Pioneer1

Cynique If the Black community was better off spiritually, mentally, and socially 75 years ago than they are today it's because the water and air were purer, the food was whole and less toxic, the children weren't getting vaccinated as much....infact most Black people had their children at home instead of in the hospitals. It was other BLACK WOMEN who helped bring Black babies into the world. They knew the Black mother and her body. As opposed to the sterile cold environment so many hospitals are today where White doctors don't know the Black body and don't care and would rather do a quick C-section on the mother and get it over with. Black people had far less contact with the medical system than they do today and many older Black folks will swear than this is the reason they lived longer and healthier lives for the most part. 75 years ago most Black people in America still lived down south in rural environments where they lived off the land and pretty much maintained self sustaining communities where they relied on REAL knowledge. Priori knowledge gained from observing nature instead of artificial knowledge given to them by White academia. Infact, even TODAY if you keep up with who's the oldest people living in America it's usually a Black man or woman (usually a woman) who was born and raised in a rural or near rural environment. That shows you how healthy Black folks were in the past as opposed to many of our people today. You know something isn't "right" about a lot of Black people under 50. They aren't thinking as quickly and act more "apish" and "buffoonish" than past generations. You know as a kid you and most Black children were "quicker" than White children. Many of these kids aren't. They even talk slower and seem to be more "absent minded". They're also less CREATIVE than their parents and grand parents were and you can tell this by listening to the music and how much it has declined decade by decade from originality to sampling and now inaudible mumbling and straight garbage. Most of these kids don't even know how to PLAY a musical instrument let alone INVENT one like their grand parents used to. Did you ever think you'd see the day when White men are better on the saxophone or on the piano than Black men? I remember going down south as a kid and seeing how my aunts used to make soaps and lotions from scratch. Black women used to can and jar all types of foods that they grew in their own gardens. Black men at 70 could put on a pair of overalls and build an addition his house or build a big house from scratch with his sons. I didn't see them build machines like tractors but they could FIX anything that was built! How many Black folks are out building ANYTHING today? If something goes wrong with your house or car you call a White man or a Mexican to repair it. What happened? If you take a SERIOUS look at the generation of Black Americans born between the late 60s and today, something has happened to many of them MENTALLY. It's as if their mental development has been arrested.

Troy No, if I had children I WOULD NOT get them vaccinated. As best I could I'd provide a healthy environment and diet for them to maintain a strong immune system. I wouldn't worrry about them not being able to enroll in school because the schools are miseducating many Black children anyway. I'd home school them and probably give them a much better education than the local school district ever could. As far as vaccines being a part of a conspiracy...... I don't know if they were designed to "destroy" Black people, but certainly I believe that regardless of the intent...the RESULT is that most of the MMR vaccines that have been administred to children of all races seem to have a disproportionately negative reaction in Black children and especially Black boys and it increases their rates of autism and seems to lessen the overall general intelligence of most Black boys and girls who receive them. And I'm not the ONLY one who believes this....Rober Deniro seems to also believe it: https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Robert+De+Niro+autism+Black+children Again, look at Africans from the continent who HAVE NOT received those same vaccinations and they are are smarter than White children in school and much smarter than Black American children. You tell me what's the problem? CD Personal responsibility will only take you so far. One of the reasons why people file class action lawsuits when they are victims of environmental toxins and poisonings and WIN is because the law recognizes that it wasn't THEIR FAULT that they were poisoned or exposed to toxins. Responsibility means the ABILITY TO RESPOND. When people are systematically being poisoned and miseducated and denied access to clean water and fresh food....they don't have the ability to respond on their own. Only an authority higher than them has the ability to replace their infrastructure, remove the toxins from their environment, and improve their overall quality of life As far as me making it out. I never was really "in" the ghetto. We weren't rich....but I didn't grow up in poverty, I grew up in the lower middle class. Neither I nor my brothers had to struggle for food or any other basic necessity like many of my cousins and other family did. I guess that's why we have a different mentality than them and know how much better things can be than the way of life so many of them are satisfied with living. I'm not rich now either, I'm still on the lower side of middle class but I'm somewhat comfortable by God's grace. I had a brief encounter with poverty some years ago and found it intolerable....lol. Years ago I had moved to a new city, hadn't worked in a while and was close to being out on the street so I woke up one morning and was so angry I got dressed and went down to the city hall and DEMANDED a decent paying job and told them I wasn't leaving the building until either security took me out or they gave me a job with decent pay and benefits. Even talked about how I was an American citizen and had a right to life which includes work at decent pay started quoting the Constitution on them...lol. They gave me a job. But I decided I didn't like the city because I couldn't find a girlfriend there, so I quit the job and left town....lol.

