Pioneer1

I'm beginning to think that the amassing of extreme wealth has less to do with doing what is morally right or wrong and more to do with capitalizing off of collective effort.

The Whites of America have managed to accumulate large amounts of wealth by coming up with ideas and working together to put those ideas in motion.
SOME of those ideas were morally good like inventing new technology, and OTHERS of those ideas were morally bad like enslaving and murdering people.
But in most cases, the common denominator was collective effort.

AfroAmericans who are serious about becoming wealthy are going to have to learn to find common ground among eachother and work togther towards their goals.
 

Cynique

You turned down my invitation in regard

Lol....I'm sure I wasn't the first one to "turn down" your invitations.

Delano

Politics also creates stratification although I believe this is a less clear stratification.

You're right that there are many stratifications WITHIN what we called "middle class" and most politicians KNOW this and take advantage of the ignorance of that average American by telling WORKING CLASS people that if elected they will help the "middle class" without making it clear that it's the PROFESSIONAL CLASSES that they intended to help, not the lower working class.


If Troy is Wyle E......then Cynique must be his Tasmanian Devil fresh out of that ACME box, lol.




Cynique

You're such a loser. You act as though stating what your position is, legitimizes it. And it doesn't. You're not an authority on anything. You have a degree from Starbucks College of Caffeinated Swill where you majored in opinion as fact, and minored in self-contradiction. You're nothing but a wanna-be who's never gonna-be because you're incapable of conceding your fallibility. (The issue of values is every bit as relevant as income, Dummy.) You try to bluff your way through life but you're not even good at doing that.

I must not be that much of a loser...I can't seem to lose YOU.

17 hours ago, Cynique said:

@Pioneer1You turned down my invitation in regard to why white supremacy endures, and i'll return the favor by taking a pass on the non sequitur question you posed. 

 

 

Lol, that's Ok.
I think WE BOTH know what your answer would have been...had you honestly given it.

Troy

yes, I know, I just said that. What is you point?

Lol, I was actually agreeing with you....if that's allowed.

As far as not tipping being a low class value, I agree with that also.
Most poor people don't have disposable income to just GIVE away to show appreciation for services that they have already paid for.
 

Cynique

Right, Troy! Except for a few predictable "pioneerisms" to muddy the picture, all Pioneer did was regurgitate everything you and i already said when we rebutted his original contentions.

The only one who "muddied" the picture was YOU, attempting to introduce "middle class values" into the discussion as if it was the major criteria to distiguish between the classes......when clearly INCOME is the ultimate criteria.

My position is crystal clear: The are TWO middle classes and most Corrections Officers come from one of those two.

As far as I'm concerned this discussion is open for ALL posters, not just me and Troy.
I just called Troy's name because he was the one who made the statement we're discussing.
 

Troy

My definition says "...learning how to apply it." Besides it seems like you are less focused on trying to understand what Im saying and much more focused on trying to figure out different ways to dispute it. That is probably why you did not answer my question... I even put it in boldface so that you would not miss it

Lol....what are you talking about?
Not only did I answer your question in detail, the FIRST word in answer to your question was -NO.

And to be clear, my position is NOT that educated people commit just as many violent crimes.
I've said at the beginning that I don't have the proof to actually back that position up.
What I'm doing is challenging the idea that educated people are less violent because of it's social and political implications.

Further, that list of reasons I provided wasn't meant to be proof or even evidence to DISPROVE what you said, but to provide you with reasonable CONSIDERATIONS as to why your assumption that fewer educated people are in prison for violent crimes simply because they are less violent.

But seriously, do you REALLY need me to provide "evidence" or "proof" that educated people have more resources and connections than the uneducated????

Cynique

Most of them will tell you they are middle class.

They may not be very knowledgable about the categories that econonmists and sociologists used to define people, but they know they're NOT in poverty like those homeless people or those people living in the projects....and the know they're NOT rich like Trump.
They're in the middle.

A person can be middle class without "middle class values" as much as they can be human without HUMANITY.

If a person is neither in the lowest classes of destitution or the highest classes of wealth....they are simply in the MIDDLE.



