Jump to content


harry brown

Recommended Posts

Having taught, lived, and having been raised in poverty, maybe I have a more personal relationship to poverty and I can speak to it more than your research Pioneer. Are White kids smarter than Black kids? It depends on what the conversation is.

I know for a fact that a Black kid is ten times as smart as a White kid when it comes to popular culture. So I think your discussion on intelligence due to vaccines may have grounds and a foundation, but intelligence overall is a matter of what is of importance for a kid's parents and the kid. I was in education for over 20 years at every level and from experience the majority of kids do well in school. The problem is the squeaky wheel gets the oil so people focus on the kids who are lower performing. The problem with that focus is that they never address the real issue of parenting which takes us all right back to 


Kids aren't "smart" about things that don't matter in the world. A kid who happens to live in the ghetto has the best memory you can find because I've seen these same kids who can't spell rattle off all of the cheat codes for Playstation and rap word for word every song that comes on the radio. How is that kid not capable of learning? They are capable, it's just that if your parents aren't capable of supplying you with the importance of education and showing you why it's important, then it won't be important. It ain't about water or vaccines or any of that, it's about parents being capable of providing for their kids the support so they can grow. This is affected by income and jobs. Which has to deal with the ever popular discussion of the failure of social policies. Now, if you talked about kids in the hood having higher cases of asthma, due to chemicals then I get it and that's evident, but even in those asthmatic kids I've seen some of the smartest kids in the country. You know why? Because their parents/parent was as involved as they could be.

Now when you talk about the people born from the 60s being damaged in some way, I get it. If you were going to say that intergration and the civil rights movement actually created a lot of the issues, I would even agree with some of that argument. The bottom line for me in this discussion is that the kids born after the 60s are the kids of the Korean and Vietnam Era as well as welfare policies that removed the male influence from neighborhoods and families. This was reinforced by Reaganomics and the crack era which led to privatized prisons. I honestly lay the problem of Black America at the feet of Black men and their lack of involvement in the Black community at the parental and social level. This is why even in well to due Black households you see many of the same problems in lower income families. When Black men are in the home, they are often first time fathers who have never seen parenting. More important they are also workaholics who aren't really interacting with their kids. You have a generation of people who don't have parents who know how to parent and they can't go to anyone to discuss how to parent.

I just can't blame vaccines and lead in the water when I've been raised in poverty, lived in it, taught in it, worked in it and I've seen kids who rise out because of dedicated teachers and influences and I've seen the same kids right next door taken out because they never found that one positive influence that remained consistent in their lives.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


Well if Black people weren't healthier 75 years ago then I stand corrected.
Obviously I wasn't around at that time so I'm going by what MOST of the older Black people who come from the South have told me concerning Black people living longer.
I don't go by stats promoted by Western science because I believe much of it is misleading and many of the publishers have ulterior motives. I'd rather go by the first hand accounts of those who've actually lived long enough to witness history THEMSELVES and make a comparison.

I also BELIEVE (don't know for sure)...again based on what I've been told by those who were around to witness...that a lot of the diseases you mentioned were almost unheard of among Black people 80 and 100 years ago UNTIL they started coming into more frequent contact with Whites.

I'm not yet 50 and I know I've seen more Black folks walking around talking to themselves and exhibiting mental problems today than I did 30 years ago. So no doctor or scientist can present information to me claiming that Black mental health today is better than it was 30 years ago and expect me to believe it.


I don't know if I'd agree that unvaccinated Black people would be dying from typhoid and other diseases because we lived and thrived in Africa for thousands if not millions of years without needing those vaccines.
How did we manage all those years before White doctors came along?

You make a good point about African immigrants being the cream of the crop.
I've heard this before also.
Having not yet been to Africa, perhaps I should wait until I go and see for myself how the majority behave before trying to judge and compare behaviors between us and them.

I used to think that Black people lived better out on the West Coast than they did in the Midwest based on what I'd seen on television and in the movies....unitl I actually MOVED out there and saw the high rates of incarceration and destitution experienced by so many Black people in California as compared to more established Black communities back East and down South.

Sometimes you don't really KNOW until you've physically gone to a place to see and weigh the facts yourself.



I like that you promote discipline and high achievement leaving few excuses.
I also agree with you that one of the biggest reasons for Black children under achieving in school is their lack of desire to achieve. I constantly bring up the fact that any child who can remember the lyrics to an entire rap album certainly has the potential to excell in school.
So for many it's not the ABILITY....it's the DESIRE.

However the crux of much of your argument seems to be that we should focus on the EXCEPTIONS instead of the majority.

Your position is instead of making excuses, we should look at the "exceptional ones" who happen to excell against all odds. We should take a lesson from them and encourage more of our people to be like them as a solution to rise above their circumstances.