Troy I does seem that the media is giving Kaepernick more attention for his actions than they've given other atheletes who've taken much bolder stands. And I think him being mixed probably does have something to do with it. I've noticed that many White people seem to tolerate the rebelliousness of mixed people a little more than they do Black folk. I'm not sure why. I know many Whites (and Blacks) find mixed people more attractive than EITHER race and perhaps their physical appearance softens the "blows" so to speak and smoothes the edge of their otherwise offensive behavior. Infact, I've noticed since being a kid that people who are perceived as "good looking" often get away with more rebellious and even anti-social behavior than normal looking and unattractive people. As far as walking off the plantation....I mean field...... Actually I think you may be on to something. If Black ball players REALLY want to be effective in stopping police brutality and other forms of social injustice...maybe they should protest by NOT PLAYING. I'm guessing that most police officers being blue collar guys are probably HUGE (said in the way Donald Trump would say it....lol) sports fans. If the angry protests of college kids and the cries of distraught mothers aren't enough to stop them from shooting unarmed citizens, perhaps the threat of no more Monday Night Football, no more Superbowl, and no more NBA games period will force them to reconcile with the community they're supposed to protect. I bet all it would take is ONE SEASON of Black players boycotting the league, and before the next season starts it won't be the players taking a knee but their agents and the coaches and even the police unions...ON BOTH KNEES....BEGGING them to stop the boycott and promising them anything just to get them to play again.

CD I've been working hard on several projects so all I could do was read, but I have to ask Pioneer this, since most of the areas are being gentrified are the same pipes in use? I know for a fact that in Memphis, downtown and North Memphis has been gentrified and the projects were torn down. The short answer would be........ Some of the gentrified areas are using lead tainted water mains that are part of the original system of the earlier urban infrastructures...other's aren't. Because of this, many of the upper middle class White communities are suffering from the same problems that come from lead poisioning as the poor Black communities they replaced suffered from such as ADD, high rates of autism in their children, and violence....but more so than homicide you see SUICIDE. As Troy was talking earlier about the high rates of suicide in New York and other urban areas where you see a lot of yuppies and "hipsters" congregated together today. Just a generation ago those places were plagued by high homicide rates. Same violence, different forms of release. When you realize that psychologically speaking ANGER and DEPRESSION are both forms of frustration that are expressed in different ways.....you realize that homicide and suicide are both violent releases of frustration through the separate paths of anger and depression respectively. Unlike poor Black folks who can blame poverty and racism for their violent feelings, many wealthy Whites don't know WHO to blame so they internalize their feelings until it releases itself in the form of depression and suicidal thought. But a more indepth answer contains muliple compents that we need to understand: 1. I'm not saying the lead is the ONLY chemical that is poisoning the Black community. I believe the vaccines also play a major role in the poisoning of Black children and is responsible for a dramatic decline in Black intellectual performance as well as a dramatic increase in autism and other mental problems you see among so many Black youth. If you look at Black students who were born and raised in the United States verse your Black students from other parts of the globe...you'd have to admit seeing a type of stupidity and poor academic performance that you just don't see among unvaccinated Black children from Africa and the Carribean. 2. Lead poisoning and it's symptoms are strongly influenced by NUTRITION and the lack of it. When a person isn't getting enough zinc and other minerals in their daily diet then their nervous system is more likely to "suck up" minerals from the environment that are potentially toxic like lead and mercury to try and compensate. Most pediatricians and neurologists will confirm this fact. So wealthy and well fed children can be exposed to the same environmental toxins as poor and malnurished children but still do better because their bodies aren't as quick to absorb those toxins in an attempt to compensate. 3. Realize that there are 2 groups of pipes that your water goes through before it comes out of your faucet: 1. The municiple water system. 2. The pipes from the building you're residing in. In the case of the former residents of urban areas. They were getting lead from both the CITY'S old plumbing system as well as the old plumbing system of the buildings and houses they were living in. But in the case of the recently gentrified residents, at best they're only getting lead from the old CITY'S systems....the newer buildings they're living in almost surely has no lead in them. And in some cases even the city's pipes in the gentrified neighborhoods have been replaced so their entire homes are lead free. So most newer White families are getting LESS than half of the lead exposure former Black families were getting. 4. Finally, keep in mind that most upper class White people in these urban areas don't trust tap water ANYWAY. Most of them drink fance bottled water at home and where ever they go and most have water filters in their homes so even if they're in the same communities as the poisoined water they and their children aren't being exposed as much. Even if you didn't accept the factors I just listed, my argument for the lead and violence connection could still fall back on the high rates of suicides found in recently gentrified urban areas in comparison to the high homicide rates of the former residents who both shared the same water supply system to various extents. Both groups exhibit signs of psychological distress and violence but just release them in different ways. ......but that would be low hanging fruit. I'd rather say that although those recently gentrified White communities are and will suffer from the same effects of lead poisoning like higher rates of autism and other mental problems as well as high rates of homicide and even higher rates of suicide....they still shouldn't be expected to experience the SAME type of devastation you see in the poorer populations who occupied the areas before them because too many OTHER important factors are different.

Troy I think that with the exception of the 400 years of slavery and semi-slavery conditions, the other problems you laid out are actually more SYMPTOMS of a larger underlying problem of Black intellectual decline. Even the loss of Black newspapers and news orientated Black media is just another sign of AfroAmerican intellectual decline. Quite frankly, As Black America gets dumber and dumber it no longer has the academic sophistication and standards to develop it's own media sources NOR does it's target audience have the mental capacity to understand the content being presented to them and most likely aren't even interested in stories so serious and mature. Look at what attracts so many of our people today....entertainment full of juvenile gossip and foolishness. We had more informative and better organized media outlets back in the 1930s and 40s than we have today. We REALLY made a lot of progress after slavery during Reconstruction with inventions, land ownership, farming, building schools, building hospitals, and building self sustaining communities in general. Relatively speaking we were outpacing White people in terms of growth for decades....then something happened. Something happened to make many of our people...to put it quite plainly....STUPID. To the point that even many immigrants.....including African immigrants...who come to the United States can easily notice an intellectual deficit in the AfroAmerican community and often take advantage of it.

