How the Black Ghettos of DC and Other Cites Were formed

[Troy]

Disintegration: The Splintering of Black America by Eugene Robinson

 

Read chapter 3 which describes the history of great Black communities and how they declined,

 

@Pioneer1 and the good @ProfD you'll be familiar with this story.

 

Chapter Three

 

I have not gotten to the part where Robinson discusses when we had agreed upon Black leaders.

 

Chapter 4 talks about Black women and how they have crafted a happy lifestyle devoid of men where they travel freely and all sorts of things alone.

 

[ProfD]

Definitely looks interesting. I'll circle back to this thread once I've had a chance to read it.

[richardmurray]

I have never read the book @Troy but I will like to know how much does he discuss the black community in the late 1800s in the usa and before the multiple migrations up and out of the south plus the multiple additions of other black people. Cause based on what you say, the splintering he is talking about is not geographic but organizational and I oppose that angle of perspective.

The reality is the black community in the usa at one time was circa 90% southern from southern maryland to florida to east texas to oklahoma, for rarely better or usually worse, and when black people flew out the south : for all the various reasons that I will recite if someone needs me to, that is when the real splintering began.

The dysfunctions/disorganizations/..splinterings during and after the first migration and onwards was inevitable. I oppose the historical assessment that they were not.

I know you, Troy,  oppose that position and I assume the writer based on your presentation of his work. But I stand on my assessment.   

I have written poems about my love for the HArlem of Yore but I will be a liar if I think the problems the black community had in harlem didn't exist when we moved into harlem in droves in the first place. 

Black people ran out of the south with our tail between our legs, impotent while suggesting inside our community it was the correct thing to do , and paid the price ever since for the truth that it wasn't. Hindsight is cheap but hindsight isn't false. 

[Troy]

2 hours ago, richardmurray said:

The reality is the black community in the usa at one time was circa 90% southern from southern maryland to florida to east texas to oklahoma, for rarely better or usually worse, and when black people flew out the south : for all the various reasons that I will recite if someone needs me to, that is when the real splintering began.

The dysfunctions/disorganizations/..splinterings during and after the first migration and onwards was inevitable. I oppose the historical assessment that they were not.

 

I don't recall ever writing anything to oppose this statement  I believe the first line regarding our population being predominantly concentrated is the south is a fact. The idea that our splintering began then seems plausible and I would not take issue with that.  

 

I have only read the first four chapters and do not know if the author addresses our splintering going back to the late 19th century.

 

Still, in my short life time.  I've seen the idea of a Black leader and a strong Black institution vaporize, along with our media.  

 

I believe part of the problem is how our economy works; we favor the creation of monopolies and a winner takes all mentality.  This hurts the entire country, but in when folks catch a cold Black folks get pneumonia...

 

I heard a stat that the New York Times has a online subscriber base larger than all other newspapers combined -- including the Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, LA Times etc.  If the LA Times can't compete with the New York Times online what does that say for a Black-owned independent newspaper online? 

 

The New York Times, increasingly controls the online narrative.  We deem ourselves unworthy unless the Times mentions us.  The Times defines who our leaders are by virtue of their coverage. The times raised the profile of Donald Trump ushering him into the white house.

 

Yes, there are a variety of things that have resulted in a splintered Black community.

 

I quess the one thing we can agree on is that the Black community is indeed splintered.

 

Are Black Greek letter organizations, Masons, Boule, etc, a unifying or splintering force in the Black community? 

 

[richardmurray]

@Troy

I made an ass out of myself. you didn't write anything that I viewed anyway that opposed my position straightly. I assumed you wouldn't see the timeline for black people in the usa after the first exodus as inevitable.

 

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I have only read the first four chapters and do not know if the author addresses our splintering going back to the late 19th century.

ok, I figured in a book about history one will approach it temporally. I assumed incorrectly by chapter four he is out of the 1800s.

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Still, in my short life time.  I've seen the idea of a Black leader and a strong Black institution vaporize, along with our media. 

yes but the 1900s was inevitable for me. And I am one who praises those high moments in said century but if I am most blunt  in assessing the black community in the usa, then the problems stemming from the 1800s were massive and couldn't be undone with the strategies or movements in the 1900s. 

