Pioneer1

It was a sales job where we would often have to give seminars to and take questions from a very diverse public from pregnant women to college kids to construction workers to grumpy retirees. You'd have a sales pitch but often times people will catch you off guard by asking questions or challenging you to verify what you say. You heard of someone throwing the proverbial "curb ball" question haven't you? He wanted to see how well you could focus on a subject....have your attention diverted and be sharp enough to quickly handle the distraction....then resume your focus on the original subject.

Troy It's like trying to herd a bunch of selfish cats together the same as you would sheep, lol. Ofcourse. Even in the Mafia, the bosses know to give their capos and soldiers a decent cut of the profits and treat them with respect....to keep them happy and loyal. He doesn't really give a damn about them, but he has enough sense to know that if his subordinates aren't happy they'll abandon him so that the feds take him away or another family takes him out. Most rich Black people STILL haven't learned from OJ Simpson the importance of staying in touch with and sharing some of your wealth and influence with your community, if only as a form of insurance so that they come to your aid when you need them. Likewise, too many Black people with money are indifferent to the various laws and other legislative activity of their local communities and often become concerned when it's too late and those laws end up eating away their wealth. You mean you're worth 5 million but you didn't know what the tax policies in your county was until the sheriff's department slapped a yellow sticker on your window? I understand what you're saying. If I'm in trouble the first One I call on is God, but if a man/woman can save me I don't care WHAT color they are.....I'll take the help and be very appreciative of it. But let is reason together over something........... You and I both know most of our people don't know how to speak in coded language let along understand it. If we didn't use the terms "Black this" and "Black that" and specifically target Black people to get their act together, often times things go right over their heads and somebody else picks it up and uses what was meant to help them. I don't know how many times I'm in a book store or at an event and start talking about how we need to get our schools together and clean up the crime in our neighborhoods.....I could be talking to a group with both Blacks and Whites but the White people will start nodding thier heads and join the conversation while the Blacks will start playing on their cell phone. I often have to say "Black schools" or "Black neighborhoods" to get thier attention. We should all live together as decent human beings but very few people are going to respect you as an equal if you have nothing to offer. Arabs, Koreans, Cubans.....they don't come to America and operate as "human beings" as much as they operate collectively as Arabs, Koreans, and Cubans setting up thier own little enclaves and doing business with eachother. In a capitalist society you are in constant competition with other people not only as individuals but as groups.

Since I'm in this thread, I think it's only proper manners that I address the question posed in it before I address other issues........... Was Hugo Chavez a Better Black Leader Than President Obama? *If the term "Black Leader" is being defined as a leader who happens to be Black.... No Because Hugo Chavez was not Black. It's obvious he had African ancestry and I believe he mentioned it, however he also had European (Spanish) and Indian ancestry as well and looked more Meztizo than Afro. *However if the term "Black Leader" is defined as a leader (of any race) who Black people are following. I would have to say the answer would be Yes Chavez's socialist policies benefitted the poor and lower classes much more than the capitalist "bail 'em out" policies of President Obama. And since most Black people are on the lower end of the economic ladder, they would benefit more under HIS policies than under Obama's. I'm a capitalist, but I don't believe in crony capitalism and I also believe some things (like healthcare) should be socialized. But concerning the brutha in the video............ I'm not sure if it's because he's driving and not totally focused on what he's saying, but the gentleman in the video seems too angry and inarticulate to adequately get his point across. One shouldn't be so quick to make a video and broadcast it to a world wide audience until they know WHAT they want to say and HOW to say it....less you sound so sloppy that people will be too busy laughing at you to focus on what you're trying to say. Now I agree with him that President Obama hasn't done enough for Black people or most of the liberal base who put him in. However if you want someone to do something you must first figure out what exactly it is you want and put it down in writing and present it to him as a a PLAN. What do you want? Better schools? Better paying jobs? Free healthcare? What is your AGENDA? Another problem is too many Black people think that all they have to do is vote their man in and thier job is done. A negro will put on a suit and tie and go vote, stop to get some Popeye's chicken and a red pop, and go home to eat and sleep soundly thinking his job is done. Once you put a man in office you must support him financially and keep the money coming in to counter the money being sent from the opposing lobbyists to make sure your man stays on the inside and your agenda stays on the table. Also you must support him through the media by constantly getting on television and radio arguing for YOUR issues and interests and not just going along with whatever your particular political party is promoting today. Its' not magic, It's about money and influence....plain and simple. BTW..... I believe the "turtle looking guy" on CNN he's refering to is Don Lemon. He's a pretty professional journalist in my opinion but being openly gay (not sure why HE had to come out while Anderson Cooper gets to stay in the closet) it's clear he supports Obama because of his pro-gay stance.