Troy Cuba wasn't backed by the USSR when Castro launched his revolution. Infact, NO outside nation supported Cuba's actual revolution. The United States supported Castro and his militia to overthrow the Batista government in power before him but somewhere along the way Castro had is own plans and went against U.S. interests and organized the masses of the poor and working class Cubans to change the entire system from a capitalist one to a communist one. Later after being established and no longer having the U.S. as an ally did Russia and the USSR come into the picture. Real change come from the masses...whether at the bottom (poor/Black) or near the bottom (working class/mulatto) of the socio-economic ladder of the old regime. I agree with you on the ineffectiveness of the anthem protests. All they're doing is pissing off a lot of people for nothing in my opinion because it changes very little as far as concrete tangible policy. First of all...... I'm not sure if anyone else sees it this way but KNEELING before the American flag or during the national anthem is actually giving it MORE reverence than standing !!! Hell, if you want to do something...turn your back and fold your arms...lol. That looks more like a protest than kneeling or taking a knee as if you're bowing.....lol. Second of all, most of the people these players are protesting and pissing off people and losing money FOR....probably don't even know what's going on on THEIR behalf. They're too busy with the day to day hustle and grind to keep up with politics . And I'm guessing most of them probably wouldn't even CARE if they did know. Imagine the feeling you get when you step up and fight for somebody and when you get in trouble they look at you and say, "Oh well... Didn't nobody ask you to do that for me."

Sara My statements aren't arrived from ONLY my personal experiences or who I hang around. I'm not the only Black man in the Black community nor are the Black women I've been with the ONLY Black women. Infact, most of the Black women I tend to be with aren't native to America anyway but come from the Carribean or African continent or their parents do, so the vast majority of them haven't been influenced as much by the American media and tend to have very high self esteem and a certain amount of confidence but still maintain a feminine demeanor. It would be pretty naive of me or anyone else to use their own personal situation as a barometer for what's happening in Black America. When I speak on issues affecting Black America I take as much of the general "norm" into account as necessary for accuracy.

Troy You make a good point about the suicide issue. Most people don't know that there are actually more SUICIDES in the United States than there are homicides! The suicide rate is higher than the homicide rate in nearly all cities in the United States. So many people are depressed and feel hopeless. But I still think the homicide rate is more of a threat....atleast more of an IMMEDIATE threat... to a society than the suicide rate because the violence associated with homicides usually involves so many innocent people. Of those suicides in New York or Chicago.....how many were committed by children or babies? But many of the innocent being shot down in the streets of America are innocent children whether by gang members targeting eachother or by their own parents who killed them along with their siblings as an ultimate form of domestic violence. Unlike a homicide which invades other people's space; suicide is usually done in a private setting and USUALLY (although there seems to be an increasing number of murder-suicides in rural White America) involves only the individual who intends to carry out the act. Another thing to look at is suicides usually claim one life and that's it. Homicides claim multiple lives AND the perpetrator if prosecuted often ends up losing a large portion of their lives incarcerated or even executed. Finally, homicides tend to lead to more homicides as the loved ones of the victim seek revenge. Most suicides end with the act, although some people are so distraught over a loved one committing suicide that they often become suicidal themselves. I typed all of that to say that even if the scripts were flipped, in the court of public/world opinion those who commit homicides would still be judge more negatively than those who commit suicide. Hell, in many Asian nations suicide is seen as honorable and seen as at decent thing to do when you've shamed yourself and your family. As far as the rest of your posts........... You seem to be doing a better job pushing one of my points about how the media is fueling the violence in Chicago than I was. But at the end of the day the question we still have to answer is WHY? Just like we ask why would Black men continue to sell dope even after they've known for a generation that it was brought in specifically to trap them...... We also must ask why so many Black people in Chicago and elsewhere still kill eachother so readily despite all of the media coverage and the "stop the violence rallies"....where people are even getting killed at the rallies! When this much attention is being brought to a problem yet the problem persists and in some cases even gets worse...at some point even the most intelligent minds will have to entertain the idea that something is either influencing many Black youth to be violent and crazy or out right MAKING them violent and crazy. How bad will things have to get before the most intelligent minds in the Black community are compelled to examine ALL options and dismiss NONE until the problem is solved?

Troy You're mixing governmental policies with social revolutions. Ofcourse INSTITUTIONS like slavery and colonialism were initiated by the rich and powerful. These events mere products of an already established system that wanted to feed itself with more resources, land, and power. This is not change. England and Spain....who were already in the business of stealing territory and exploiting people.....stealing land from the Native Americans and enslaving Africans was NOT change; it was just a continuation of the same ideal but taken to another level. I'm talking about REAL CHANGE. Change in the very structure of a government or a new social paradigm. Change in the very system itself in which the old values, laws, and ways of thinking and doing things are nearly wiped out. This is almost always fueled by the masses at the bottom...even if it is initiated by the intellectuals or professionals in the middle who inspire the masses and alert them. The Haitian Revolution led by Toussaint The Cuban Revolution led by Castro. The Chinese Revolution by Mao. Even the Revolutionary war and the founding of the United States from England lead by Henry, Jefferson, Washington and others. These were all major revolutions that brought about complete change in the government and society and were fueled by the masses (poor and lower class) albeit initiated by members of the intellectual or professional classes who strayed from their peers. And to answer you question.... Quite frankly, when it comes to Federal policy, just like the Federal elections....the agenda is SET and the will of the majority of the people matters little to those in authority. But when it comes to local politics I KNOW we as individuals can have a tremendous influence both on policy and political office.