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I believe part of the problem is how our economy works; we favor the creation of monopolies and a winner takes all mentality.  This hurts the entire country, but in when folks catch a cold Black folks get pneumonia...

  the word we:) well yes, usa fiscal capitalism has always been based on the model of slavery that the usa instituted. Where the enslaved has no legal route out or .... poor person has no legal way out. Where the wealthy are public abusers of the law while publicly act above the law which the usa didn't invent but when you have inescapable slavery which the usa instituted which is uncommon, you create an abrasive situation financially. And yes, when the white wealthy fight in the usa, it is for all the marbles. The Native American community has been in a come if blacks get pneumonia.

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I heard a stat that the New York Times has a online subscriber base larger than all other newspapers combined -- including the Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, LA Times etc.  If the LA Times can't compete with the New York Times online what does that say for a Black-owned independent newspaper online? 

The amsterdam news can be used. The amsterdam news was once wholesale black owned, harlem based, had an online page for years. What it says is that absent money ala the arabs using oil money to manipulate systems it will take great ingenuity which is honestly not common.

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I quess the one thing we can agree on is that the Black community is indeed splintered.

 Yes , the question is when will more black people in the usa realize the first splintering made all the rest inevitable. To me, most black people in the usa know we are splintered but too many black people in the usa think the other splinterings past the first could had been prevented or should had not happened and disagree. I think that is black people in the usa trying to turn a bad gamble, the first leaving of the south into a good strategy. I comprehend why black people did the first exodus out the south but it was a bad move in cheap but clear retrospect. Black leaders pushed for our community to splinter from the brick we were in the southern states, thinking with less density we could thrive in small sections in multiple places but that is a flawed strategy to me. It puts too much weight on smaller black populaces in very hostile and sometimes more hostile places in the usa, ala the black community in nyc.

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Are Black Greek letter organizations, Masons, Boule, etc, a unifying or splintering force in the Black community? 

 

These are in depth questions. I want to say that. Each one is a long essay. 

I will start and say each membership organization has to be looked at individually first. 

Second, the simplest answer is both. All membership organizations that have rules for membership are by default unifiers side splinters. why? by default their membership nature excludes while includes.  This includes nation of islam, the black church as well.  Again it is cheap retrospect but I argue the biggest tent black organization for descended of enslaved was and is the garveyites. Cause being a garveyite doesn't require you be employed or owning a business or been enrolled in a college or taken a pledge to a private club or speak english/spanish, all being a garveyite requires was black descended of enslaved which is the entire DOS populace in the american continent <canada to brazil > and the desire to find a true home, and the ability to work side other black people to get it, preferably in africa but Garvey wasn't that limited. The fiscal poorest black person can be a garveyite.

Third, the two organizations you mention have examples of unifying black people in various places or parts  positively so i am not suggesting a black hate with my prose. 

Fourth , overall the problem is the black person who has no money, never went to college, never owned a business, never had employment is barred from most of said organizations and thus a splintering:) 

[zeke1234]

Regarding Mayor Daley Jr and HUD tearing down the Robert  Taylor Homes and Cabrini Green projects  around 2005/2007

in Chicago, see the  articles below, 

 

https://halbaronproject.web.illinois.edu/items/show/44https://halbaronproject.web.illinois.edu/items/show/44  

https://www.propublica.org/article/chicago-housing-authority-hud-transformation-plan

 

[Troy]

29 minutes ago, richardmurray said:

usa fiscal capitalism has always been based on the model of slavery that the usa instituted. Where the enslaved has no legal route out or .... poor person has no legal way out.

 

That is it in a nutshell. 

 

The nation's wealth is based upon exploitation. Since the goal is maximizing wealth, maximizing exploitation is a natural consequence.

 

Occasionally the government well do something to stop the exploitation, but this is always after a tremendous amount of wealth has been created of the exploiters and damage has been done to the victims.

