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Malcolm X Debates Evie Rich (1961) - This is Deep

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Malcolm X debates Evie Rich (a Black woman who is from CORE) on WCAU Radio in 1961.  The argument resonates today.

 

The National is (was) 100% against "interracial" marriage. Rich is married to a white man and hearing her speak about being married to a white man in the context of 1961 America rubs me the wrong way... I can't help it... She said she was as in touch with the so called negro is almost laughable.

 

When Malcolm talks about the importance of land. I agree with him. When Rich disputed him see made it seems as if any educated person would know that this is not true.  Neither provided their point but Malcolm's make more sense to me. 

 

I view the WWW as analogous to physical land.  We are not property owners, but rather fight to excel on white owned properties -- present company excluded of course 😉

 

 

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Sounds like a preMecca Malcolm. 

Islam the foundation of Africans. Do you believe that is true. Because that's what Malcolm X said in this interview. 

 

 

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I agreed with much of what Malcolm said.  The only thing, that comes to mind, is it the interracial marriage thing.  People should marry whoever makes them the least unhappy 😉

 

I can't see myself marrying a white woman, but I have nothing against Brothers who do, if that is what floats their boat.

 

Look, Islam has been a very positive thing for a great many people all over the world. However I would  marry a white woman before I joined Islam if that answers your question.

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No he said Islam was the original religion of Africans. Do you think that is true. 

 

Ironically I used to wonder why successful Black Men married outside of the race. 

 

I had a Black Women give me a bit of heat about dating a white woman. She said a black man and a black women that's a good couple. After we broke up she dated women, and married a one. 

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14 minutes ago, Delano said:

No he said Islam was the original religion of Africans. Do you think that is true. 

 

Of course not. Islam just started it is not even as old as Christianity.

 

As far as successful Black men, I have no idea.  It seems counterintuitive; if you are paid, why not share the wealth with a sister?  Maybe it is cultural?  Maybe it is self-hate.  I dunno know.  Personally, I don't spend enough time around white women to even have the opportunity.

 

My family would probably trip if I even dated a white women LOL.  They ones from the deep south you probably disown me -- they don't pay that shit.

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My mother ask me why don't I date Black Women, later it became don't you like American girls. My mother's Uncle was half Austrian. And my grandmother was half Mohawk Indian. 

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Lol @ how commonly so many AfroAmericans proudly refered to themselves as "negro" in those days.

I actually think both of them had good points.

As usual brother Malik was on point in his message of the Black man acquiring land and pooling his resources together to do for self instead of begging White people to allow him to be a part of their society.

But I also think Evie had a good point about us demanding our rights as citizens and members of this society.
As long as we're going to live IN this society (as opposed to leaving) we might as well have full citizenship with all of it's priviledges.


As far as her being in an "interracial" relationship.......

I found this picture of her with her husband:

Image result for core evie rich

She's a little up in age in that photo but to me she looks MIXED RACE herself.
She clearly has a lot of Caucasian ancestry whether it's immediate as a result of a Caucasian parent or more of a "Beyonce" type where there's a flood of it coming from way back.

How hard is it for a Caucasian man to fall inlove with someone who damn near looks just like him?



 

Also, I'm not sure if anyone else caught this but at the 21 minute mark the caller refered to Black people as "African Americans".

I thought this was amazing for a show back in 1961 because I thought that term didn't come into existence until the early 80s!

 


On a lighter note......she sounds cute as hell, lol.


I'm glad I wasn't the one having to debate her because that very feminine voice would probably have modulated my intensity and and assertiveness, lol.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Del

 

Ironically I used to wonder why successful Black Men married outside of the race.
 

For the same reason so many successful Black men buy nice cars and big houses....
Because it's something many of them always WANTED to do but just didn't have the money or opportunity to do so....until they got it.

Man makes the money....money doesn't make the man.

The only thing money does is expose who you already are and reveal what you really believe.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Delano said:

Ironically I used to wonder why successful Black Men married outside of the race. 

 

A white woman expands a black man’s reach and sphere of influence in a way a working-class or middle-class black woman can’t.  