　 Sara So, Mr. "I'm average-looking," don't pity sistahs; pity the bear and feel sorry for yourself. Some would even consider my looks BELOW average. There's a reason why I'm not too quick to show my pictures all over the internet...lol. Get outta here with that "sistaz thinking they're all that" nonsense. Anybody over 25 KNOWS that most people who walk around talking about how good they look or how sexy they are do this to compensate for their lack of confidence. How many rich people have you seen running around flashing money and talking about how much money they make or have? That's what POOR people do in order to impress others and compensate for their low opinion of themselves. How many people with doctorate degrees stand around arguing with people and telling them how smart and capable they are as a person? If Black women in America were so happy with themselves and the way they looked they wouldn't spend so much time and even more money straightening their hair and even dyeing their hair blond clearly in an attempt to look like White women. Now I have to admit that it's not all their fault. Many Black men love the way White women look and find them more attractive than Black women. Which is one of the reasons so many Black men...even many of the so-called "conscious" and "pro Black" Black men love "red bones" or very light skinned Black women. It's as closest they can get to a White woman without actually saying they are with one. So many Black women try to imitate the appearance of White women in order to attract Black men who they know or believe find them attractive. Black women spend more money on getting their hair and nails done than any other woman in this nation. Black women (and Black men too for that matter) spend more of their income on clothes, shoes, perfumes, jewelry and other "accessories" than other races of women PER CAPITA. When a person doesn't like the way they look naturally...they buy "accessories" hoping that people will see those things as an extention of their person and in the process make themselves more appealing. Now obviously I'm not talking about all Black women. Many are healthy and happy with themselves and most Black women from Africa that I've met have extremely high self esteem...even more so than White or Asian women. But a large percentage of Black women in America DO have self esteem issues and are clearly frustrated living in a society that constantly holds the OPPOSITE of how they look as the epitome of feminine beauty.....not to mention the state of Black men who have our own issues of not being able to provide and protect Black women as we should right now. Also, there's more at play when it comes to a woman's self esteem than how she sees herself in terms of looks and beauty. A person can see themselves as very attractive physically but WORTHLESS morally. How many times have you heard Black men and women say "they ain't shit" when speaking of themselves? Or see themselves as gangsta....or criminal.....or see themselves and other Black people as "wicked" and no good or children of Cain? Black people in America in general...which includes Black women....suffer from confidence and self esteem issues not only in terms of how they look but also in terms of morality as many feel they are "cursed" or just not meant to succeed in life. Talk is cheap, actions speak louder than words and the behavior of Black men AND women in America tell the world how low many think of themselves. Cynique You're right that Black women have never been accurately rewarded for their strength and other positive attributes. It's clearly because of the historically patriarchal focus on a woman's worth being decided based on her looks and femininity rather than her strength and intelligence. I have to admit that even in my own personal life...when I look for a woman I don't look for "intelligence" or "strength" but looks, femininity, and social skills. Although most of it is cultural, I also believe a large percentage of it is just inborn and natural to human beings to attribute strength (both physical and inner) to men and beauty to women.

Troy I wasn't arguing AGAINST the point you made about violence as often being a means for change. My point was that regardless as to how that change was achieved whether peacefully or violentely, it still came from the bottom.

What I think Black women in America are experiencing more than anything is FRUSTRATION. And that frustration has 2 main causes: 1. The constant feeling of insecurity because they don't feel Black men can protect them or provide for them. 2. The constantly feeling of being "less than" White women in terms of beautify and/or feminity. As far as the "anger" goes...... Frustration releases itself in either anger or sadness. Most Black women have learned that most peope don't care if they're sad so they've decided that anger generates a better response and gets more attention. A White or Asian woman can sit in public and start crying and dozens of men and women of all races will come up to them asking them what's wrong. A Black woman can start crying and people will ignore her and stare at her like she's crazy or a drug addict and assume negatives about her condition. But of a Black woman starts cussing and getting loud...that gets everyone's attention and they start looking around at eachother trying to figure out "what happened" and try to calm her down. Black women have learned this and many act accordingly. I really feel sorry for the Black woman. Atleast as a man, I believe God equipped most men with the physical and mental faculties to deal with the harshness of an unforgiving society but I don't believe most women of any race are equipped to deal with certain things that Black woman have been having to go through for hundreds of years.