But remember there are exceptions to almost every rule in this world.
Hell, even during slavery you had some Black people who prospered!
Yet I don't know of any Black person who'd think it's a good idea to go back to slavery because some did well.

No matter how dire circumstances get in a society, you'll always have SOME (even if it's less than .005%) who are smart enough, strong enough, and determined enough to rise above their circumstances and turn lemons into lemonade.

But if I took you to most urban areas around this nation, for every 1 child who you can point to as being smart enough or disciplined enough or hard working enough or "lucky" enough to make it out of the ghetto or get through a crumby school and go to college...I can point to 5 who may succumb to their environment and either end up homeless, in prison, on drugs, or worse......

We don't want a society where only a fraction of people are able to achieve success while the majority fail.

Just like an otherwise bright student would still fail to learn in a dilapidated school plagued with filthy bathrooms and violent classrooms....
The even a virtuous and hard working people would still find it next to impossible to succeed in a society that was actually DESIGNED to trap them and prevent all but a small gifted and "lucky" few to break through and succeed.


Justice flows from the top down.

We must work on making the system and society itself more just before focusing on the individual and demanding more responsibility from him.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Pioneer1Well, if you want to continue believing that black people were all hale and hearty 75 years ago, based on anecdotal evidence from some old black southerners you talked to, then go right ahead. If you want to think, for some reason, that the life expectancy statistics of black people have been skewed, that's your prerogative.  You've made up your mind that this is the case, so I see no point in arguing with you about an opinion you have formed based on a miniscule sampling of the black population from one area of the country.

Africans may not have been infected with typhoid and diphtheria but they were dying from cholera,malaria, small pox, leprosy and a host of other tropical diseases. 

If there is a vaccine to cure generalizations based on limited observation, you need to take it. :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unlike you I think there are more better performing kids than there are poor performing kids. This is an old chart: http://www.governing.com/gov-data/education-data/state-high-school-graduation-rates-by-race-ethnicity.html

The only state on this chart where Black kids are not graduation above a 50% rate is Nevada. While Black students perform at a much lower rate, and 60% is a terrible percentage, I think the focus on poor performing students actually contributes to the failure of borderline students which is why the graduation rate or failure rate is so high in our community.

I've seen first hand students who are borderline turn into failing students because the focus is on high performing kids and the worst performing kids. There isn't a balance and a lot of good kids become bad kids because they want the same attention. If yo simply place the emphasis on the borderline group something interesting could happen, but that will never be the case when everything we research and address has to deal with the students who are failing only.

It's a tough problem to deal with and I wish you luck in doing so. I gave 20 years of my life to education and my job now is to save my own kids.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A lot has to do with motivation.  Kids with potential have to be motivated to want to be the best that they can be.  This is where the parents, or a special teacher come in.  Sometimes the reward system works. But that inner spark has to be ignited and this is difficult  because, as Chris suggests, it calls for underachievers to make a mature decision about whom they want their peers to be: the cool slackers or the honor roll dorks. 

Raising well-adjusted children is one of the hardest jobs in the world. And it also has to do with luck.  Some kids are just natural self-starters   

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


I wasn't around to witness what Africans were allegedly dying of centuries ago and I'm not too quick to trust Western historians and what they write about pre-colonial Africa, however I think we both can agree that SINCE colonialism and the introduction of Western medicine (vaccines included)  Africans have been dying of AIDS, ebola, and other "mystery" illnesses by the MILLIONS.
So what good were they?

BTW, it is my understanding the Smallpox and Typhoid didn't exist in Africa until Europeans came and brought them.  So perhaps the best thing they should have done was stay away instead of bringing vaccines to prevent a problem that didn't exist in the first place.

We didn't need a vaccine for malaria either.
The condition known as Sickle cell anemia among so many AfroAmericans today  is actually natures own way of preventing malaria among West Africans.

Sometimes you have to generalize based on limited information in order to save your own life.  You may not have the time nor luxury to sit around waiting on all the facts to come in before making a decision as to what to believe.

Suppose you were sitting on the couch by the living room window and you heard some arguing between people quickly followed by 3 or 4 loud bangs outside.
Would you sit there jotting down a list of what those noises could be?
Would you go outside and stand on the porch to get a "better observation"?

If you saw a strange man you didn't know coming at you with a crazy look in his eye and licking his lips, would you stand around observing him waiting for more information to comin before you made a decision on what to do?

I'm sure you didn't make it on this planet 80 something years if you hadn't made a few quick generalizations based on a limited observation of what you saw.

Again, I'd much rather trust the information I've gotten from the few people I know who've actually LIVED and EXPERIENCED the past, rather than a bunch of skewed facts typed up by people who have a vested interest in selling Western medicine to the public.....despite the fact that by their own admission the medication ALONE that's being prescribed is killing more people today than auto accidents, suicides, and homicides combined.