 

If they travel the ladder together - then they complement each other.  If the black woman is already in the 1% then she can open other doors for the both of them.  

 

Marriage is still a business partnership.

 

Btw, if the black man is already a billionaire then he can pick his wife out of the playboy magazine.  

8 hours ago, Troy said:

I view the WWW as analogous to physical land

 

I agree with this too. But just like real estate, some property cost more to maintain than it’s worth.  

 

But I still rather own than rent. 

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I'm glad you shared that photo @Pioneer1 was wondering what she looked like. I wish there was a video of the conversation. She sounded like, and said things that a white woman, would say. 

 

 I wonder what she thinks think about malcolm now, 60 years later.

 

@Mel Hopkins, oh wait. I thought yall were talking about your run-of-mill white girl.  Shoot, if i could get a white woman in the top 1% of wealth to marry me..... sheeeeit, everybody including my deep south fam  can kiss MBA!

 

 

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Mel
 

A white woman expands a black man’s reach and sphere of influence in a way a working-class or middle-class black woman can’t.

If they travel the ladder together - then they complement each other. If the black woman is already in the 1% then she can open other doors for the both of them.

Marriage is still a business partnership.


That holds some truth, but it's really not that deep.....trust me, lol.
It's really quite simple.

Most men are attracted to looks more so than women and since many AfroAmerican men unfortunately see Caucasian women as prettier or more beautiful....that's who they choose.

Most of these poor and working class White women Tiger Woods and other wealthy AfroAmericans run around with can barely open a can of soup.....without slicing their thumb by accident.....let alone open up spheres of influence, lol.

Most aren't thinking that deeply, they just want what looks good to them.

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Troy

Not sure exactly what rubbed YOU the wrong way about her being married to a White man, but as for me....I have a double standard when it comes to interracial sexual relations.

I respect people's individual freedom to sleep with whom they choose in most cases but I find it far more acceptable for an African man to have sex with a Caucasian woman than for an African woman to have sex with a Caucasian man because of the dangers involved.

When men have sex with women it's usually a physical thing or a lustful thing but the "heart" is USUALLY not involved.
Hell, many slave masters had sex with African women without showing the least bit of concern for them or their offspring.

However most of the time when a woman VOLUNTARILY lays down with a man she has strong feelings for him and often times really loves him and will sell out her own family and community for his love....which makes AfroAmerican women more vulnerable to being used.

I think most men instinctively know this which is why most groups are especially protective of their women while allowing their men to run around having sex with whoever.




BTW....good looking out in the other thread, lol.

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1 minute ago, Pioneer1 said:

However most of the time when a woman voluntarily lays down with a man she has strong feelings for him and often times really loves him and will sell out her own family and community for his love.

 

@Pioneer1Is that what black women tell you?

 

Or do you believe that because of the love you have for black women and you hope it’s the truth? 

 

32 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Most of these poor and working class White women Tiger Woods and other wealthy AfroAmericans run around with can barely open a can of soup.....without slicing their thumb by accident.....let alone open up spheres of influence, lol.

 

Actually being white is enough because of the access.  You do know white high school graduates have more wealth  than black college graduates and even those who have master level degrees ...

 

and tiger didn’t marry no broke chick who wasn’t connected.  Inquiring minds like mine always want to know - who wealthy folks are marrying.

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41 minutes ago, Troy said:

I thought yall were talking about your run-of-mill white girl. 

 

I haven’t read about any wealthy person marrying a run-of-the mill any woman... most of these women are connected —

 

Then there’s Robert Smith multi-billionaire who married  Hope Dworaczyk , former playboy model but she is also coproducer of E - entertainment fashion segment in Canada,  when they married. 

 

Oh and yes, they’re gorgeous women too - so yes, I agree that’s something too. But there are gorgeous black women so all things equal it’s that extra thing.

 

 

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Mel

Is that what black women tell you?

Or do you believe that because of the love you have for black women and you hope it’s the truth?


I have an extremely high regard for the truth.
My love for AfroAmerican women has little to no bearing on my acceptance of the truth.

I already KNOW that many of them have more respect for and faith in Caucasian men than AfroAmerican men even if they told me otherwise, and I also know why.  I wish this weren't so but I don't refuse to accept it.

