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@Chevdove: I've come to the opinion that we may never know, with clear certainty, true world history let alone our own true history. What it comes down to is a kind of 'deductive' reasoning; it is unlikely life started in the 'snow' or in hostile environments unfavorable, or unable to sustain human organisms and if it did humans could not strive; too long unless they were cannibalistic in nature; many Blacks want to believe this is the case. I disdain white folks too but creating what suits us is unreasonable; though ancient white folk must have been cannibals. Ancient Africans practiced cannibalism up to the 19th century and they lived in favorable climate environments. I wish you could see the caves in the desert areas here, they can totally sustain humans indefinitely. I've been doing a great deal of inquiring about purchasing some desert area; aside from the cobra's, scopion's, and bugs, conversion to modern living; with a dunes buggy and/or camel, comfort is truly possible. The only real setback is dealing with locals who see strangers as unwelcome intruders. Which tells me right-way whites could not have come out of the desert to people who considered them unwelcomed outsiders and, certainly not without, at least sunscreen, It's a lie that white European Jews ever lived in the desert before the last six-thousand years; the 1947 war establishing their so-called right to return home was the biggest vile they ever pulled over on the world's eyes. And it worked through history textbooks, folklore, and myths. The controversy between creationism and Darwin only adds to the confusion. Take the hegemonic power vacuum over the past few thousand years and people are left babbling who they are where they came from with a few groups actually in-charge. But it doesn't matter either because of world events of today; who's going to be left standing if James Balwin is right about destruction by "The Fire Next Time?"

I couldn't agree more, Chevdove, even a sheltered Black who never went to public elementary school have experienced the 'dozens' insult game we stupid adults indulge today. True, it only goes to show how we Blacks still tear down each other for no logical reason except for attention, or power; is childish by all means. After it became obvious the other party had no intention of moving beyond the petty rhetoric I decided to make the only move reasonable in such a situation. Stoy conversing to remain focused for the sake of other members here, if not entirely make peace. Great response, thanks for helping stay focused!!!

@Troy I initially find it hard to believe that @Pioneer1 took it personal, but after a while of seeing other post, I do believe he did take it as a personal insult. So I understand. My attempt to 'step in cautiously' to be the 'peace makerr', helps sometimes to make things better for others... But since I did make statements, I will also say this; I felt that for the purpose of the forum, and because it seemed to be ongoing, and going and going, it was a good idea for someone to help the two posters maybe have a truce and to maybe come up with a better approach to converse on topics without attacking each other. I have no idea why they have done this back and forth, and I just read I think, that Kalexander2 did say he may not really care for Pioneer1's input. IMO, that's okay, but for them both to attack each is also not good if they don't stop, LOL. I've been there, done that too. I can get caught up into a conversation, however, deep inside, I know I should stop, leave off, but sometimes find myself in a rat race... I try to defend myself from what I perceive, as an passive aggressive attack against my person and NOT what I say or believe, but me. And, I have a trigger and sometimes in conversation, with certain relatives like my older sister , I find myself all worked up in a defensive mode and can't figure out how I continue to get to that point, only that I keep going into the conversation and get no satisfaction all the while. I still find it hard to believe that someone today, would take 'YO MAMA' jokes personally, but historically, this kind of conversation did tear down Black people and it is a great method to cause dissention. But, I didn't get that it was a personal insult coming from @Kalexander2 either. No, I don't weigh in on either of the two posters, in my opinion. I think the insults were pretty even between the both of them. I kind of felt like it was just that perhaps, some kind of dissention started back at some point and they may have needed a little nudge to bring the purpose of this forum back into thier focus. @Delano Ahhh! This is exactly my feelings, just couldn't word so well! Thank you!

i can't believe you asked that question. Of course slaves were losers. They lost everything, their freedom, their identity, their families, their culture. Just because they weren't responsible for this happening, doesn't make them winners. They were victims, and victims are the epitome of being losers because Life has kicked them in the ass. @Kalexander2 Losers are not necessarily bad people. They're hapless unfortunate people. A female abuser is a bad person but if he is in total charge of his life, in this cruel world, he is a winner because he has triumphed over what was keeping him down.

Time will tell.

You are right, brother Troy; in fact, I'm about 8-hours from the Egyptian border, visited there several times, driving from Israel; yet they call Israel part of the Middle East, even area's in Palestine they call Israel. It's all Africa with African Christian, Muslim, and Jewish religion cultures and people. One cannot say they are of Arab cultures only; not Egypt, Libya, nor Morocco. They are part of the African continent where Black African, Arabs, and Jews live. Simple as that, period. Even the United Nations, though they recognize something called the 'State of Isreal," they actually consider what is called Israel as Palestine. Isreal is just a government State without a country, until the 1947 war where even Jews called a "Beautiful Bride Married to Another" as Palestine. Colorful words to that successfully hide their true intention from this stupid world. You must realize brother, it's easy for Europeans to win-over foolish Black folk because they understand we'll never question what they say.