I don't know how good Black kids are doing academically, I'm sure you're in a better position than me to know that.  But I can look at the high unemployment rate, high incarceration rate, and all around lack of common sense that is so pervasive among Black youth in America and all the stats about their academic performance becomes irrelevant.

If you want to save your children.....and others...you and other Black educators should sit down and come up with a curriculum designed specifically to educated Black youth.   Especially Black boys.  Because the current educational system is failing them big time.

Cynique mentioned motivation....
Like most boys, Black boys are motivated by the promise of money, women, and success in this world as they get older.  And if they look around in society and don't see a way to achieve these things nor do they see how the educational programs being pushed on them will help them in achieving these things then they will RIGHTLY begin to question the value of a so-called "good" education. 
The purpose of school should be to train children how to be successful adults.  The problem is the CURRENT idea of success (corporate job, wife, house) doesn't give with what most Black boys' idea of success (money, plenty of sex, protection from enemies, nice clothes, good music, freedom from incarceration or police harassment,  ect..) is.

Black children and especially Black boys need a program tailored for THEM and THEIR wants/needs.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Pioneer1Africa is still ravaged with diseases today because vaccines haven't been discovered to ward off all the parasites that infect them.  And if we want to go by limited anecdotal evidence, I can tell you that when i was a youngster, every family I knew had lost a child to sickness or to death at childbirth and that included my own.  It was not uncommon for fathers or mothers of my friends to die during middle age.  I was told of a cousin in the south who contracted diphtheria and nearly died.  As I said, TB took a great toll on black lives, and this also included relatively young people, a few of whom I knew.  Influenza epidemics killed millions of Americans, great numbers of whom were young, before vaccines were introduced.  And people actually died from appendicitis because it was not unusual for infection or blood poisoning to set in during surgery back then. And, of course, cancer and heart disease have always killed more blacks than whites because of the inferior medical treatment blacks receive.  

To conclude that black people or white people either, for that matter, were healthier 77 years ago and lived longer just doesn't wash.  Antibiotics, serums and vaccines have improved the life expectancy of everyone.  But, once again, you can believe whatever you choose to.  


If black youths are motivated to acquire "the bling", then they really are stupid if they think they will obtain it by committing petty crimes and drive-by shootings.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Pioneer1, while researching my families history we lost a two of my mothers siblings were lost to whooping cough.  They would be around Cyniques age if they were alive today.  Sickle Cell is a lethal affliction, far less desireable than the chance of contracting malaria.  Carrying the trait of Sickle, I understand offers some protection... but to your point you might be correct contact with Europeans and there communicable diseases has indeed wrecked havoc across the globe including the Americas.

Still live expectancy is higher today due in part to the eradication of diseases; a benefit which folks who refuse to get vaccinations put at risk.

@CDBurns, man I looked at the stats and I find them depressing


Basically only 12 states can manage to graduate 3/4 of their Black students; while virtually all the other states graduate there white students at rates exceeding this. 

Just looking at this data you can't help but be struck by the differences between Black performance and the performance of white students and Asian students. Particularly in places like DC.  

Now if you believe there are at no inherent natural disadvantage in intellectual ability and potential, what else can explain the differences?  I'm sure in DC it is social-economic, as it is in New York City.  People with money send their kids to private school in these cities, and public schools that are segregated by both race and class.  I'll let you guess where the best teachers and resources go.

Unfortunately for too many bright Black children, their life opportunities are stunted, if not altogether destroyed by the systems we have in place. 

545 murders in Chicago.




Link to comment
Share on other sites

I repeat, there is not a curriculum or any amount of money that will fix the schools. The problem begins and ends in the home. That's it. Troy those are the stats I was referring to. More people are graduating than failing. Is it comparable? No. More are graduating though and I promise you if you set foot in any underperforming school you will have half of the kids that are borderline being overlooked in favor of throwing more ideas and money at those failing. 

Once again, the problem begins and ends at home. The unfortunate thing is parents are not willing to sacrifice and devote everything to their kids. They hate their kids. They don't want to be around their kids. They leave teachers to raise their kids and then lay the blame on the system. I don't care how poor you are or uneducated, if you support your kid, that can be the difference in increasing graduation rates. Because parenting is the only thing that is going to work.

Troy you keep saying the system. Everyone who writes on this board know its broken. It isn't going to get better or change, but if it does, hooray. What can be done right now, right this instance to improve schools? Parenting. If the parent can't come up and check on the students and be involved, they can make damn sure they are involved in some shape or fashion. Just that one thing will make it better I promise you.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites


Now listen......
We're not going to keep going back and forth over this.
I just told you about how Black people in Africa are dying by the millions from just AIDS alone, not to mention Ebola and other "unheard of" diseases that didn't appear until Europeans came.