I learned early in life that in order to change reality you must first ACCEPT it as it really is.

 

 

 

and tiger didn’t marry no broke chick who wasn’t connected.

It was my understanding that the first White wife he had that kept going upside his head and tried to run him over with the car that he bought her started off as his HOUSEKEEPER.

Not exactly the cream of the crop in White society.



Inquiring minds like mine always want to know - who wealthy folks are marrying.

 

Why?
Lol...trying to calculate your chances???

 

I think think he's got himself another White woman right now but like most AfroAmerican men Tiger is HIGHLY polygamous so you still might have a shot.

Michael Jackson said "get on it"....lol.

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4 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Not exactly the cream of the crop in White society.

 

@Pioneer1

 

While I don’t like to point folks to wikipedia - I’ll do it in this case... go to wikipedia and check out Elin Nordegren - then check out her parents. 

 

While some average black men marry for a big butt and a smile (I kid I kid) (kinda)  black men with bank and upperclass black men still appear to marry for reasons other than a good-looking piece of hiney.  

 

Btw,  @Pioneer1 I’ll never understand why you don’t research these little “fun facts” before you make a claim.  

 

As for me, I’ve already  been married and had my  3 babies - so no, I don’t need to look. 

29 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

I already KNOW that many of them have more respect for and faith in Caucasian men than AfroAmerican men even if they told me otherwise, and I also know why.

 

I really find that hard to believe. Really. I’ve known some black women who have been run over by black men...who left them as roadkill  and the women have divorced and remarried another black man.  Black women are freakishly loyal to black men.  So loyal it makes me throw up in my mouth a little. 🤢

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Mel

I'm not wealthy (yet) so perhaps you may know more about the habits of wealthy Black men than I do.
I'm not going to get into that argument.

I said she was his housekeeper and I was wrong about that.  So it turns out that she was actually a NANNY, not too much of a difference from a socio-economic point of view.  And I checked out her parents and although they aren't broke the family certainly wasn't anywhere on Tiger's level of wealth and prestige.

The point is......he married DOWN and not up, financially.

What did he have to gain by marrying her?
What sphere of influence or connections did she have that he wasn't privy to already?

This had nothing to do with strategy, he just saw a woman he found attractive and ended up "getting got".

I'm sure SHE was planning and being strategic though.
Many Caucasian women who marry wealthy AfroAmerican men do.

I'm sure her and her family are enjoying half of HIS wealth she managed to wrangle away from him.....as was probably planned in advance.

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Mel


Black women are freakishly loyal to black men. So loyal it makes me throw up in my mouth a little


Don't confuse loyalty with lack of options.

Perhaps they were "loyal" because for centuries they didn't have much of a choice.

From first contact up until about 30 years ago the VAST majority of sexual contact between Caucasian men and African women was by force and violence. Either by abuse and/or by straight up rape.
Although they DID exist.....even during slavery....only a very small percentage of African female/Caucasian male sexual relationships were actually based on mutual love and understanding.

Most Caucasian men didn't accept African women as "wife material" or even fully human in many cases.
They primarily saw them as sexual objects and property.

So for most of American history AfroAmerican women stayed with Black men because most of them didn't have the OPTION to leave.



Things are different today where it appears many Caucasian men are taking every opportunity they can to score themselves a "Black chick"....lol.

Many of them are not only marrying Black women, but paying their bills, taking care of their children from previous relationships, even buying property and moving them on to it.

An intelligent person would ask WHY the change of heart all of sudden now?

Why would you don so much love and respect on a person whom you declared "subhuman" just a few generations ago?

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17 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Not sure exactly what rubbed YOU the wrong way about her being married to a White man

 

I think it was the combination of that and her opposition to virtually every point made by Malcolm. Now I know, in the early 60's, many middle and upper middle class black people rejected Malcolm's relatively radical position to white people and white racism.

 

Still, knowing the context of the time, she rubbed me the wrong way -- especially when you consider how things turned out.

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16 hours ago, Delano said:

And why do Black Women marry or date outside the race. 

