know that today European scholars use this term too, in the description of White people, but I have another deeper understanding about this term too.

I'm not sure of your understanding of the term but when I use it I use it with the understanding that the Caucasian race is called this because of their origins from Central Asia and the Caucasus mountains region.
 

A persons GENOTYPE determines a persons' 'race' based on my understanding.

Ofcourse.
I don't think we disagree (and then perhaps we might) so much as I just think you may be misunderstanding what I'm saying.

Genotype DOES determine a person's race but the PHENOTYPE is just one of the physical manifestations OF the genotype.

In other words a person's physical characteristics is just just one of the FEW physical manifestations of their genes and other aspect of their biology.

A particular gene or allele determines that you will have blue eyes and blonde hair, but you can't see blue eyes or blonde hair in the gene or allele....only when the child is born will that gene or allele make itself manifest.
 

I didn't know she had cancer.
The first time I heard about it was when she was close to dying a couple weeks ago.
I guess she's gone to be with her father C.L. now.

I've been to the church she grew up singing in....New Bethel....several times.
They must have redone it because the church they're showing in the media looks nothing like the old brownstone church I remembered going to the few times I went there.
And it's in a GHETTO...lol.


 

Although I didn't actually MEET Aretha I will never forget the time I was actually NEAR her presence.
Ahhhh man........

I was a teenager and working in a mall.
I heard a lot of people yelling and screaming and foot stomping and things crashing and being knocked over, THEN I saw droves of people running in the same direction.....grown people.
I wasn't sure if they were running TO something or running FROM something....lol.
I thought it was one of those massive mall brawls that happen when you have too many highschool kids there on the weekends.
I asked a security officer what was going on and he said Aretha Franklin was in one of the department stores shopping and her fans spotted her.
The was one of my first introductions at a young age of how much power and influence celebrities have over the masses.

I haven't seen it yet but I plan on it.

I have to admit, they've been making some REALLY good Black-themed movies these past few years.
I think D'Jango Unchained by Tarantino kinda put AfroAmerican directors and producers on the hop.

Made them say if a White man can make a Black movies this good.....WE should be able to.
I've seen Get Out, Detroit, Black Panther, and a few others I've forgotten for the moment and they've all been good.

Also I've been keeping up with the new television show "Black Lightening" which has been REALLY good!
It's so good, I'm suprised they allow it on network television...lol.
In the past they used to keep good Black shows on cable and make you pay to see them.

But there's little doubt in my mind that THIS Spike Lee Joint will be a great one.

Not trying to disrespect this thread, I'm sure the sister can get down in the kitchen but.....

You're a BRAVE man to eat at a restaurant called "Dooky Chase"

Just the name alone invokes images of running around clutching your stomach and trying to find the closest toilet a couple hours after eating there.

I remember this argument.....infact I believe I'm the one who got the discussion going in the first place...but I forgot many of the finer points I was making and don't have the time to run over them because I think much of my argument is in another thread.
However.......

It's not so much that this photo of a dark skinned Viola in red lipstick with her lips curled back and teeth baring in a shocking way is "racist".....it's more that the photo is UNFLATTERING.

Most of the Black women on this board argued that Viola had the right to wear whatever she wanted and pose however she wanted.
I didn't argue AGAINST that right.
Certainly she isn't putting the AfroAmerican community in danger by doing it.

But as I've said before, some things look "natural" and go great together, other things clash.

I believe the Chinese call it "fug shei".....and I'm sure ancient Africans also had a name for it.

Those bright red colors CLASHED with her beautiful complexion and her expression CLASHED with the context of the photo.
She looked more like she was in shock or horrified than actually smiling.

I believe part of my argument was that the racism question may have come in if you consider the fact that Caucasian magazines have a HISTORY of portraying AfroAmerican women in the most unflattering of images, especially the darker skinned ones.

Identifying racism is almost instinctive.
As African people in Western society we almost learn how to "sniff out" even the most subtle forms of racism or disrespect from others even if it's concealed much like some women who have the instinctive ability to sniff out a man who finds her attractive despite his attempts to hide his true feelings.

Well, I suppose I can look at it this way.............

If this issue catches fire to the point that it UNITES most Black men in solidarity around the issue regardless of how vague it may be, then I would consider it a good result.
Not the best or most ideal result, but better than nothing.

