Acquitted NYC Subway Killer on a Hero Tour

[ProfD]

Recently acquitted NYC subway killer will be one of POTUS OJ'S invited guests at the Army-Navy football game today. 

 

Like Zimmerman and Rittenhouse before him, Penny will be paraded as a hero and he will become well off financially for putting in work as a race soldier. 

[richardmurray]

add Trisha Meili it is not an uncommon situation

[Chevdove]

Are you serious?

He was acquitted?

 

 

[richardmurray]

@Chevdove 

not a shock remember peers in nyc acquitted the murderer of eric garner who died by chokehold, acquitted others whites beforehand who murdered blacks, why should this be different now

[KENNETH]

There's no outcry by black people or anyone else because the white man did the dirty work. He made a sick person who annoyed and made us uncomfortable go away. It's very difficult dealing with mentally sick people especially if they are unwilling or too often unable to get help. A lot of us are struggling with our own issues and trying to survive economically. We don't want or need the added burden that comes with family or friends who mentally sick. 

 

The simple fact is we are selfish. That's a sin. Yes I said it. It's a sin according to God's word the Bible. The wages of sin is death. They could have ignored the man or restrained him without killing him. However they were selfish and vain only concerned with themselves so instead they killed him.

 

You know what I'm a sinner too because I wrongly think somebody should kill that white man for what he did because once again the criminal justice system has failed us.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chevdove]

On 12/15/2024 at 7:19 PM, richardmurray said:

not a shock remember peers in nyc acquitted the murderer of eric garner who died by chokehold, acquitted others whites beforehand who murdered blacks, why should this be different now

 

I believe that is the plan, to do it more and more so that we will view it as being commonplace. But, nevertheless, every time this happens, it is horrific.

No one, no matter what color or race we are, should view this as being the norm. 

 

 

[Pioneer1]

Jordan Neely didn't touch anybody.
The reports were he was just acting crazy on the train, but didn't physically harm anybody.

Some crazy illegal immigrant burned a woman up alive on the subway not too long ago.

So where was a "Daniel Penny", when you actually needed one?

If we couldn't find a "Daniel Penny" to save that woman from being burned alive, couldn't we have atleast find one to wrestle down and detain this bastid who was standing there actually FANNING THE FLAMES of the woman while she was burning???

[ProfD]

44 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Some crazy illegal immigrant burned a woman up alive on the subway not too long ago.

So where was a "Daniel Penny", when you actually needed one?

I'm going out on a limb here but maybe their bat signal and super-powers don't work on non-Black people.

[Pioneer1]

The media just identified the NAME of the woman who was burned.....Debrina Kawaam.
I haven't seen a picture of her yet though so I'm not sure what race she is.

I haven't heard Trump or any other right-winger talk about this disturbing incident despite the suspect being an illegal immigrant.

The fact that an innocent woman can be set on fire by an illegal immigrant but THAT....of all things...doesn't inspire the anger of the MAGA crowd makes me willing to wager a hefty sum of money on what race that woman may actually be.

[ProfD]

18 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

The media just identified the NAME of the woman who was burned.....Debrina Kawaam.
I haven't seen a picture of her yet though so I'm not sure what race she is.

I figured she was a Black woman when they 1) stood around and let her burn and 2) didn't release her name within 24 hours.

[Pioneer1]

11 minutes ago, ProfD said:

I figured she was a Black woman when they 1) stood around and let her burn and 2) didn't release her name within 24 hours.

It's so hard to believe that actually happened.
Not that it couldn't.
It's something you don't want to believe a human being could do to another while others stand around doing NOTHING to stop it.

 

[Troy]

Sometimes I listen to a right-wing local NYC radio station WABC -- you can stream it from anywhere.  There is an on-air personality named Curtis Sliwa who run a vigilante group call ed the Guardian Agents that patrolled trains that ran through the toughest neighborhoods.  I remember seeing him do this as a kid.  Curtis says they are back patrolling the subway system and the NYC Subways is a bad as he has ever seen it!  That is a huge statement coming from him, because NYC subways used to be hellacious.  

 

16 hours ago, ProfD said:

2) didn't release her name within 24 hours.

 

She was burned beyond recognition, so it took time to id the victim.

 

16 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

...or any other right-winger talk about this disturbing incident despite the suspect being an illegal immigrant.

 

Statements like this are always problematic.  The implication that right-wingers are not talking about this because you have not heard it is not reasonable.  The right-wingers in NYC are absolutely talking about it.

 

17 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Jordan Neely didn't touch anybody.

 

I found it difficult to understand how a jury could let the guy to killed Jordan Neely off scot-free.  Apparently, Jordan was already known to authorities and was on a list of "top 50" list NYC subway offenders.  He had 42 arrests in the past 8 years including an outstanding warrant for assault.  I don't know if you have ever been on a NYC subway when a young man was behaving erratically or in a threatening manner. I bet most people were happy to see him stopped -- though I'm sure most did not want to see him killed!

 

Neely desperately needed help, and NYC is failing in its responsibility in helping the mentally ill.

 

I was on the NYC subway late one night and an entire car was filled with bums (that what we called them back in the day) sleeping on the seats -- there was nowhere to sit down. NYC has to deal with the homeless which also means they need to deal with the price of housing...

