Which is more powerful belief, power or knowledge.

[Delano]

Does it change with scope: personally, familialy, associatively, communally, regionally, nationally, internationally and globally?

[frankster]

Belief is most likely more powerful than Knowledge....

Knowledge is the beginning of Power..

Power is what we are measuring so it is difficult to contextualize what you mean by  power in order to place its position.

 

3 hours ago, Delano said:

Does it change with scope: personally, familialy, associatively, communally, regionally, nationally, internationally and globally?

Yes it does.

Again you will have to further explain what you mean by each term vis a vis power.

[ProfD]

Power. It attracts knowledge and everything else. Exhibit A-dictatorships. 

[Delano]

6 hours ago, ProfD said:

Power. It attracts knowledge and everything else. Exhibit A-dictatorships. 

How do coups factor in that equation?

[Troy]

“Knowledge is power,” and “absolute power corrupts absolutely.”

 

This is what makes AI in the hands of capitalists so dangerous.

 

[ProfD]

2 hours ago, Delano said:

How do coups factor in that equation?

Most coup leaders and powerful people in general surround themselves with a mix of  smart people and sycophants. 

 

In recent times, America has had two POTUS and a VPOTUS who were not the most intelligent people yet they held positions running the most powerful country on the planet.

 

Karl Rove is a very smart man who would never be elected POTUS. So, he functioned as the brain for the POTUS.

1 hour ago, Troy said:

“Knowledge is power,” and “absolute power corrupts absolutely.”

Intelligence and power....Chinese leader  Xi Jinping is the personification of it.

[Troy]

Yeah the only social media company I half way try to post to is owned by the Chinese, so they are already manipulating me better than the Americans.

 

The way the Chinese government surveils their population is amazing and scary; it is on par with what American corporations do with us.

[ProfD]

America *allows* foreign companies to do business here because it's good for the global economy.

 

These super power countries are in collusion. Notice how radio silent they were this past weekend during the insurrection/protest in Russia.

 

The US was quick to put out a statement that we had nothing to do with instigating that situation yet we knew it was going to happen. 

 

A handful of powerful people control the lives of billions.

[Chevdove]

On 6/26/2023 at 4:17 PM, Delano said:

Does it change with scope: personally, familialy, associatively, communally, regionally, nationally, internationally and globally?

 

I think  KNOWLEDGE is the most powerful. 

 

Like the old saying goes, 'Knowledge is Power' as @ProfD also noted. 

 

If you have more knowledge then you will have better access to gainging power. And if you have knowledge then you will make better decisions on what to believe or not to believe.  Yes, I believe knowledge will change respectively to all of the above if you gain more knowledge but, it will not alter ones belief or ability to have power. 

 

If you gain more personal knowledge, and if you gain more knowledge about global issues and national issues, it will only increase your power and strengthen a belief system. Your belief system or values may change as you increase your knowledge, but again, knowledge is the more important of all. 

 

And furthermore, the ancient scriptures also take it to another level and state that after KNOWLEDGE, getting A BETTER UNDERSTANDING of Knowledge is even better. It goes on to say that KNOWLEDGE and UNDERSTANDING is more precious than rubies or any material wealth. I guess this is because by having knowledge and understanding, a person can know how to acquire wealth. 

 

For now, knowledge and understanding hasn't gotten me any great wealth! 

I guess I need to have some BELIEF; the belief in having patience? smh! 

 

[ProfD]

5 hours ago, Chevdove said:

Like the old saying goes, 'Knowledge is Power' as @ProfD also noted. 

 

Brotha Troy mentioned the old say that knowledge is power here in this thread first.  I quoted him.

 

Otherwise, I explained my rationale for power being more powerful than knowledge.  

[Delano]

If knowledge gives you more power than power. Then power rates higher. Using your example knowledge is the interim step to the goal of getting power.

So knowledge is lower than power. Which is better to have knowledge with no hope of getting power. Or having power with no hope of getting knowledge.

 

 

I would have past belief below knowledge but based on this conversation. I place belief over power, and power of knowledge.

 

A belief system can make you immune to power plays at least on the mental and emotional levels.

 

Power can be used to restrict access to knowledge

 

Plus it could also be that power is a perception. The powerful can reward you or punish you. Which is only effective if you value what they can give or remove  more than what you have inside.

[Mel Hopkins]

Belief, power, and knowledge are all things (nouns) that must be used to measure their effectiveness. None of those things is powerful without action.

The use of power, which comes from the use of knowledge, could be considered the most powerful. But power without work and elapsed time amounts to nothing. In fact, the equation for Power = Work/time. Same with one's belief - which reminds me of the verse "faith without works is dead."

So the same could be said of belief, albeit it is a temporary power. For example, if your belief is strong enough, it can change how you perceive reality and possibly defy natural physics. I'm thinking of those stories where an adrenaline surge allows the person to lift tons because they believed they had to save a life. 

 

So what's the most powerful? ACTION.

[ProfD]

9 minutes ago, Mel Hopkins said:

So what's the most powerful? ACTION.

Facts.  Welcome back to the gallery sista Mel.

[Mel Hopkins]

8 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Facts.  Welcome back to the gallery sista Mel.