 

The best answer I can give to why black women would marry white men - has to do with currency.  What does she value.  Will she have to change what she values when she marries?    

 

I value freedom of movement,  access to information so I  got a lot of mileage from marrying a blue-eyed blond German-French man -

 

But then again, I grew up privileged so it was hard for me to consider marrying anyone who wasn’t. 

 

17 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Don't confuse loyalty with lack of options

 Good point. 

 

 

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17 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

I'm not wealthy (yet) so perhaps you may know more about the habits of wealthy Black men than I do.
I'm not going to get into that argument.

 

This raises a good point - because you and I deal in different currency.  Your understanding of marrying up or down may be based on monetary value whereas mine is based in information, access to places that most people are unaware even exists,  and opportunities  to increase territory.  

 

Money can’t buy access - it simply makes it easier to move through once access is granted.  

 

Tiger’s father was military and he saw the world from one perspective - but he and his wife couldn’t give Tiger full access.  They took him as far as they could. 

 

 Elin's mother is  high-level legislator for the Swedish government  and her father headed news bureaus in Berlin and was a U.S. White House correspondent.  They don’t hand out those press passes to just anyone.  

 

So when Tiger tied the knot with Elin, his star was heading light years away from earth. 

 

By the way, any woman agreeing to give birth to man’s offspring upgrades that man- full stop.

 

Also note: accepting a position as a Nanny is much different than having to work as a nanny.  The aforementioned allows access - whereas the latter is employment.  

 

Maybe you missed the sentence where Elin was asked by the wife of the Swedish pro-golfer to be a nanny to her children when they came to the U.S. -

 

Not only did Elin arrive in the U.S. on someone’s dime - she landed smack dab in the middle in Tiger’s world. She worked as a nanny one time in her life and did it for about a year.  The next year she was engaged to Tiger.

 

Elin is said to come from a family of intellectuals.  She lived a life of privilege and used her wits to continue the lifestyle she’d grown accustomed to and Tiger’s babies are now citizens of the world.  

 

So, all this just to reiterate -  when wealthy black man marries a white woman -she may be prettier than a black woman to the man - but  no one gets wealthy without a strategy. 

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There's a difference between wealthy and rich. Bianca Jagger and Jackie O were wealthy. Trump and Madonna are rich. 

And some people have so much charisma they don't need money. 

 

There are many worlds out there, requiring different keys to enter. 

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3 hours ago, Mel Hopkins said:

Elin's mother is  high-level legislator for the Swedish government  and her father headed news bureaus in Berlin and was a U.S. White House correspondent.  They don’t hand out those press passes to just anyone.  

 

See what I mean I had not idea.  I thought Tiger married some PWT baby sister.  That was the narrative running around social media. I should just get my news from @Mel Hopkins 🙂

 

4 hours ago, Mel Hopkins said:

I grew up privileged so it was hard for me to consider marrying anyone who wasn’t. 

 

This is deep. 

 

As I navigate the dating scene; I say to myself that I want, indeed need someone from a class above my own, but in the final analysis I'm more attracted to women in my class and I believe the attraction works the other way too.

 

The same also goes for intelligence, physical fitness, and spirituality.  I'd want a mate in the same ballpark as I am in all these dimensions.

 

Thinking about it a bit more, I don't think an Evie Rich would even consider a Brother like myself.  I think she had to marry a white guy. Maybe that is also part of my aversion to her was well @Pioneer1.  It was not just her disagreement with Malcom, maybe I saw it as her disagreeing with everything he represented -- including myself.

 

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2 hours ago, Troy said:

See what I mean I had not idea.  I thought Tiger married some PWT baby sister.  That was the narrative running around social media. I should just get my news from

Not idea indeed. Professor Smalls 

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7 hours ago, Troy said:

Here he makes NY1 reported look pretty weak.

@Troy , That’s not journalism that’s an editorialized hit-piece. 

 

This video looks like it was from the era when news started to go down that road of sensationalism. I agree with Dr. Khalid when he says, to paraphrase these are words from the “white” man (i.e., the establishment).  Shame on this talkshow host acting as if he was unbiased.  He had an agenda. And that agenda cheated the viewers. 

