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What do you think of the ongoing battle between Pionner1 and Kalexander2

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Cynique & K2

If you think it's "weak" or "soft" for a man to get highly offended when his mother is insulted I'm going to have to SERIOUSLY question how many Black men you two have actually been around.

Even WHITE MEN know not to talk about a Black man's mama unless you're suicidal or just looking for a fight....how did YALL end up missing the memo????



It doesn't matter if someone is trying to push your buttons or not, it's about principle.

If you're walking down the street with your daughter and someone walks up, points at her, grins, and says she's gonna be a "little ho" when she grows up-

What are you gonna do; get mad and fight?
Or assume they're just trying to "push your buttons" and walk away grinning thinking you won while you're daughter looks at you confused as to why you didn't react?



 

 

 



Troy

I'm not sure what he's been asking you to do with regard to ME, but I'm not asking that he be banned....because then he wouldn't be able to apologize, lol.

Standing before the community holding his head down and admitting how silly and childish "we" were is not an apology NOR do I even believe it's sincere in his case.

It reminds me of Jimmy Swaggart going before his churchcrying with snot running down his nose talking about he "sinned against them"...lol.

If you're truly sorry and ashamed of your behavior then APOLOGIZE and that will be more evidence of sincerity.

Anything else is just patronizing people.




As far as Sara.....

It's difficult to say because everyone has different moral standards.

I operated a website with a message board briefly years ago I didn't have to ban anyone but it was only up for about 7 or 8 months.
My rules were simple and clear and as long as no one violated them people could say whatever no matter how outrageous or obnoxious.

In the case with that site, the problem weren't the posters but with the MODERATORS....lol.

That's when I really learned a lesson that not only can't everyone handle power but MOST PEOPLE can't handle power responsibily.

Between working full time and trying to get an organization going I didn't have time to just sit and monitor the site myself. I barely had time to even post upcoming events and answer questions which was what I started the site and discussion board for in the first place. So I called myself choosing moderators based on intelligence and maturity but as soon as they got into arguments with people some of them would delete embarassing respons


They did more participating than moderating and one had a habit of deleting people's reponses if they got the best of him in an argument....LOL.

Also, although my instructions of what to delete or warn people about were CRYSTAL CLEAR....they kept on making judgements based on their OWN beliefs of what was right or wrong based on their religious concepts or what their parents taught them on how people should treat eachother.

After failing to properly delegate power on the board, I decided to just shut it down and use the sight to promote upcoming events.

I learned many lessons about people and power though.

But whether Sara actually went to far or not....I think there should be CLEAR RULES in the Black community over what should and shouldn't be tolerated and it should be part of our culture so as to leave little room for misunderstanding.

As I said above, I thought it was almost common sense among most people.....especially in the generations over 30....to not talk about a Black man's mother unless you were looking for a fight.

When did that change?

Where can you go and talk about a Black man's mother in real life and expect to just walk away in peace?

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17 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Cynique & K2

If you think it's "weak" or "soft" for a man to get highly offended when his mother is insulted.

I'm going to have to SERIOUSLY question how many Black men you two have actually been around.

never said anything about you being "weak" or "soft". I concluded that since this exchange between you and Kalexander took place on-line, there was nothing you could do about his ridiculous comments and this included extracting an apology from him, but that you could nullify his remarks by simply blowing them off and moving on.  That seems to be what he did in regard to what he considered insults that you hurled at him.

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There was a study that showed less educated people get more upset by perceived slight than more educated people do.  They are measurably more upset.  They want to fight if you talk about their mother or accidentally step on their sneakers.  These people will literally murder you if you cut them off in traffic.

 

I can't remember where I read this, but there was also something else related about the "honor culture."  It is the same reasoning that got all the poor uneducated white people to shoot each other to death during the Civil War.  

 

On the other side of the spectrum is the educated politically correct crowd where the default female voice for Alexa and Siri is considered sexist because assistants -- even virtual ones --  should not be female by default.... 