Thank You, Brotha ProfD!  

[Pioneer1]

Which is more powerful belief, power or knowledge?
 

The answer lays within the question ITSELF.

POWER is obviously more "powerful" than belief or knowledge.
What is more powerful than power ITSELF?

 

 

 

frankster

Belief is most likely more powerful than Knowledge....

 

I feel that KNOWLEDGE is more powerful than mere BELIEF.

Why?

 

Let's say a police officer with his training and KNOWLEDGE of his gun and how to use it is challenged by a schizophrenic who BELIEVES he's a superhero and BELIEVES that he's bullet proof. 

Who do YOU think is going to win; the one with the KNOWLEDGE or the one with mere BELIEF?
 

[Chevdove]

On 6/28/2023 at 7:57 PM, Delano said:

Using your example knowledge is the interim step to the goal of getting power.

 

True.

 

On 6/28/2023 at 7:57 PM, Delano said:

Power can be used to restrict access to knowledge

 

Again, I can understand this too, especially when I think about an example such as America and its educational system! 

In this case, yes, power has restricted access to knowledge for so many people!

But then, I would suppose that some people today, have come to UNDERSTAND that power has done this and now are making ways to gain better knowledge over this kind of power. 

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Belief is most likely more powerful than Knowledge....

 

I feel that KNOWLEDGE is more powerful than mere BELIEF.

Why?

 

Let's say a police officer with his training and KNOWLEDGE of his gun and how to use it is challenged by a schizophrenic who BELIEVES he's a superhero and BELIEVES that he's bullet proof. 

Who do YOU think is going to win; the one with the KNOWLEDGE or the one with mere BELIEF?

 

Yes! 

 

 

Ah! My next thought is if power overcomes knowledge and you come to understand that you have no power over knowledge, then no matter what a person knows, it doesn't matter, if power is more supreme. 

 

So do you overcome power with power, or just be subdued?

Or do you WORK in the sense that work/with time and hopefully gain more power as @Mel Hopkins states?

I guess, another way to phrase my thoughts are, for example, 'the fruits of the Spirit'; patience, meaning in TIME, even if someone is more powerful but lacks KNOWLEDGE, then they will soon decrease and lose their power base and thereby, a person with more knowledge may increase. 

 

 

[Pioneer1]

5 hours ago, Chevdove said:

 

 

Ah! My next thought is if power overcomes knowledge and you come to understand that you have no power over knowledge, then no matter what a person knows, it doesn't matter, if power is more supreme. 

 

So do you overcome power with power, or just be subdued?

Or do you WORK in the sense that work/with time and hopefully gain more power as @Mel Hopkins states?

I guess, another way to phrase my thoughts are, for example, 'the fruits of the Spirit'; patience, meaning in TIME, even if someone is more powerful but lacks KNOWLEDGE, then they will soon decrease and lose their power base and thereby, a person with more knowledge may increase. 

 

 

Yes, you overcome power with MORE power.

But understand that it's not JUST knowledge that leads to power but as Mel states -ACTION, as well.
You have to ACT on what you know.

Knowledge + Action -> Power

If someone you love has a disease and you want the power to cure it, just opening up a book....reading it....and going back to bed...isn't likely to do the job.
You read the book and then ACT on the knowledge the book gave you, to cure the patient.

This is why students must become INTERNS before becoming doctors.
A period of time for action and doing after and while studying and gaining knowledge.

Like the old folks used to say, if you KNOW better than....what???....you should DO better.
Acting on knowledge will give you POWER.
 

[Chevdove]

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

But understand that it's not JUST knowledge that leads to power but as Mel states -ACTION, as well.
You have to ACT on what you know.

Knowledge + Action -> Power

 

@Pioneer1 You guys almost led me to change my first BELIEFS! 

Yes, I initially thought about the verse 'Faith without works are dead' in relation to POWER in relation to ACTION. 

BUT no, I will stick with my original statement, in that KNOWLEDGE is more powerful than both, POWER and BELIEFS. 

I check the ancient scriptures and came to this conclusion. 

 

 

 

 

On 6/28/2023 at 9:36 AM, ProfD said:

Brotha Troy mentioned the old say that knowledge is power here in this thread first.  I quoted him.

 

Otherwise, I explained my rationale for power being more powerful than knowledge.  

 

Okay. I thought it was you, @ProfD but yes, it was @Troy who made that comment.

And, that popular verse about 'Knowledge is Power' gave me a delayed thought. If this phrase is right then, I came to think that 

KNOWLEDGE is equal to POWER. So, this caused me to google the ancient scriptures, and what do you know!!! That is not scripture.

And, I know that you are the resident agnostic, so I understand you rationale, however, I still believe that KNOWLEDGE TRUMPS POWER, based on ancient prophets. 

 

 

ALL THROUGHOUT SCRIPTURE it makes it an ABSOLUTE TRUTH that there is no such thing as any human having power!

In other words, ALL WHO BELIEVE IN THE SUPREME BEING [i.e. God Almighty] believes that mankind has absolutely no power and can do nothing without the POWER OF GOD. So therefore, it you read all ancient scripture, it is redundant. There is no action that mankind can do to overpower anyone or anything except that that power comes from THE DIVINE POWER OF GOD. 