10 hours ago, Troy said:

It was not just her disagreement with Malcom, maybe I saw it as her disagreeing with everything he represented -- including myself.

 

@Troy  this is so honest and extremely self-aware!  I didn’t understand until this moment why you sometimes mention that most people don’t  know themselves.  But this reveals those hard truths one has to recognize first before they can go deep into self.  

 

This discussion (thread) made me face some unpleasant truths about myself too.  Actually had me effed up all day. 

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11 hours ago, Delano said:

There are many worlds out there, requiring different keys to enter. 

 

@Delano  Ain’t that the truth!

 

 I had a dream about this very concept and it helped me to understand that not only do you need a key - you must be willing to use it if you have it. 

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Some mistake their world for the entire world. 

22 minutes ago, Mel Hopkins said:

This discussion (thread) made me face some unpleasant truths about myself too.  Actually had me effed up all day

Right there. 

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Del
 

why do Black Women marry or date outside the race.


Women's choices vary individually, but generally speaking I've found out that most women of color who date or marry White men do so in hopes that it will make things better for themselves and their children.

It's certainly isn't because they find them sexier or think they're going to please them better in bed....which is some of what nature intended.

In a society where the resources are being heavily manipulated and controled, most women don't have the option of dating and marrying simply for sexual gratification, they have to make all type of sacrifices to their comfort and dignity by going after whoever they think will be the best provider for them and their offspring.

And believe it or not many AfroAmerican women even date and marry White men hoping that their children will come out lighter skinned with curly or wavy hair.....LOL.

 

 

There's a difference between wealthy and rich. Bianca Jagger and Jackie O were wealthy. Trump and Madonna are rich.

And some people have so much charisma they don't need money.


There is definately a difference between wealth and richness.
Wealth includes POWER and influence in your society.

But I would still definately put Trump and Madonna in the "wealthy" category.

 

 

 

 

 



Mel
 

By the way, any woman agreeing to give birth to man’s offspring upgrades that man- full stop


Hmmm.......
I understand what you're saying but I wouldnt' go as far as saying it "upgrades" the man.
Upgrading is usually a more concrete and absolute term that is evident both internally and externally whether society itself can see the improvement.

I would say having a man's baby or just being willing to sleep with a man improves his SELF ESTEEM and basically tells him "good job" in whatever he's doing.

But if I understand the FOUNDATION of your point then not only do I agree but it's one that I've been telling a lot of young women for over a decade now who think they can "change" criminal minded and irresponsible men.

Many young girls think that they can sleep with a man first and change him later through her love and encouragement.
I tell them that it's just the oppposite......
Sleeping with a man is a way of REWARDING him and once a woman sleeps with a man in any condition he's in she's basically telling him "I love you just the way you are which is why I'm giving myself to you".

If he was no-good, broke, and abusive when you met him and you rewarded him with all of the sex he wants.....why should he change his behavior and risk messing things up.

 

 

 

 

 

Troy


Clearly that video has been heavily edited.
I wonder what looks like uncut and in it's entirety.

You can tell that the interview was going to be a hit piece when Carter started off with the phrases: "You NEED to answer" and " You CLAIM to be a leader".....lol.

I wonder how far would a reporter (even a Fox News Reporter) would have gotten with Trump if they had started off with telling him you NEED to answer these questions,lol.

He...like many people of that time...seriously underestimated the intellectual capabilities of Dr. Khalid Muhammad and thought he would be able to easily trap and manipulate him.

Muhammad didn't just have a doctorate degree but he held degrees from both Yale AND Harvard and was a professor in California state.
That man was literally "gifted"...a genius.


If you followed the rap groups of the 80s and 90s like Public Enemy, Khalid Muhammad is the one giving the speech in the introduction of Public Enemy's "Night of the Living Baseheads" song that tells the tale of New York's crack epidemic in the 80s.