 

Botton line if you are poor, NYC is not the place for you.  You are not wanted there and they are making no accommodations for you, period.

[Pioneer1]

Cities like New York, San Francisco, and Boston are actually better for homeless people than most other cities in America because they tend to be 24 hours.

 

-The subways are almost always running so you always have a warm place to sleep or hide out in.
-Some building or establishment is almost always open for you to hide out or hang out in.

-Plenty of people to beg from.

-And because of the large crowds, you don't stick out like a sore thumb.

 

While it may not be perfect, it beats being homeless in a cold desolate place like North Dakota or Wyoming.
 

[richardmurray]

@Pioneer1 + @ProfD

good points , but I found the following image, is supposedly of Debrina Kawam

citation 

https://nypost.com/2025/01/01/us-news/debrina-kawam-photo-of-nyc-subway-passenger-burned-to-death/

My issues are 

1) the whole mental illness issue is a masquerade for an old media narrative that many in the black populace have claimed to other black people for over one hundred and fifty years. You guys know the history. MAny black people called NAt Turner crazy. I can tell you for certain that many Black people , especially from the damn black church , called the panthers for self defense mentally ill, malcolm suggesting violent retribution mentally ill. The mental illness claim from black people to black people is as old as the end of the war between the states to modernity. Do some black people in the usa have a mental imbalance? yes, as do some whites. But most black people cited as mentally ill have simple come to violent conclusions, and those blacks who have not, for years have championed the idea of getting other black peoples minds set to right. 

2) this is a white woman? If any black person questions the truth of whites+ black allies of white treating blacks uniquely in a negative way amongst the non white european populaces, the people of color, here is the proof. IF Zapeta calil was black, not mestizo, Eric Adams would be championing his mental illness claim to high heaven, not immigration. And my support is mass shootings. 99% of all mass shootings are non blacks, and you never hear mental illness claims, especially from the black elected officials, black church or black people in forums like this that talk about mental illness so much. The MAGA people come from a tradition of whites complaining about blacks, not whites complaining about non blacks. White asian/mestizos/other whites are all free of their mob ways. 

 

 

@Pioneer1 

15 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Cities like New York, San Francisco, and Boston are actually better for homeless people than most other cities in America because they tend to be 24 hours.

 

-The subways are almost always running so you always have a warm place to sleep or hide out in.
-Some building or establishment is almost always open for you to hide out or hang out in.

-Plenty of people to beg from.

-And because of the large crowds, you don't stick out like a sore thumb.

 

While it may not be perfect, it beats being homeless in a cold desolate place like North Dakota or Wyoming.

well said , the idea that being financially poor is better outside cities is an insult. Small towns can not help the horde of homeless who have always existed in NYC, and have no ways to assist.

The people who can leave NYC effectively are not the homeless, not the people of the street, not the people in projects. I know quite a few people who have left nyc from guiliani to now, all black, but none were homeless, none lived on the street. Working poor, yeah ok. Retiree yeah ok. Some people who could afford but just left, yeah ok. All of them lived in a tenement or brownstone or co op in some fashion. 

Yes, NYC is becoming pricier but, in defense, NYC was always congested with poor. again, i have alot of problems with people who have lived in NYC and tend to speak of it falsely. 

NYC has a density over three times great as california while having a smaller city boundary.

I argue NYC has always been the safest city in the usa, the problem is that, it's populace is so big, the human reality means you get negative incidents, but these are always uncommon things. 

And for the record I know the subway, i have definitely seen homeless people that look , unfortunate in many levels. But I never felt fear while I also have seen many people on the subway act like they can't handle the existence of said homeless people. And I have always said, and i repeat, if you live in a big city and you don't comprehend a big city is not a town it is not a suburb it is not a place where you can live like you own a house on your own land next to a village then you, not the homeless, need to leave the city. Silwa is a dramatist. NYC had more violence in times past than the 1970s. People like silwa will never admit that nyc's problems in the 1970s all stemmed from the government itself, starting with the nypd. The NYPD flooded all majority non white european regions in the city with drugs, getting a financial cut of it all , while complaining about the condition of said regions while NYC was defunding all the infrastructure programs that existed when said regions were mostly white european, from repairing projects to funding public schools. And even with the NYC government manuacturing instability, woe, harm, negativity, the city was still mostly peaceful, a testament to the human, not churches, not the silvwa's of the world. Eric Adams himself talks about the condition of the community so much but he wasn't beaten by homeless people or drug dealers, he was beaten up by law enforcement. 

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

While it may not be perfect, it beats being homeless in a cold desolate place like North Dakota or Wyoming.

A person wouldn't be homeless in those states. Then again, they wouldn't allow non-white, poor to flood it either.

 

8 minutes ago, richardmurray said:

good points , but I found the following image, is supposedly of Debrina Kawam...

The plot thickens if this woman is truly white. They will use her to make the case for deporting illegal immigants.

 

8 minutes ago, richardmurray said:

Silwa is a dramatist.

That guy has gone from running around with the Guardian Angels to running for public office.

 

We'll find out soom enough how this subway murder is prosecuted compared to the last one.

[richardmurray]

@ProfD

we will see.

Just in case you didn't read this is from the new york post article

 

Kawam, who was originally from Toms River, said her memories at the public school were participating in freshman and sophomore cheerleading and that her secret ambition was “to party forever.”

