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Troy

Something From Nothing: The Art of Rap

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Something From Nothing: The Art of Rap - Eminem - Clip

Hey Nah'Sun if you are lurking out there Ice-T said this about Eminem; It is amazing the a white boy is the greatest rapper of them all (I've paraphrased Ice-T but that is essentially what he said). I'm not saying I agree, I'm just saying....

He did have Bam in his documentary, but overall I'd give the documentary which I'd give 2.5 stars (out of 5). It was a very biased and shallow treatment of Rap, but I'm sure most youngins and hip-hop fanatics will love it. It was good to see so many different artists provide a sample of their lyrical skills.

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Eminem is a talented rap artist, no denying that but he's nowhere NEAR the "best rapper", lol.

DJ Quik, Chuck D, even Nelly would eat his behind alive.

My problem with him is he claims to be from Detroit when he's not.

He was born and mostly raised in Kansas City and moved to the SUBURBS of Detroit when he was 13. He's a White kid from the suburbs who just came to the city to learn rap from Black kids and profited off of it.

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Pioneer I don't agree with Ice-T either. I enjoy the foul mouthed Biggie Smalls, the funny Schooly D, or the conscious Chuck D more myself.

I was just really very suprised by Ice-T's statement about Eminem, I thought Nah'Sun would get a kick out of proiminet Hip-Hop Artish big upping Eminem ;)

So you are saying all that stuff about 8 Mile growing up in the 'hood is all BS? I would not be surprised, I sure most Rappper front (put on airs) about growing up in the ghetto under rough circumstances.

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Troy

Absolutely

First of all, anyone familiar with the Detroit area knows that 8 Mile is not the "hood", lol.

It's a boulevard that divides the city of Detroit from it's northern suburbs.

The only place White people can be found in large numbers in Detroit is downtown attending sports games. The rest of the city is a Black as Nairobi Kenya, lol.

Again, Eminem is not from the city (and neither is Kid Rock).

The movie was basically a fictional one which he even admits he bases "loosely" on his life designed to give Eminem some "street cred".

And again, I acknowledge that Eminem is a good rapper. He definately has talent, I wouldn't disagree with anyone on that. But just like when it comes to a White man who can dance, or sing, or knows how to dress just a little bit better than what we're used to seeing....

It seems that if a White man shows any type of talent some of our people want to worship him and call him the "best".

They cheer him on like that character Eddie Murphy played in Coming to America,

"Gotdamn dat boy can sang!!!"

I've been seeing this since I was a kid in school.

Whether we were playing basketball or the dozens, if a White boy just showed a little bit of talent you'd hear "oooohs" and "aaaaahs". "Man that White boy can get down!"

If a Black kid were to give the exact same performance.......

At best he'd get an "Yeah, he aaaight" or "So what, my little brother can do that shit."

A lot of our people want to really see White people actually "be better".

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Again I never heard a Black man describe Eminem as the greatest rappper. Once I heard that I figured there was an ulterior motive -- I just could not think of a plausible one, so I'll take Ice-T at his word....

In the hip-hop would I'm not convinced they would have a white rapper anymore due that a Black rapper. Vanilla Ice was widely rejected while the Beastie Boys were embraced -- I think largely due to talent or lack thereof.

In recent years talent does not seem to correlate very much with commercial success and there seems to be a bias toward young, Black males who are "street".. Even a rapper like Kanye West (highlighted) in the film is weak compared to Caz, or Mellie Rap or KRS one....

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When M&M came out I asked young Black men what they thought. They reply was he raps about real $#!+. I respect that but he doesn't flow for me. I prefer third Bass.

Ice T the rap authority, no Bambaata is the rap Authority.

I guess fir me there are the founders, pioneers and flow.I guess for me you go in the Hall of fame if you had a record before 81.

Certain rappers are game changers

Tribe called quest(Native Tongues), Public Enemy, De La Soul.

Rakim and MC Lyte love that hard hitting flow plus they near rhyme but it works, violin with island, and Lyte did rhinoceros and preposterous.