 

So all ancient scripture aligns KNOWLEDGE with UNDERSTANDING and WISDOM as a pathway to getting POWER. 

One scripture says that through understanding and knowledge God created. So even God was moved to ACTION from His knowledge and understanding. 

 

So, therefore, I will post just a few references, but again, this is redundant throughout the entire Bible. Man has no power but by God to overcome in war and to overcome the power of darkness, to overcome the prince of darkness, etc. 

 

[Chevdove]

ABOUT POWER:

 

[19] Every man also to whom God hath given riches and wealth,

and hath given him power to eat thereof, and to take his portion,

and to rejoice in his labour; this is the gift of God. QOH5.19

ECCLESIATES 5:19.

 

[8] There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit;

neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war;

neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it. QOH8.8.

ECCLESIATES 8:8.

 

[37] Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity,

but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin,

doeth well. 1CORINTHIANS 37:7.

 

*Mankind has WILLPOWER but not physical power to overcome any mankind save through divine power of God.

 

[2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world,

according to the prince of the power of the air,

the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:...

EPHESIANS 2.2.

 

[10] Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
EPHESIANS 6.10.

 

*the scriptures speak about the physical power of governments to cause oppression; the god of force, etc. But no mankind can overcome another forever. So for this reason, I still believe that KNOWLEDGE is more powerful than being powerful as an individual or even a group without wisdom and understanding on how to WORK towards overcoming power. 

 

KNOWLEDGE leads to power:

 

2Pet.1

[2] Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, [3] According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:... 2 PETER 1:2.

 

[19] The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.
[20] By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop down the dew. PROVERBS 3:19-20.

 

*So UNDERSTANDING AND KNOWLEDGE leads to ACTION.

 

 

[17] And thou say in thine heart,

My power and the might of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth.
[18] But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God:

for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth,

that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.
DEUTERONOMY 8:17, 18.

 

 

 

[Delano]

16 hours ago, Mel Hopkins said:

So what's the most powerful? ACTION.

What about introspection. And the stillness of meditation?

[ProfD]

@Chevdove, there have been many men throughout the history of mankind who have absolute power over people. 

 

I don't believe God gave those men power especially not the most evil and brutal of them. 

 

Those men took power regardless of their intelligence (knowledge) or lack thereof. 

 

Between violence, manipulation and exploitation, it does not take much power to control people even the *smart* ones.

[Delano]

3 hours ago, Chevdove said:

I check the ancient scriptures and came to this conclusion. 

Isn't this more akin to belief. The base that most people have including scientist is a set of beliefs about the world. If this were not true there would be no argument since it is self  evident. However I don't think\believe that there are no objective facts. If a fact changes over time then it is not objective. At least in my mind

2 hours ago, Chevdove said:

[2] Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, [3] According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:... 2 PETER 1:2.

Can you acquire this knowledge without first believing in God/

[Cynique]

As y'all may or may not know, I am fascinated with language and semantics which is why I pose the question:  Is knowledge synonymous with truth? 

[frankster]

13 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Which is more powerful belief, power or knowledge?
 

The answer lays within the question ITSELF.

POWER is obviously more "powerful" than belief or knowledge.
What is more powerful than power ITSELF?

Hence the reason why I could not contextualize.....

 

13 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

frankster

Belief is most likely more powerful than Knowledge....

 

I feel that KNOWLEDGE is more powerful than mere BELIEF.

Why?

 

Let's say a police officer with his training and KNOWLEDGE of his gun and how to use it is challenged by a schizophrenic who BELIEVES he's a superhero and BELIEVES that he's bullet proof. 

Who do YOU think is going to win; the one with the KNOWLEDGE or the one with mere BELIEF?

Knowledge Is being aware of facts.....Understanding is knowing how when and where to use/apply those Facts

For Knowledge to be or become  Power  two things are required Know How (Skill/Practical Knowledge) and Resources.

In your Example above Skill is training and resources is the gun.

 

Belief is comprise of two things Imagination and Will....Both of which are natural to all.

 

13 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

 

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, Cynique said:

As y'all may or may not know, I am fascinated with language and semantics which is why I pose the question:  Is knowledge synonymous with truth? 

I do not believe knowledge is synonymous with truth.  We *know* a bunch of sh8t that ain't true.

 

As you may or may not know...I'm always happy when you decide to do a drive-by and check in on the peanut gallery.

[Chevdove]

3 hours ago, ProfD said:

there have been many men throughout the history of mankind who have absolute power over people. 

 

I don't believe God gave those men power especially not the most evil and brutal of them. 

 

One again, @ProfD, I remember someone said something about that in this thread, earlier--ABSOLUTE Power.

But again, I'm part of this Peanut gallery world too  So, after thousands of years of mankind seeing the behavior of mankind, even when it comes to power,

I DON'T THINK ABSOLUTE POWER is forever over no mankind forever because after awhile, KNOWLEDGE increases and the one in power won't last because others will get stronger and overpower. 