So if you want to ignore THAT and focus on the flu or diarrhea as the leading killer of Black folks until modern medicine came along...you go right ahead.



If black youths are motivated to acquire "the bling", then they really are stupid if they think they will obtain it by committing petty crimes and drive-by shootings

I think Black young men are motivated by NATURE.
Young men by NATURE desire women, control over their own lives, respect from other men as well as the larger community, and a share of the contemporary wealth of what ever era they are living in. This cuts across all racial and national lines.

Young men also tend to be aggressive by nature, especially when it comes to trying to attain the objects of their desire...and this too cuts across all racial and national lines.

The problem is this society is an artificially contructed one where not only is nature and natural inclinations in young men suppressed.....they're often PUNISHED as some how "wrong" or criminal.
So where in the past it was considered noble and honorable for a man to have sex with several women, be good at fighting, and amass large wealth by any means he could think of......now it's often considered criminal and immoral and the larger society condemns him for it.

So perhaps what you see as petty crimes and violence is actually young men trying to pursue normal natural desires in an ABnormal UNnatural artificial society.






Now if you believe there are at no inherent natural disadvantage in intellectual ability and potential, what else can explain the differences?

Neurological poisioning from chronic heavy metal exposure.

Cleanse the lead and mercury out of the systems of every child and you will see the test scores rise and the violent crime plummet.





You speak of the solution being better parenting, as if the parents know any more than their children do.....lol

The parents are a product of the SAME dysfunctional incompetent educational system that their children have inherited so how can people who don't know any better themselves teach others?

You DO have a valid point about many parents hating their children and not wanting them.
A lot of children were a "mistake" on the part of their parents.
I don't think any human being is a mistake as I believe we all were intended to be here, but I think as far as planning goes.....yes....many if these children were "mistakes" and not really wanted.
Children can tell intuitively when an adult doesn't really care about them even if it's a parent who gives them a lot of gifts....they just "know".

Infact, a lot of parents are actually USING thier children to collect checks from the government through disability and special needs claims....that's the only value they see in them.

So do you really expect parents who are cold and callus to pony up and do the right thing and supervise their children when THEY THEMSELVES need supervision?

I don't.

And do you really WANT Black parents to be more hands on and take more responsibility in teaching Black children how to be better students in an educational system that teaches them how worthless they are and trains them how to be mindless drones for corporate America?

Because that's what this educational system teaches them.

I bet you learned more PRACTICAL KNOWLEDGE that you could actually use in real life during the few years you were in the military than all the years you spent as a student K through college.

We need our OWN academic systems that teach Black children how to do something for themselves.
A system that offers benefit to themselves and their progeny instead of teaching them how to be well educated slaves to help build another man's world while theirs deteriorates.



  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


@Pioneer1 My focus is on why black Americans live longer and are healthier now than they were 77 years ago and vaccines and better medicine are 2 of the reasons why they are no longer dying from all of those diseases I named.   You continue to sidestep that claim you made citing old southern black folks as your proof that blacks were healthier and lived longer back then. If you hadn't brought Africans and Europeans into the conversation, I wouldn't have responded to your remarks about them.  Now we can move on. :lol:   

And also, all black youth aren't out there robbing and shooting and being aggressive because that's their nature.  There are just as many who possess self control and pursue the good life by legally doing what it takes to acquire money and status. And it's arguable as to whether modern society looks down on men who are players and tough and financially astute.  

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pioneer that was one gigantic generalization of a post. I was shaped and formed by my early education and of course I learned a ton in the military. I became basically an electrician in 1 year with an apprenticeship. That's one of the craziest comparisons ever. The school system can teach any kid. It's becoming old hat to look at all school systems and call them flawed when everyone else is moving through the schools successfully and parental engagement is the primary reason why for every race except ours. Even with poor parental engagement, there are only a few states where kids are failing at a higher rate than passing.

Once again, I'm telling you that the primary reason for failure of Black students is parents. Not lead in the water, not social issues and systemic problems. Are they factors? YES I'm not denying that at all. I just know from experience that Title 1 funding is always for the kids that are failing. Wait a minute... I just realize that systemic is greater because the school system focuses on the bright students, and the failing students. It ignores the borderline student which leads to more of them becoming failing students. Sounds kinda like how The rich get richer and the poor get a handout and no one helps the middle class which is almost non-existent in the US. 