Troy

Ofcourse just like a person can be in the middle class and not have middle class values, they can be poor and HAVE middle class values.

A lot of poor families stress higher education which is a middle class value.
Most poor people will even TIP when they go to a restaurant or order pizza to be delivered, but tipping is actually a middle class value.

Cynique
 

You are missing the entire point. What does all that "viable alternative" blather have to do with me challenging someone to disprove that Whites remain in world-wide control because they are, indeed, superior to others???

It's not THE point....it's YOUR point.

Originally I asked you a question, what was the alternative to White Supremacy?

Instead of asnwering you invited me to a debate about whether or not White people were superior.

My question remains, but a simple "I don't know" would suffice if that's the case.

The Nazi SS were highly training, but were evil as hell, personally killing many non-Arians. I'm not talking about people who are educated to improve themselves not to d the bidding of others (like police officers and MBAs).

You're ADDING to the definitions we agreed upon.

What a person does WITH their education is irrelevant to whether or not education itself...which is an increase in knowledge or training.....makes one more or less violent.

Besides, I believe I read something in another thread where either you or Cynique said being more educated means they should be able to think better and more for themselves instead of allowing others to manipulate their thinking for them, so killing people because you were "just following orders" would challenge that.


　

Do you think that the percentage of people with a college education, incarcerated for violent crime is higher than the percentage of people in the general populations?

No, I absolutely do not think so...however there could be many different reasons for this OUTSIDE of them simply being less violent, including:

1. Being more educated made them SMART enough to commit their crimes and get away with them and/or

2. Being more educated gave them a higher income allowing them to afford more legal resources to stay out of jail and/or

3. Being more educated means they have MORE FRIENDS who are lawyers, judges, and police officers to get them off the hook

...among other reasons.

1 hour ago, Cynique said:

The fact that one group is referred to as "blue" collar, and the other group as "white" collar, is how and why society distinguishes the 2 from each other. They are different.  

Ofcourse they are different, but they are both referred to as "middle class", especially in the political arena.
You ask any bus driver, police officer, or skilled laborer do they consider themselves poor or part of the middle class and listen to what they'll tell you.
 

1 hour ago, Cynique said:

What does an alternative have to do with white supremacy except that if there is one, it obviously is inferior. 

 

Alternatives that are inferior shouldn't be considered alternatives at all.

It's like telling someone who's ship has sailed off to Europe without them that an"alternative" is to swim....lol

Again, do you know of any VIABLE alternatives...meaning a nation, culture, or religion that can effectively challenge and overtake White Supremacy AND provide a better lifestyle for those living under it?

6 minutes ago, Cynique said:

@Pioneer1Are you willing to concede that white human beings are, indeed, superior to other groups as witnessed by how they continue to dominate the world?  Or do you want to debate this?  

As of right now, I'm just asking the question......WHERE is the alternative?

What nation, culture, or religion that you know of can effectively challenge and overtake so-called "Western" culture  AND provide a more comfortable lifestyle for it's adherents?

But WORKING CLASS (which includes the blue collar ) is indeed in the middle of  poverty and wealth....which technically makes it just as much a "middle class" as the Professional Class which is also wedged between poverty and wealth.

Troy

The problem is that it is hard to operate in our current system where the greedier you are the more you are rewarded. The more you can destroy you "competition" the better you are perceived. If you company can grow more profits buy paying works less -- it is all good.

Black people will continue to be influenced by what you describe as "caucasian economics" because this is the yardstick that we measure ourselves. This has never served us, but I don't see it changing anytime soon. When the whole system collapses (it is not likely any of us will be around when it happens), perhaps then we will see productive change.

I think the key is to have a BALANCE.

I've lived near areas where the "swim or sink" mentality ruled and everyone looked out for themselves or their own interests.
And I've also lived in so-called liberal areas on the West Coast where most people believe in "aultruism" and sharing everything.
Neither extreme serves our people well because both are too broadbased and not detailed enough to address so many of the needs of individual AfroAmericans with our many varying backgrounds and circumstance.