Cynique 　 Time and time again I have come right out and said, whether it is correct or not, that most black problems can be attributed to the breakdown of the family, and many other black people who live in the high crime area and see things first hand agree. The baby mama/baby daddy culture is not something that white people can fix. ((Pioneer lightens up a little, sits back in his chair, and rolls his eyes)) Well...... Even if we were to focus on broken families as being one of the root causes of the violence, even the solution to THIS would be too shocking for many Black Americans to accept. You're right, the problem of broken families isn't one White people can fix....for the most part only Black women can fix it. Black women are going to have to stop leaving Black men or kicking them out of the home for "cheating". Black men (like most Arab, Latino, and Southern European men) tend to have high sex drives and love multipe women. Ofcourse I'm generalizing because some men can settle down with one woman while some men are GAY and don't want any....lol. But speaking as a Black man I know that most desire multiple sexual partners and will have them as long as the opportunity is there. Black women have to either accept this as a fact and insist on keeping the family together for the sake of the children or maintain the zero tolerance policy. As I said, other races of men cheat as well but their women aren't as quick to leave them because of religions or social obligations. So regardless of the behavior of their husbands...they tolerate it for the sake of keeping the family together. Hell, most of these non-Black women even put up with PHYSICAL ABUSE (which is unacceptable and NOT what I'm advocating) in order to keep their families together. So until Black women are willing to swallow their pride and put up with Black men "fucking around" for the sake of maintaining the Black family, don't look for the problem to solve itself anytime soon. Ofcourse Black women have the option of getting a non-Black man as a partner who they THINK will be more faithful, but even if it improves the condition of certain Black women who enjoy the relationship....this union does little to improve the condition of the Black FAMILY itself. The reluctance of many Black people to get abortions even when they KNOW they can't properly take care of their children is another major contributor to the problem of "broken families" in the Black community. If more Black people actually PLANNED their own families instead of having them planned by others or just having children by mistake...more children would grow up feeling loved and wanted and not feel like their lives had no purpose.

LOL @ the exchange between Cynique and Sara !!! It takes a lot to make me laugh out loud over something I'm looking at on-line, but those two remind me of the Itchy and Scratchy cartoon show that used to be on The Simpsons....lol. Cynique This is beautiful. I can read these stories all day long The more you write, the more it confirms the truth of what a lot of older people in my family used to tell me but I was too young to understand. In a way I shake my head when I read this because I can't tell if things have gotten better for Black folks or worse. I mean, the LAWS seem to be better for Black people and the wages seem to be up. But the actual community spirit, the family structure, and the businesses have been all but destroyed not to mention the amount of violence and stupid behavior that I didn't see just 30 years ago. I can't speak on what happened 50 or 80 in the past but I CAN bear witness that despite all the stats we may see on paper about Black wealth and there being more Black millionaires today, I remember more Black businesses 30 years ago. I'm talking REAL Black businesses with 4 walls...brick and mortar...like resturants, hotels, laundry mat, thrift shops, ect....that you could walk into. Not some on-line fly by night garbage. A negro got a Facebook page calling it his "own bid'niss". 　 Sara I can believe slavery began in the North. Not too long ago they found a slaver burial ground somewhere near New York City! Like Malcolm said, stop talking about down South....because as long as you're south of the Canadian border you're in the South, lol. After spending so much time in Canada I recognize the wisdom of his words.

LOL @ Sara focusing on Maywood...... Cynique No, you didn't come right out and say that inner city Black people were inherently violent or that only Whites could solve the problem.... But that's the position you seemed to have been taking. I have a bit of a lazy streak so I'm not going to sit here digging up links to prove to you that lead is one of the main if not THE main cause of violence among urban dwellers today. ...that along with the vaccines being used to affect the minds of our youth before they even leave the wombs of their mothers. With the syphilis experiments, AIDS, and other well documented cases of Black people being targeted, if you and Troy still laugh at this as just a silly conspiracy theory or even decide to take a fleeting consideration of it while continuing to drill down on "broken families" or "not having enough summer jobs in the ghetto" as the REAL reasons for Black violence.....there's nothing I can do to convince you otherwise. It's a no brainer for me. As SOON as I heard about the lead crisis in Flint and did a quick 15 minute research on the effects of lead poisioning on the brain and behavior of people....the pieces all fit together like a puzzle. Talk about empowerment.... There IS no power to solve a problem without knowing and accepting the TRUTH about it. Broken families, not enough good jobs, failing schools, too many kids in gangs, high incarceration rate, and the other ills you see in the Black communities of America are problems....but they're PERIPHERAL problems that all stem from the MAIN problem of a declining intellectual capacity and problems with misplaced aggression in the AfroAmerican community that has been quite apparent since atleast the mid 80s. Sara I thought you were supposed to be "sucking up" to me to win me over as an ally! You certainly won't accomplish that mission by challenging my positions...lol. As far as the crime rate of the suburbs. Most of those suburbs you're talking about are "inner ring" suburbs close to the city which means the municipalities are probably using the same water supply as the city of Chicago or there plumbing and water pipes are just as old and contaminated with lead. At any rate, we must remember that there are other environmental toxins BESIDES lead that Black people are being exposed to that is also influencing our behavior. Dick Gregory goes in and teaches very hard on this subject and exposed a lot of what we're just finding out today about lead in water and mercury in the vaccines over 20 years ago.

I'm not as qualified a student of history enough to argue with you two over whether or not justice is guaranteed in this world. Babies and little children who are obviously innocent often die violent and gruesome deaths while some war criminals and serial killers who are personally responsible for dozens if not hundreds of deaths often live to a relatively old age or if they ARE caught and executed.....their one death certainly doesn't equate to the amount of pain and suffering they caused their victims and their loved ones. However I will say that after over 40 something years of living and paying attention to the causes and effects of MY actions as well as others, there is most certainly some sort of universal law of reciprocity at work. But as far as examples of change in society coming up from the bottom........ -African American political and social success came from the bottom as poor and working class Blacks formed the bulk of those protesting and rioting in the streets. -Both the Haitian and French revolutions were also activated by the slaves and peasants of their respective societies. -Hell, even the American revolution was initiated by the criminals and peasants of Europe who were sent over here to work the land for the King and decided to stop being exploited and rebel. SOCIAL change often comes from the middle classes and intellectual classes. But REAL change (structural/governmental) usually does come from the bottom of a given society because they haven't been indoctrinated into the system anyway so they are less likely to maintain faith in it when it begins to fail them.