She signed off her biography thanking her parents “for everything.” 

Kawam was one of three students who earned the superlative of “million dollar smile” and “most punk,” according to the outlet.

...

Toms River resident Olga Corpion had purchased the house Kawam’s mother once lived in and said she met Debrina shortly after Corpion moved into the neighborhood in May.

“She said, ‘Hi, my name is Debrina, and I want to go see my mom. My mother lives here. I want to talk to her,’” Corpion told The Post.

“She looked like she was in her 50s, so right away I assumed she was not well, because she didn’t know her mom had moved.

“I’m in shock that she was standing right here and then I found out she died so horribly.”

 

I am not sure whites will use this as a rallying call to blockade illegal immigrants  because the white populace today in the usa has so many immigrants. The immigration act led to a growth in immigrant populaces in the black /white/first peoples populaces that we see playing out today. 

Schrumpf has white asians/white arabs/white latinos/white women/white men all these people are used to abusing blacks in the usa/negros in latin america/kalo in india/aswad in muslim lands/kokuchin in east asia, but a non black attacking a white is treated as an individual crime in said regions. 

 

The parts of her identity that the new york post proclaims so loudly with love I find interesting as I have heard offline black people, especially elders or church folk or black donkeys or elephants, speak so ill to other black people for. 

 

her secret ambition was to party forever. 

Wow, I have never seen the masses of the black populace in the usa ever support a black person with such a statement. Damn non blacks, black people tend to never be supportive of black people with such a statement.

 

And funny how the white man they spoke to said she was ill but not mentally ill again, funny how black people are the most willing to call their own mentally ill in the usa. 

 

But as you said, we will see where this leads. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pioneer1]

richardmurray

 

 

Yeah, I saw that picture earlier today when I googled the name.

A White woman from New Jersey.
Umph....

As far as mental illnesses go.
Crazy is real.

 

A lot of people tend to conflate extreme or eccentric behavior with being crazy because it's out of the norm or ordinary.
However the actual definition of crazy is merely an extreme or severe form of mental illness where you're detached from this Reality.

 

 

 

 

 

 

ProfD

 

 

A person wouldn't be homeless in those states. 

 

Yes, and no.

Most people living in those type of states who lose everything and know they're going to be out on the street...err uh...road...corn field....usually make plans to take the next Greyhound the fuck OUT of that area to the nearest major city to live that type of life.

 

Besides going to jail and being taken care of in there, there is nothing else there for them without money, a home, and their own transportation.

In places like Wyoming and Idaho, you not only need your own place to stay but you also GOTTA have a car.
You can't rely on a subway or bus system to get you back and forth.

 

So a person facing homelessness...

If they were in...say....Wyoming...they'd find a way to get to California or Portland or Seattle to bum around in.

If they were in the Dakotas, they'd most likely make their way to Chicago or possibly even Minneapolis to bum around in and dream about some day getting back on their feet and going back home.

[Troy]

 @richardmurray Are you equating public sentiment towards the Panthers and Nat Turner with Neeley?!  Are you equating the public's reaction to the activities of Neely with the likes of an Angela Davis or Eldride Cleaver?!  Are you suggesting that Neely did not need mental help and are equating the motivation for his actions with those of Nat Turner?  

 

4 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

While it may not be perfect, it beats being homeless in a cold desolate place like North Dakota or Wyoming.

 

I suspect places like ND and WY do not have the high level of homelessness as places like NYC.  But yeah. large cities have advantages you could grow fat living off the food that is discarded.  But the tradeoff is being homeless in NYC is very dangerous -- especially if you are mentally ill.

 

 

2 hours ago, richardmurray said:

i have alot of problems with people who have lived in NYC and tend to speak of it falsely. 

 

Is this statement directed at me?

 

2 hours ago, richardmurray said:

I argue NYC has always been the safest city in the usa,

 

Richard this statement is false on its face.  The data tells a different story, and NYC's crime stats tell a better story than what actually happens on the street than what the data says, due to crime being under reported and miscategorized by the police. You say you lived in NYC in the 1970's if you lived in Harlem you have to know many women who were mugged during that decade and the next.  I also be surprised if you did not know someone who was murdered between 1970 and 1990. 

[ProfD]

2 hours ago, richardmurray said:

And funny how the white man they spoke to said she was ill...

Olga reads like a woman's name.  Looked ill is synonymous with falling on hard times. 

 

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

Yes, and no.

Most people living in those type of states who lose everything and know they're going to be out on the street...err uh...road...corn field....

 

Those states have enough shelters and missions to house the homeless.  Nobody has to live on the streets there.

 

Those states won't have any rowdy azz non-white folks either.  Dysfunctional white folks will be well taken care of there.

 

In fact, if I was unhoused, I'd make my way to one of those states instead of a crowded major city.

[Pioneer1]

ProfD

Based on what I've seen, some of those "red states" like Wyoming and Idaho and the Dakotas have some of the poorest shittiest government assistance programs available to those in need.
They are so Conservative and traditionalist that they feel like people should rely on the local churches or their families for assistance if they "fall on hard times".
Which means they don't even prepare for lifetime or long term homelessness of the type you see in major cities like New York or D.C. or L.A.
There idea of "hard times" is some White man with a house and truck who loses his job for 8 months and has to rely on the local church for food or a couple times to keep his lights on. 
Not entire droves of homeless people and meth addicts living in tents.