However I still believe it MAY be causing more harm than good because it's pissing off a lot of Caucasians who ordinarily would have stayed on the sidelines and NOT support Trump....but because they love this nation and believe in that flag will NOW side with Trump against the players whom they will deem "unpatriotic".

I believe they're needlessly making more enemies.

Although it's ideal that we try to get along with our neighbors and co-workers in order to dwell and operate peaceably among them.......
I don't think we as AfroAmericans should make the mistake in believing.....as too many often do...that we can CHANGE the beliefs  of extremely racist Caucasians simply through dialog or by helping them to "understand" who we are.

Dylan Roof was only 20 or 21 when he had enough hate in him to go to a church and coldly sit up among his victims having service and fellowship with them moments before opening fire and slaughtering 9 of them.

You're dealing with a cold blooded HATRED that conversations and pleas for understanding simply won't cure.



Neely Fuller Jr. said that the relationship between Blacks and Whites in America has historically revolved around the 3T's: Tacky, Tragic, and Terroristic.
He said it doesn't get any better than TACKY.... that shaky, uneasy feeling of  never quite being relaxed around eachother and having to constantly be careful about what you do or say around eachother.
That's not the best way to live.

Rather than living in fear and anxiety trying to live with people who don't like you, sometimes the best solution for us is to STAY AWAY from them and have our own communities where we can dwell among eachother in peace and prosperity.
 

Troy.

man made constructs like race have no basis in genetics.

It doesn' t matter if it's a "man made" construct or a NATURAL construct....if it's based on reality it's valid.

Race is based on PHENOTYPE and a person's phenotype is determined by their genes.

Chev

I personally use those terms for LACK of better terms to use in the English language.

Some of the terms I use have dual meanings but I have to use them because I don't know of any other that is as specific and exact.
For example.....

A Jewish person could be one who CONVERTED and is now practicing Judaism, OR it could be someone BORN ot a Jewish mother but not only doesn't practice but is actually an atheist.
Thus it has both religious AND cultural meanings.
Likewise, the word "African" has a DUAL meaning for me.

1. It's the word used for someone who was born in a country of that continent despite their race.

2. It has now become the word used for someone of what I used to call the "Black" race regardless as to where they were born.

I stopped using the word "Black" so much because it's not very accurate and correct to use.
Few of us are actually "Black" in skin color but most of us are brown, and many San and Koi people who belong to our race aren't Black or even dark but a light tannish.....still of our race.
The word "Hamite" is a biblically based term that assumes that the writers of the Old Testament and others who claimed that Blacks came from Ham were correct.
Kemet is valid, but it only describes those from ancient Egypt and I'm not convinced that all of our people came from Kemet.

So I chose the term "African describe all members of our race no matter where we are found.
 

As far as the Germanic people's of the past.....

I realize that the original people WHO LIVED IN THE LAND now called Germany were dark skinned, but that was many many thousands of years ago.
I believe when we get into 3000 years ago the Caucasians had pretty much moved into that area by then and either driven the original brown skinned people underground, driven them off, or killed them.


But if you don't like the term "race" you can also go with "species" or even "breed" if you will....lol.
As long as it's understood that human beings with different phenotypes are indeed different from eachother and those differences should be recognized and appreciated instead of pretending that they don't exist.

When you pretend that there is no difference between you and White racists, you set yourself up to be harmed and exploited like many of our people in Latin America and in the Middle East.

In both of those regions you have millions of people of African descent who are being discriminated against by their lighter skinned countrymen and live in squalor but because they don't see themselves as "Black" but may see themselves as Puerto Rican or Iraqi or Arabian.....they can't understand why they are living in the condition they're in and refuse to call it racism.

Like both you and I have said, it doesn't matter whether WE believe race exists or not...as long as White people in charge believe it then we have to accept this as a fact and deal with it.

Troy

If you were 40 years younger and single, I absolutely would be sweating you for your number I have nothing but the highest regard for you.

 Damn.....lol.

Come on man, why she gotta be 40 years younger before you tried to get up on it ?????

Why not just 30 or 20 years younger???
That would STILL put her at around 50 or 60!
 

Lol.....
I don't know about where YOU live but I've been seeing some BAD ass 60+ year old women walking around in sun-dresses and sandals in the Michigan heat this summer!
 

Troy

Are you saying that constructs are NOT reality?

Yes race is a way to categorize people, but it is not like sex which is actually genetically determined.