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Cynique
 

never said anything about you being "weak" or "soft". I concluded that since this exchange between you and Kalexander took place on-line, there was nothing you could do about his ridiculous comments and this included extracting an apology from him, but that you could nullify his remarks by simply blowing them off and moving on.  That seems to be what he did in regard to what he considered insults that you hurled at him

No you haven't.
However both you and Troy seem to believe that my REACTION to K2's insults are just as bad as K2's insults and by not "ignoring" him that somehow made me less mature or dignified.
In my opinion it should be the other way around......

If I see someone insult a Black man's mother...a good Black woman....I would CHEER for that man to be stood up to and taken down.
I wouldn't tell the brother to just "ignore" him.
I'd encourage the brother to fight the good fight and condemn the offender for acting out of order.

But that's just me....



 

 

 


Troy

There was a study that showed less educated people get more upset by perceived slight than more educated people do. They are measurably more upset. They want to fight if you talk about their mother or accidentally step on their sneakers. These people will literally murder you if you cut them off in traffic.

I can't remember where I read this, but there was also something else related about the "honor culture." It is the same reasoning that got all the poor uneducated white people to shoot each other to death during the Civil War.


Yeaaaa???

Well guess what, I read somewhere that highly educated people....especially those who grew up in New York....chose to further their education for the sole reason that they weren't good at fighting and figured it would be a good way to avoid conflict...LOL.

Now I forgot where I read that at....LOL.....but it was probably in a book that was sitting next to the same book YOU were reading.

What you read sounds like an observation of Alexis Tocqueville during his journey through out America.


I'm not sure about the less educated part in specific, but less educated people tend to be poorer and their a link between poverty and crime.

People with money tend to fight with lawyers and punish their enemies legally; whereas most people who are poor can't afford lawyers and don't have the time or resources to drag things out for years in court so they tend to settle personal issues PERSONALLY....often time with violence or direct confrontation.

But another issue is stress and that causes a lot of people to "go off" despite their educational status.
And all classes of people outside of the very rich seem to be under more stress today than they were 30 years ago.

 


 




Del

There can be no unity without respect.


Absolutely!

Which is one of the reasons I think we as a community need to NAIL DOWN EXACTLY what constitutes as disrespect and what is unacceptable.

As I've said many times before, AfroAmericans don't really have a set CULTURE and because of this our community is in a state of confusion where everyone has different values and opinions of what is good and bad or acceptable and unacceptable.

We need atleast a basic understanding and agreement as a people of atleast basic civility.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

especially those who grew up in New York....chose to further their education for the sole reason that they weren't good at fighting and figured it would be a good way to avoid conflict...LOL.

 

Exactly, @Pioneer1 your statement is the mentality that I'm talking about.  I get the impression that you believe being willing to beat someone up is a virtue, or that violence is an appropriate way to solve problems.  Of course an education is a good way to learn to deal with and avoid conflict.

 

Also MOST people are not good at fighting. As a kid I could beat most people I fought simply because I was more athletic than most; but if someone was a trained boxer, a  martial artist, bigger and stronger, or had back up from a gang or family --  I would probably get my as kicked.   Today anyone can be a bad-ass because guns are easily obtained. 

 

Less educated people are more likely to solve their conflicts violence; this is the opposite of a virtue.

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Meeting. Of. The. Minds,Different. Opinions.  If. Our. Black. Leaders. Got. Together,Talking,We. Might. Have. Solutions,For. Black. Community. Problems.  Did. Not, Mean. To,Post. Twice. Yesterday.  Posting. On   this. Website. Was. Being. Blocked..  .I. found. It. Amazing. That. A. Gangster,Was. Getting.  Female. Guards. Pregnant..  Drinking. Champagne,In,The. Cell.  Baltimore. Jail. Sounded. Like. A. Pimp. House...Black. guerilla   Gang. Family......