I'm giving you this discussion and conceding. The school system mirrors society.  Unfortunately neither will be repaired. This takes me back to my original point, Parenting. If people took more time and care in raising their kids, the society as a whole would improve, but as you said, parents don't know how to parent or even try, so we are just doomed. I depressed now, lol.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chris Pioneer has a point, sure parenting is important but if the parent themselves are under-educated and knows little about parenting, how are they supposed to help the next generation?  

Children spend most of their day in school, often eating two meals there with some programs going as late as 5 p.m., much of the rearing of these kids naturally falls into the hand of schools, this is why schools are so important. 

Now we can argue about which is more important, schools or parent, but at the end of the day both are important and for many Black children both are failing.  We can't legislate good parenting, but we can fix the schools.

We both agree in many in states, like Nevada, the graduation rates are atrocious.  Now we also know not all high school diplomas are equivalent.  Do you think that all of the students getting high school diplomas, in places like Nevada are prepared for college or meaningful employment?  If not which students do you think are less prepared?

Man there are kids coming out of college who are unemployable; certainly not for a job that requires a college education.  

How do you think the all those Black kids without a HS diploma, and a relatively useless HS diploma will fare?  What do we do about them?  These folks will have kids and while we can point the blame on on the likely poor outcomes of those kids on the parents, that will not improve a thing.

Cynique, I dunno but Pioneer may be winning me over with his argument.  When I was a kid many kids suffered brain damage or reduced mental function due to lead based paint that was common during the time.

We also had to contend with food desserts; fresh produce and seafood was not widely available.  We ate a lot of canned vegetables which is loaded with salt. 

Then we were targets but corporation at an early age with cigarettes, shitty processed food, and alcohol.  I drank countless Colt 45's (thanks Billy Dee), smoked, and ate a ton of junk food.  Eventually I left the environment, but it took even longer for the mentality to leave me.

Today when I see people smoke I feel bad for them, I eat fresh produce every day and I don't eat much processed food or drink as much as I used to.  But many of the kids I grew up still do, some already have heart disease or have even died; others look much older than their age.

We also know that heart disease did not exist 100 years ago.  We also know who is dying at higher rate from heart disease today, right?  

I'll tell you; Black folks are dying at higher rates for all of the reason I mentioned above.  My father died when he was 44 years old.  Do you think my family was better off with or without him?  What about all the other families of Black men, in poor communities, dying prematurely?  Think of all the added stress on these people.

We have no compassion for these folks and we want to blame them, poor parenting, lazy, uneducated, for all their problems.  

This is the fundamental problem I have with Republicans.  But the problem I have the the Dems is that they just pay lips service to these issues while things only get worse for us.

More Black people will die in Chicago, Harlem, and the entire US from heart disease than all other causes combined.

More than 22K people died of coronary heart or stroke in Chicago in 2006 to 2010. During the same period 2K people died from firearms--an order of magnitude less!  All of these deaths are preventable.  But where is all the attention going?  Which should it go?  Where will it go...



  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You guys are blending discussions and overlapping arguments. If we are talking about schools, your bleak outlook Troy and Pioneer is a strong argument. Your solutions however are hollow. You know like I know that the government is only going to throw money at the solution. Teachers go through student teaching and certification. They have earned degrees and they are knowledgeable enough to teach the material given to them. What else can you fix? Overcrowding, Poor lunches, more computers, more after school programs, the list goes on and on, but this is the thing. The students won't do it if the parents don't reinforce it. So any solution you throw at schools will fall flat and you will once again go back to the drawing board and suggest more solutions that will fall flat.

I know parents aren't there. I know schools should and can do more, but the reality is the schools can be perfect, but if parents are not involved you get exactly what you have. That's just the fact.


The above study shows how a grouping of schools performed better. There is only one reference to parents, but I tend to think they shaped it to intentionally leave out parents. 

"We also heard stories of the supportive and respectful relationships that school staff had with parents and families. A grandmother at one school told of how the school faculty had helped her deal with a tragedy. The same school provided transportation so families could attend evening and weekend school activities."

In regard to students leaving schools with fewer skills. I think those that are leaving school, although saddled with debt have a better grasp on the new economy and they realize that the jobs are leaving so they are attempting to create their own jobs. They aren't concerned with complying to the jobs that are available because there isn't any guarantee of keeping the jobs and they are not paying very well unless the students are in STEM fields. I guess for the sake of conversation, we can only talk about the bad things that are going on and not the good. But if you two Pioneer and Troy spent an equal amount of time discussing the solutions available and the accomplishments then wouldn't those dialogues serve to shape the discussion in a different way?

For every person who never leaves the hood, there is the Nomadness movement. http://www.nomadnesstv.com/#intro-1

For every black person dying of heart disease, there is the Black Vegan Movement and sites like this beginning to pop up: http://www.nyrajuskincare.com/eaforbeblsk.html

For every student failing, there is a student who is succeeding. Maybe if you take the time to analyze that with the same fervor as the crappy parts and discuss that it will help to change the narrative.