We need enough socialism to make sure no one starves to death and everyone gets proper medical treament; but we also need enough capitalism to punish stagnation and laziness among those prone too it as well as reward hard work and innovation.

Cynique
 

White supremacy endures and it's debateable as to why this is the case.

There isn't much to debate......

Where is the viable ALTERNTIVE to White supremacy on this planet today?

Troy


Keep in mind that the term "middle class" also includes the working class at it's lower end.

Given the fact that in order to be a CO you must pass a background check and have a psychological evaluation, which means the vast majority of female COs must have a stable criminal free background.
Unless you're suggesting that a large chunk of females COs are pulled from the ranks of the homeless and welfare recipients....where else are they coming from except the middle classes?

I agree with those definitions for the purpose of this discussion.

Let me say that I won't out right disagree with your position because I haven't done enough research on the subject to clearly prove you're wrong.
However I would like to CHALLENGE it.

You said less educated are MORE prone to violence; which implies that more educated people are LESS violent.
And according to your definition education is:
"The process of acquiring knowledge and learning how to apply it. This can be done through formal education and training or independently. "


If those with formal training are less violent than those without any, then that would mean professionaly trained police officers and military service men should be LESS VIOLENT than the average civilian with only a highschool education or less but no professional training.
But we know that professionally trained and often college educated police officers and military service men typically engage in and in many cases actually initiate far more violence than those without their education.

In another thread, Troy suggested that less educated people are more prone to violence.

The first thing we need to do is DEFINE the terms  EDUCATION and VIOLENCE.

Troy, what is your definition or understanding of EDUCATION and what is your definition or understanding of VIOLENCE?
 

What you see with people being nice, generous, and heavily family and community oriented IS NOT unique to Asian culture what so ever.
Most African and Native American cultures USED TO be just as refined and comforting until they were conquered and subjegated by Caucasians and forced into a different lifestyle.

Infact, Asians can be quite cold and hostile also when they are put in the right circumstances.
The difference is because there are so many Asians and they have so much more control over their nations and societies than African and Native Americans people's do right now......they have a better opportunity to exhibit more of their true nature and express who they really are.

You don't have to go too far back in history, just 4 or 5 generations ago Black people in the United States were known to be far more generous, morally upright, and family oriented than even Asians today.
What changed was being forced more and more into White dominated society which forces so many Black people to go against their nature and adopt foreign habits to survive or be successful.

When Black people are no longer influenced by Caucasian economics, religious dogma, social norms, and diet......we will be far more generous, peaceful, and exponetially more productive than we are in our current state.

Del

The majority of domestic violence incidents involve a person being under the influence of alcohol.

Not only is this a great point...alcohol abuse and related violence cuts across all socio-economic lines.

Perhaps the only difference is wealthier more educated people have the money and other resources to cover up their crimes and bribe the victims.


Prisons create a stable work force

Do you mean by extracting labor from the prisoners?

 

Troy



if you want to believe that Phds are just as likely to commit crimes as a highschool drop out and that there are no differences between to the two people, then carry on.
 

The very well MAY be just as likely to commit crimes.....just not the same TYPE of crimes as a less lettered man.
Whereas the uneducated man engages in petty crimes of larceny or prostitution.....the highly educated man engages in bank fraud, embezzlment, and other white collar criminal activites.

I haven't gotten a response from you about that experiment....lol.
If it's your argument and conviction that education makes men less violence and less prone to physically reactions from mere insults.....why don't you go to highly educated Black men and insult their mothers or children and record the results.

Right now that is just theory......
But this experiment will provide EVIDENCE.

I always wondered what goes on in the minds of some women that they seem to find the craziest most disturbed men attractive.

So much so that a lot of serial killers and mass murderer in prison get thousands of love letters and proposal for marriage.

Now you have female guards and corrections officers risking their jobs (not to mention their safety) willing to hop in the sack with these dudes.

Some of these women are married with children and come from stable middle class backgrounds, yet the attraction to these men seem to overwhelm them for some reason.

I suspect it has something to do with the biological urge of some women to get with men who they feel are violent enough or crazy enough to do whatever it takes to protect them.