 

33 minutes ago, richardmurray said:

The amsterdam news was once wholesale black owned

 

I used to subscribe the print edition -- even here in FL.  I'm not sure they are still in print.  Years ago, Google published Black newspaper so low in search it made them undiscoverable.  I actually reached to the NNPA to try to explain what was happening, but they did not do anything about it. One of the effected member newspapers said they would try to get me to speak at an upcoming convention, but that never happened and they last time I check none of the newspaper had recovered online.  Despite the national organization newspapers are splintered.

Black booksellers are splintered as well. Shoot, we don't even have a national organization.   

 

41 minutes ago, richardmurray said:

I comprehend why black people did the first exodus out the south but it was a bad move in cheap but clear retrospect.

 

I dunno man, the South was so damn violent and hostile to Black people...  I know I would have been on the first thing smoking and I like the American South.  Medgar Evers loved the South too. Not everyone can be expected to make the sacrifice did made.  Still Black folks are still marginalized in Jackson MS.  the entire state's growth is stunted as result. 

 

47 minutes ago, richardmurray said:

...overall the problem is the black person who has no money, never went to college, never owned a business, never had employment is barred from most of said organizations and thus a splintering:) 

 

Exactly.  The Black Church, The NOI, the Panthers, Garvey were potentially far more effective at unifying Black people because anyone could join.  Garvey's impact has been marginalized the point that today people can't truly appreciate what a unifying for he was in his day and it wasn't even that long ago! 

 

@zeke1234 Iu did not read the article yet, but Harlem gentrifiers would LOVE for the housing projects from Lenox avenue to the river and from 115th to 112th streets to be torn down, and they could care less where the people who live there end up.  My understanding was that the projects in Chicago followed a similar trajectory to what happened in Harlem, but was able to complete the mission.

[ProfD]

We should be able to surmise how and why Black concentration camps, er, ghettos were created throughout America.

 

@Troy, makes several great points.  But, Jackson, MS is a great example of how Black folks have not progressed in the South. 

 

Mississippi is a prime example of where Black folks would be had they not migrated to less dangerous places (north and west).

 

Atlanta, GA is the home of significant Black wealth.  It could be a microcosm of Black paradise in America.

 

Along the lines of Garvey-ism, if Black folks were to ever consider a mass exodus, taking over a state like Georgia would be a great place to flood and flourish with intellect, industriousness and talent, etc. 

 

Black folks could make their state the best place on the  map and a beacon of light for the world.  We don't even have to ask for it in a reparations package.  Just start moving down there. 

[richardmurray]

@Troy

yes and

 

yes and

 

yes, I want to add Evers was not merely brave but comprehended that most black people have always lived in the south in the usa so the splintering regionally is black people defeating ourselves. Comprehend I am probably killed by whites back in the south in those days. So don't think I don't comprehend why people left. But, you can't have your cake and eat it to... and you made me think of immigration itself. The USA in my opinion has an immigrant culture that is based on the Black DOS experience, meaning what. The north/midwest/west whites did not want black people from the south, that is why all the riots but black people came anyway cause overall it was safer with whites in other regions than the south. But, that culture of immigrating to a place that don't want or like you and trying to outlast the dislike or unwant from those in power I think is dysfunctional , harmful but has become the standard in the usa to all communities. 

 

I prefer to use the word disconnected to garveyism and the modern continental black american community. The modern black community in the usa is individualist, and seeks a positive integration side whites never seen before. This goes against garveyism at its core, which is very communal and is also segregationist.

[richardmurray]

@ProfD   

 

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We should be able to surmise how and why Black concentration camps, er, ghettos were created throughout America.

this very forum proves that black people's interpretation of our history conclusions from our history are so varied, nothing should be assumed.

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But, Jackson, MS is a great example of how Black folks have not progressed in the South. 

I oppose that historical view. Jackson Mississippi shows how individual the black community was even one hundred and fifty years ago.

@Troy said it best

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I know I would have been on the first thing smoking

Alot of black people did the same, and that goes back to my point about individualism in the black community in the usa as something stronger in itself, but also the damage to the black community that jackson misssisippi showcases. 