A friend in Sydney who is into rap, saw the documentary and asked what I thought of TuPac.I'd rate him a better Actor than Rapper. I tend to go against popular opinion.

Is Biggie the greatest rapper. I like his intelligence and humor.

For me the greatest Rapper had to be in the foundation.

Although I am biased towards records.

Caz rapped and Dj, plus he gave the lyrics to Big Bank Hank and didn't collect a check.

An aside Kool Moe Dee can out rap LL Cool J but LL had better music.

Funky 4+1 Rapping and Rockin the House. 15 minutes of story telling

. Harmonizing and shout outs at the end.

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Yeah not that keen on Ice t or Tone Loc's flow. The first time I heard. NWA was at a Brand. Nubian Performance, the musuc paralyzed me, and the raid had me saying WTF.

Anti Pop Consortium Nrw Jack Exterminator made me believe there was a future for rap, but hip hop is in life support.

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I saw another better documentary last night I'll get the name when I get home. The production was much lower in quality but they focused more on the Zulu Nation who obviously know a lot more about the origins of Rap a component of Hip Hop.

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I haven't heard any Black men say that Eminem raps about the realz, lol.

That usually comes from other White men.

He raps about hating his mother-n-law, killing people in bizzare ways, and taking a shit while getting blow jobs......things I haven't heard too many Black men rap about, lol.

Every now and then he get's political, but most of his work is just crazy and loony representing a working class young White culture.

I think Biggie was a good rapper just like Tupac, but I think the media hyped both of them up a little too much and made them the "poster children" for the golden age of rap.

Both of them share SOME responsibility for much of the thuggish lifestyle that has destroyed the families and even lives of so many Black people in America today. Tupac's mother being in the Panthers doesn't make HIM positive or pro-black.

They...along with many other rappers including my favorite Ice Cube....helped to make crime and immorality seem acceptable to too many Black youth.

Public Enemy was my favorite rap group, but I've always been somewhat political.

In my opinion, Ice Cube is the best rapper so far.

Gotta give it to Cube...lol.

But I also must say that him along with the rest of NWA was part of the problem to, hey.....the truth is the truth. At some point all of the rappers who contributed to the crime and immorality (and obviously there were many others besides them) of the Black community MUST be held to some sort of account for thier words and deeds.

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Pioneer in comparison to rapping about sexual prowess and drug dealing, then M&M is dealer.

I am just saying what a teenager told me in the barber shop.

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I saw about an hour, Ice-T and M&M have got more flow than a remember from a decade+ ago.

Ice didn't say he was the best.

He said one of the greatest.

I could see why he would say that, I am almost convinced.

Kool Moe Dee, Mellie Mel and Caz, yeah the greatest three.

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After hearing M&M rap, talk about rap. And what other rappers said about him, he deserves a place not a founder, but a game changer. So I'd put him in the hall of fame as a game changer. Before I would put Jay Z even though I think Jay Z is a better rapper. I think M&M loves rap more, Jay Z it's a business, and he's a businessman.

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Oh I though Ice-T said "the" greatest. In any case I don't think Ice-T heaped more praise on any other rapper. Do you Del?

The other video is The Legends of Hip Hop. I watched it on a DVD from the library, but the entire video is on youtube (embedded below)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_cA_-SGhXY

I have not gone to a rap concert since 1990, when I saw Pubic Enemy perform in southern Florida -- I think Miami. At any rate PE is one of my favorite groups, but I was disappointed in the concert. There stage performance -- even with the SW1's was pretty stock -- you know the pacing back and forth on the stage and the audio was not great...

I have zero interest in paying to see a Rap artist group perform. Jay-Z performed in Brooklyn recently the thought passed my mind to see him in the new arena, but travel, cost, time -- it was not worth it to me... I guess if I was 18 it would be a different story.

Pioneer while we share an enjoyment of PE you always lose me when you make statements like this:

"Both of them
[biggie and Tupac]
share SOME responsibility for much of the thuggish lifestyle that has destroyed the families and even lives of so many Black people in America today."

See, to me, this seems like a outlandish exaggeration. So I'll ask, why do you believe this to be true?