 

However, ancient scripture does say that YES, God does give power to EVIL forces to overcome another evil force. I'm just saying that this is what ancient scriptures say. A long time ago, Black civilizatiions were better off than today and now a lot of Black people are definitely overpowered, but I just don't think it will be forever. BUT the power to overcome, as I have said before-- will have to come from divine power--because our ancestors opened the door and allowed WS to set up for a long time before they were overpowered. So, that would mean that hopefully KNOWLEDGE will be gained so that a repeat will not happen again.

 

3 hours ago, ProfD said:

Between violence, manipulation and exploitation, it does not take much power to control people even the *smart* ones.

 

TRUE, I guess that is why governments are battling now! 

 

 

2 hours ago, Delano said:

Isn't this more akin to belief.

 

I think belief is part of the process! @Delano Belief as you wrote earlier, may change with scope. But yes, I think KNOWLEDGE about some things can change too, but when it comes to all power, so far, and for thousands of years, it seems to me that KNOWLEDGE trumps everything when you compare the three--BELIEF, POWER, KNOWLEDGE. 

 

2 hours ago, Delano said:

Can you acquire this knowledge without first believing in God/

 

Yes, absolutely but after a while, the knowledge and history shows DIVINE KNOWLEDGE is not measurable. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Cynique said:

As y'all may or may not know, I am fascinated with language and semantics which is why I pose the question:  Is knowledge synonymous with truth? 

 

No, I don't think it is the same. Just as I thought that KNOWLEDGE = POWER, however, this thread has caused me to rethink this! 

[Delano]

6 hours ago, Cynique said:

As y'all may or may not know, I am fascinated with language and semantics which is why I pose the question:  Is knowledge synonymous with truth? 

What is known could be false or incomplete.

 

[Pioneer1]

Chev

 

You guys almost led me to change my first BELIEFS! 

Yes, I initially thought about the verse 'Faith without works are dead' in relation to POWER in relation to ACTION. 

 

Yes, actually that verse was one of the first things I thought of when I was typing out my response to you.
But I was going to hit you with that verse a little later...lol.

 

 

 

BUT no, I will stick with my original statement, in that KNOWLEDGE is more powerful than both, POWER and BELIEFS. 

 

How can knowledge be more powerful than power itself?

Power IS powerful.
 

-Just like the question how can hydrogen be more watery than water itself, when hydrogen is only a  COMPONENT of water?

How can knowledge be more powerful than power itself when it's only a COMPONENT of power?

Knowledge is POTENTIAL power.
....but it has to be mixed with ACTION to get to power.
But power itself is DIRECT power.

Unlike Kool Aid, no need to mix it up, it's already made.

 

 

 

 

Just as I thought that KNOWLEDGE = POWER, however, this thread has caused me to rethink this! 

 

Too often we grow up hearing these slogans and phrases and just accept them without questioning them.
But when you sit down and think about it, much of it makes no sense.

Another one is telling children you can grow up and be ANYTHING you want to be.
We know that's false, because we know a child can't grow up to become a comet or planet...but just feed them lines of bullshit anyway because they SOUND good, lol.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

frankster

 

 

Hence the reason why I could not contextualize.....

 

I'm glad we agree on this point!

 

 

 

Knowledge Is being aware of facts.....Understanding is knowing how when and where to use/apply those Facts

 

Correct.

 

 

 

For Knowledge to be or become  Power  two things are required Know How (Skill/Practical Knowledge) and Resources.

 

More facts!

 

 

 

In your Example above Skill is training and resources is the gun.

Belief is comprise of two things Imagination and Will....Both of which are natural to all.

 

Can't argue with any of this....lol.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ProfD

 

I do not believe knowledge is synonymous with truth.  We *know* a bunch of sh8t that ain't true.

But do we really "know" it...or do we just THINK we know it?
....which is why you put "know" in quotes...lol

 

Because if we really knew it, we wouldn't have been surprised to realize we were mistaken.

 

If I see a house with people sitting on the porch and cars in the driveway.....I'll ASSUME that house is occupied, but it could be vacant.
I thought I KNEW the house was occupied, but later on found out it was vacant.

I didn't KNOW the house was occupied, I just BELIEVED that it was.

I didn't have knowledge, I had a belief that I THOUGHT was knowledge.

[Chevdove]

44 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

How can knowledge be more powerful than power itself?

Power IS powerful.
 

-Just like the question how can hydrogen be more watery than water itself, when hydrogen is only a  COMPONENT of water?

How can knowledge be more powerful than power itself when it's only a COMPONENT of power?

Knowledge is POTENTIAL power.
....but it has to be mixed with ACTION to get to power.
But power itself is DIRECT power.

 

@Pioneer1 Not so. Even you have explained this! You gave examples too in how someone who is ignorant of another's KNOWLEDGE of the gun will win the conflict!!!

 

KNOWLEDGE is NOT potential power. KNOWLEDGE does NOT exactly equal power. KNOWLEDGE does not equal Power. 

Knowledge gives you what is needed in how to use power to your benefit or not. 

Knowledge and understanding comes first because an ignorant person can have power, but cannot overcome someone who has the knowledge in how to use more power to overcome. 