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Educated leaders don't go to war.  They send lesser educated people to be their cannon fodder.  

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8 hours ago, Troy said:

Less educated people are more likely to solve their conflicts violence; this is the opposite of a virtue.

Yes Cynique I am aware that now leaders don't go to war. My statement is in response to @Troystatement. 

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Troy

I was "clowning" on you a little bit with that statement.....lol.

I'll agree with what you said about less educated people using violence more only because less educated people tend to be poorer, and again...there's a direct link between crime and poverty.
But I don't think education is the key factor in making people less violent.
As Del pointed out already, most of the wars in history were started by well educated Presidents, Generals, Kings, and other societal leaders.

As far as me personally........
I'm not sure where you got THAT impression.....lol.
If I believed in using violence to solve every personal conflict I wouldn't have made it past 25 years of age in this society.
Perhas you took what I said to Cynique about a man "taking down" those who talked about his mother and "fighting the good fight" as in PHYSICAL take downs and fighting -that's not what I meant.
Certainly if a man were to insult my Mother to my face, they would more than likely get a PHYSICAL reaction from me; but in general and especially online I'm talking about fighting with a war of words and ideaology.

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On 7/8/2018 at 3:53 AM, Pioneer1 said:

if a man were to insult my Mother to my face, they would more than likely get a PHYSICAL reaction from me

 

Again @Pioneer1, this is the point that I'm making.  @Delano if someone stepped to you and said, "your mother was a whore" would you beat them up or shoot them?  

 

@Cynique, you stole my thunder; your response was the one I was going to give Del. 

 

The only time I would get physical with someone is if they got physical with me or there was the imminent threat that they would get physical and I have not other alternative. Getting into physical altercations is a low class activity Pioneer and as you suggested class and education go hand in hand. There is nothing anyone could say to e that would prompt me into a physical altercation.  One of the first things you learn in school is "Sticks and stones..." 

 

Another thing you learn -- something that has been demonstrated here abundantly -- is that words don't have meaning -- people do.  If mere words can get you into a fight, you are easily manipulated.  

 

 

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I use a decision tree @Troy. Is it true. No reaction. I can't argue with the truth. I f my mother was a puta. 

If it is false. The person is uniformed. 

So either way they are trying to hurt me with words. 

So I would ask them the following question. What's the difference between three dicks and a joke. Your mother can't take a joke. 

@Troy

 

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On 7/5/2018 at 8:08 PM, Cynique said:

Unfortunately, i think more flunked the test than passed it. We were in the vanguard of ball-bustin' black sistas.  (Something I'm not particularly proud of.)  

 

I like it sister, Cynique, it keeps us guys on our toes, me anyway.  Submissive females are boring!!!

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2 hours ago, Troy said:

@Delano seriously, let's get off of mothers man -- I just got of yours last night.

I'd be your dad but the guy in  front had exact change. 

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Maybe you should tell the milkman the postman, and the fire department. So they can stop paying  child support. 

Have you e be ry wondered why you got so much better service than every other kid on the neighbourhood. 

 

It takes a village to raise a child. 

Your mama took the whole town. Sometimes she even double stuffed. 

I guess no one told her not to talk with a full mouth. Mmfmfm

1 hour ago, Troy said:

Ohhhh!  At least, I know who my dad is!

 

 

better tell ya mammy

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On 7/9/2018 at 3:24 AM, Troy said:

 

@Cynique, you stole my thunder; your response was the one I was going to give Del.

Why it missed an obvious point. We fight when our words are ineffective. 

 

That fight could be fists, court, guns, lawyers, bombs propaganda and other things. 

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We fight when we can't use our words.  Barbarians resort to violence to settle differences.

 

Del,  don't try to confuse the issue by conflating a court battle court with violence.  We were talking about violence and the propensity of less educated people to use it for minor slights, like talking about one's mother or getting cut off in traffic.