I believe their combined contribution to the state of Black American families is so negligible that it can be ignored. If anything, the contribution of people like Tupac, one could argue, has been net positive. But destroying lives and Black families -- come on man you can't really mean that.

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"Something from nothing" is an apt headline for this thread. To me, Rap would certainly be an example of an existing entity waiting to be born via inspiration. It's like it just spontaneously combusted, channeled into existence and energized by the artistry of spoken word artists spurred to start spitting out staccatto rhymes that were eventually accompanied by beats.

I've always been fascinated with the evolution of Rap, and how easily certain people could master its vocal challenges and create its clever lyrics. Now, a generation later, it's no longer a special skill; any young person can rap. It's like how all young Hawaiian girls can just naturally do the hula. I think a throw-back to African griots is also a part of the rap equation.

Havin said all that, I would be remiss if I didn't diss all you men snubbing others who are candidates for the rap hall of fame; namely the women trailblazers like Salt 'N Pepa who infused the genre with playful seductiveness, never compromising the technique and dynamics associated with the execution of Rap. Kudos to them!

Today the black community is saturated with Rap music and like every other black thing that starts out with great potential, it has degenerated into negativity, making thugs millionaires. and baby mamas a female culture. All human life may have sprung from Africa, but for some unfathomable reason, the first became last... Who gves a damn about the Moors or TuPac? I don't. Othello, the Moor of Shakespeare fame, married a white woman and was manipulated by Iago, his white friend. TuPac was a foul-mouthed punk. Who needs these role models?? :angry:

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Yeah Salt N Pepper, MC Lyte and right up there. In fact they and other were interviewed in the first video. The fact of the matter is men dominate Rap..

Now Cynique why would you call Tupac a "foul mouth punk"? I did not know Tupac personally but what I do know is that the young man we see presented, most often in the public, is not who he was, in reality. I based this upon what other who knew hum personally have written.

Indeed Nikki Giovanni went as far as to replicate the tattoo "Thug Life" on her arm that tupac wore across his belly.

fbw_ar0318_thuglife_03-18-07_DK4RQKM.jpgtupac-shakur-thug-style-568x747.png

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I didn't know TuPac either, Troy. But my bad impression of him is apparently the one he took great pride in projecting: that of a violent misogynistic thug. Yeah, we know he had his defenders and he was good to his mommy but we are all swell people in the eyes of our pals. Outsiders, however, aren't so convinced that any one other than a "foul-mouth punk" would be gunned down by rival gangsters while riding in a car with that other pillar of the community, Shug Knight. It's also hard to dismiss that Pac was walking around full of bullets from a previous attempt on his life by someone else out to get him. And I would be surprised if Nikki Giovanni didn't sing TuPac's praises; He's her type of person. She's made a career off of championing "misunderstood" rebels like him, denizens of the hood, an environment they are quick to glorify. Too bad Nikki wasn't as enamouredt of the son she is estranged from.(Probably because she wouldn't ever reveal who his father was.)

Jada Pinket is who I specifically recall saying that although she mourned TuPac, at the time of his death they had stopped speaking because he had become so outrageous in his behavior. And what does everybody's most unfavorite rapper Puffy think of his fellow hip-hopper? Probably not much more than Janet Jackson who requested that TuPac take an AIDS test before playing opposite of her in the movie they starred in. A real vote of confidence.

I'm not saying that TuPac was any worse than other rappers, but I just get tired of death turning flawed people into sacro-sanct martyrs. :huh: Yet even before TuPac's death, for some reason, I never liked the little squirt who appeared to have had a Napoleonic complex.

It occurred to me that mention might have been made about women rappers in the first video posted which I confess to not watching. I just can't suffer through long videos unless they're about a subject that I'm intensely interested in. ( I think In my old age that I"ve developed a short attention span.)

I just jumped into this thread to bug you rap groupies who really should be more discriminating when it comes to who you hold in high esteem. :P

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Cynique I did mention MC Lyte, Salt is on it but I'd give the nod to MC Lyte. Plus Sha Rock is the first female Rapper. She was the + 1 more of the Funky Four. Plus she did a rap about astrology signs.