REAL change and justice always comes from the people at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder.....the poor and working class. Funny thing is although it's often INITIATED by the intellectuals and educated (lawyers, professors, ect..) who are smart enough to know that something is wrong but as you suggest are too tied up in the system to confront it, the change itself comes from the poor and people on the street who have less to lose and never really believed in the system to begin with. I believe in a type of universal law that doesn't have a real name in the English language but would probably be best described as "Karmic Credit and Karmic Debt". I also believe that not only do individuals carry this but organized groups such as corporations and nations also carry this Karmic Credit/Debt and it helps to influence their future. If we as a people want a better future for ourselves as well as the land we live in, I think it would be better for us to focus more on developing a better more just system rather than work on patching up the holes in an unjust and collapsing one.

I absolutely love hearing (reading actually) stories like this. I always love to get my information "first hand" from those who actually witnessed historical events instead of getting them out of books or movies or from biased historians. What I used to when I was younger but no longer find suprising now after hearing it from so many people over 60 was how segregated Illinois, Michgan, Ohio, and other northern communities were back then. We were taught in school that segregation and Jim Crow only existed in the South, but up North everyone lived together. But Black folks who lived in major Northern cities prior to the 50s routinely tell the same stories of segregation and open racism that may not have been as STRUCTURED as that of the South but definately existed defacto. Something tells me that actual SLAVERY probably existed in Northern states as well and if we could have talked to Black folks who lived up Northern during that time they would have told us different from what we read in history books. It's funny..... Everytime someone mentions ice men carrying ice to people's homes I think of those old Laurel and Hardy clips where they'd deliver a block of ice to a house on a hill so far up from the street that the ice block has melted into a mere ice cube by the time they get to the front porch.....lol. "Laurel and Hardy" still goes down as one of my favorite shows both past and present.

Cynique You didn't come right out and say it but the conclusion that you held that position..."that inner city Blacks are inherently violent and only White people in power can solve the violence problem"...is the only conclusion one can logically arrive at when they read statements like these: -Blacks and whites and particularly the mayor do care about what's going on if for no other reason than because they have a vested interest in cleaning up Chicago's image and curbing the widespread crime that threatens everyone's safety. -IMO, the situation will just have to play itself out because it involves changing the mindset of young black men. -Those creating the Chicago's violence are an underworld of outlaws, who strike fear in the whole south side. So it's not as if the populace is apathetic, because no longer is anybody immune to what used to just happen in the poorer neighborhoods. 　 ...from you while you offer few Black community implimented solutions besides demanding Black young men take more personal responsibility. Clearly a thinking person like yourself understands that every action has a cause and if you aren't willing to seriously entertain the idea that Black youth are being poisioned or otherwise induced towards violence and mayhem from an intentional outside source then you MUST believe it's internally driven! It's either one or the other...... Either Black men are just naturally more murderous and immoral than other races of men or something/someone is INFLUENCING them toward violence. This black think tank would also have to be convinced that unstable home lives, bad schools, lack of jobs and a flawed criminal justice system are not the root causes of the problem, and that environmental hazards that discriminate when it comes to who in the black population will be affected are, instead, the real reason for black crime. Perhaps you're a little fly on the wall and have been following me around for the past 4 or 5 months because that's EXACTLY the problem I'm dealing with right now. Most educated and naturally intelligent White people have no problem believing and understanding the effects of lead poisioning on crime. It's most Black people both un/under educated AND educated who seem to have a hard time understanding the connection. They point to these issues as the cause of the violence as you've just pointed out without understanding that a large percentage of each of these problems can be traced directly to the psychiatric effects of chronic neurologial poisoining. Rather than being the causes, these are actually the RESULTS of an even deeper more chemical/environmental problem. A dysfunctional life is often the result of a dysfunctional brain that doesn't know how to think logically or make rational decisions, and this what you see among far too many Black people in the United States today. Even most Africans who come to the United States easily recognize the intellectual problem of Black America. BTW, was there a high crime rate in Flint, Michigan? Flint is routinely ranked as one of the most violent (and half the time THE most violent) cities with over 100,000 in the United States. Like New Orleans, Atlanta, Birmingham Alabama and many other Black cities....Flint's violent crime rate is actually HIGHER than Chicago's. In most urban areas of the United States with a high concentration of Black people you find a high violence rate. But if you go outside of the United States to places like Canada or certain Carribean islands you don't find the same level of violence. Outside of open warfare, there is a direct correlation between the levels of violence in a given community and it's level of lead toxicity.