BTW, if you think THAT interview was interesting, listen to an interview Khalid did with SEAN HANNITY that seems to have taken place sometime in the 80s early in Sean's career before he joined Fox News when he was just a small time radio host:

 

https://youtu.be/Pm7_JqqUQWc

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@Pioneer1 I'd previously heard the Hannity and Khalid interview.  I thought the Carter interview was more biased which is why I shared it here. It was almost bizarre how Dominic kept putting words in Khalid's mouth.  I did not know Khalid was so heavily credentialed. 

 

What do you know about his getting booted out of the NOI and his death?

 

I met Dominic once when he was promoting is book No Momma's Boy.  Maybe he was trying to overcompensate in this interview.  He was later accused of spousal abuse and lost his job as a result.

 

@Mel Hopkins that is what it is all about. 

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Pioneer this matches my definition (connotation?) for both words.

 

wealthy

 
 

ADJECTIVE

  • Having a great deal of money, resources, or assets; rich.

     

    rich

     
     

    ADJECTIVE

    • 1Having a great deal of money or assets; wealthy

She has a wealth of talents. 

 

He was richly rewarded for his work.

 

That's how I see them as well.

@Cynique why do Black Women marry outside of their race. 

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RANDOM THOUGHTS

 

SMH. Husbands don't even understand their wives, and for a single man to broach the subject of why black women marry white men is beyond the pale; pun intended. Dispensing answers to this question is on a par with a black man explaining why white men marry black women; these are both subjects he is not qualified to speak on.  Why black women marry white men is a choice that is as individual as their finger print and the reasons Pioneer provides for black women marrying white men can also apply to why they marry black men. Sheeze.  Conspicuously absent from his explanations for an interracial marriage is that the couple are in love,  and very revealing is his reluctance to believe they could possibly be sexually compatible.  As for his other tarnished nugget of wisdom  in regard to woman wanting to reform wayward men, Maya Angelou offered this sage advice years ago: "if a man shows you who he is, believe him."  Pioneer's intrusion  into unknown  territory is an exercise that  is comparable to me pontificating on a subject such as the pros and cons of circumcision.  Puleeze

 

BTW,  wealth has been described as "old money" that has been inherited.  So Trump is wealthy.  Madonna came from an average middleclass family, but through talent and ambition she was able elevate herself to the ranks of the "noveau riche". 

 

Khalid Muhammad is like a character from central casting, selected for a sinister role for which he is perfect thanks to his appearance and manner. 

 

8 hours ago, Mel Hopkins said:

this is so honest and extremely self-aware!  I didn’t understand until this moment why you sometimes mention that most people don’t  know themselves.  But this reveals those hard truths one has to recognize first before they can go deep into self.  

"This above all to thine ownself be true" has always been my mantra.   I know why I'm hypercritical and argumentive, why i hate maudlin things, and the why of my love/hate relationship with males of the species.  It all has to do with perfection, something i lack but crave.  I also have 3 different personas and believe i am reincarnated because of certain things I've known without being told. And i also  know nobody gives a damn about me revealing this because i am considered self-centered and am hiding behind a facade - which i'm not.  🙃 😵 

 

 

 

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OMG! I’m only 6 minutes and 16 seconds into the debate and I want to punch Evie in the face!  She reminds me of those GOP women who vote their husband’s interest.  

 

Malcolm X , on the other hand is sounding like a Thanksgiving meal and I’m praying for seconds. 

 

He’s saying the same thing I think when reports indicate  African-Americans have trillion dollar purchasing power.  While it is an interesting factoid, that even I repeat, it still stands to reason that purchasing power isn’t the same as net worth.   The black community allegedly has zero wealth and  would have to beg, borrow and steal to keep corporations in the black - while emptying what’s left of its coffers.

 

I’m with @Troy , Evie needs to take several seats.

 

Almost 60 years later and Malcolm X

is still the voice of reason. 

 

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6 hours ago, Cynique said:

Husbands don't even understand their wives

 

LOL ain't that the Mother effing truth. 

 

On the dating scene now I'm Mister Communication, and you know what even talking to folks I'm was not particularly interested initially in makes them even more interesting. 