To me Tupac is a bit like Richard Pryor. A gifted artist who had an unconventional Mother. And had a complicated relationship with women.

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Troy

"See, to me, this seems like a outlandish exaggeration. So I'll ask, why do you believe this to be true?

I believe their combined contribution to the state of Black American families is so negligible that it can be ignored. If anything, the contribution of people like Tupac, one could argue, has been net positive. But destroying lives and Black families -- come on man you can't really mean that."

Now Troy,

You may not know me that well but you've known and interacted with me long enough to know that I'm a man who says what I believe and believes (often times quite strongly) what I say.

Cynique pretty much sumed up (if you can believe that.....lol) much of the problem I have with Tupac and his so-called legacy. The man was beloved by many in the Black community and has passed away so I'm not gonna jump on him too much but........

Let me preface this first by saying Tupac was not only an excellent rapper, he was clearly intelligent (yet often foolish) and had what is called "charisma".

People tend to underestimate that word "charisma" but it's a real gift.

That blessed gift to charm and influence people into loving you unconditionally and following your lead in just about whatever you do.

I knew he had it the first time I saw him in his "When my Homies Call" video.

And like Biggie, the powers that be knew he had this and they immediately set out to manipulate Tupac's charm with the youth so that it may be used negatively.

Like so many young Black men who grew up without a father (and especially a decent one) he got "took to the cleaners".....so to speak.

When he first started rapping it was about pointing out the social ills that existed in the Black community. Then the money and fame came and he was too young and inexperienced to know what the hell he was getting into and a lot of people manipulated him and took advantage of him and his weak morality. Slowly he started rapping more and more about drug and alcohol use leaving the positivity behind. Again, not having a father, and growing up in an unstable household he didn't have the discipline to know what to do with the fame and fortune he got and ended up going in and out of jail for stupid shit.

Once Suge Knight got him out and signed him on to Death Row and that's when the "thugging" really took off with him on television with AK's, wearing bullet proof vests, beefing with Bad Boy, hyping the West Coast against the East, ect.....

Rather than checking himself and examining where he went wrong, he dug himself deeper and deeper getting more depressed over his situation and you heard it in his music.

Now I didn't know Tupac personally, maybe you did.

My problem isn't what was going on in his personal life but with that violent and immoral psychological destructiveness he was selling to the Black youth of America.

It's because of Tupac that tatoos have become so mainstream in the Black community today.

It's because of Tupac that the word "thug" is so popular in the Black community today.

Willie Lynche could have learned a lesson from Tupac on dividing Black people the way him and Ice Cube's "Westside Connection) set West Coast rappers against the East Coast.

Again, he wasn't the only one guilty of this madness, there were others like Biggie (who rapped about liking them young fresh and green with no hair in between) and most of the members of NWA who routinely talked about getting drunk, high, and slaughtering other Black people in a violent way.

I admit, listend to the music when I was younger and enjoyed it.

But even then I knew something was wrong and hypocritical about what they were doing and I would examine and question a lot of the lyrics while my boyz were hung up on the beats and flow.

The beats and music was just a way to hypnotize your brain so the violent self-destructive lyrics can enter into it and possibly on to your subconcious.

Mark my words carefully.....

At some point in the near future some of these same rappers and other entertainers who are guilty of CONCIOUSLY (they knew what they were doing, they just didn't give a damn) promoting the criminal and immoral lifestyle that has lead to so much bloodshed and confusion in the Black community WILL BE CALLED TO ACCOUNT over what they've done before a national if not world wide audience.

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I do recall that both East and West Coast Rappers did a track about Black on Black crime. Even Eazy E and Ice-T contributed.

I think Ice-T was pretty fair. I think he was stoked to talk to all the rappers. I think M&M may have more minutes, but you saw Krs-one twice and Caz three times.

I would also say that Ice-T didn't ask Caz any questions. At least not in the first hour or if he did I don't remember.