Jackson shows how the black communities first splintering made two impotent groups: one group is fleeing a region of greater violence for regions of greater non lethal persecution. I argue NY/Oklahoma/Illinois/California overall are more abusive in non lethal ways to black people than the southern states. The southern states kill more, but the northern states it can be argued are more restrictive to black people's growth. the other group stayed knowing the whites will not change but they will have fewer cousins around to make a united front. PRofd, you sinfully in my view, suggest that the black community who fled the south was on the path of growth or betterment. 

 

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Atlanta, GA is the home of significant Black wealth.  It could be a microcosm of Black paradise in America.

prince george county in maryland, martha's vineyard in new england/baldwin hills in los angeles. all regions of the usa have a black one percent community that is totally disconnected to making fiscally poor black people lives better.

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Along the lines of Garvey-ism, if Black folks were to ever consider a mass exodus, taking over a state like Georgia would be a great place to flood and flourish with intellect, industriousness and talent, etc. 

the white community of georgia wouldn't even support the likes of stacy abrams enought to be governor, and you think black people can just flood into georgia? if white people act violent in georgia, what do you think black people should do ?

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Black folks could make their state the best place on the  map and a beacon of light for the world.  We don't even have to ask for it in a reparations package.  Just start moving down there.  

ask for it? white people don't have the means to repair the damage they made. No one does really. I extend that thought to the native american who also is warranted reparations that are impossible to grant. 

[Troy]

I could be wrong, but I think places like ATL and PG County offer a great deal of hope for what a strong Black community can be. 

 

Now I said I'd be on the first thing smoking out of the South, but I'm using my 2023, 61-year-old, Harlem-ghetto-raised sensibility.  I have no idea what I would have done if I was actually born and raised in the South during the height of Jim Crow.  While I can't possibly know, it is interesting to contemplate.

 

I imagine the pull of a cohesive community and family ties in the South is a strong bond, that kept many Black people (most I believe) firmly planted in the South and clearly some were willing to fight to stay.

 

The people who left the South for the North severed, or weakened, those bonds.  Both of my parents left the South for North, the only ones from their respective families who did.  This weakened ties with the family they left behind and these ties were furthered weakened in subsequent generations.  I

 

The splintering is not just along class lines it was within communities and families.

 

For some maintaining a cohesive family is hard enough, trying to do it across a so-called race is virtually impossible -- especially in the dog-eat-dog, winner-take-all culture American culture.

[zeke1234]

To:  Troy

The sad thing about Chicago is that Obama's right hand man Rahm Emanuel was mayor for about 8 years after

Robert Taylor homes were town down about 2005/2007, and he did nothing to fullfill the city's promise to build better safer housing

on the Southside.  Then Lori Lightfoot was mayor for four years and did nothing.    At least 4400 housing units were

demolished, which were gang invested.   I attach two photos from Harlem

taken by me of Schomburg Center for Black history, and the Harlem Hospital, I believe both were on

Malcolm X Blvd, a year before the twin towers fell.   They towed my car went I went to the NY public library to do

Black history research, on 65th street, and cost me $100.00  to get it back.   

 

 

[richardmurray]

@Troy

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I could be wrong, but I think places like ATL and PG County offer a great deal of hope for what a strong Black community can be. 

And add the black community of tulsa beforehand. the usa and the british colonies preceding it always had some positive black spots, always, but the problem is the larger black community. Comprehend in every single major city a section, a black "opulent" region, exists. This post is about communities black people live in, falsely called ghettos which are for white jews <but no problem it has been repeated enough to just go with it>, aside the many splintering historically within the usa or the english colonies preceding it. Minorities in any community make poor storytelling for the larger community. 