Like you said, the demographic is mostly White...though I might add a huge number of the population in most of those areas are illegal Latino immigrants who stay in shacks out in the rural areas and keep to themselves like slave to do the hard labor.
They exist by the MILLIONS in those little rural corn-field counties.

Both groups would rather have as little to do with the government as possible and tend to rely on family and local churches for their needs.

[ProfD]

55 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Which means they don't even prepare for lifetime or long term homelessness of the type you see in major cities like New York or D.C. or L.A.

America shouldn't have people who are homeless long-term or lifetime.

 

55 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Not entire droves of homeless people and meth addicts living in tents.

Homelessness due to mental illness and/or drug addiction can be dealt with in a different manner. 

 

At one point in time, America had asylums for people who couldn't take care of themselves. 

 

Back in the 1990s, asylums were closed down and institutionalized people were either transferred to prisons or thrown out on the streets to survive.

 

Homelessness, drug addiction and mental health, etc., feed capitalism by way of providing jobs in social services, law enforcement, judicial system, etc. 

[Troy]

11 minutes ago, ProfD said:

At one point in time, America had asylums for people who couldn't take care of themselves. 

 

Back in the 1990s, asylums were closed down and institutionalized people were either transferred to prisons or thrown out on the streets to survive.

 

There was an infamous one in NYC called Willowbrook where the patients were essentially tortured -- a house pf horrors.  Geraldo Rivera made his career from an expose on that institutions.  It is still hard to watch.

 

 

[ProfD]

9 minutes ago, Troy said:

 

There was an infamous one in NYC called Willowbrook where the patients were essentially tortured -- a house pf horrors.  Geraldo Rivera made his career from an expose on that institutions.  It is still hard to watch.

Unfortunately, many of the institutions were poorly run.  Putting mentally ill folks on the streets is a disservice too.

 

Again, it's makes no sense that a highly developed country like America has a *problem* taking care of the people who need it the most.

 

Capitalism is ruthless.

[richardmurray]

@Troy

Ok I will go question by question 

21 hours ago, Troy said:

Are you equating public sentiment towards the Panthers and Nat Turner with Neeley?! 

No on two counts. one i don't view the sentiment of the black populace in the usa in congruence to the sentiment of the non black populace. I restate, For me, the usa never had and doesn't have a singular public sentiment. It has various sentiments, and the one from the non black tends to be touted as representing the whole. 

The second count is the black populaces condition to each of the stated: panthers for self defense, Nat turner, neely are not equal. Nat Turner was at a time when most in the black public in the usa were enslaved to whites in a straight physical way while oppressed as illiterate, blockaded from opportunity, terrorized by the legal system citizens. During the Black PAnthers for self defense the black public in the usa went through the initial molding of individual achievement by blacks in white spaces while communal destruction of blacks by white bureuacraices. A trend that would continue and persist to this day in the Descended of enslaved branch of the black public in the usa.  During Neelys time the quantity or black immigrants, in the black public in the usa and the perspective to the usa most of them share creates a modern black public in the usa that has embraced the idea of the human citizen in the black populace itself. I don't know if you saw local new york city news, but the black woman who was in the train car when the murder of neely occurred boasted how she felt so endangered, more than the other non blacks giving testimony. [to a later question i had an offline multilog about that] The black public in the usa is not the same through the times you mentioned in important ways in my eyes and sequentially their sentiments can not be  equal in my eyes, beyond rhetoric or advertised claims. 

21 hours ago, Troy said:

Are you equating the public's reaction to the activities of Neely with the likes of an Angela Davis or Eldride Cleaver?! 

no

21 hours ago, Troy said:

Are you suggesting that Neely did not need mental help and are equating the motivation for his actions with those of Nat Turner?  

I think neely was angry at his personal state in this oppositional legal space, ala the usa,  plus i think neely needed financial help. Being upset at the condition of one's black individual self or the black populace while considering white power while being in need financially in general is the most common condition for black people from the thirteen colonies to today in the usa.  I should had asked you what you meant by mental health. Some argue giving someone a hug is mentally healthy. Some argue talking to someone civilly is mental health so depending on how you define mental health i will probably have to write a correction. But I don't know what you mean but I answered anyway.

21 hours ago, Troy said:

Is this statement directed at me?

Any black person who was raised in a big city who feels that way, as I stated earlier i recall the black woman who championed her fear in local news and i first felt it toward her while thinking of other black folk, offline connections, who I have multilogged the issue of relating to other blacks in urban environments with.  I apologize for not having the link but I recall in this forum a post where this was discussed between members of aalbc and i stood apart from you and pioneer plus others on this issue. 

21 hours ago, Troy said:

Richard this statement is false on its face.  The data tells a different story, and NYC's crime stats tell a better story than what actually happens on the street than what the data says, due to crime being under reported and miscategorized by the police. You say you lived in NYC in the 1970's if you lived in Harlem you have to know many women who were mugged during that decade and the next.  I also be surprised if you did not know someone who was murdered between 1970 and 1990. 