 

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You are mistaking your confusion with elucidation  

You and I differ you are content with using words. I prefer to use words effectively. 

Troy is educated and can throw down.

 

You beat  cats because you were fit. 

 

As a kid we sparred and played the dozens.

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Again I was talking about the relative level of education of individuals who would be willing to engage in fisticuffs because someone stepped on their sneakers.

 

I was not talking about wars between nations.  You are attacking a strawman again.  Why don't you just admit that people who want to fight someone simply because they talked about their mother is probably less educated than some who would not.

 

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I don't agree with the statement. it is elitist. You're either implying that education reduces aggression. Or there is an inherent difference between educated people and uneducated. 

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@Delano and @TroyWHEW! I was wondering if I should enter this room... I was thinking maybe I should find some 'Yo Daddy jokes' or quotes to debate this point, but the

'Yo Mama quotes' outnumber all in this categorey and I am not blessed with delivering funny jokes! Anywhoo, I like to think of myself as a serious person, 

but, I can tell you, I too can get caught up into 'wanting to fight someone just because they say something offensive... even if I know I shouldn't take it personally...

there I go, getting all worked up... and regretting it later. 

 

I realize yall may not be all that into Bible history, but this is the best example that I can give for this conversation... David had gotten so worked up when his request was rejected by another man, who he'd ask for help that he sent word to the guy that 'he was going to kill everything that pissed on the wall' and the guy's wife made an intercepting because she knew that her husband was selfish. So she sent a party to meet David and his party and offered them the help. The next day, that guy had a heart attack and died and soon after DAvid, met that woman, ABIGAIL, and he married her. So I think this is a good example of how anyone can get 'bent out of sort and want to fight, no matter if they have substance or not. I hope I would never want to fight someone who steps on my shoes or says 'Yo Mama jokes to me'.... But Hey, I am not sure that I am immune though....

 

I hope not.

quote-i-have-so-much-respect-for-what-s-

 

May he RIP!

 

 

 

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Humor is an art.  The trick is for it to contain a smidgen of the truth, otherwise it falls flat. "Yo Momma" jokes are remarkably creative but hardly credible, all of which makes them easier to dismiss as street wise buffoonery not to be take seriously.  Some bypass this code of the jungle when they feel  the line gets crossed. And asses get kicked.   Such is life.   😧

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Troy and Delano

If you two want to prove a point about how easily insults of your loved ones can be brushed off, instead of telling "mama jokes"...why don't you talk about eachothers CHILDREN!

And let's see how far THAT would get.


Two friends who have known eachother for years joking about eachother's mothers can't be compared to two strangers arguing with eachother and one talks about the other's mother in a fit of rage.

The spirit and intent is ENTIRELY different.


 

 

 

 


Troy

You keep shifting the weight and moving the focus every time your point is disproven......


You first said that uneducated or less educated people are more willing to engage in violence with the slightest provocation.

When Delano correctly (actually he beat me to the punch) pointed out how some of the most educated people in the world in the form of presidents and other global leaders have been the main ones starting wars.....you then say that only uneducated people fight and get violent over mere words.

And when it is again pointed out that most wars beging when words are no longer effective in solving the conflict.

Now you're saying it's all about the INDIVIDUAL and not warring nations willing to fight over words.


If you think the only type of Black man who will fight you over insulting his mother is an UNEDUCATED one.....then try a little experiment:

Go back to the univesity you teach at and find atleast 10  Black male professors and/or staff members with Master's degrees or higher and insult their mothers and see how many of them get physical with you and how many of them brush it off.....lol.

That would be a REAL scientific experiment.

Social science.

Infact, why don't you RECORD IT on your celly and post the reactions on here....lol.

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3 hours ago, Cynique said:

Humor is an art.  The trick is for it to contain a smidgen of the truth, otherwise it falls flat. "Yo Momma" jokes are remarkably creative but hardly credible, all of which makes them easier to dismiss as street wise buffoonery not to be take seriously.  Some bypass this code of the jungle when they feel  the line gets crossed. And asses get kicked.   Such is life.   😧

 

LOL! On point! 