 

 

50 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Too often we grow up hearing these slogans and phrases and just accept them without questioning them.
But when you sit down and think about it, much of it makes no sense.

 

True!

 

 

 

IT'S AMAZING HOW PEOPLE CAN SENERGIZE and add to humanity as a group.

I taught as a Long Term Substitute Teacher for an ELA class [i.e. English, Language Arts] and was enriched.

I was ablt to go back and re-learn the benefit of Metaphors and Simile. So, I can understand why this 

phrase 'KNOWLEDGE IS POWER' has been viewed as correct. BUT IT IS NOT!

I finally realize this. 

 

Again, you have to have knowledge and understanding in order to KNOW how to proceed in any form of action in order to get results, otherwise, your actions will become a complete waste of time.

[Pioneer1]

27 minutes ago, Chevdove said:

 

@Pioneer1 Not so. Even you have explained this! You gave examples too in how someone who is ignorant of another's KNOWLEDGE of the gun will win the conflict!!!

 

KNOWLEDGE is NOT potential power. KNOWLEDGE does NOT exactly equal power. KNOWLEDGE does not equal Power. 

Knowledge gives you what is needed in how to use power to your benefit or not. 

Knowledge and understanding comes first because an ignorant person can have power, but cannot overcome someone who has the knowledge in how to use more power to overcome. 

 

IT'S AMAZING HOW PEOPLE CAN SENERGIZE and add to humanity as a group.

I taught as a Long Term Substitute Teacher for an ELA class [i.e. English, Language Arts] and was enriched.

I was ablt to go back and re-learn the benefit of Metaphors and Simile. So, I can understand why this 

phrase 'KNOWLEDGE IS POWER' has been viewed as correct. BUT IT IS NOT!

I finally realize this. 
 

 

 

Except for my assertion that knowledge is POTENTIAL power, I haven't made any of the above points you're arguing against.
My assertion is that POWER is more powerful than both knowledge and belief.

 

I can believe this, you have the spirit of a teacher....lol.

We used to LOVE substitute teachers when I was in school.
We'd do all kinds of mischievous stuff to them and clown all day in class because we could easily take advantage of most subs....LOL.

We had a substitute teacher in school who's butt was so fat that when kids would put a tack in her chair....she wouldn't even feel it.

We had another substitute teacher who was so skinny and ass was so boney that when the kids put a tack in HIS chair....he bent the damn tack!

 

 

 

[Chevdove]

3 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

We had a substitute teacher in school who's butt was so fat that when kids would put a tack in her chair....she wouldn't even feel it.

 

 

WELL, I can relate to being over weight!!! @Pioneer1

This reminds me of the film Sister Act.

But no matter, the students don't bother me with their behaviors and so, I was the 'go-to' Sub in the Middle schools all of the time.

If you have a problem with self esteem, then being a Middle school teacher is not the job to take. LOL.

These kids can be a challenge though, but I am not intimidated. So, even though, I sign up for easy classes, the admin always changes my choice and put me in the difficult behavioral classes! As soon as I pull up in the parking lot, I hear my name on the loud intercom outside, for me to come to the office because I know they switched me! Before I even get to the class, the kids start cheeering when they see me coming. LOL. 

But I'm tought though. People may not realize it, but kids at this age love structure.

My toughest challenge though is some of the young Black girls. They will try to challenge me, but soon they realize that is a bad decision. LOL. 

'Momma don't play dat!' I been to a HBCU and know how to come back. I've lived in projects, some of the worse.

FLASHBACK--I remember once, in college, when  'Loose Booty Gaby told me to jump off of the top of a pyramid'; she wanted me to hurt myself. Jealous Biatch. 

I climbed down slowly and walked right up to her  . . . 

Of course, those were the days when I was not over weight. So I was always the one to climb to the top.

I can't even fight, but I was going to try that day.

BUT the football players were in the gym that day, and they came running over, hollering! . . .

They confronted my cheerleading coach. So no, I don't have a problem teaching kids because, I don't have a problem with competing against other young girls needing the attention that I got when I was young. 

I give them the love and attention that I know they need. Young girls need mother figures, they don't need some old Black woman trying to compete with them.

 

 

23 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Except for my assertion that knowledge is POTENTIAL power, I haven't made any of the above points you're arguing against.
My assertion is that POWER is more powerful than both knowledge and belief.

 

 

But yes, back to the subject at hand, I think that the ancient humans have observed human behavior for thousands of years, therefore, 

KNOWLEDGE is necessary to have POWER, and MORE POWER than the enemy. Otherwise, you will always be overpowered. 

I am not relying on my own opinions here. 

 

 

 

[Pioneer1]

1 hour ago, Chevdove said:

 

But yes, back to the subject at hand, I think that the ancient humans have observed human behavior for thousands of years, therefore, 

KNOWLEDGE is necessary to have POWER, and MORE POWER than the enemy. Otherwise, you will always be overpowered. 

I am not relying on my own opinions here. 

 

 

But the question Delano asked was:  Which was more powerful  Power or Knowledge or Belief

Again, the answer is in the question because how can ANYTHING be more like a thing, than the thing ITSELF?