Well... to be blunt, in this forum, we all discussed this already. I know black people who were murdered by cops form 1970s to 1990s and were not in illegal activity. But no one personal was murdered by another citizen that i know of. and in harlem. Harmed yes. Attacked? yes. but not murdered. Now I hear of murders every day. I think  Pioneer 1 was the one who debated with me, we discussed this issue of crime in the black populace of nyc, he stands firmly aside you. If it wasn't pioneer i apologize. It may have been Profd or someone else. Forgive me. But, I recall i stood alone on my philosophical side of the fence to you Troy plus the majority of the activie forum members in the post in the past. 

If you ask me, do more people die in nyc than any small town or city in the usa? I will answer yes. 

If you ask me, Do some large cities of comparative size around the world have less illegal acts or injuries between residents or citizens than nyc? yes, though people rarely input the fact that the development of nyc has always been of dysfunctional congestion and i speak from manahatta with the lenape and the white europeans coming in. NYC has a heritage of accepting large populaces pushed into it and then people in nyc complaining that the dysfunctional compression leads to negativity. 

 

To the street, we all talked about this. I wish i could remember thename of the book plus the book reviewer for a new york times book review;  a black man who was raised in east harlem who boasted how his black church going relatives  came out with guns everyday and i know black people offline who lived in that area and said it wasn't like that. Who called the reviewer or author a liar on their position. 

What is my point? I am not trying to regale. I have a friend who lost someone they know to black on black violence in the city. So I can accept that , maybe, most black people in nyc or big city black populaces live in hell and black people like me are a minority maybe even extreme minority but I am not going to lie and suggest my experiences amongst black people in nyc were akin to a supposed majority. 

 

@ProfD

20 hours ago, ProfD said:

Again, it's makes no sense that a highly developed country like America has a *problem* taking care of the people who need it the most.

 

Capitalism is ruthless.

Why not? see the one word i didn't see anyone use , including me, was slavery. 

As a lover of history the odd thing about slavery in the usa, is, the heritage of slavery in the usa is older than the usa. the heritage of slavery in the usa is stronger than fisal capitalism or individual liberty. and yet, so few black people use the word slavery, including me it seems. 

Maybe if black people start from slavery as the base heritage in the usa then all crimes, injuries to others, makes sense. Capitalism can be ruthless. But Slavery is a greater sinner. And Slavery is the heart of the usa, at least historically. The first peoples in the usa on the east coast were enslaved out of existence alot of times. 

i think the usa's inequal treatments, its tribalism, make perfect sense when you embrace slavery as the core statian ideal, not individualism, not fiscal capitalism, slavery. 

Slavery doesn't require fiscal capitalism or communism or monarchism. Slavery doesn't require individual rights or collective allowances. 

And wherever slavery exist you have the enslavers who abuse but you also have the enslaved who are angry...And  I will end with one clear point, even in the time of the roman empire it was clear that the queen of the gauls could be a free woman while the gaulish peoples are completely enslaved. so having black billionaires or presidents doesn't mean the larger black populace isn't enslaved, in some fashion. 

@Pioneer1 

just a thought question and i open up to @ProfD or @Troy 

Do you think big cities in the usa need to be broken up? I comprehend fully well the city governments and real estate industry and others will never accept such a thing but this is a thought experiment. 

But if you were a city council member and your vote meant the city will pass a law to break itself up into parts as near to internally homogeneous as possible, would you sign it? 

[ProfD]

56 minutes ago, richardmurray said:

 

Capitalism can be ruthless. But Slavery is a greater sinner. And Slavery is the heart of the usa, at least historically.

True.  Slavery was the building block of American capitalism. 

 

Yet, America has been doing a masterful job of whitewashing its history.

 

As it relates to slavery, AfroAmericans are allowing it to become a distant memory.

 

I don't believe most  AfroAmericans truly understand the white wealth that continues to compound  that was generated by slavery.

 

Slavery is the elephant in the room.  To date, nobody seems to be interested in tackling America's original sin.

 

56 minutes ago, richardmurray said:

just a thought question and i open up...

 

Do you think big cities in the usa need to be broken up? 

 

But if you were a city council member and your vote meant the city will pass a law to break itself up into parts as near to internally homogeneous as possible, would you sign it? 

The only way I would co-sign such a thing if there was beyond a reasonable assurance to provide enough resources for every every resident of the parts.  There would have to be enough funding to provide great jobs, schools, health care, public and social services, etc. 

[richardmurray]

@ProfD

14 hours ago, ProfD said:

As it relates to slavery, AfroAmericans are allowing it to become a distant memory.

 

I don't believe most  AfroAmericans truly understand the white wealth that continues to compound  that was generated by slavery.

 

Slavery is the elephant in the room.  To date, nobody seems to be interested in tackling America's original sin.

well, Black people in the usa, are still mostly Descended of Enslaved but from circa 1865 a very large percentage of financially affluent blacks personally rejected the influence of our enslavement to whites in the condition of blacks or non blacks in the usa, and that population's percentage among the fiscally wealthiest black people has only grown over the century and a half plus. Then you add the black immigrants who were never enslaved or descended from those enslaved immigrants into the usa and you get the environment. 