Race is just as genetically based as sex.

Just like a penis, testicles, and ovaries are physical characteristics of sex......dark skin, kinky hair, blue eyes, slant eyes and other characteristics that are used to determine a person's race are based on their GENES.

Infact, race is MORE genetic and reliable than sex because you never know what sex a baby may turn out but a couple pretty much can count on the race of a baby being the same as theirs.....lol.



And you're correct that the way we USE race changes over time, but RACE ITSELF doesn't.

The Nubians are dark skinned, dark eyed, and kinky haired 3000 years ago and they STILL are today.
The Germanic people were white skinned, blue eyed, and straight blonde haired 3000 years ago and they STILL are today.

It's not the reality of RACE that keeps changing, it's our understanding of it.
 

were the comments being tossed around about the lifestyle of this country not being an environment that is compatible with the natural instincts of African Americans in regard to their sexuality and their affinity for polygamy. For the umpteenth time, all i am saying is that adult black people are free to indulge their desires in these areas as long as they don't rape adult females or commit statutory rape against minors under the age of 17.

Black people are NOT free to engage in whatever type of sexuality they wish in this nation be it legal OR illegal.

The behavior you're seeing many AfroAmericans exhibit that you may be MISTAKING for freedom are NOT expressions of freedom, but expressions of PERVERSION.

Because they are living in a restrictive oppressive environment that does NOT alllow them to freely practice sexuality the way would naturally and are forced to operate inside the White social framework.....they have historically came up with alternative, sneaky, and often perverse ways to "get around" the rules.

Thus instead of a man openly having several wives like in Africa.
In America he may just have one wife and a bunch of girlfriends.

But what makes it perverse is in Africa he would be forced to support all of his wives and his children by them, but in America he has little obligation to do so except if the courts get involved and try to force him to.

Troy

In the area I live in now, filled with gated communities and chain stores, has it issues too, but the trade offs are worth it at this stage of my life.  I don't have to step over the homeless people as I got about my daily business or walk with my head down so I dont step in dog do-do. The likelihood of my being a victim of a crime is virtually nil.

Some behavior I would regularly witness in NYC simply not exhibited here. No once have I heard the word nigger uttered in public, not have a seen a mother curse a child out at them them that they are a piece of shit just like their dad.  I have however witness bible study and prayer groups meet in Starbucks and the B&N

Man....where do YOU  live?
Lol, Mayberry from the Andy Griffith Show???

I have to wonder.....

In some ways, altough the conditions that Bumpy's generation had to grow up in and endure were much harsher....it seems to have produced stronger men who were more independent and even more productive.

When Black men HAD to rely on themselves, the streets, and their own wits to get them by and get the finer things in life....it forced them to be more creative and developed that hustler spirit.

Now those who aren't smart enough to advanced through and already set template called the educational.......because of the pretty much non-existent street life that so many Black men thrived off of....are offered no other alternatives or opportunities except for jail or death.
 

1 minute ago, Cynique said:

@Pioneer1Name one escapade or fantasy i EVER shared on this board.  That is what I mean when i refer to YOU lying and making up stuff because all the scenarios about my boy toy  were posted  by YOU except for my brief reference to him in my satirical piece when i poked fun at everybody  From the very beginning, as soon as i casually made a remark about a 72 year old, boy toy, YOU took it and ran with, posting pictures and coming up with the term "stud muffin", something i never used,-  talking about cruises when i've never been on a cruse in my life. YOU are who posted pictures, of old white men saying they were him.  YOU are who i regularly accused of being fixated on me having boy toy, a name that my kids gave to a friend of mine who occasionally takes me places.    I played along with your obsession just once when i posted a picture of handsome young man who was obviously,  not someone who would be dating me.  I tried to shut you down by teasing you about you having a blow up doll, but that only encouraged t you to come up with more made-up scenarios.  So  quit trying to draw attention away from you and your lies. My friend is a real person.  Your made up stuff was just that.  

Lol, oh reeeaaly?????

He "takes you places" huh????

Oh.....

I bet he does.

Cynique

Who is to say what's natural? Natural compared to what? It's natural to try and survive. As nature takes its course, however things sort themselves out is natural. Randomness is not unnatural. I continue to embrace the "survival of the fittest" principle and the "it is, what it is" philosophy. The state of the world today is not abnormal; it's is simply a situation called "Life".

