Troy

@Mel Hopkins Yes, that is it. It is not an either or proposition, and there are varying degrees of influence across a wide range of domains. However, all things considered I believe the influence of marketers, in our capitalist society, does us more harm than good. But again, that is because I believe we are more adversely influenced by their influence than you do. Death from cancers diabetes, hypertension, poor air quality, etc, are all the result of use behaving in ways, influenced by marketers that is self-destructive. We can't even get guns out of the hands of crazy folks you'll shoot up a church or school because of the gun culture that has been manufactured .

Interesting article. Seems the great flood washed way a great many things. The flood story permeates ancient culture across the globe.

@Cynique I understand your point I just disagree with it. It is clear to be that your worldview is one shared by folks living in or near big cities. I'm sure despite everything I've written that I'll never convince you that there are large swaths of this country that don't agree with abortion, out of wedlock birth, homosexuality, consumption of alcohol, and all the other practices you city slickers seem to enjoy (think Nation of Islam -- but for the rest of America). No, I was not familiar with the universal law called the "the age of consent." I presume this means that I as a 56 year old man can have sex with a 17 as long is I can convince her to agree to do it -- which I assure you would not be very difficult. In your book of morality is that cool with you? I'm asking because my next question would be how about if she were 15? At some point you'd draw a line and and I'd give you an examples of people who have crossed that line, and contrast it with your own "puritanical" values. I do not think you are as "liberal" as you are trying to make yourself appear to be Cynique -- but that is a good thing. Again we all judge and for good reason.

Yes @Mel Hopkins I too am under the influence -- we are all, some to a greater degree than others. Your last post Mel tells me you give marketers too little credit. You are telling me that you smoked to keep your weight down -- despite knowing how lethal cigarettes are?! Why not simply consume fewer calories, or take the stairs, or park further away from the mall entrance? It seems to me that you and Cynique will bend over backwards to justify the destructive behavior dictated by marketers... I know you are familiar with the concept of creating a market -- manufacturing demand for a product when one did not previously exist -- even it if consumption of the product is destructive. Cigarettes are a good example. Crack is another. I agree there is always some perceived value by the buyer but that perspective may be artificial, as created by the marketer. Part of the skill of a good pulling off a great con is never letting the mark know he has been had. All of the largest corporations are brilliant at this -- it is variation of having a big gun and being willing to use it. Cigarette manufacturers are making more money today than ever before. I'd argue they should not be allowed to sell these lethal products, but I'm sure y'all will conjure up some justification for allowing them to continue as more people die...

@Cynique, I guess the basis of our disagreement is your statement: "People are not as naive about this as you seem to think. They just don't care. They want enjoyment out of life..." I know people are naive and ignorant about how thoroughly manipulated they are today. They can't care because they do not know. Obviously, we want to enjoy our lives and many of those who are aware are the ones capitalizing from the manipulation -- the rest of us are simply helpless. At the end of the day, if you are ignorant of the harmful manipulation or knowledgeable about it but powerless do anything; it makes little difference as the results are they same. Actually people who know what is happening are probably under additional stress because of the cognitive dissonance. Today I image all but most ignorant (or stupid) smokers in America know cigarettes are unhealthy. However they probably don't know just how aggressively they were targeted by marketers with a highly addictive product known to be lethal. Far more people will die in Chicago today from cigarette related causes than from gun violence. This is not widely known. I read the book Subliminal Seduction in high school, you probably read it too because it was popular. It explained how the media uses sex and violence to manipulate human behavior, citing specific examples from Playboy, Vogue, and Cosmopolitan magazines -- nothing has changed except these guy are SO MUCH BETTER at it, because they have machine learning, AI, and much more data at their disposal. They also have our ignorance on their side. Admittedly I'm closer to the subject because what I do with AALBC, so I understand if others view the subject differently.

@Cynique So now we are talking about the entire western world. Bottom line Cynique you and I know every well that if your daughters all showed up unable to identify the father of your grandchildren, because they were sleeping with a bunch of different dudes you would not be pleased -- and for good reason, because well should make judgements. If we don't make judgment our moral code has not meaning -- it has to be enforced. Cynique define "adult." Is it based upon age, say 21 or 18? Can and adult be based upon sexual maturity at say 13? This is an important issue because when you say "consenting adult" I'm not sure what you mean by that. Also the "western world" only makes of a small percentage of the planet's population -- and most of those people don't subscribe to the values you or I might hold so dear. Our attitudes dominant because, as the four-eyed gangsta say, America has big guns are we are willing to use them.