I am in no way Naive to everything happening, it's just that so many discussions revolve around the failures of Black folks that it's hard to see any success.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@TroyI am not denying that poor diet and polluted environment have a negative effect on people, and I would also add smart phones and the Internet and video games to the mix!  My argument is and continues to simply be that the life expectancy of blacks(and every other race) is longer now than it was 77 years ago due to medical advancement! If you want to agree with Pioneer and what studies have revealed about something, agree that outside factors affect people differently, undoubtedly depending on their physical constitution. One man's meat is another one's poison, literally.  I am a salt-oholic, and have never watched my diet, eating whatever I want including red meat and fried foods.  I smoked and was a moderate drinker for years, but gave up these habits because cigarettes were too expensive and since my partyin' days were over, I no longer felt a need to get a buzz on. I am sure the infra-structure of the town where I formerly lived was outdated, and there may have been lead in the water.  At 83, I am in reasonably good physical and mental health. What's killin' me has more to do with the political atmosphere that frustrates and depresses me. 

As for what it takes to put a child on the right path when it comes to successfully making it through school, - like the effect of diet and pollution on people, no one rule applies to all.  What works for one child doesn't necessary work for another because of  personality differences.  I have also learned the magical effect of praise.  - given when a child does well, it nourishes a desire to gain more.  Acknowledgement that every child is not receptive to the regimentation of a class room situation is also crucial, and many kids thrive when they are allowed to learn at their own pace ala the Montessori method. I also think that reading is the most important skill a child can master, because once a child can read, the battle is half won, A healthy curiosity is the next best learning tool. Wanting to know and being capable of independently seeking out and comprehending available information is an education unto itself. And i don't care what anybody says, I think nowadays Wikipedia is a valuable quick fix. I would, however, agree with Chris that parents who are good role models are vital to the educational process and homeschooling is certainly a viable option. 

Children are not a cookie cutter population.  They are all different.  Assigning them to learning institutions is a way of managing them, and an attempt to train them. But public schools tend to fall short when it comes to stimulating the intellect, Eventually  the intrinsic make-up of an individual is what will prevail and, in time, the cream will rise to the top, IMO. 




  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


I've already conceded several times that I wasn't around back then to "know" who lived longer than who. But neither the anecdotes from older Black folks from the South who've told me how much longer Black folks lived and how healthier they were NOR the "stats" and other forms of propaganda put out by Western medicine tooting their own horn about how much progress they've made PROVES it one way or the other as far as I'm concerned.
My standards of proof are based on experience and observation so I guess I'll KNOW the truth as time goes by if God allows me to live long enough and keeps me mentally sharp enough to adequately compare time periods.



Well atleast Troy is entertaining the possibility that the problem could be more bio-chemical than behavioral or parental.
Either that or he feels sorry for me in this 3 against one argument...lol.

I just have one question for all of you.....what if I'm right?

Suppose, just suppose the United Nations or some outside group came in and examined Black children from coast to coast and concluded that for the most part they contained much higher concentrations of lead and mercury in their systems than White children and this has been a major cause in hyper aggressiveness as well poor academic performance.

Then what?

After knowing without a doubt that they're suffering from a real physical/chemical problem that is affecting their thinking and behavior and most likely the behavior of their parents before them, what should the next step be?

To continue to blame the parents and tell them to get off their ass and do their job?

To blame rap music?

Tell young people to get married and stay married for life, especially if they have children?

Tell the children to "try harder" in school to make up for their mental deficiency?

Or should we have a nation wide demand that the infrastructure be repaird and every child (and adult for that matter) be treated to rid their bodies of these toxins?

IF I were right and we knew beyond doubt that most Black children suffered from various levels of heavy metal toxicity affecting thier intellectual and emotional development, which option would be the most generally effective in solving the problem of not only violence but broken homes and poor academic performance in light of such a major finding?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Pioneer1You continue to claim that we don't agree with your point about lead poisoning as being a problem.  Nobody has denied that it is undoubtedly a contributing factor to the many woes of inner city blacks.  And you also continue to ignore those young people who achieve and transcend their environment and make it out of the ghetto, apparently having no debilitating effects from lead poisoning and, in all probability, have been inspired and encouraged  by an adult role model, whether a parent or other family member or someone who just took an interest in them. You also relegate all black street niggas to being brutish and stupid when many of them are quite shrewd and cool, eschewing the loud aggressive behavior you attribute to those with brain damage. These cold-blooded dudes may have grown up drinking sugary, red Kool Aid stirred into lead-infested water, but they are not lacking in swag,  cunning, or stamina. I'm sure you would agree that there a lot of smart black brothers in prison. 