It's funny you mentioned the difference between being simply smart and being quick witted. I was actually having this converation the other day with an old friend from highschool. We were talking about people who did so well in school and seemed to be very smart but weren't doing the best financially. Simply being "smart" or holding a lot of information in your head doesn't always equal success. Even when I was a kid we used to "cap" on eachother (some called it playing the dozens), and I noticed that some of the smartest kids weren't very quick in coming up with jokes, couldn't keep their cool, and were constantly slammed by kids who were otherwise considered dumb or slow academically but were very quick in coming up with material to keep the crowd laughing. It's not enough to be intelligent, you have to know how to properly apply that intelligence in a practical manner. This is why in most successful firms, the HR manager doesn't just look at an applicant's academic records but also thier extracurricular activities and hobbies and look forward to that ultimate sit down interview. Years ago I went on one job interview where the guy invited me in and started talking to me and in the middle of the conversation he tossed a softball towards me and I caught it. He said he was testing my reflexes, lol. At the time he did it I didn't see the logic in testing my physical reflexes for a sales job, but weeks later I understood completely.

I agree that most of it comes from a lack of proper health care and laziness with regards to routine physical exams period. But that prostate exam itself is quite invasive! Most men don't care too much for a greasy finger stuck up their ass. If you're confused about your sexuality...... If you're not sure if you're gay or not..... A good prostate exam will help you "find" yourself....lol. But I especially agree that most of the health problems many Black men suffer from comes from ignorance, both medical and nutritional. It's a known fact that people of West African descent don't tolerate red meat and alcohol as well as people of European descent and the over indulgence in it leads to all type of health problems. Also, certain heavy metals and other toxins seem to favor some organs over others. Mercury favors the brain and nervous system. Some toxins favor the liver and kidneys. Others favor the lungs. Nickle and some other metals and toxins settle in the prostate and can cause problems. Over the years, if these toxins aren't routinely flushed out of the system then they build up and often express themselves as various diseases. Also.... Although I haven't heard this mentioned anywhere else yet, since the prostate is atleast partially responsible for making semen. Perhaps the sexual practices of many Black men in the West is having a detrimental effect on their prostates.

Troy I hear what you're saying, but that can be said about any type of science/technology. Some may have said the diabolical experiments carried out by the Nazis were grounds enough to halt ALL future experiments for scientific/meidcal research. Hell, somebody can make an argument that you shouldn't build cars because there's a history of angry women using them to run over baby daddies. We can't use a few negative examples as an excuse to retard progress. ((Pioneer stands up with one hand on his hip and the other pointing directly ahead with a stern look on his face and a puzzled look on his lady's face )) Science and humanity must continue to march forward! As I said before, examples of righteousness are.... -producing more food -curing diseases -protecting the environment It's not that hard or obscure to figure out the right way to use science and technology. If you're using it to help people it's good, if you're using it to hurt or kill people it's wrong. Cynique Don't ask me.....lol. No one CC's me memos on God's plans for humanity. If I were to speculate, I believe that this planet and this realm we're living in is just a lower level of many realities and we as human beings are placed here to learn and progress before moving on. Perhaps part of that is in appreciating and maintaining the beautiful world that was given to us. I believe you said you study Buddhism, and ofcourse it teaches one to be content and at peace with that which they can't change. But that mentality can often retard progress because one rarely knows what one can or can't change unless they try. BTW.... I noticed that you twice used the word "god" with the small "g"....not the big "G". ((Pioneer grins)) ....as if you're trying to play it safe, lol.