The video of the woman who spoke about giants is below. Unfortunately I did not capture our conversation about African Giants, she spoke about people being 20 feet tall. Sure the range of normal human height is quite large. Some of the more exaggerated height man has shown are hormonal (or something of the sort) problems that are often debilitating and those with that defect don't live very long. In other words it is abnormal. Still the presence of a race of human you were 15 taller or more that people talk about, seems more like myth than reality. But hey the Earth is very, very old and if it is proven to be true I would not be surprised. I do believe that African men knew a lot more thousands of years ago they we are taught -- as if human civilization began with the European. It is now commonly known today that when the European was in their Dark Ages, African civilization with far superior technology was already thousands of years old...

@Chevdove, in another post you mentioned other races of humans like the Denisovans. They were a difference race of people. But the so called white man and Black man are the same race, Sapiens -- despite the claims of racists. That is basically it.

@Chevdove you can run a search on our very protracted and contentious conversations on "race." But, in a nutshell, despite all of the science to the contrary @Pioneer1 believes that there are multiple human races based upon the different phenotypes you are familiar with. Like Michelle Alexander, I exhibited a prodigious level of restraint and patience despite a deluge of ignorance and an onslaught of misinformation. Like the more famous Michelle said, when Pioneer goes low you go high 🙂

@Cynique, So you would look sideways at a women who could not identify the father when it is done naturally, but f they have the money to go to a clinic an select from some anonymous donor that is AOK huh? I agree with your last statement, and if there are enough dissenters to the prevailing moral standards, in a reasonable society, to standards are subject to change. But then we have a slippery slope; at some point a line has to be drawn and still people will cross it. There are always those "bold" souls who will push any boundary created. There is a reason fundamentalists are so resistant to change and why the elimination of all rules leads to chaos. The trick is to find some imperfect middle ground. Asian people still use skin color against each other whether is is china, japan or india. Colorism is present in all of those cultures @Mel Hopkins

@Chevdove, please, share the sources of you evidence. I'll post the video of the women I spoke to about the Giants maybe she said something in it that might be useful.

@Cynique, allow me to clarify; I say that all people, but Black women in particular, are manipulated by slick marketers into behavior (including dress) that not only does not serve them but does them harm. Sure, self lower self esteem is often a consequence but worsened health is another. Cynique you know cigarettes are still heavily marketed in poor communities? Have you have noticed how much bigger Black women are today? Of course women have learned to accept the new normal, but being obese is not healthy, despite the hype to the contrary. No one reasonable will argue that high heals, even the 4" ones are healthy foot wear and you are the only one I've ever heard justify skin lightening cream (I guess you find what Michael Jackson did to himself perfectly normal). White men are affected too -- spending tons of money on remedies for baldness, pills to correct their limp penises, and lining up to pay a couple hundred dollars a ticket to see some Black athletes run with a ball down a field. Cynique it is all related. Please stop saying that I'm trying to tell women how to dress. More than anything I want women (indeed all of us) to be free of the manipulation, free of being made to consume things were not only don't need but hurt us. Thanks for the definition @Chevdove where did you grow up?

Hey @Mel Hopkins, I don't think I generalize across all people based upon my own experience. Can you give me an example, in this or any conversation, where I've lumped everyone into a group based upon my own experience? I do not believe all people are equally influenced. But to suggest that we all (or most of us) are exercising our own agency when all the data and evidence suggests otherwise is to ignoring the obvious. This is not based my personal experience. Why do you think Cambridge Analytica was put out of business? Why are hundred of billions spent on marketing? Why are people running around yelling "Dilly-dilly?" Why do you know the ingredients to a Big Mac? Why are millions of people slavishly tied to their mobile devices? Why did people vote for 45? Is this evidence our control or being controlled?

I did not say "ostracized," though in some communities this would indeed be the case. But come Cynique don't tell me you would not feel some kind of way if all your daughters showed up pregnant by men they could not say was the father was without a DNA test. Mel the "four-eyed gansta" I made it up. It is a play on a name I heard somewhere else. I just did a search and see the name is not unique...

@Cynique that is a good point. You'll noticed one of the kids "aced" the test by saying they were all equally smart. However, I'm sure the people who administered the test took these things into account and we only saw a small sample of the students who were questioned. We just don't have enough information to judge the validity of the study -- at least not without examining all of the data and having the skill set to assess it. I guess the fundamental question here is whether, or not, you believe that Eurocentric standards of beauty influence Black women. Seemingly all the studies and evidence in the world won't change you mind if you do not believe that it does. The notion that Nigerian's use of skim bleaching is merely a desire to achieve, "...skin color resembling beaming copper that shows off their face, instead dense onyx which absorbs it" Tells me exactly what you believe and how far you'll go to justify that belief to yourself.