And, as I've opined previously, you are at risk of making lead poisoning a scapegoat for everything that's wrong with young blacks, - falling into the same category as those who blame racism or the media for everything and, in the process, provide a ready made excuse for failure.

 And you talk about white people manipulating the figures on black life expectancy but you are in denial about how black people did and still do, capitalize on these figures, angrily citing them as the result of a racist system that denied blacks adequate health care. Let's deal with reality instead of rhetoric.

Furthermore, you can be right as hell about the detrimental effects of lead poisoning, but when did being "right" melt the hearts of the white power structure? Unless it can benefit from eradicating the conditions that handicap black folks, it will not extend itself to uplift poor blacks or the poor of any other race, but will simply give lip-service while applying bandages to massive wounds. 

Me, I think only a miracle will enable the black race in America to acquire the widespread influence, authority, and wealth necessary for it to control its destiny; especially since its members are not of one mind, - or of one class. But who knows?  Perhaps I am being too pessimistic, and if black people continue do what they do best, maybe they can pray themselves into a promise land here on Earth.  Are you listening, Jesus?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


You're starting to do what CD has been doing which is focusing on the well performing exceptions to say that things aren't really "that bad".

Which is like a person with stage 2 breast cancer focusing on how nice their teeth are or how good their digestive system is while ignoring a serious and GROWING problem that should be addressed before it's too late.

I too believe in miracles and have had them in my life, and as long as I live on THIS planet I also believe in sitting down and trying to solve my problems as well.
The Divine do their part and human beings must also do their part.

Again, what if I'm right?

Then what?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, Pioneer, I'm simply attempting to do what any objective person would do, which is to seek the truth and consider all options instead of falling in love with the one possibility that is compatible with my personal belief.  CDBurns has suggested that too much attention is being paid to the best and the worst while neglecting the underachievers in the middle whose potential for rising is ignored.  Troy has continued to blame the racist system, and I maintain that what they contend, along with your theory about lead poisoning, and mine about the deteriorating family unit, are all contributing to the problem.  And, obviously, in the big picture, things are not as bad for some as they are for others. You, on the other hand, choose to ignore the possibility that lead poisoning is not the root of all black problems, brushing aside any evidence supporting this claim.   

I already gave my opinion to the question about the possibility of your being right.  I said depending on black people to do what white people won't do, will just result in the problem remaining in limbo.  And also since the effects of lead poisoning can't be reversed what is your remedy for this?  

Finally, what if you are wrong?  Then what?  You will have to find something else to become fixated on.   

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There isn't a 3 against 1, everyone has said that lead is a part of it. I even said I understand where you are coming from, but my primary focus is on the fact that there are more kids passing in school and doing well than there are failing. THIS IS FACT and Troy posted the evidence. While the evidence shows the disparity of success there are more passing than failing. Which led me to my next point that because everyone fixates on those failing, the kids in the middle are left behind. The top kids do great, the bottom kids get attention and the kids who are borderline are left to make a decision to be successful. Without parenting those kids choose to fit in and they can either be better or worse, but the bottom line is if the attention was given not to the squeaky wheel, but to the bulk of kids through diversified teaching then education would get better. 

The problem is everyone focuses on the worst of issues overlooking controllable issues that can be fixed. 

 Lead is in the pipes, how can that be resolved quickly when the infrastructure of America is crumbling and can't be passed through congress?

Now you say I'm focusing on the exception... but what you are focusing on is actually the exception. Please take a look at this chart: http://www.edweek.org/media/graduation-rate-pdf-download-education-week-diplomas-count.pdf

Note the graduation rate for Blacks is 71% it is the worst in the country by race, but that is still 7 out of 10. You are FIXATED on 3 out of 10, and while that is needed because someone has to find the solution there, do you see how that actually can be considered counterproductive? Find out what the 7 are doing and you may be able to fix the 3. The American Indian is in worse shape than Blacks. What is also interesting is that Minnesota, Nevada and Oregon are lower performing than the states that you seem to be referencing when discussing lead, Michigan and New York or places with majority Black inner cities. What's even more interesting is that the states where Blacks are doing better are majority Southern States. Where there was and has been more oppression and mistreatment historically. You want to know why I think Southern states are doing so well? HBCU's and the reinforcement of education because of Black colleges.

I am not knocking your discussion of lead, but I don't see anything happening to fix it. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


If it's unfair for me to accuse you of not considering the possibility of lead poisoning as being a factor, then it's equally unfair for you to paint my argument as if I'm saying it's the ONLY factor.