@Pioneer1, I'm not confused. But it is pointless to argue over geography because maps clearly show Morocco and Egypt are in Africa. As far as the Middle East is concerned it was something created by white folks, like the national borders of present day Africa, created without regard to the cultures or input from the people who lived there. If your definition of being in the middle East is, "CONTROLLED by Arabs and it's culture," how do you explain Israel? Besides you, who else considers Morocco to be in the Middle East? No need to bring in issues of politics, religion, or the white man into this. Just admit you made a mistake, learn from the experience, and move on -- what is the big deal? ------------- Hey @Kalexander2 no need to copy the entire post of someone you are replying too -- especially when your reply immediately follows (just a tip to reduce clutter in the conversations)

@Pioneer1 the problem is that white people put Egypt which is firmly on the African Continent in a nonsensically named place they made up called the "middle East." Clearly Egypt is in Africa -- full stop, end of story.

Chevdove But here is the issue that I see though; The Western Civilization and I suppose other nations too, keep changing the names and the maps with regards to the origins of certain people in ancient times. Iraq, Syria, Saudi, had people living in these areas that had other descriptive names that place them with 'other origins' that places them in Africa too, before they migrated east. For example, in the land of ancient Iran, Persia, lived the people of AI I've heard the argument that the Middle East is actually part of northeast Africa but the West tries to seperate it. To be honest, I could see it that way....but barely. As far as I'm concerned it's just as much if not more a part of Asia than Africa. I believe since most Black people in the United States are either Muslim or Christian they have an interest in seeing what their religions call the "holy land" as part of Africa.....similar to how a lot of our people want to make Jesus and the other biblical characters Black. I'm beyond that at this point. I do recognize that the ORIGINAL inhabitants of that region were indeed Black..... Before the Caucasian Medes and Persians moved into Iran the original peoples there were a Black people known as Elamites. Before for the Caucasian Syrians moved into the Palestine coastal regions, the original people's in that area were Black and built a city called "Salem" that Caucasian later came in, continued to build upon, and now call "Jeru-SALEM" They were a tall and strong Black people and when the Caucasians saw them they called them "Giants". Infact, the original inhabitants of Italy and Greece were Black people known as Etruscans. So clearly Black isn't limited to Africa. and from my research, this name connects to a very early people during the Copper Age, that dominated 'the MIddle East' [ie. Jerusalem] and that came from MADAI-JAPHETH. From this civilization came people and civilization like; Japeth is also related to the Greco-Roman deity JUPITER. According to the myth, when Japeth and his family moved down from the Caucasus mountains into Greece...him and many of his offspring were deified as Greek gods and heros.

This topic is a brilliant display of subjectivity and the state of Black America. Various posters have commented on what is wrong or needs fixing in the Black community. Maybe we have to learn to respect each other , how to critque an argument without, insulting the perlson, or really listen and try to understand the perspective and the person. I have been guilty of every one of those flaws. Which resulting in my apologising to both Mel and Troy. I also realise my elitist attiutude about thinking, which resulted in my recognising Pioneer's modus operandi. There is a difference between perception and the reality of a person or situation. So my comments are more societal than individual. Also because making comments to any individual is pointless until they are open. Or willing to see another perspective. We are both watching and engaging in the psychopathology of Black People.

@Chevdove, often merely disagreeing with something is seen as a personal attack. There are people I can't even have a conversation with because if I disagree with them they take it personally -- and that is in the real world where I'm not nearly as direct as I am here. The other problem is everyone is different. Take Pioneer's demand for an apology for example. He feels K2 crossed a line and now he deserves an apology But he can't see that the line he created is purely arbitrary, of his own making, and no one else is bound to accept it. That does not mean his line is wrong or right, but I'm not going to ban people crossing every arbitrary line that someone has crossed. K2 could simply invoke some arbitrary line that Pioneer crossed and demand an apology too. This is a lose-lose scenario @Pioneer1 banning you both would obviously bring an end to the bickering. But again, I would not do that because you are both capable of making meaningful contributions to the forum and I don't ban people for getting into arguments -- these things happen. It is just this argument has gone on for sometime and I was curious what you other people really thought about it. {Donning my hotep hat} It does pain me to see two Black Kings tearing each other down.