((shrugs shoulders)) Perhaps a proper argument and request for their collective support hasn't been presented to them. Most professional Black people in the upper income range.....unless they got there through some natural talent like singing or playing ball....tend to be very educated and only deal with other highly educated professionals. Like you said, most of them run in their own circles and hang out int he suburb. I also believe many are embarrassed by the ignorant and stereotypical behavior exhibited by so many of the Black underclass and don't know what to do about it so they try to hide from it as much as they can. Not having a college education I haven't had lot of opportunities to sit down and talk to members of the professional Black community. But being in that community I'm sure YOU have quite a few friends who wouldn't mind coming on this site and engaging in meaningful discussion with people like me and others who have ideas of how they can help themselves through helping others. While no doubt Whites have experienced devastating lost, some say this depression recession and real estate collapse has all but erased MOST of the wealth AfroAmericans have accumulated the past 30 years! Any negro intelligent enough to earn a degree and achieve success should be intelligent enough to know the importance of protecting the success they achieved. Surely the wealthiest and most educated AfroAmericans can't feel too secure living in a bubble to themselves while they see the bottom dropping out from so many other upper income Black households.

I thought that was Dwayne from "What's Happening" at first. "Hey heeey hey!" Or more like Michael Jackson when he was 18. But it's always good to see an intelligent young brother or sister on such a popular program because it helps to offset much of the negativity that the world often sees. I also like watching Jeopardy, although I don't watch it as much as I used to. I used to watch it everyday at an old job and would say the answers (questions) outloud trying to show off. One day in the lunch room a White guy in Ohio actually told me to my face, "I didn't know colored guys liked watching Jeopardy!" This was in the 90's!

I'm a God fearing man. Man can never be "God" nor can we ever take the place of God. I also believe that as human beings God placed us on this planet to accumulate knowledge and rule it, therefor we not only have a right but possibly even a duty to gain as much knowledge as The Creator allows. ...but for RIGHTEOUS purposes. Like producing more food, curing diseases, protecting environment, ect. Not to manipulate or destroy people or trick them into being consumers or experiment on them.

While I'm on the subject of what they USED TO teach in school...... All girls used to have to learn home economics in the public school system. I saw photographs from back in the 1930s where an entire class of girls would be taken to a park in the spring time to sit in the shade and learn how to sew! I've noticed that a lot of the domestic skills like proper cleaning, cooking, and sewing that they used to teach ALL girls in public schools were craftily taken out of the public school system with the excuse that it was too sexist. But these skills are still being taught to some girls at home and in private institutions. In some communities this has further widened the social divide between the haves and have-nots because now you have a situation where SOME girls are growing up knowing all the skills it takes to be sophisticated young "ladies" and make good mothers and wives, while others grow up vulgar. Just like now only SOME boys who have fathers or other family in the skilled trades may be able to pick up these valuable skills from their connections while others grow up knowing nothing. Atleast under the old system ALL boys and girls had an opportunity to learn these occupational and domestic skills. Again....an organized dismantling and destruction of public education.