It isn't that black people are allowing slavery to become a distant memory, in my offline talks with various black people, all know of slavery in the usa. But, it is the relationhship they have to the usa. Black people from the caribbean, africa, south america, south east asia, india, have a positive relationship at the core to their relationship to the usa. Unlike me, a DOSer whose relationship at the core to the usa is negative. I only exist because of slavery. My forebears didn't want to leave africa, they didn't want to be enslaved, they didn't want to come to the american continent. 

I don't think comprehension is the issue, it is relationships and I end with , it isn't bad that some black people have a positive relationship to the usa. The DOSers are a people, all other black people in the usa don't need to be us,I assume your a DOSer too... BUT it is clear DOSers need a more internally focused position concerning our forebears enslavement or our unique relationship to the usa because of it. 

14 hours ago, ProfD said:

The only way I would co-sign such a thing if there was beyond a reasonable assurance to provide enough resources for every every resident of the parts.  There would have to be enough funding to provide great jobs, schools, health care, public and social services, etc. 

Interesting choice, thank you for answering... very expensive, very holistic as well, I wonder the others answers 

[ProfD]

5 hours ago, richardmurray said:

The DOSers are a people, all other black people in the usa don't need to be us,I assume your a DOSer too... BUT it is clear DOSers need a more internally focused position concerning our forebears enslavement or our unique relationship to the usa because of it. 

@richardmurray, as you have pointed out several times, Black folks are not a monolithic group of people.  There are many Black tribes.  

 

The FBA/ADOS tribe has a responsibility to never allow slavery to be forgotten.

 

FBA/ADOS have a responsibility to make America atone for the original sin and collect on the debt (reparations).

 

There is no shortage of obstacles and voices of opposition including other Black tribes. 

 

Whether those Black tribes are made up of affluent people who were never enslaved, immigrants or disenfranchised folks, etc., FBA/ADOS cannot allow them to be an impediment to us putting in the work and standing on business.

 

IMO, FBA/ADOS need to do a better job of closing ranks.  We cannot build alliances with and/or depend on other groups of people to ride with us.  Again, that goes for other Black tribes too.

 

Black immigrants do not share our history or perspective in relation to America.  To them, America is the land of opportunity.  It is that beacon on a hill that dwarfs the home countries they left behind.  Same goes for other non-white people. 

 

So, I cannot fault or blame those people for leaving their home countries.  I only ask that they stay out of the way and keep their mouths shut when it comes to FBA/ADOS.

 

As Dr. John Henrik Clarke said of FBA/ADOS people, "we have no friends". 

 

FBA/ADOS have to keep that in mind as we continue in fighting against the system of racism white supremacy.

[Pioneer1]

ProfD

America shouldn't have people who are homeless long-term or lifetime.
 

I'm not sure if I should agree or disagree.

I believe we should have a strong SAFETY NET to catch people who don't want to hit bottom.
But then again....some people WANT to be homeless.

That's part of the so-called "freedom" they have.
 

If a man doesn't want the responsibility of maintaining a house or paying rent and keeping up property and just wants to roam around on the street all of his life....as long as he's not bothering anyone he should be allowed to in my opinion.

However if a person DOESN'T want to live on the street and can't afford a play to stay, there should be enough adequate decent shelters for them to live in.

 

 

Back in the 1990s, asylums were closed down and institutionalized people were either transferred to prisons or thrown out on the streets to survive.
 

It really started with Reagan back in California when he started shutting down the mental hospitals and kicking people out on the street. Then it spread across the nation.

I remember CLEARLY back in 1991 when the Governor of Michigan shut down most of the PUBLIC mental hospitals and kicked most of the people out on the street.

I remember watching it on the news.
It was in the middle of February when he did it.

Not only did crime shoot up sky high, so did suicides and incarceration.
 

It used to be that mental hospitals were for those who were actually mentally ill.

Now there filled up with rich white girls with drug problems.




Troy

All of that garbage about how those mental hospitals were dungeons and dens of mistreatment and abuse toward vulnerable mentally ill patients was just an EXCUSE to close down those facilities and save money.

So what?
So SOME people were being abused in SOME of the mental hospitals....does that mean the nation should have shut ALL of them down and kick the people out on the street?

Kick them out on the street and let them be homeless, raped, robbed, and murdered....or commit suicide because they can't get the help the need.
I guess THAT makes more sense than housing them in building facilities and giving them medication.

Or toss them in prison....because we know they WON'T get abused in prison...right?

[richardmurray]

The representative of the family of the white woman burned alive is a black female pastor

@ProfD 

the DOSers will face the next challenges

@Pioneer1

 If I was an elected official in a legislature  and a law was being made to end asylums in the usa with what i know of them I will probably vote yes, while you would definitely vote no. And I comprehend why you would vote no. 

[ProfD]

13 minutes ago, richardmurray said:

The representative of the family of the white woman burned alive is a black female pastor

I'd imagine this Black female pastor is representing the family as a spokesperson and not a lawyer.  This is not a Ben Crump case.

 

13 minutes ago, richardmurray said:

the DOSers will face the next challenges

Not sure of what you're referring to in terms of next challenges.  Still working through the existing.

 

[richardmurray]

@ProfD

ben crump, well done

 

what I mean is the day to day challenges:) 

[ProfD]

12 hours ago, richardmurray said:

what I mean is the day to day challenges:) 

Gotcha.  Daily challenges remain works in process like the social services department.