Well to start with, nature is that which you don't have to be TRAINED into doing or PUNISHISHED into not doing.

Smoking cigarettes isn't natural, you have FORCE yourself to do it and fight the coughing, nasty taste, and cave in to peer pressure in order to go it.
Eating an orange or banana on the other hand is natural and tastes good and you don't have to be tricked or trained into doing it.

It's as NATURAL for a man to seek multiple mates to copulate with and spread his seed  as it is for you to seek multiple sources of food and store them up for a famine or drought.

Most men had to be TRAINED through religion to be monogamous and PUNISHED for not being monogamous, which means it didn't come natural for them.




What's stopping him from being the head of a household that consists of more than one mate willing to accommodate his desire for variety?

Social pressure....on both me AND my partners.

You....like most....may sit up and CLAIM that we all have the right to do and live as we please but if I were working with you on a job and told you I had 4 wives you'd try to get me fired or at best try to turn every other co-worker against me.

The female relatives of all the women involved with the man of a polyamorous relationship would badger the women  and degrade them for being in that relationship calling them stupid, brainwashed, exploited, ect.....and in many cases would even call law enforcement to find out what can be done legally to break up the relationship and punish that man!

Face it, the only time you'll accept polyamory is when WHITE MEN tell you to accept it.
.....like they did homosexuality.

in response to you and Pioneer insisting that this society with its white western values is a puritanical one that represses people's natural instincts.

Not only does it represses people's natural instincts, it CORRUPTS them and WARPS them.

Again, the taste of cigarettes isn't one you naturally like....it's an acquired taste that people often have to be TRICKED into accepting.
So they come up with menthols to trick your brain into thinking you're tasting peppermint candy.

Anybody over 17 is free to engage in sex with anyone they choose, as long as it is mutually agreed upon. They just have to deal with whatever personal consequences ensue from this. But it is not something they are legally forbidden to do. And it's also not against the law for any single female to have a baby. Abortion is more contested than this. When statutory rape enters the picture then the law steps in. This is how it goes in this white western country

You're focused on the LEGAL rules but you're also forgetting the SOCIAL rules that are often even stronger and too often prevents people from acting on what is natural.

Although it's LEGAL, do you think a man can see a 30 or 40 year old woman walking down the street with her boyfriend and proposition her for sex without consequences?

And even though it's legal for him to do so, if there was a fight and the police got involved they would probably accuse the man and not the boyfriend of starting the fight simply by doing that which is natural and legal but still SOCIALLY unacceptable.

　
"Free" means free both legally and socially.

Troy

Again, I don't know what is natural, but I suspect that multiple partners, throughout life may be more natural for men than life long monogamy. Of course some brothers can do this without a problem, shoot some Brothers don't ever have to have sex.

Exactly, and I've shared the same observations.

You can go from one end of the spectrum clear to the other.
From the polygamist....to the man who doesn't want sex at all....clear on over to the man who not only likes other men but likes MANY other men, lol.
Nothing applies to everyone 100%.

But what we're talking about are the MAJORITY of men and what applies to them.
I've known very few men who ONLY wanted one woman their entire life.

Troy

Like the more famous Michelle said, when Pioneer goes low you go high

What Michelle forgot to tell you is if you go too high your'e liable to get socked in the nuts....lol.
 

Chev

 

The subject of 'race' is very difficult for me to understand. No matter how hard I try, I don't understand the signficance of the term 'racial construct' or race as it is defined today as oppose to long ago, when this term apparently did not exist.

And, basing 'race' on phenotype, well, that is confusing. To add to this point too, America's system of basing 'race' doesn't help at all!

Well let me see if I can help you make sense of it.......


RACE is actually real.
Yes it's a construct....but it's a real one that is based on genetic reality.

Race is simply a way to catagorize people.....just like sex is.

Just like you have male and female sexes.....you have African, Native American, Caucasian, ect.. races.


The reason why it seems so confusing is because White Supremacists keep CHANGING the names and definitions of the races over and over again to keep you confused.
They change it over time and they change it from one nation to the next instead of agreeing on one set definition.
This is done PURPOSELY to keep you confused.

The same person who is consided "Black" in America may be considered simply a "dark skinned Puerto Rican" in Puerto Rico.

You have very dark skinned Ethiopians and Indians who come to America but are classified as "White" because of their national origins despite their looks.

This is all done to confuse people about race.
But it doesn't mean that the differences don't indeed exist.