If you go back in this thread I said at the very beginning:

Now I'm not saying these are the ONLY causes of the violence in the ghetto but I believe they are the MAIN causes. At the very lease there can no acceptable solution to the violence in America that doesn't include removing the old lead pipes from not only the water systems but every household's plumbing as well as all of the old paint from buildings similar to what was done with asbestos"

I also said:

"Another problem is Western civilization itself.
This may seem a little far fetched, but after studying history I believe Western civilization has run it's course and people are tired of it.
The family values and social ethics that have governed Western societies are no longer holding weight with most people as they begin to pull away from Christianity and other organized religions. So peopel are coming up with their own morals and ethical codes and other people are just abandoning ALL forms of morality together and doing whatever they want because there is nobody or real system "in charge" to establish absolute rights or wrongs "

Ofcourse there are other problems contributing to the violence and dysfunction in the Black community besides lead in the water, but I believe much of it is peripheral stemming FROM the psychiatric effects of lead and mercury poisoning. 
Again, not all....but much if not most.

So I guess it's a matter of which of these problems we chose to lay weight and focus on.


And also since the effects of lead poisoning can't be reversed what is your remedy for this?

Number one, I believe they CAN be reversed with proper treatment both holistic and conventional. But the first step as stated in the above quote from my earlier post is to remove the source of the poisioning by replacing lead contaminated pipes and halting vaccinations with serum that contains heavy metals.
Then we can look at other forms of treatment to remove the lead from the body and heal the brain and nervous system.

I believe there's a solution to EVERY problem and a cure for EVERY disease.
We may not know it at this point in time...but it exists.



Finally, what if you are wrong? Then what? You will have to find something else to become fixated on.

If I'm wrong, then I'll fix-ATE on fix-ING the actual problem and discard my previous theory...lol.


There isn't a 3 against 1, everyone has said that lead is a part of it. I even said I understand where you are coming from, but my primary focus is on the fact that there are more kids passing in school and doing well than there are failing. THIS IS FACT and Troy posted the evidence. While the evidence shows the disparity of success there are more passing than failing.

Well if we all agree on the same problems, then as I've said to Cynique I suppose it's more of a matter of where we're deciding to place our weight on and which problems deserves the most immediate attention.

Black leaders both at the top and at the grass roots level have been holding discussion after discussion and rally after rally trying to fix broken families, get Black children to read more, get Black youth to stay out of gangs, and reduce the violence rate in the Black community for 30 or 40 years now.
Has it worked for the most part?

I believe if we focus on the lead and other toxins in the environment, most of those other problems like deliquency, broken families, violence, ect....will fade. Not necessarily "away" but they will become relatively mild compared to what they are today.

As far as a higher graduation than failing rate meaning more "success" than failure.
When they start passing out DECENT PAYING JOBS with those diplomas upon graduation, then I may consider it a sign of success.
Until then, can we really say that the diploma a young Black male gets today is even worth the paper it's printed on?

Success for most young men is wealth, women, and peace of mind.
....and none of those are guranteed by a diploma or even a typical 4 year degree today.

The only thing a highschool diploma does is pave the way for college and a lifetime of student loan debt.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No there has never been a real movement or push to reestablish the Black family. There has only been lip service and the work that has been done has only been for 40 years. I know some people who are 50 and can't get their stuff together, but you are saying that it hasn't been successful? That's a stretch. The reason I said that the students are graduating is because that was the discussion topic. A discussion on the usefulness of a high school education is a completely different discussion that can have elements of this one, but should be taken on independently.

Now I asked this before, but I am asking it again. In Memphis, gentrification has been taking place for almost 30 years. The murder and crime has increased although the projects are gone and the areas where the people were moved to were formerly upscale White owned areas. If Lead poisoning is such a major threat, why is it this new generation of 15-20 year olds who were not raised in the projects are killing and committing crime at a higher rate than when the projects were around? Lead would have to be genetically passed on and affecting the kids which is a possibility.

This is a link to a map of Memphis crime: https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/tn/memphis/crime/

Take a look at it and when you see where the majority of crime is taking place in Memphis, I will show you how close those areas are too safer parts of town. There is only one solid block on this map that could fall into your discussion on lead and that is in the left of the center of the map. When you begin to move away to the outskirts you have pockets of crime and these areas used to be all White. 30-40 years ago so the likelihood of lead may be there because of age, but not like it would in that one section. I hope this is clear because it's hard to look at the map and type, but I guess what I'm saying is the crime in Memphis is central to a particular area where the income is the lowest so you could say that lead was an issue... but the interesting thing is those same areas in Memphis also have homes and not projects. Some of those homes are nice, some are not so nice, but the talent and ability in those areas is amazing. A lot of the kids come out of there swinging. This is why I have an issue with lead because I've lived in two distinctly different cities, in the poorest parts of those cities and while lead and toxins could have contributed to the issues, ultimately it was poverty and decision making that created the issues.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Create New...