[Pioneer1]

richardmurray

 

If I was an elected official in a legislature  and a law was being made to end asylums in the usa with what i know of them I will probably vote yes, while you would definitely vote no. And I comprehend why you would vote no. 

 

But I'm not sure I comprehend why you would vote YES...lol.

You know, based on what you said you "know of them"; however I'm curious as to what you KNOW of them that makes you feel that America is better off NOT having mental asylums?

 

And what would the alternative be?

We've already seen the alternatives for so many now: 
1.the streets
2.or prison
3.or death.

[richardmurray]

@Pioneer1

Well ok i will answer your questions from my position of voting yes

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

I'm curious as to what you KNOW of them that makes you feel that America is better off NOT having mental asylums?

The abuse. For me, it is not negligible. Are all mental asylums in the usa the same? no. Did  all mental asylums have abuse ? yes.  Did over half of mental asylums abuse all the people in it? yes, in varying ways. 

Why does it matter? IF the point of this place is to make people better, the failure is complete. If the goal is merely to incarcerate then they might as well go to prison. 

this leads to the second question

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

And what would the alternative be?

death isn't an alternative, that is a destination for all who live. 

Many alternatives haven't been tried but or implied or suggested but one alternative you didn't state is most statian and fits the usa the best, is slightly similar to what you mentioned.

Prison is the alternative. 

The key is a prison for the mentally imbalanced for the condition of being mentally imbalanced. But the prison has no doctors, no pharmacists, no chemist, no brain surgeons, no psychiatrist. The prison i speak of has no one researching or studying these people which all leads to abuse in one form or another. solitary confinements they can't leave. I will not go into specifics of design.  In the same way First Peoples children were herded into prisons called state schools, for the label/crime of being native american. 

Will the prisons i mention 

• make them mentally balanced? no
• abuse them? yes, but only the prison's conditions, not any human operatives or agents in the prison, like the mental asylums. 
• are mental asylums? no, they are prisons. 
• be good or make me a good guy? no, the point of the prisons i mention is to get the mentally imbalanced contained 

 

If I was an elected official , I will sign a bill for these prisons into law , make an act, if I can get an act of direct democracy for the bill. I restate, if the people in my district or state are allowed to vote in an election for referendum of yes, make the bill an act, or no, don't make the bill an act,  to the bill I will cosign the bill and if the referendum is majority yes, i vote the bill into  an act, if the referendum is majority no or even , i don't vote the bill into an act. 

 

Yes I am willing as an elected official to do a cruel thing, if the people i represent sign off on it. 

[Pioneer1]

richardmurray

You said death isn't an alternative because it's a destination for those who live.
For those with severe mental illness, the fact that they may rendezvous with THAT destiny sooner than others (either from suicide or from being taken advantage of and killed because of heir vulnerable mental state) make it more like an alternative for them.

So if I'm reading your correctly, you'd rather people with severe mental illness go to PRISON where they are almost GUARANTEED to be abused....than to go a state or privately ran mental hospital where they MAY be abused to various degrees but still get a measure of treatment?
 

 

 

[richardmurray]

@Pioneer1

11 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

So if I'm reading your correctly, you'd rather people with severe mental illness go to PRISON where they are almost GUARANTEED to be abused....than to go a state or privately ran mental hospital where they MAY be abused to various degrees but still get a measure of treatment?

I did say the following....

42 minutes ago, richardmurray said:

Will the prisons i mention 

• make them mentally balanced? no
• abuse them? yes, but only the prison's conditions, not any human operatives or agents in the prison, like the mental asylums. 
• are mental asylums? no, they are prisons. 
• be good or make me a good guy? no, the point of the prisons i mention is to get the mentally imbalanced contained 

 

Prison by default is an abuse. Being abused in prison is a double abuse. but as my words show I am convinced the human abuse can be minimized based on the design of the prison. That is key. 

 

44 minutes ago, richardmurray said:

The key is a prison for the mentally imbalanced for the condition of being mentally imbalanced. But the prison has no doctors, no pharmacists, no chemist, no brain surgeons, no psychiatrist. The prison i speak of has no one researching or studying these people which all leads to abuse in one form or another. solitary confinements they can't leave. I will not go into specifics of design.

Not rather, the treatments of the mental hospitals were greater abuses. Said mental hospitals were in truth places of inquisition, as in spain,  than hospus.  and a prison, away from those who broke the law or criminals , designed for cruel mean eternal isolation is an alternative. 

And I Said 

50 minutes ago, richardmurray said:

If I was an elected official , I will sign a bill for these prisons into law , make an act, if I can get an act of direct democracy for the bill. I restate, if the people in my district or state are allowed to vote in an election for referendum of yes, make the bill an act, or no, don't make the bill an act,  to the bill I will cosign the bill and if the referendum is majority yes, i vote the bill into  an act, if the referendum is majority no or even , i don't vote the bill into an act. 

in a position of power i defined what I am willing to do to reach said alternative. And I would reject the bill the second any allowance of doctors or pharmacist or experimentist  were placed in the prison for their so called treatments. 

[Pioneer1]

 

richardmurray

So much for what you'd do and the changes you'd make IF you were in power....lol.

As they prisons are NOW....do you think mentally ill people would be better off in them AS THEY ARE NOW than in mental hospitals?