This is fascinating! I'm actually leaning more to Pioneer than Cynique in this conversation -- sweet Baby Jesus LOL! Cynique the law is what is stopping @Pioneer1! First of all, polygamy is against the law and marriages are difficult to get out of. Besides the fact that despite what you wrote @Cynique out of wedlock births are not as widely accepted as you suggest. Large swaths of this country are far more morally conservative that you perhaps realize. The stigma still exists for many. I'm not suggesting I know what is "natural" or that humans are more suited to polygamy than monogamy as Pioneer suggest. He may be right; I don't know. What I do know however is that we need rules to function in a working society. Of course with rules of conduct there will always be people who can't comply. If there are enough of people who can't comply, good societies make an accommodation and change the rules. Now, the "get married to someone of the opposite sex, when you are a virgin, and never have sex with anyone else until your or your partner dies" seems unnatural to me. Further, is seems impractical given that virtually no one does this -- despite the fact that the Church teaches this and people feel guilty when that can't meet the standard and are doomed to Hell. It is no secret that human sexuality is dysfunctional in America for this and other reasons. Again, I don't know what is natural, but I suspect that multiple partners, throughout life may be more natural for men than life long monogamy. Of course some brothers can do this without a problem, shoot some Brothers don't ever have to have sex. Perhaps what is natural Cynique, as you suggest, is up to the individual. But individual sexual liberty are not the cultural norm. Women can file for divorce for infidelity and take 1/2 a man's stuff.

@Pioneer1 you asked Brother LOL!

...many Black people get shot merely by sitting in their homes. How Not to Get Shot: And Other Advice From White People by D.L. Hughley

It looks like a few more Brothers are manning up and exhibiting some forms of protest during the preseason. Let's see how thing go...

@Pioneer1 yeah that was the question I asked @Mel Hopkins too. Our book club is discussing Barracoon next month. It is a first hand account, related by Zora Neale Hurston, of a Brother who survived being kidnapped in Africa, the middle passage, and enslavement in Amerikkka. This is is a first hand account. The formerly enslaved African is of course a primary source, but if I understand Mel correctly, the book Zora Neal Hurston wrote relating the story is also a primary source. I also assume my relating the content of the book from memory would not be a primary source... is that right Mel. -------------- I recorded a video of a woman who talked about giant Africans (something I currently do not believe). I asked where she got this information and she told me I could find it on YouTube. I immediately thought about a video I previously saw on Youtube of a dig which showed the bones of a 20 foot skeleton. I immediately dismissed it as a hoax - because if this were true surely we would all already know about it.. right? If you frame of reference is that we are constantly being lied to and information is being withheld from you you are susceptible to believe anything... which is entirely understandable.

We have to rely to journalist to supply the information because we can not collect it ourselves in most cases. But if you listen carefully you can sometimes figure out if something makes sense. The unemployment numbers you hear touted all the time simply do not reflect "true" unemployment, simply because of the rules they use to count "employed" people ignored the chronically unemployed. The government tells us how they count the "unemployed" but the regular news readers never explain this, usually some activist gives you the real figures. @Pioneer1, if we supported our own news platforms we might be able to fund the journalists needed to collect the truth need for our empowerment. But we don't, so we rely on corporate run social media for our news.

@Pioneer1 is right @Cynique there is "nothing" natural about the social constructs we've created for ourselves -- lifelong monogamy is one of them, but these "rules" is what seperates of from wild animals... and I mean that in all seriousness.

I'm saddened and speechless.

"Great Grand PooBah of how black women are obligated to look" LOL! No, @Cynique I not telling, or care, how women, or anyone else for that matters dresses (save the generally accepted standards required in various situations -- for example I don't think boys pants should sagging in school). You mentioning that the video I posted reflected a study from "8 years" ago was a thinly veiled attempt to suggest that it was ancient history -- do you think anything has changed? OK lets leave the issue of Black people trying to to achieve a eurocentric standard of beauty alone -- indeed I'll even concede the point. Instead lets follow up on @Mel Hopkins's point of "european women trying to look like us." I agree with this indeed it is the foundation of my point -- white women are not immune to these pressures. We all know that white women are literally killing themselves trying to look like Black women with butt implants and the lip injections, etc. Again women, much more so that men, are manipulated by marketers into engaging in behavior as it relates to how they dress and it only causes them harm, or impovershes them. Mel, do you still go out for the evening with the 5" heels, but pack a pair of sensible flats, because you know your feet are going to be hurting before the evening is over? Women our age are now having foot surgery to repair the damage caused by stupid shoes some white guy invented to make money -- which women buy by the closet full. Elvis Presley used to get his hair poofed up to look like the Black blues men while Black blues men conked their hair to look like white people. Go figure. I can't believe y'all have never seen sisters with Blond wigs?! I'm going to Jackson MS next weekend and I guarantee I see some sisters with Blond hair and I'm taking photos! LOL! Mel I see you clearly have never set foot into one of ATL many strip clubs LOL! Mel, I also went to my local B&N to buy the new issue of Ebony that contains your articles, but they still had the July/August Issue on the stand I'll try later next week, Poets & Writers had Poet Terrance Hayes on the cover... I brought that.

That would be nice, but won't get him booted by the end of the year.