I think Ice-T is also a fan and it felt like he was really a fan of rap. A white guy that loves rap, and can flow. Yeah that shows heart. I forgot who said what makes an MC dope, intelligence, heart, poetry, ability to take you to another world or paint pictures.

Rappers are the Shakespeare of today.

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Self-Destruction and We're All in the Same Gang

Lol, those were the jams.

I also remember they had a "no cussing" movement for a minute, lol.

I think Heavy D and Naughty By Nature were pushing it.

But you know, even when many of these rappers are trying to be "positive" it just doesn't come off genuine or "right". They seem insincere as if they're just waiting for something to set them off so they can beef with somebody.

But more so than the violence that was promoted so much 20 years ago, it's the promoting of an uncultivated brutish type lifestyle that I'm seeing in much of the hiphopworld today that I'm really taking issue with.

No more dressing nice, now you wear baggy pants and long dirty t-shirts.

It's ok to be sloppy with a big beer belly at 17 years old.

Tatooing your body and face like some devil worshipping freak out of a slasher film.

Take Lil'Wayne for example.

Now I've heard this dude on several television shows being interviewed.

He's not stupid, he's quite intelligent and articulate when answering questions.

But you listen to his music and you can barely understand a damn thing he's saying.

He has tatooed his body and face to the point that even HE probably doesn't even know what parts of himself are dirty and what parts are clean.

And when he and many of these other rappers of today perform, notice how they rock around from side to side and bounce and grunt out sounds like apes and monkeys!

No more style, don't know how to dress, can't dance anymore because they're too out of shape.....just garbage.

Even a lot of very young people are rebelling against this garbage and thanx to the internet they're digging up music from Tribe Called Quest, Public Enemy, Dj Quik and even going back to the Commodores and the O'Jays to find good music because of the drought that exists today.

My little 14 year old cousin told me she was listening to some Guy the other day while she was exercising, lol.

I said "what Guy" were you listening too?

She said no....GUY...the group.

I had to ask her what did she know about Guy???

She said she came across them on youtube and couldn't get enough of Aaron Hall's voice.

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I think it was Nelly. He said don't complain about the images. That is what people want. Millie Jackson said the same thing. When you go to people's house they have classical in the living room and Millie Jackson in the bedroom.

Perhaps people don't know who they are.

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I was by the following rappers and not in a good way. Snoop, Ice Cube, and Chillo X. Infinite Technique was nice.

How do you think had a strong rap in the doco.

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Cynique, OK I understand your feelings for Tupac. I did not know about Nikki's son. Maybe she does not know who the father is :o

Pioneer, in the elaborated context I fundamentally agree with you. However I still do not believe Rap is the CAUSE of our problem -- more a REFLECTION of them.

Your point "The beats and music was just a way to hypnotize your brain so the violent self-destructive lyrics can enter into it and possibly on to your subconscious". Is worthy of research. I believe there is something to this.

I also believe a large majority of people to not listen to the words, the beat is everything. Ice-T and Salt had a conversation about how their own spouses don't listen to the lyrics.

If the words were really important spoken word artists would be more popular.

Now if the beat is indeed everything why then can't rap artists make more music with politically conscious, uplifting or otherwise positive lyrics? The reason is the misogyny and violence sells better -- perhaps it appeals to us on a very basic, primitive level.

I remember being in my 20's blasting NWA's ganster rap in my car, driving without a shirt, drinking beer -- and loving it. Smart, educated, but behaving like child.

I should have been somewhere reading a book. Today I seem MANY grown men still doing the same thing. I've had to leave my house to ask people to turn their music down. They blasting obscenity laden rap music from their parked cars...

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Music creates a feeling that trumps thinking.

Before a battle there would be music, before seduction there is music. Watch a movie without music it is not the same.

If I mention the song Raindrops keep falling on my head. You can easily name the movie and probably the scene. I am not certain about the artist or the album.

In church you have music, in the coliseum, in the store, the elevator, the funeral, tv, movies life.

We have music because everyone has a (heart)beat

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I remember listening to PE and quitting my job. I remember deciding to leave a relationship after listening to Terrence Trent Darby's Holding on to You.