On ‎8‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 7:09 PM, Delano said:

Perhaps Pioneer but it's not much fun being dependent on someone else. However the dependcy may be mutual over different goodies. 

It's not much fun to you or I, but you'd be surprised at how much fun many so-called grown men would have just living off of someone else and allowing them to take on all the responsibilities.

It's almost an epidemic on many urban communities where men in their 30s and 40s and 50s desire nothing more than a "sugar mamma" willing to take them in and feed them, cloth them, and let them lay around drinking and smoking weed all day.

These men are USED to being dependent on others and have very little spirit or concept of IN-dependence.
 

But when you talk of MUTUAL dependency, I think this makes for the best relationships.

I've noticed that two independent people rarely for meaningful relationships and if they do they tend not to last long.
Usually in a relationship one is has to depend on the other and the other knows it and takes advantage of it.

But when you have TWO (or more) people depending on eachother and needing eachother it makes for a more fair relationship where one is careful NOT to exploit or mistreat the others.

 

Troy

If EVERY player in the NFL both Black and White as well as "others" were to all fall down and start wallowing on the ground and barking like dogs in protest to the national anthem....again...exactly WHAT would it change?

Do you think this will cause the police to be less aggressive or will change the attitude of White Supremists?

More numbers are meaningless if the goal is obscure or non-existent.

Trump said that half of the players out there protesting don't even know what the hell they're protest for or about.
For the first time I'm in complete agreement with him, lol.

Cynique

I claim to have a 72 year old boy toy because i like to poke fun at myself. Something your ego would never allow you to do.

So in other words you LIED us to and claimed sexual escapades and fantasies that you knew weren't true.

Well, I knew it all along.

I didn't say anything because I wanted to see how far you were planning on going with that foolish fantasy.

If you just wanted a "boy toy" to poke yourself for fun, you didn't have to make up a story about one.....you could have just went to your closest Walmart and BOUGHT one, lol.

Troy

Is it that we CAN'T collect it ourselves?
Or are we too LAZY or have OTHER PRIORITIES that prevent us from actually gathering the unfiltered facts for ourselves instead of relying faithfully on information White people (or those trained, hired, and controled by White people) give us?

It's good that we can read between the lines and call bullshit when we hear/see it, but is that enough?

Just like a person who's being slowly poisoned and sickened must first stop taking the poison...but don't stop there....they must now take in the proper nutrients to heal themselves-

Now that we realize that we are being lied to and can't trust many of the sources we're getting our information from; the next step is to actually GATHER THE TRUTH about what's going on in the world.

I believe like you said that we should have our own news platforms, but the journalists, editors, and news achnors who gather and present us with the news can't be educated through the conventional ways of typical Western journalism.

We need to train and educated our professionals OUR way.

The media has us focusing on the wrong topics.

The ENTIRE NATION is a "Charlottesville" because White Supremacy has invaded region of it.

We can talk about the woman being hit by a car driven by a racist in Virginia last year, but what about the girl who was slashed by a knife attack from a racist in California THIS year?

California is just as racist and rightwing as anywhere in the South and don't let anyone tell you different.
The only difference is in California not only do you have to deal with WHITE racism, but also LATINO racism and ASIAN racism.

Lol, what's up with that singer "Billy Holiday Jr"??
We got women calling themselves junior now a days?

I'm not sure what to think of characters like Bumpy.

On one hand I have respect for him as a man being able to come up from down South with nothing but his ambition and build a mega empire in the underground world.
On the other hand, I have to wonder about all of the people....mostly Black...that he poisioned, killed, and otherwise damaged and destroyed.

Perhaps if he came up in a better system his brains, ambition, and talent would have taken him just as high on the positive end of the spectrum.

Perhaps he could have build a casino empire or a hotel resort making even MORE money without the bloodshed and trauma.

Thank you

And speaking of rules that civilize us...........

From what I've observed of history, there is "more than one way to skin a cat" so to speak.

Meaning....if we start off from a foundation of savagery and work our way toward civilization....there are MULTIPLE and perhaps near ENDLESS types of civilizations we can't establish that are far different from the one we're currently in.

The Egyptians, ancient Indians, and Mayans all had huge long lasting civilizations that were vastly different than ours with totally different marriage and sexual systems.

So who's to say THIS one is the most civilized and furthest away from animalistic tendencies?