 

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Now I said I'd be on the first thing smoking out of the South, but I'm using my 2023, 61-year-old, Harlem-ghetto-raised sensibility.  I have no idea what I would have done if I was actually born and raised in the South during the height of Jim Crow.  While I can't possibly know, it is interesting to contemplate.

of course, no one knows till the critical moment, but the point is the idea will be in your head and was in the head of many black people then and it was acted upon. I referenced you Troy not to suggest I knew what you will do in the 1800s south but to reject @ProfD assertion, that leaving the south was the correct decision. I argue, leaving the south or staying in the south, in cheap hindsight, have been proven to be the incorrect choice. Both black sides went the wrong way. Both were wrong, not one was wrong, both was wrong, and the results are clear. 

 

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For some maintaining a cohesive family is hard enough, trying to do it across a so-called race is virtually impossible -- especially in the dog-eat-dog, winner-take-all culture American culture.

yes but I wish you would had added without power. White power in the usa  comes from white people killing or harming those not white and giving out free opulent opportunities to their own. Giving uneducated, no monied whites, land from the native american, great paying jobs hunting black folk or imprisoning black folk,  made white power.   

[Troy]

I agree. In American you gain power by “eating” others. If that means selling addictive cancer sticks for profit, it is just business; kill all the native inhabitants it’s manifest destiny; enslave Africans for hundreds of years, it’s God’s will.
 

This is how white power this wealthy nation was created.

 

 

[ProfD]

On 8/1/2023 at 5:22 PM, richardmurray said:

I oppose that historical view. Jackson Mississippi shows how individual the black

 

3 hours ago, richardmurray said:

I referenced you Troy not to suggest I knew what you will do in the 1800s south but to reject @ProfD assertion, that leaving the south was the correct decision. 

@richardmurray, back to our regularly scheduled programming of your opposition/rejection of my opinion.

 

I knew our being in agreement wouldn't last too long.

 

It's all good bro. I'll continue to sit in my proverbial easy chair calling balls and strikes as *I* see them.

 

I don’t need an amen corner. I'm here for the dialog with my fellow Black folks.

 

One thing is for sure...we cannot rewrite history or change it. Best we can do is try not to let the most brutal history of AfroAmericans repeat itself. 

[richardmurray]

@ProfDyes:) and no

we only disagree on assessment of the past and the only reason why it matters is cause if the black community anywhere will act unified in the most positive manner when most in a black community comprehend the past somewhat similarly so that most in the group is influenced to act to the future similarly. 

We both know firmly the past can not be changed and to learn from it. 

We also both know that one of the great causes of dysunity is how black people assess our past and i can prove it anywhere. 

Look at south africa, the whole schism between winnie mandela side nelson mandela came because nelson mandela suggested that the movement was about reaching some synergy with whites and winnie mandela correctly said that wasn't true.  Yes, the black people in south africa during and pre apartheid never were trying to kill all the whites so to speak , but the idea was never to become something with the whites which most whites themselves don't even want. At the end of the day, mandela took the desire of two minorities, a minority of whites plus a minority of blacks and put the whole populace of south africa , under that tiny populace's vision, which has proved disastrous. I argue only those two minoriites have benefited from it and sequentially mandela was wrong but to this day, that minority of whites plus minority of blacks stand on a hill and try to make it seem their assessment of the past that mandela spearheaded it correct. 

It goes back to why Frederick Douglass was booed by a black crowd speaking the composite nation speech. Douglas embraced the move from the south. He liked the phenotypical ranged groups mixing.  He was convinced that would lead to something positive. Your words Profd are similar to his. But my point is Douglass and you are wrong. I am not suggesting the black people who stayed in the south were correct, they were wrong too. I am suggesting what few are maybe willing to say, that both choices were wrong. The exodus out of the south  and the determined to say  in the south were both wrong. Yes, cheap retrospect, but both were wrong and I think many black people , adults/parents/guardians/mentors are as I type preaching a terrible lie about some coming together and the potentials of the exodus to black youth, who are living life and making choices based on these lies. 

 

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, richardmurray said:

It goes back to why Frederick Douglass was booed by a black crowd speaking the composite nation speech. Douglas embraced the move from the south. He liked the phenotypical ranged groups mixing.  He was convinced that would lead to something positive. Your words Profd are similar to his. But my point is Douglass and you are wrong.