Lol....you mean I've been "holding back" for nothing???? Troy I'm not saying spanking is appropriate for ALL students. Again, some people don't need physical punishment But I believe the punishment should fit the crime, a violent punishment is often fitting for a violent crime; especially for people who have nothing to lose and everything to benefit from laying up in jail with a warm bed and plenty of food for shooting somebody. It's the same CONCEPT with some children. Spanking (or perhaps more like running laps or cleaning and other chores) is the ideal punishment for SOME students because trying to appeal to thier reason or guilt or get them to see what they did was wrong is a waste of time......they don't care. While you're suspending them or got them in the corner for a "time out" they're plotting and planning more devilishment to get into. The only reason suspension and expulsion worked in the past is because most students had caring and concerned parents that would whip thier ass for getting in trouble, now with parents who are so busy working or simply don't care.....suspending and expelling children who don't want to be in school anyway is like a vacation, not a punishment. Physical punishment (not JUST beating but anything that causes temporary but effective physical discomfort) serves not only as a punishment but a deterent so that the person thinks twice before committing the offense again. As I said in other posts that deal with Black sexual virility, we can't allow what racist White men did to and thought of our people in the past govern our behavior today. If something works....it works regardless of who did it or why. People have been spanking little children to get them to behave and it has worked for THOUSANDS of years even before White people even heard of America or knew this planet was round, so it's not "their" technique to own. To reference the Bible again, you have an ancient Hebrew proverb that says "spare the rod and spoil the child". This was atleast 2000 years before TransAtlantic slavery. As I said in my previous post, physical punishment is appropriate for only CERTAIN offenses, usually violent ones or those of extreme disrespect and disruption. ___________________________________________________________________________________ That's assuming that the bureaucrats would all be racist Whites. I don't believe this to be the case as long as AfroAmericans effectively apply themselves the way they did just 50 years ago. But no system in the world is going to help people who are too mentally lazy and morally inadequate to govern themselves. In many of the jobs I've worked on I've noticed the same trend....... Qualified Black people who've been there for YEARS and know the job inside and out but everytime a position for management opens up they refuse because they don't want the responsibility. They're too busy with their "keeedz" or they want to hang out and drink and party all night and don't want to get up an hour earlier Always an excuse for not wanting to take the responsibility for being in charge, and when they end up with the crappiest jobs or no job at all....they grumble. I've always liked telling people what to do....lol....so I've never had that problem, and I've met other Black people like that so I have confidence that the Black people who WANT to succeed will even under that type of economic environment. As I've said numerous times, there is an orchestrated attempt by the rightwing corporatists to dismantle and destroy the public educational system and create a nation of semi-literate slaves. However the BIGGEST factors contributing to the failure of so many Black students isn't the educational system itself or thier ability to function in it successfully, it's their will and desire (or lack of it) to learn along with unconcerned parents who won't provide enough support. Cynique Vocational schools still exists but unlike the work-shop and wood-shop classes of the past that were offered free in highschool, now you usually have to PAY a community college or specially school to learn these trades after you've already graduated. m OK with the idea of not teaching trades while you're still in school because most people under 20 don't know what they want to do in life anyway. However I believe vocational and trade schools should be free and more accessable for all those who qualify. My idea of a properly executed physical punishment wouldn't be a of some 22 year old female teacher trying to tackle a 200 lbs 18 year old jock, put him over her knee, and spank him, lol. There would be trained and designated security officers in the office appointed to dispense physical punishment to students while being recorded for legal purposes to curtail abuse. Infact, adequate security would be a must in just about every public school in my ideal system of education.

You probably said that in jest..... But I don't think a time like that will ever come because the preference for monogamy as well as the concern for children is so biologically ingrained in most women that few will ever really trust a man who cheats on his wife and/or abandons his children. The only reason Clinton was so popular was because he did an amazing job cleaning up the economic mess Reagan made and the Republican alternatives were so diabolical. . You're right about the physical desire part. I've never committed adultery but to be honest, on the occasions when I have been "tempted" to engage, the biggest factors weren't the lust but the more emotional desires..... Having a woman around who giggles and laughs at all my jokes. The knowledge that I can "hit it" if I so desired with no problems. And some people just have a "chemistry" that agrees with you regardless of thier other attributes or thier marital status and it's a struggle to ignore that and be professional. I can see why some cultures thought it was a bad idea for men and women being together in the workplace. You go to work not looking forward to work itself but to that pretty little thang working across the way from you. I believe for most men sex itself is a physical need more so than an emotional one as it is for most (not all) women; and because of this a lot of women know they can manipulate and influence men in powerful positions with thier sexuality. This is very dangerous, not only for the men themselves but for everyone under their control and influence whether they're government leaders, CEOs, or minsters. It's for this reason that in Judaism Rabbis generally required to be married, in the past most Ministers were expected to be married, and in most cultures political leaders were expected to be married and with children. To show that they were not only responsible men who could manage a family, but supposedly having a woman already would cut down on their sexual desire and temptation to be easily swayed by women with an agenda or those with an agenda who may USE women to influence these men or bring them down (Clinton, Menendez, Anthony Weiner, ect....)