 

6 hours ago, Cynique said:

a single man to broach the subject of why black women marry white men is beyond the pale

 

I would not be so quick to dismiss the experience of a single man regarding why women get married.  Getting married is relatively easy.  Staying married is the hard part.  Getting married and the staying married are too different entirely different things.  (Wait?! Am I, actually, backing up @Pioneer1 against Cynique -- lawd hammercy!)

 

Right now the focus was in the getting married part.  @Mel Hopkins raised an interesting point in that marriage is indeed a business relationship. I suspect marriages thought of in this way would last longer than those that were not.  I'm not saying love is not a factor, but if you respect your partner, have a physical attraction, and keep your business cap on the love that can grow from that partnership may be boundless.

 

@Delano can you be highly opinionated and not self-centered?  Highly opinionated implies an irrational fixation on one's own thoughts over those of others, which is the very definition of being self-centered? What do you think?

 

1 hour ago, Mel Hopkins said:

Almost 60 years later and Malcolm X

is still the voice of reason. 

 

Deep. imagine if Malcolm was allowed to continue to grow and develop as a man....

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Troy said:

 

@Delano can you be highly opinionated and not self-centered?  Highly opinionated implies an irrational fixation on one's own thoughts over those of others, which is the very definition of being self-centered? What do you think?

 

Cynique

yes, you no.

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3 hours ago, Troy said:

would not be so quick to dismiss the experience of a single man regarding why women get married.  Getting married is relatively easy.  Staying married is the hard part.  Getting married and the staying married are too different entirely different things.  (Wait?! Am I, actually, backing up @Pioneer1 against Cynique -- lawd hammercy!)

Well, i should have been more specific.  i should've said a man who has never been married is not a reliable source of why a woman would marry a man of any race, especially if this single man wrongly assumes that white men are not virile and potent and are, therefore, not someone a black woman would fall in love with. And if he further assumes that there aren't light-skinned black men who would produce the light-skinned children with curly hair a black woman might want, and if he lastly assumes that race is a factor when it comes to raising  the social and financial status of a husband-seeking black woman. Any professional black man could do that; a doctor of any ethnicity is a "catch". Back to the first claim which is that of a black man who desperately clings to the idea that black men are the only ones who are well-hung and good in the bed. Untrue.  

 

3 hours ago, Troy said:

@Delano can you be highly opinionated and not self-centered?  Highly opinionated implies an irrational fixation on one's own thoughts over those of others, which is the very definition of being self-centered? What do you think?

 

1 hour ago, Delano said:

Cynique

yes, you no.

 

I will further describe myself as an iconoclast by nature, one who has been influenced by the advice of Buddha to question everything, which doing, often leads to shattering traditionally held beliefs. e.g.  In their desperation to establish their own mythic figures and heroes, black folks have elevated certain leaders to a sacrosanct status; a bracket that immunizes their designated icons from  criticism.  So, to not blindly revere  the likes of  Malcolm X and Martin Luther King or dare i say, Louis Farrakhan, is something akin to committing a sin.  Once a quote from any of these icons is injected into a conversation, the person to whom it is directed is expected to automatically acquiesce to the validity and veracity of the words or deeds cited. To react otherwise is a "no-no". White folks also use this tactic to shut down blacks.  Yes, these noteworthy black men were/are articulate and charismatic but they were/are not flawless or infallible. Bringing up their names in an effort to mute rebuttals is something I scoff at. I have become a truth-seeker, and the truth will reveal itself in the context of all the facts. So, what does this make true about me? i'll never tell but i will confess that black female icons are so much more awesome to me than male ones.    😎  

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Wow. In a way, her speech pattern does sounld, to me anyway, like she is Black but then, she also sounds to me like she could be White [European] too.  She can't pick that accent up from just being around White people or her husband, IMO. Nevertheless, regarding Malcolm X, WOW. I read a book about him and I was under the impression that he had a time in his life in which he dated White women!? [side note: But then, hey, my speech pattern has fooled a many of people]

 

At any rate, I think that Interracial relationships between AfroAmerican Descendants of Slaves and White Europeans is not 'cut and dry'; It is wrong to categorize everyone with the same conclusion. I think that COLORISM doesn't help this cause either. But, again, in my experience, there are Black men who blatantly based their choice to date and marry White women based on their hatred of Black women and vice versa, and this is a serious problem. But then, there are also some Black men that I have come across that date White women, but they don't disrespect Black women and at times, they are very positive and address issues of racism against Black people. The late, Ivan Van Sertima, immediatly comes to my mind. He married a White woman, and this does not take away from his positivity as a Black man, IMO. 