How can ANYTHING be more like power or more powerful than POWER ITSELF?


This is like asking which is the wettest.....water, rocks, or trees?
The answer should be OBVIOUS.
What can possibly be wetter than water itself?


Which is the sweetest....sugar, lemonade, or ice tea?
Again, the answer should be obvious.....how can any of those made FROM sugar be sweeter than sugar itself?

Likewise, if we ask which is more powerful.....power, knowledge, or belief.
The answer should be just as obvious.
How can knowledge or belief be more powerful than power ITSELF.

Infact, if we want to be absolutely SCIENTIFIC about it....you can't have too much KNOWLEDGE without POWER anyway.

It takes a certain amount of energy/power to operate the brain in which the knowledge is comprehended and retained.
No power to the brain.....the brain rots and the knowledge is lost.

It takes a certain amount of energy/power to operate a computer to store the knowledge.
No power to the computer....the knowledge remains dormant and useless on a microchip and all you get is a black screen until someone turns your electricity back on....lol.

 

"I done paid dat bill already.
Detroit Edison better stop playin' 
I got work to do!"

 

[Delano]

On 7/1/2023 at 1:28 AM, frankster said:

Hence the reason why I could not contextualize.

Not all powers are rpoweful. Omnipotence is all powerful. So power need not be fully potent it can be partial or weak. Instead of powerful you can substitute forceful.

It is was and is a difficult question for me to phrase.

 

[Delano]

So knowledge is lower than power. Which is better to have knowledge with no hope of getting power. Or having power with no hope of getting knowledge.

 

 

I would have past belief below knowledge but based on this conversation. I place belief over power, and power of knowledge.

 

A belief system can make you immune to power plays at least on the mental and emotional levels.

 

Power can be used to restrict access to knowledge

 

Plus it could also be that power is a perception. The powerful can reward you or punish you. Which is only effective if you value what they can give or remove  more than what you have inside.

 

Power beliefs and knowledge all have levels. George Foreman has more power than Muhammad Ali. But Ali had more knowledge about boxing.

 

 

In a fight technique and speed beat power. Bruce Lee Vs Chuck Norris.

[frankster]

5 hours ago, Delano said:

Not all powers are rpoweful. Omnipotence is all powerful. So power need not be fully potent it can be partial or weak. Instead of powerful you can substitute forceful.

It is was and is a difficult question for me to phrase.

 

True ....Power come in various strengths - also many types and forms

Power is basically the Ability(Skill/Exercise Control) to do....Make change 

Power uses Force to accomplish Change.

Omnipotence is either summation of all Powers or a Singular Power.

 

Are you asking which Form of power is the most effective...Political Social Economic etc?

 

[Delano]

3 hours ago, frankster said:

Are you asking which Form of power is the most effective...Political Social Economic etc?

No but you made me think. A leader has little to no power if his audience doesn't believe in him/her. Also if they have knowledge of the mess savoury elements of a leaders personality. The leader may again lose power.

 

The evimougies into a recession not because people make less money. But when they believe that things are slowing down.

 

 

All prices in the stock market are an aggregate of the beliefs of the buyers and sellers. Crowd behaviour and psychology are part of economics.

[Chevdove]

15 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

How can ANYTHING be more like power or more powerful than POWER ITSELF?

 

Okay @Pioneer1 Perhaps the question should have been phrased differently; 

Which of the three would be would come first, POWER, KNOWLEDGE or BELIEF?

 

But again, I based my answer on references and ancient script. So therefore, again all of the ancient scriptures places KNOWLEDGE first. 

KNOWLEDGE comes before POWER.

 

 

[Chevdove]

5 hours ago, Delano said:

 

 

A belief system can make you immune to power plays at least on the mental and emotional levels.

 

 

Interesting @Delano

I can understand your reasoning when it comes to a mental and emotional level. 

And I can understand that all three have levels; Power, Knowledge and Belief have certain levels. 

An Igonrant force can overpower knowledge and so when I think about it in this way, I think about extinction. Hopefully, mankind will not become extinct due to brute force and power. Nuclear War comes to my mind. The Desolation of Abomination. 

[Mel Hopkins]

On 6/30/2023 at 7:29 AM, Delano said:

What about introspection. And the stillness of meditation?

Action is the necessary component.

 

Nothing happens without active participation.  I can’t think of one thing alive or mechanical that doesn’t require input.  

 

Therefore between introspection (compare /contrast/ Know thy self) and meditation (intentional focus) mediation  is the most powerful. .

 

The one who achieves the goal of meditation is the most powerful.

[Pioneer1]

Chev

 

Perhaps the question should have been phrased differently; 

Which of the three would be would come first, POWER, KNOWLEDGE or BELIEF?

 

Yes.
Now that's a DIFFERENT question than the one Delano presented at the beginning of this thread.

But even if you ask that question, I would say POWER comes first even before knowledge.

 

Why?

Because you need a certain amount of power to THINK.
Power to hear, see, process and organize the information you receive into the knowledge that is thus acted upon.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Delano

 

Plus it could also be that power is a perception. The powerful can reward you or punish you. Which is only effective if you value what they can give or remove  more than what you have inside.