Cynique So in other words...... Black folks in Chicago are just violent and crazy and there's nothing we can do about it but sit down with our faces in our hands and wait on benevolent White folks to come in with a mighty solution? That's what I'm hearing in your one sided argument that focuses strictly on the violence and "after the fact" solutions to it rather than the causes of it. Sure you mentioned the fact that other races make up part of that homicide rate but we know that the vast majority of those homicides are Black people being killed by other Black people. Besides mentioning guns, you barely even TOUCH on the causes of why so much violence is going on in the community which leads me to infer that you....like others who trust the racist media in the United States who's been hyping the violence in Chicago for the past 5 years....actually believe that the residents of urban Chicago are just naturally prone to violence and the only solution must come from the outside and with brute force. The problem isn't criminal...the problem is PSYCHIATRIC. Those people are being POISONED with lead and other toxins that are making them violent and hyper aggressive. Not just in Chicago but in urban areas all over the nation. Racists in the media are also doing their part by hyping up the violence in order to encourage it which is clear as a bell if you look at the statistics before and after Obama took office back in 2008. Violence in Chicago wasn't even talked about in the national media until HE took office and Fox News started drilling down on it and then other media outlets caught on and THEN the violence began to rise. And if you think for split second that White politicians are actually concerned about the homicide rates among Black and Latino communities, you aren't as cynical as your name suggests.....lol. Why would people, most of whom believe Blacks and Browns to be mentally and morally inferior anyway and have a vested interest in DEPOPULATING the land and using it to build more housing for wealthy Whites and Asians actually take measures to STOP the killings and stabilize the communties? They're NOT going to stop it. They're going to do their best to INCREASE it because things are going exactly as planned....as THEY planned it. The only people who will stop the violence going on in the urban areas of Chicago are intelligent and positive Black men who make up their minds to put an end to it.

Troy Rahm Emmanuel is definately part of the problem and speaks to the point I made on another thread about Democrats often being just as racist as Republicans. They just join the party for their own personal motives regardless as to the overall theme the party is supposed to represent like racial tolerance and social justice. My understanding is that Rahm grew up inside the city of Chicago. And one thing I've noticed about a lot of Whites who grew up in the actual city (but not in Black neighborhoods themselves) whether it's Detroit, Chicago, New York, or Milwaukee......they tend to be more racist than Whites from the suburbs. Again, I must make a distinction between Whites who grew up in working class neighborhoods inside a large city.....and Whites who grew up among Blacks inside a Black neighborhood in the city. Whites who grew up inside major cities in these "ethnic enclaves" tend to be unapologetically racist and have a very anti-Black attitude even more so than Whites from the suburbs. Cynique and Troy Another problem is Western civilization itself. This may seem a little far fetched, but after studying history I believe Western civilization has run it's course and people are tired of it. The family values and social ethics that have governed Western societies are no longer holding weight with most people as they begin to pull away from Christianity and other organized religions. So peopel are coming up with their own morals and ethical codes and other people are just abandoning ALL forms of morality together and doing whatever they want because there is nobody or real system "in charge" to establish absolute rights or wrongs. The latter periods of Western civillization was build upon Christianity and atleast the Bible and the church guided the morals of people....now people are pulling away from that. Wealthy Whites from the suburbs have developed a form of ALTRUISM as a moral compass which definately doesn't work for most poor and people of color who are too needy and frustrated to practice an altruistic moral code. They see no future or hope for things beyond thier day to day existance and this is creating a sort of morbid indifference where anything goes. I believe a new civilization or atleast some sort of cultural renaissance will give society and especially the youth the hope needed to re-energize them to CARE again and motive them.

Cynique is probably an element of truth in what you say in regard to lead and toxins having an adverse effect on blacks. But why does this only affect certain ones? Not all black males in the ghettos embrace the thug life and some do escape their dire circumstance and go on to lead rewarding lives. For the same reason that we KNOW smoking cigarettes causes lung cancer but not all people who smoke cigarettes will get lung cancer nor can all cases of lung cancer traced to cigarette smoking...... Some people have a stronger constitution than others and can be exposed to the same levels of toxins and they not have an adverse effect on them. We KNOW lead causes aggression and low IQ levels....we KNOW this. There is no doubt about it. We know that the lead contamination levels in the United States are highest in the inner cities where the oldest pipes are. If you look at the lead levels found in the water supply of urban areas of the United States there is almost a direct link between it and the levels of violent crime. We need to also look at the VACCINES being administered to so many children now a days and how that is also affecting their behavior. Numerous studies have linked certain vaccinations to autism and other behavioral problems in children born after 1970.....especially in Black boys. Now I'm not saying these are the ONLY causes of the violence in the ghetto but I believe they are the MAIN causes. At the very lease there can no acceptable solution to the violence in America that doesn't include removing the old lead pipes from not only the water systems but every household's plumbing as well as all of the old paint from buildings similar to what was done with asbestos. And forget about the police solving this problem. Chicago's police aren't commited to lowering the crime and violence rate in Chicago's Black neighborhoods...they're just committed to CONTAINING it and keeping it in the ghetto and away from downtown where it can affect business and tourism. Typical third world style policing. Troy We should be used to White people not caring about Black lives by now. But the problem is a lot of BLACK PEOPLE don't even seem to care about their own lives and the lives of their friend and loved ones anymore. As the example you pointed out about drugs being brought into the Black community. This has been well known since the 90s yet you have so many Black folks who STILL use and sell drugs not seeming to care that it's part of a plan to destroy them. And the same can be said of gangsta rap and other negatives that have been introduced to the community. People are even getting shot and killed at PEACE RALLIES that were put on to end the violence.....damn! Besides the lead poisoning and other toxins in urban environments such as the vaccines that have been linked to violence and aggression, we should also look at the lack of strong POSITIVE Black men that exist in most urban neighborhoods today and how their absents is causing things to spiral out of control. Back before the 80s, when most poor and lower middle class Black people were forced to live in the same neighborhoods you had a lot of decent working Black folks who wouldn't allow certain things to take place. That old Black woman who sat on her porch all day wouldn't let children cuss on her block and would spank them or call their parents if she saw them doing something wrong. Hard working Black men with rough hands would be quick to organize and beat the hell out of a man who went around the neighborhod breaking into houses or messing with young girls. Now that many middle and working class Black folks have moved out to the suburbs, the inner cities have become an oasis of crime and moral decay. Even among criminals and hustlers, if you look at the 70s and further back many of the stronger more dominant criminals kept order in the ghetto and wouldn't allow certain things like rape and harming children to take place. But they got locked up. Now you got a new group of hustlers and criminals with no moral code and anything goes. Remember back in the old days when people who drank liquor didn't do drugs, and those who did drugs didn't drink? Even among substance abusers there was a code. Not anymore.....now they're doing EVERYTHING....lol. I believe I mentioned this several times before. I don't believe the violence is going to end until POSITIVE Black men stand up and organize a group to go into the urban areas of this nation and secure it themselves. We can forget about traditional law enforcement doing it. The most they'll do is CONTAIN the violence and try to keep it in the poorer areas....a tactic usually practiced in most third world nations.