 

I've also come across a number of AfroAmerican women scholars who are married to White men, and has done passionate work on bringing forth information about the Black presence in ancient civilizations and are very positive.

 

But, I have a double standard too, when it comes to Black women who date White men. My take on this is not easy for me to explain or express on paper. I absolutely don't agree with anyone feeling they have to demean Black men as a basis for wanting White men, but I think there is a deepr level when it comes to Black women in this subject. I also think that celebrities should not be excluded and exempt from affecting the masses because they do reflect the whole. ONe of my favorite actresses is Whoopi Goldberg, and I realize she rubs some Blacks the wrong way. Another of my favorite celebrities is Alfre Woodard, and I was surprised to find out she married a White man, but nevertheless, I don't feel that the 'sold out their people', so I still appreciate their work.

 

As for Evie, she rubs me the wrong way. 

 

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1 hour ago, Cynique said:

o, to not blindly revere  the likes of  Malcolm X and Martin Luther King or dare i say, Louis Farrakhan, is something akin to committing a sin.  Once a quote from any of these icons is injected into a conversation, the person to whom it is directed is expected to automatically acquiesce to the validity and veracity of the words or deeds cited.

 

OH GOSH, so true!!!

 

1 hour ago, Cynique said:

To react otherwise is a "no-no". White folks also use this tactic to shut down blacks.

 

absolutely.

 

45 minutes ago, Chevdove said:

Wow. In a way, her speech pattern does sounld, to me anyway, like she is Black but then, she also sounds to me like she could be White [European] too.  She can't pick that accent up from just being around White people or her husband, . . . [side note: But then, hey, my speech pattern has fooled a many of people]

 

Okay, so this is so complex to me, in that she is debating with Malcolm X, but I think he too, was not all that Pro-Black all of his life. We all have issues and need to work them out, but it is not easy trying to do this in America. Anyway, I don't think it is good to 'judge a book by its' cover'. We all have to contemplate how we have come to form our opinions regarding racism. So, this reminds me of something that happend to me years ago:

 

 

Side Note: Years ago when my oldest child was a toddler and my younger child was an infant, I accused my husband of cheating on me with a White woman but the end result, was embarrassing for me. My next-door neighbor, a White American ‘German-type’ girl was my best friend at the time and I asked for her help in confronting my husband when he came home from work. I had checked our answering machine and ‘my heart fell through my stomach’ as I listened to what sounded like a White woman talking to my husband on the recorder. I immediately ran and knocked on my girlfriend’s door and had her come listen to the recording. She also said that it sounded like a White woman and she too, got angry. So both me and her came out into the foyer at the top of the second floor of our apartment building and waited for my husband, ‘that BLAM NEGRGO’ to get home. He climbed the stairs and then we confronted his ‘behind’. But, he paid us NO attention and he looked tired from work. He completely ‘blew us off’ as he opened the door, but we followed him down the hallway to our bedroom and we demanded that he listen to the voicemail. So, I hit the button with passion, and stood back by my girlfriend to see what he was gonna do when he saw that we busted his rass. . . . So, after he listened to the voicemail, he turned and looked at me and said, “[my nick name]”. He said, ‘Chev’, he paused; “THAT’S YOU.”

 

OMG. My girlfriend and I looked at each other, in surprise, and then, I realized that it was me! OMG. DARN. We both grabbed each other, and slowly backed out of the room, then we ran down the hallway and out and ran into her apartment… and laughed till we cried. I had forgotten what I sounded like on recordings. My girlfriends at the HBCU always gave me a hard time about my speech pattern and I sometimes try to change it, but my siblings and cousins from Western Pennsylvania, we all sound very similar. So, the moral of this crazy experience would be for me, in that it’s not good always judge a book by it’s cover. The first impression may not be the complete person. 

 

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