This may sound silly but I think legalized and regulated prostitution would solve much of the problems of sexual misconduct so many men in high positions find themselves in.

You're right, it's more promiscuous that polygamous. Actually I don't have a problem with either as I believe a sexually liberated society is a society less prone to perversion or sexual misconduct. As for me and myself, MY behavior is more conservative as I believe children should only be produced within the confines of marriage to people who are financially stable enough to support them, but I wouldn't force my personal values on everyone in society. I'm a personal conservative who believes in a liberal society if that makes any sense.....lol. I just ask that people be responsible in whatever behavior they choose to engage in practicing safe sex to prevent the spread of disease and taking care of any children that they produce.

Although I wasn't raised in the Black professional class, I've always liked the idea of a Black Bourgeoisie. I think there is some truth to the Talented Tenth theory as suggested by WEB Dubois, and thought Black leaders should have embraced the idea rather than reject it Starting in the 60s.........as an act of challenging the contemporary societal norm which was racist and exclusive to them, a lot of Black people started embracing the negative element of society and values attributed to ghetto low-class behavior as a form of rebellion. I think this was a big mistake because that negative element continued to grow and grow until now ghetto low class behavior has become so common in the Black American community that it's considered normal and to act like you are upperclass and have values isn't considered "keeping it real". At some point, progressive Black Americans will have to separate themselves from the negative element and shake off the dead weight of unproductive negroes. The will and need to just survive a more advanced society will eventually override the guilt of abandoning a large percentage of our people.

((Pioneer takes a few puffs on his pipe while contemplating how to say this without getting alienated or possible banned from the site)) I take a totally different position from all of this "corporate conditioning" that focuses on excessive education and the overuse of technology in teaching. Much of it proves to be a waste of money and resources anyway. The biblical term of not throwing pearls to swine comes to mind. This may not be the politically correct thing to say but most people aren't cut out for higher education, they should focus on and be satisfied with a working-class related career that allows them to make a decent living for themselves and their families. It is for that reason that I think we need to bring certain cognative tests back in highschool so that we can determine who would be better off receiving further academic training for careers that require higher education like medicine and engineering, who would be better off learning a skilled trade or working in agriculture, and who should be satisfied in the service industry and manufacturing and don't need further education. Not to DENY anyone who wants to further their education (at their own expense) but so we don't turn out useless degrees like apple-cider mills. This type of society (post industrial capitalistic) works best when the majority of the population consists of a large thriving workingclass that can support itself. A society of big headed intellectuals with useless degrees with no one willing or even able to do physical work is a society doomed for failure.

Troy One of the biggest mistakes of reasonable people is assuming that everyone else responds to reason. Most little children and even some adults don't respond to reason or rational, they only respond to pain and pleasure. Which means if they do something socially unacceptable they must get some sort of concrete punishment they can feel rather than simply trying to appeal to their sense of shame....or lack there of. The quality of education as well as the safety of other children shouldn't be compromised for the sake of some ineffective experimental form of discipline that we now know doesn't work and creates little monsters in the class room. My ideal school is one that acts as a "surrogate" that a parent can trust to teach and discipline their children in their temporary absence. This includes properly disciplinine them. We KNOW that most little children need to be spanked from time to time when they misbehave, this isn't rocket science. Better for the teacher to spank them as children than for the police to shoot them down as adults.

I think they should bring back corporal punishment to public schools. Not for learning problems ofcourse, but for disciplinary problems.

Troy I think you misunderstood what I was saying to Delano. I wasn't AGREEING that Blackness is an ideal, style of dress, attitude, or music. I was empathizing with Delano's point of view showing that I understand that this is HIS position before moving forward to offer my own.

Not only is unethical behavior and immorality problems, it appears that many youth don't even KNOW right from wrong anymore. They are confused and have lost their moral compass because they don't have anyone at home or in school guiding them or correcting them. I believe civilization is a process that is not instinctual but must be "taught". Teachers in school don't even correct children on their grammar anymore. They hear them talking like slaves and morons and just smirk and ignore it.