 

The powerful can also punish you with pain and incarceration....which doesn't rely on how much you value them or what they have to offer.

 

 

 

In a fight technique and speed beat power. Bruce Lee Vs Chuck Norris.

 

1. Although all speed has a certain amount of power to it, in a fight speed (theoretically) with no power is near useless.
A hummingbird flapping it's wings at so many beats per second can't overpower a hawk.
 

2. Using Bruce Lee is a poor example because he not only had speed but also had TREMENDOUS power!

 

 

[Chevdove]

7 hours ago, Mel Hopkins said:

Action is the necessary component.

 

...The one who achieves the goal of meditation is the most powerful.

 

Love this! 

 

4 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

But even if you ask that question, I would say POWER comes first even before knowledge.

 

Why?

Because you need a certain amount of power to THINK.
Power to hear, see, process and organize the information you receive into the knowledge that is thus acted upon.

 

Yes! I can understand this.  So, what I understand is that, this kind of power to think and to act is given to us as part of our being born humans and/or being created.

 

Power is given to all living things whether man or beast. So yes, I can see where power would come first, in this sense, because it is part of our creation. So after we have the power to rise from our beds, think, learn, eat, mature, then comes believing and knowledge which can increase. 

 

And by nature, we as humans have a certain amount of common sense in that we know certain things. 

But then as humans, and after having this innate power, we acquire belief principles and gain knowledge on how to use our power and how to increase our power. 

 

Yes. So my knowledge is nothing when it comes to the real truth in what comes first! It seems to me that there are levels to each. 

 

I like this proverb, when I think about this topic:

 

 [25] There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. PROVERBS 16.25.

 

 

[Delano]

12 hours ago, Mel Hopkins said:

The one who achieves the goal of meditation is the most powerful.

100% and the rest.

 

Thank You 

[Pioneer1]

Chev

So....lol....does that mean you agree with me that power comes first?

[Chevdove]

On 7/3/2023 at 8:32 AM, Pioneer1 said:

Chev

So....lol....does that mean you agree with me that power comes first?

 

@Pioneer1 I believe that there are levels so, it really depends. 

THE SUBJECT of BELIEF, POWER, KNOWLEDGE, FAITH, ACTION... is a huge one! I even found out that the subject is so large that there is even a specific term and is studied intensely on a college level and also goes all the way back to ancient times, especially with the Greeks. And, I also gave examples of action and come to realize that in terms of action and power, you have to have it to even rise from your bed or eat, etc. But again, it is based on perspective and there is an ongoing debate about it. 

 

I think about certain situations such as this; 

TIGERS are more powerful than lions, but lions are social and group together and in this way, they are the top--apex animals. 

But will a lion fight a tiger, I think so if they were challenged, and they would lose that fight if their brothers are not there to back them up. 

So therefore, tigers ae more powerful than lions. 

 

And then I also think about FERAL HUMANS. Today due to civilizations, we don't have to deal with this predicament, however, it still happens on rare occasions. 

Right here in America, there is a feral woman who is still alive today. Like her, there have been studies that show that if a human is not taught, then they will not be able to do anything. If they are not stimulated to learn, their brain will actually shrink and after a few years, they will never be able to achieve much. The one case I am referring to is about GENIE WILER. The family names have been changed to protect thier privacy but she was not taught for about 13 years.

 

So, she could not walk, talk, eat, chew food, etc. She was hidden away by her abusive father.

But one day, her mother took her with her to try and get help, because the mother was legally blind and she accidentally walked into a social services office.

So, they saw that the girl could not walk right. She hopped like a bunny and she looked like she was about 6 years old, but was in fact 14 years old.

So they reported the incident and this is how they found out.

So in this case, KNOWLEDGE would be a very crucial component to why this wild child could not do normal things that humans are taught to do. So as humans, we have potential, but there are levels to how we express our power and believes, etc. Anyway, I will try to put some links her about that girl. 

 

Top 5 Facts About Feral Children

https://www.watchmojo.com/articles/top-5-facts-about-feral-children

 

 

 

 

GENE WILEY, the actual girl 

 

Gene Wiley, after she learned a few words

 

 

 

 

 

So it could be viewed from this perspective in that action or power is the  necessary component because it comes from another human. So again, I see that there are levels to which one would be considered the one to come first. Some may sse this as still being action first while other experts may see it as being knowledge first. It depends. 

[frankster]

On 7/2/2023 at 2:30 AM, Delano said:

No but you made me think. A leader has little to no power if his audience doesn't believe in him/her. Also if they have knowledge of the mess savoury elements of a leaders personality. The leader may again lose power.

True....it is also good or better if the leader also believes in him/herself - confidence is transmissible.

 

On 7/2/2023 at 2:30 AM, Delano said:

The evimougies into a recession not because people make less money. But when they believe that things are slowing down.

Yes....it is said belief kills and cures.

 

On 7/2/2023 at 2:30 AM, Delano said:

All prices in the stock market are an aggregate of the beliefs of the buyers and sellers. Crowd behaviour and psychology are part of economics.

True

There are also those who uses this information to manipulate the minds of the masses so as to influence Economics and  Politics - Thru Mass Media.