But clearly all women in all cultures don't share this desire because when I look at the Asian community it seems that Asian women ARE NOT attracted to violent or crazy men but seem to lean more toward the passive and stable types.

Troy and Delano

If you two want to prove a point about how easily insults of your loved ones can be brushed off, instead of telling "mama jokes"...why don't you talk about eachothers CHILDREN!

And let's see how far THAT would get.


Two friends who have known eachother for years joking about eachother's mothers can't be compared to two strangers arguing with eachother and one talks about the other's mother in a fit of rage.

The spirit and intent is ENTIRELY different.

 

Troy

You keep shifting the weight and moving the focus every time your point is disproven......


You first said that uneducated or less educated people are more willing to engage in violence with the slightest provocation.

When Delano correctly (actually he beat me to the punch) pointed out how some of the most educated people in the world in the form of presidents and other global leaders have been the main ones starting wars.....you then say that only uneducated people fight and get violent over mere words.

And when it is again pointed out that most wars beging when words are no longer effective in solving the conflict.

Now you're saying it's all about the INDIVIDUAL and not warring nations willing to fight over words.


If you think the only type of Black man who will fight you over insulting his mother is an UNEDUCATED one.....then try a little experiment:

Go back to the univesity you teach at and find atleast 10  Black male professors and/or staff members with Master's degrees or higher and insult their mothers and see how many of them get physical with you and how many of them brush it off.....lol.

That would be a REAL scientific experiment.

Social science.

Infact, why don't you RECORD IT on your celly and post the reactions on here....lol.

Cynique

I don't who that is in the picture he posted and so blatantly lied about

WTF???

Lol....
Are you SERIOUSLY going to sit up there with a straight face and glasses on tand tell everyone that that is NOT you and that you DID NOT send me that picture along with a few "private words" to go with it???

Ok....

Whatever

You're right, I'm making it all up....lol.
 

Speaking of blatant liars........

Krazy  Alexander II

Glad to see you're back!

I know you had to take a few days off after Del EMBARASSED you by exposing you as a staight up PLAGIARIZER.

It took you a while to re-cover and re-group from that one.....lol.

@Chevdove

Sometimes I don't see your responses. Why don't you "tag"?

Probably for the same reasons I almost never use the "like" and "thanks" features at the bottom of posts....lol.
It's just not my style.

But I definately appreciate your words.
Like you, I've done years of research (informal) on religion and history and I like sharing the knowledge and information (and there's a difference) that I've gathered over the years.

Infact, the research I've done both religion and history is credited with pushing me AWAY from organized religion and bringing me CLOSER to spirituality and a better understanding of traditional indigenous belief systems.

OK
....if that's what you're going with.

I just think it's dangerous to toss around blanketed names like "loser" and attach them to people you know very little about.....including their character or the circumstances that put them in the positions they're in.

You want to call the men incarcerated in an IN-justice system as "losers" when in reality most of them didn't lose....they were CHEATED in a rigged system.

You talk about how it's fluid and being a loser doesn't have to be a permanent condition, but every psychologist knows the damage putting negative lables on children can do to their self esteem which can affect their behavior.

If you call a child who is doing poorly in school a "little loser" and call them that repeatedly, with their self esteem and self worth damaged.... how likely are they to "over come" whatever caused them to "lose" in the first place?

Again, WE need to be careful just tossing these blanketed statements around.....

WE need to first think about what effect our statements will have on the subjects/victims of those statements, and then what effect will they have on our community as a whole.

Constructive criticizm is often necessary, but just calling people "losers" without mapping out a plan to uplift them and improve their lives is counter-productive.

Cynique

I know nothing about you, your name or where you are located, - thanks to your obsession with anonymity, there's no way i could or would send pictures to something like you. So dream on, loser. You're the joke. Barf!

You call me a loser.
You probably wish I'd "lose" those pictures I have of you and him (and the others).....lol.

Now here's PART of one of the pictures:

Are you trying to tell me that this ISN'T you...and you DIDN'T send it to me?

Are you SERIOUSLY trying to tell us that??????