I'm not championing phenotypical range race mixing.

 

In fact, I would prefer to establish more communities that are predominately Black and self-sufficient. 

 

@richardmurray, I'm curious to know how you would solve the race problem(s) and/or unify Black people. 

[richardmurray]

@ProfD

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how you would solve the race problem(s) and/or unify Black people

Well, I will answer this question as I always do. 

First, how do I define black people. The problem with people when they answer questions like this is they answer without first defining the elements of the question which is why replies to their answer go into argument. However you or others define black people is void in my answer cause i told you how i define black people in my answer.

I define black people in humanity as those of a phenotypical range of skin regardless of their heritage or culture, an element of melanin production which is visible can be a rigid determinant, but the skin of humans nor any other physical factor determines friendship or foeship.

 

Now your question didn't specify geographic scope, which is something I will define for my answer. 

Black people live throughout humanity ,all over the earth. My answer will not go into how to unify the global Black populace or how to solve problems involving the global non black populace.

Black people live in every continent. My answer will not go into how to unify the black populace in any one continent or how to solve problems involving the non white populace in any continent.

Black people live in every country in every continent. My answer will only go into how to unify the black populace in all countries or how to solve the problems involving the non white populace in all countries.

 

I will answer, a very reduced form of your question, based on how I define black people the following question, and it is not applicable to a black populace in another country. How to unify Black people in the USA plus solve the various problems with the non black populace in the USA?

 

 To Unity,

How is unity defined in a group in relationship to a country/government? It is unity of agenda. When the USA was founded the overwhelming majority of nonblacks  in the USA had one agenda to the government of the usa, to live under it and prosper. All groups have infighting but the nonblacks  share one agenda. Before the usa was founded in the british colonial form, Black people of any geographic descent were split into three groups each having an unbridgeable agenda to the british colonies and later to the USA: Destroy/Leave/Live in. 

In the film shared by Troy 

https://aalbc.com/tc/topic/10393-the-film-uptight-1968/

A great example of the problem in the black community in the usa is present. A character tries to convince the others they shouldn't do violence. 

Now many will say that is wise but I oppose that. why? If you are in a group of your phenotypical race that wants an action you do not like the only thing you can do if you truly want to support them is to leave. Not make a scene and chastise or try to preach and tell them wrong, just leave. The IRA wasn't a majority of irish in ireland nor were they particularly liked by a majority in ireland, but they didn't suffer irish not interested in their cause, and they had an agenda in relationship to the british empire, which was to not be in the british empire. 

In modernity, I have been fortunate to know multiple black people in the usa  in each group as well as the modern group, individual. 

But I repeat what I have said in here so many times, over and over. Find your group and go to your goal with them and let other groups be. Don't chastise, don't speak ill.

Wanting to be president doesn't make you a slave. 

Wanting to leave doesn't make you a fool.

Wanting to destroy doesn't make you crazy.

Wanting to do for self doesn't make you a traitor.

The Unity the black populace in the usa need is in embracing its history, its true self, stop trying to mirror whites relationship to the usa, and embrace our own.

If those four groups: Leave/Destroy/Prosper in/Be for self can act without meddling in the other groups affairs, then the non blacks negative influence in the usa  will be lessened over the entire village.

 

 

[ProfD]

6 hours ago, richardmurray said:

 It is unity of agenda. 

 

Black people of any geographic descent were split into three groups each having an unbridgeable agenda to the british colonies and later to the USA: Destroy/Leave/Live in. 

 

Find your group and go to your goal with them and let other groups be.

 

The Unity the black populace in the usa need is in embracing its history, its true self, stop trying to mirror whites relationship to the usa, and embrace our own.

 

If those four groups: Leave/Destroy/Prosper in/Be for self can act without meddling in the other groups affairs...

Nice post. I'm in agreement. 

[Pioneer1]

On 8/2/2023 at 10:55 PM, ProfD said:

 

@richardmurray, back to our regularly scheduled programming of your opposition/rejection of my opinion.

 

 

 

  

 

LOL...man, where do you come up with them damn lines??????