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No @Pioneer1 you and Del have a bad habit of setting up straw men (basically arguing against points you've manufactured, but that I've never made).

 

Pioneer you said you would get physical with some who spoke about your mother.  I said this was barbaric and speaks to a lack of education.  Of course there are other factors like class and the so called "honor culture" that play a factor, but less educated people solve their problems with violence and educationed people usually avoid getting into bar fights.

 

Now Deal attempted to bring in the issue of warring nations a point that was easily dispatched by Cynique -- even though I was not talking about nations, but individuals.

 

But  @Delano, is being completely disingenuous in this debate by making a statement like:

 

6 hours ago, Delano said:

I don't agree with the statement. it is elitist. You're either implying that education reduces aggression. Or there is an inherent difference between educated people and uneducated. 

 

But let someone like @Kalexander2 question his education and he gets completely bent out of shape -- almost as bad as if I talked about Pioneer's mother.  

 

@Delano, of course there are differences between educated people and uneducated ones this is not "elitist" this is simply a statement of fact.  Educated generally know more, are typically better able to assimilate new information, and expand upon and develop new ideas.  Does this make educated people better?  With regard to knowledge -- absolutely!  Why is this even a point of contention?!

 

This is like arguing that an athlete who trains and competes in basketball for years is no better than someone who never played the game. That would be a dumb assumption what make training the body and different than training the mind?

 

But back to the argument; Pioneer of course a friend talking about your mother is different than a stranger doing it.  But as Del reasoned the stranger does not know you mother, so why would their statement make you so upset that you want to fight over it?  Are you that really provoked to violence?  What is wrong with you?

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@Troy you continually keep confusing your opinions with facts. How can I be disingenuous for disagreeing with you. 

 

Growing up we insulted each others family's. I think of this as preparation for going out into the world. The difference between our dynamic is that I wouldn't make it can point to attack someone personally to win an argument. K2 has contempt for Pioneer and Cynique is annoyed by him. 

 

No what annoyes me is that he is disregards boundaries. And he offers advice without a basic understanding of a person. Both Troy and Cynique corrected him before I brought it up. So how is that get to me. No what gets to me is people who think they are sharper than me when it is clear that they are not. in the end I just ignore it because some people have an invincible ignorance.

 

Somewhere in one of the threads in actually had a long dialogue with K2 as to why he thought in was uneducated. He thought me questioning his belief about my education was attacking him. 

 

You and Cynique ascribe motives to me that are not mine. So I feel that you both are projecting your feelings on to me.

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@Delano  Let try to nail down some specific, because you are saying things that I have not said, then using those statements as a basis for arguing my point.  I would start to call you "Mr Straw Man," if Pioneer did not hold the distinction.

 

I'm not saying you are being disingenuous because you disagree with me -- that does not make sense.  I'm saying you are being disingenuous, because I don't think you are articulating what you truly believe. 

 

Perhaps it is because you don't want to appear to be elitist, as you assumed me of being. I don't know your motivation, but I simply do not believe you are arguing, truthfully, that there is no inherent difference between someone who is educated and someone that is not.

 

How many Phd's do you think are in jail for assault?

 

@Pioneer1, next time to you see 45, or even, Obama, kicking someone's ass because someone talked about their Momma you let me know. Shoot, I seriously doubt Obama ever had a fight; that smooth talker probably talked his way out of plenty of beat downs LOL!  Now both of these guys have used the armed forces to fight their battles.  That reminds me, Hillary and Obama celebration over getting Gaddafi killed was disgusting...

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2 hours ago, Troy said:

How many Phd's do you think are in jail for assault?

 

Not many. 