Troy If you notice, this confusion on what roles men and women should assume is more pronounced among the poor and working classes. Among the rich and upper-middle class the traditional roles of men and women are not only alive and well but continually instilled and passed down through generations. I believe gender neutrality is one of the techniques that have been historically used by the upperclasses to keep lower classes in a perpetual state of instability, men and women fighting, and broken families that ensures destitution and poverty. Anika In order for men to assume responsibilities for thier families the women must be willing to ALLOW them to. But then again........ If that man has a history of irresponsibility and ignorance, it's kind of hard to do that. ((Pioneer holds up a hand in protest)) Ahh...but I beg to differ. The good ole boy is a euphemism for WHITE MEN who support eachother in their wrong doings against women and people of color. We were never apart of it, nor were we allowed to be. Now Black men can can be quite sexist, and have been known to abuse and mistreat their women, I'm not denying that. But we weren't the ones sitting around in smoke filled rooms for centuries plotting and planning how to best oppress women of color around the world and exploit them for sex and labor. If Black men didn't get a share of the spoils, why should they get a share the blame?,

One of the things that made me angry during the 2008 presidential race was how Sarah Palin constantly refered to having broken up the "ole boy network" in Alaska when she became the Governor.....and how no one in the media called her the contradiction of being a Republican Conservative who brags about her record on women's rights. The Republican Party ITSELF is the grand ole "good ole boy" party.

I like Michelle Rhee I think she sees the problem as it is and is SINCERE (not just playing political games) in her efforts of trying to improve the quality of education so many children are getting in urban America. I also think the fact that she's Asian American has something to do with this as she doesn't have a vested interest in humiliating Black children or seeing them fail. Besides being a tax-based system which favors the wealthiest families, the problem with most innercity public school districts is in management. You have: a) Too many White people who KNOW what it takes to operate a decent system but drag their feet or flat out refuse to do it because they secretly hope the system fails anyway.; b )Too many sincere but unqualified Black and Brown people who want better schools for their children and try little local programs to make a difference but lack the money, power, and knowledge to improve things on thier own. Ever since Brown vrs Board of Education when the Feds started de-segregating the schools, the right-wing have been trying to destroy the public educational system to maintain inequality in education. Many of the things they used to teach children in middleschool, you now have to go to a technical college and pay to learn. If you notice, since the 50s every year more money and programs are cut as they slowly dismantle the system and promote private schools, charter schools, and alternative schools otherwise known as LEGAL SEGREGATION. M-PACT believes we should do away with the district by district tax-based system anyway and have a nationalized and more STANDARDIZED public educational system. That way all children will have access to the same opportunity of education despite their income or what region they live in.

Delano I hear what you're saying but you're looking at things from a creative and cultural aspect. Black being more of an ideal. A style of dress, attitude, music, and historic struggle. I'm looking at things from a more scientific and regulatory aspect. The word "Black" being far too inaccurate in describing how most of our people look and increasingly how they think. That's the problem. It's leads to more confusion and more people can "play around" with the definition. If ANYBODY with Black ancestry can be called Black..... When we demand more "Black" new anchors on television they can run out and get some nearly White "octaroons" with only an eighth of Black ancestry but pretty much look like other White people and prop them up as "Black". I personally like a more clearly defined society. But then again, I tend to be more left-brained so I love categorizing and classifying anyway.

Anika Three points................. 1. I am sexist. I dont' believe women or men are superior to the other but I do believe that being biologically and even psychologically different both have separate roles to play in society. 2. Dark skinned women of color SHOULD NOT imitate White women in terms of make-up. What looks good on them doesn't necessarily look good on our women and vice versa. Red lipstick and blue eye shadow is for lightskinned women with blue/green eyes. At the risk of sounding gay (I'm homophobic as well)........... Black women of her complexion should wear a darker shade of brown. 3. Finally.... Let us be clear, the "ole boy" network is made up of WHITE men, not all men in general. Black men should never be accused of being in some "good ole boy" group.