One of the first thing lawyers learn in their practice is it's not about justice, it's about WINNING YOUR CASE. When you understand and accept this, you go far in the legal system. If you don't and the procedures irritate your conscience.....it's time to look for another profession. As far as our brother Troy...... For years, I've considered him the "Berry Gordy" and AALBC the "Motown Records" of Black writers, especially Black novelists. I'm just glad he still has his own website instead of moving everything over to Facebook like so many other independant Black outlets.

VL I'm not sure what to say because in a way you're right, I..and many other men.....love feeling strong and needed. Because of the testosterone factor that generates feelings of pride, ego, aggression, and competition (in line with the original theme of this thread)...men generally a stronger desire to feel needed, to feel like they're in charge, that they are the strong ones. This is one of the reasons most men are reluctant to ask for help when looking for a particular item in a store or ask for directions while driving while most women see no problem with it. Men desiring to feel strong is just, nothing can be done about it unless nature itself changes. No amount of social engineering or conversation will be able to "change" most men. As Cynique pointed out, a wise woman knows how to stroke her man's ego and make him feel needed and loved instead of trying to change him. And in turn, like you said men make a woman feel needed and loved by giving her attention, sincere compliments, massages, and just showing her over all love and affection. Thus both know how to play thier part in the game of love and live in harmony with eachother. Cynique I agree with you that an ego CAN be a man's downfall. But more often than not, a man's ego is one of the building blocks for his success in life.. It's far better for a man to have pride and ego than not. And from personal experience, despite what they may SAY....most of the women I've been with found egotistical men FAR more attractive then men with no sense of pride or respect for themselves. Oh they may make funny faces and talk about how proud and arrogant and egotistical a man may be among themselves; but they they'll still find him fascinating, interesting, manly, and show him a measure of SEXUAL respect.....as opposed to the man who has no pride or ego but is a good "friend" who will always stay in the "friend" or "nice guy" zone...lol. A man's ego is the foundation from which his ambitions are built upon. Take away his ego, and you take away his ambition....his drive to accomplish things in life.

I said it before....... Most of this violence and aggression can be traced directly back to the lead content in the water along with other chemicals in urban environments that are affecting the minds of the people and making them hyper aggressive. Also, the media isn't helping the way they've been constantly GLORIFYING (for lack of a better term) the violence of Chicago for the past few years. Shootings WERE going down in Chicago until the media started focusing on every singly homicide there and reporting it nationwide as if it was the only city with suffering from violence. Then movies like Chiraq came out further glorifying and dramatizing the situation there. Now the youth of Chicago have a reputation they feel they must live up to. Ignorance is a bad state to be in. When people don't understand mental health and how chemicals can affect their brain and their behavior, they'll constantly be plagued with problems like crime, violence, poor academic performance, dysfunctional families, and other forms of community breakdown. I'll tell you......it's hard to feel sorry for people when you try to sit them down and explain to them what their problems are and they either make light of it or ignore you. I know things happen to innocent people and I know little babies die and children get killed. But the older I get, the more I understand how FAIR life really is and why a lot of people have the problems that they have. The older I get the more I realize why so many White people are in the positions they are in and why so many Black people are in the positions THEY are in. White people recognized and understood the issues of lead and other environmental toxins and they made a fuss about it until much of it was cleaned up in their communities. Too many Black folks simply don't care. They don't care about the environment. They don't care about how many jobs are available....as long as they PERSONALLY have one. They don't care about crime....unless they PERSONALLY are victims. I've been all over the United States from coast to coast and quite frankly there is too much apathy, indifference, and down right IGNORANCE in the Black community. Even when they are told what their problems are too many are too indifferent to actively solve them. I just with that righteous, sane, rational minded Black people could be rescued from the chaos and foolishness so many of them live around so that they could help build new, strong, progressive communities and save the future generations and prevent the negative element from spreading.