I wonder though, isn't this conditioning? More specifically, I think some people are trained from young, conditioned to think before they react, but others are 

trained to defend themselves... from young and it may be a cultural issue too. As a teacher for middle school children, I came across situations several times

where young Black children will say that their parent told them not to back down, but other kinds of children react totally different if they are bullied.

 

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6 hours ago, Troy said:

But  @Delano, is being completely disingenuous in this debate by making a statement like:

 

13 hours ago, Delano said:

I don't agree with the statement. it is elitist. You're either implying that education reduces aggression. Or there is an inherent difference between educated people and uneducated. 

Can you explain how my opinion is disingenuous 

 

Troy haven't you heard of the Bernoulli Family?

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@Chevdove, admittedly I've simplified a very complex topic.  I too was raised that if someone put their hands you you you hit them back, but my mother did not grow up in an environment with youth gangs.  I recall quite clearly backing down from two fights against dudes I could have easily beaten because they were gang members.  Neither guy pushed the issue so I was able to save face (saving face, trying not to look like a punk, gets a lot of dudes "kilt.")  There are many issues that result in guys killing each other for not good reason.  So ignorant, uneducated, and unsophisticated parents keep the cycle of violence going dooling out bad advice to their children.

 

One of the things that struck me is the difference in the way my kids were raised and the way I was raised -- they never had to fight.  Now they are girls and it sounds crazy to say it but girls fought almost as much as the boys in my day and the girls could be more vicious.

 

Being afraid, or rather wary of danger, on a regular basis is not a good thing.  It is just stressful.  I'm sure this stress is far worse for some today than it was for me. I know this is the reason people explode over minor slights.  People who live in nice neighborhoods have no clue what people who live in crime ridden ghettos have to deal with.  It is hard.

 

@Delano I did explain it.  I'll quote you (again):  I don't think you really believe what you wrote: 

 

13 hours ago, Delano said:

I don't agree with the statement. it is elitist. You're either implying that education reduces aggression. Or there is an inherent difference between educated people and uneducated. 

 

 

Of course there are inherent difference between the educated and the uneducated how on earth can you say there aren't? If there is no difference why did you bother to get a graduate degree and why do you make sure people know you have one or feel threatened when someone questions it?

 

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Troy said:

Delano I did explain it.  I'll quote you (again):  I don't think you really believe what you wrote

Before a person gets educated are they more prone to violence? Also a what level does this take place. If you were to say people are socialised to use words instead of violence, I would be more likely to agree with you. 

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Del, for the 3rd time: do you believe there are any inherent differences between educated people and uneducated people?

 

Del you have a habit of avoiding my questions, while I always make an effort to answer yours.

 

Yes, in general as a person's level of education goes up, one's propensity towards physical violence goes down. Wouldn't you agree?  How many MBA do you know who are convicted of doing drive bys?  I'll tell you, zero. Most perpetrators of drive bys are high school dropouts.*

 

@Pioneer1 when was the last time you were involved in a physical fight with someone?  How old were you and what did they do (assuming you did not start the altercation)?

 

 

----------

*I don't know this to be true, but it sound perfectly plausible doesn't it?

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2 hours ago, Troy said:

I know this is the reason people explode over minor slights.  People who live in nice neighborhoods have no clue what people who live in crime ridden ghettos have to deal with.  It is hard.

 

Yes, thank you!

You've spoken volumes. Some of the issues being raised here in this debate and conversation seem to correlate. Knowledge is power.

When a person has the opportunity to become educated and obtain a better quality of life, they have a better chance of making better 

decisions in times of conflict, but it still doesn't make them immune though, to lashing out.

And also, there are so many people that may never have a chance to live in a community where they don't feel constantly threatened. 

I didn't have to raise my kids as a single mother, but I feel so much passion for mothers who are in that situation and have to deal with 

gang violence. How do you protect your child? Jobs and opportunity are a benefit but after a person has been in a stressful environment

for a long time, they may still carry that defensive front with them and be aggressive to others for little or know justified reason. 

 

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