Blues, Soul, Jazz, Classical, Rock and Roll.

They are more than genres, they are: Feelings, Spurit, Intercourse, Lifestyle. It may not cover all of life, but it has the best bits.

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Yep, music is the universal language and has all kinds of healing proprerties and emotional power and sexual stimulation and galvanizing energy. Back in the day, Blacks frequently joked about one or another of their kids being an "Isley Brothers' baby". The sensual, suggestive music of this group provided great background for "between the sheets" activity. :rolleyes:

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Cynique - Amen

Rap is the lover, there were rappers, who loved the lover, who adored the lover, who found salvation with the lover, who treated the lover like arm candy, the angry rapper, the poet writing for the lover.

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Del

LOL @ listening to Public Enemy and quitting your job!!!!!

Was it "Fight the Power"?

But yeah I hear what you're saying, music sets the mood.

It gets the emotions going.

Infact, the opposing factions in Liberia said that their soldiers listend to Tupac and Biggie to hype themselves up to do battle with eachother.

But if you're a young Black man living in the ghetto with no other people around except those who look like YOU, and you're constantly pumping warrior music into your brain...then who are you going to war against?

Admin

"Pioneer, in the elaborated context I fundamentally agree with you. However I still do not believe Rap is the CAUSE of our problem -- more a REFLECTION of them."

Gangsta Rap in and of itself is both a SYMPTOM of an existing problem and a CAUSE of more problems.

Much like a fever is a symptom of an infection but if it lasts can lead to other complications outside of the original infection.

Yes the rappers were rapping about the crime and violence and other dysfunctional behavior that was going on in their neighbhoods already and had been going on for decades. No, THAT wasn't their fault.

But the way they rapped about it......glorifying it, bragging about it, and telling it from a 1st person narrative clearly implicating that THEY were guilty of some of it....led to another problem of young impressionable minds wanting to emulate their gangsta swag.

Most young men tend to be more attracted to strength and confidence than intellect.

So an entire generation of Black youth many from decent middle and upperclass families began abandoning those values and adopting the values of a rutheless ghetto gangster, selling dope when they didn't have to and going in and out of jail needlessly trying to gain a repuation.

So while these rappers didn't cause the original problems the Black community faced, they certainly are guilty of glorifying and expanding it.

I'd also challenge misogyny and violence selling better. Not necessarily disagree, but just "challenge" it a little.

Perhaps among a certain demographic it may.....

But what about rap geared toward women, would misogyny sell better with them?

What about rap geared towards college educated young Black men, would violence sell better with them?

People loved Public Enemy, KRS One, Kam, and Arrested Development.

Not everybody.

You still had those with a mouth full of gold "toofez" who couldn't get down with all that pro-blackness, but you had a larger pool of Black youth who loved it and supported it.

Elijah Muhammad used an analogy of giving people a clean glass of water next to the dirty glass THEN letting them make thier choice.

If they are only given dirty water and they're dying of thirst.....ofcourse they'll drink it.

"Your point "The beats and music was just a way to hypnotize your brain so the violent self-destructive lyrics can enter into it and possibly on to your subconscious". Is worthy of research. I believe there is something to this. "

Yes, psychologists and psychiatrists have known this for over 100 years.

And ancient Africans and Native Americans also knew this which is why rhythmic drumming and different beats at different intervals were so essential to divination and religious ceramonies.

Once the emotions are tapped....the mind opens....and information can be downloaded in.

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I don't know there have always been a dichotomy in rap. The message had social commentary,and you had Raheim saying he was royalty and women loved him. There has always been choice in rap. The best rappers told stories. Sometimes it was educational some times it was boasting but is always toasting.

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I think if you are faced with adversity you can play the victim or or flip it. They way some Black folk appropriate Nigger or some women use Bitch. It's. A way of take a derogatory term and making it less sacred and taking its power away. Granted though it is a bit if a gamble.

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Dr Dre and Puffy Daddy probably are two of the most successful producers. They helped make rap so mainstream accessible not certain that this was as good for rap as ot was for them.

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