[Chevdove]

Oh Wow! I've read some comments in this thread about the power of BELIEF and I've been turning this over in my head!

Of course, this would indeed be of great interest to me because I am a Christian and BELIEVE in the verse JOHN 3:16. However, as I did in the previous reference, I also searched from other perspectives as well. I can see why some answers would place BELIEF ahead of KNOWLEDGE. I am in limbo for a minute! 

 

Here are some of my thoughts on the matter:

In terms of our earliest human origins, I think,

'How can you believe in anything, when you know nothing at birth?'

'How can you believe in anything, when you know nothing at the time of Creation?

'How do you know if you are believing in --a false belief--without something to base it on?'

 

So now, I am thinking that is why God sent His son, and marked him by astronomy, as a confirmation and so that we might KNOW. We might have KNOWLEDGE.  So, there had to be witnesses that could record.  

 

So, I think that concepts such as faith, trust, hope, and belief are all directly connected to knowledge and power; Willpower, maybe. Maybe part of why this 'belief' issue has been on my mind today is because I have been very depressed about something personal going on in my life and I'm desperate and exhausted for the inner pain, so much so, that I could not sleep. But then, due to exhaustion, I was getting ready to lay down, but guess what!? I GOT A RELIEF MESSAGE SENT TO ME and I am completely in shock--relieved, at least for now. I wonder if anyone has been through this kind of hell. I've been there before and I tell you, it is pure hell. I would not say that I gave up my beliefs, however, my spirit completely died. Had it not been for others, I know i would not be at peace at all. I completely gave up hope on mankind, and again, I still believe in a higher power though. So now, I am going to drop some secular references from a collegiate and professional point-of-view. 

 

[Chevdove]

Which is more important knowledge or belief?

Even though Kant admits that knowledge is prior, and superior, to belief as well as opinion in their purely epistemic dimension, he nevertheless ends up holding that belief in the more significant sense of a 'postulate,' is more important than knowledge.

What are the four phases of knowledge?

The results indicate that the KM process consists of four stages: acquisition, storage, distribution, and use of knowledge.

Knowledge Management Process: a theoretical-conceptual research

 https://journals.openedition.org/ref/895#:~:text=%E2%80%9D%20(F%C3%BCrwahrhalten).-,Even%20though%20Kant%20admits%20that%20knowledge%20is%20prior%2C%20and%20superior,is%20more%20important%20than%20knowledge

 

Knowledge and Belief are two words that are often confused when it comes to their meanings and connotations when strictly speaking, there is some difference between them. Knowledge is all about information. Knowledge is what we gain through experience and experimentation. It derives from the realities of the world around us. As the world progresses, various sources of knowledge have also expanded. On the other hand, belief is all about conviction. This is mostly visible in religious settings, where the ideals are not tested but merely believed. Tis is the main difference between the two words. This article attempts to clarify the meaning between the two words while highlighting the differences.

https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-knowledge-and-vs-belief/

 

 

“Believing is not the same as knowing. Believing is second-hand knowledge, whereas knowing is first-hand experience. When your action comes from a level of belief, there is fear, doubt and restlessness behind such action. When your action comes from a level of knowing, there is conviction, certainty and calm behind such action.”
― Yogi Kanna, Nirvana : Absolute Freedom

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/belief-vs-knowledge

 

 

4.5. Summary The tools that cognitive scientists often appeal to when investigating which aspects of our

minds are the most basic all suggest that it is the capacity to represent knowledge – not belief –

that is the more basic component of theory of mind. Primate work indicates that our ancestors

may have begun representing knowledge states before evolving the capacity to think about

beliefs. Studies of human infant theory of mind find that infants begin to track what others know

before tracking what others believe, and young children can talk about and make predictions

using knowledge representations long before belief representations. Tests of automatic theory of

mind in adult humans suggest that representations of knowledge may happen more automatically

and effortlessly than representations of beliefs. And evidence from patient populations

demonstrates that an ability to represent beliefs can be disrupted while knowledge attributions

remain comparatively preserved. 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/344203506_Knowledge_before_Belief

 

 

Epistemologists study the nature, origin, and scope of knowledge, epistemic justification, the rationality of belief, and various related issues. Debates in epistemology are generally clustered around four core areas:^[2][3] [4] …

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pioneer1]

Chev

Those videos you posted about that feral White girl was weird as hell.....lol.

I searched through the videos trying to figure out, what happened to her.
Are there any videos of her now as an adult?
She was a child back in the 70s so she shouldn't be very old.

[Delano]

On 7/5/2023 at 3:47 PM, Chevdove said:

I think about certain situations such as this; 

TIGERS are more powerful than lions, but lions are social and group together and in this way, they are the top--apex animals. 

But will a lion fight a tiger, I think so if they were challenged, and they would lose that fight if their brothers are not there to back them up. 

So therefore, tigers ae more powerful than lions. 

A tiger is stronger than a lion but in a fught the lion is more likely to win. A tiger will rear up on its hind legs and attack with both front paws. Lions only use on paw and even though it isn't as strong of a strike it conserves energy. In addition the mane around a lions head protects it's throat.

[Pioneer1]

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