[richardmurray]

@Pioneer1

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

As they prisons are NOW....do you think mentally ill people would be better off in them AS THEY ARE NOW than in mental hospitals?

No because the prisons that exist now aren't as i described the prisons need to be for he mentally ill. The key is type of prison

[ProfD]

People should not abused in any way no matter where they are housed i.e. asylum, prison, hospital, etc. 

 

In the most highly developed country on the planet, we can insure that those individuals in need of the most care, get it. 

 

People should not be subjected to experimental treatments or over-medication with drugs.

 

Only a *sick* society would condone such behaviors against people who have mental or physical issues.

[Chevdove]

On 1/1/2025 at 10:35 PM, ProfD said:

 

 

Again, it's makes no sense that a highly developed country like America has a *problem* taking care of the people who need it the most.

 

Capitalism is ruthless.

 

I agree. It makes no sense.

 

On 1/2/2025 at 6:50 PM, richardmurray said:

Maybe if black people start from slavery as the base heritage in the usa then all crimes, injuries to others, makes sense. Capitalism can be ruthless. But Slavery is a greater sinner. And Slavery is the heart of the usa, at least historically. The first peoples in the usa on the east coast were enslaved out of existence alot of times. 

i think the usa's inequal treatments, its tribalism, make perfect sense when you embrace slavery as the core statian ideal, not individualism, not fiscal capitalism, slavery. 

 

Absolutely true! 

 

On 1/2/2025 at 8:08 PM, ProfD said:

Yet, America has been doing a masterful job of whitewashing its history.

 

As it relates to slavery, AfroAmericans are allowing it to become a distant memory.

 

Maybe, but this government is helping because they have taken a lot of it out of the books in public schools. It seems the history starts with the CRM. But yeah, what do we do about that? 

On 1/3/2025 at 10:40 AM, richardmurray said:

t isn't that black people are allowing slavery to become a distant memory, in my offline talks with various black people, all know of slavery in the usa. But, it is the relationhship they have to the usa. Black people from the caribbean, africa, south america, south east asia, india, have a positive relationship at the core to their relationship to the usa.

 

This seems true and very depressing but I can understand why it would be so. America imo has reached out to certain Black people in other countries to come over here to offset the DOSers and use this ploy to erase what they did to us. 

On 1/3/2025 at 11:22 AM, ProfD said:

Black immigrants do not share our history or perspective in relation to America.  To them, America is the land of opportunity.  It is that beacon on a hill that dwarfs the home countries they left behind.  Same goes for other non-white people. 

 

So, I cannot fault or blame those people for leaving their home countries.  I only ask that they stay out of the way and keep their mouths shut when it comes to FBA/ADOS.

 

 

Oh! This reminds me of what I've just seen on the recent pageant. I agree and cannot fault or blame those people for leaving their home countries either, but I do believe this is problematic for us too. 

 

 

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, Chevdove said:

Maybe, but this government is helping because they have taken a lot of it out of the books in public schools. It seems the history starts with the CRM. But yeah, what do we do about that? 

 

State governments in places like Florida are banning books.  The Black folks in Florida should be protesting against it.

 

If Black folks want to keep our history from being whitewashed or banned in books, we need should be using every avenue available to insure that it doesn't happen.   

 

Black folks should be keeping our history alive in churches, schools, barbershops, beauty salons, books, music, TV, film, sports, etc.

 

One of the biggest challenges Black folks face is waiting for someone or something else, especially non-Black folks or sky fairies to save and deliver us from the forces of evil.  We should be fighting the devils ourselves.

[richardmurray]

@Chevdove

On 1/10/2025 at 12:00 PM, Chevdove said:

This seems true and very depressing but I can understand why it would be so. America imo has reached out to certain Black people in other countries to come over here to offset the DOSers and use this ploy to erase what they did to us. 

remember the primary reason for the immigration act was to win the cold war with russia. Russia had accused the usa of being a country of tiered groups. Immigration didn't make the whole of humanity better, but it allowed a small percentage of people from each country, usually the wealthiest, to come to the usa and take part of the empire. Sequentially, the wealthiest group in each country in humanity is pro usa. 

The fact that the immigration act 1960s led to a shift among a growing populace of black people in the usa was a positive side win for non blacks. 

 Well to erasure, remember, wherever you live Chevdove, you can organize, get parents together, and with that can set up a program to instill a certain education amongst DOSers of all ages.

[richardmurray]

@ProfD

On 1/10/2025 at 1:40 PM, ProfD said:

State governments in places like Florida are banning books.  The Black folks in Florida should be protesting against it.

 

If Black folks want to keep our history from being whitewashed or banned in books, we need should be using every avenue available to insure that it doesn't happen.   

 

Black folks should be keeping our history alive in churches, schools, barbershops, beauty salons, books, music, TV, film, sports, etc.

 

One of the biggest challenges Black folks face is waiting for someone or something else, especially non-Black folks or sky fairies to save and deliver us from the forces of evil.  We should be fighting the devils ourselves.

Well, not all battles are the same but when it comes to history, harlem or the greater black populace in nyc shows the way. 

Libraries can be private. What libraries do black people in florida have/own/control? Do they have any publishers in florida? 

The two key elements any community need for history is their own library/libraries + a way to publish books. 

In NYC I recall as a kid the black community in nyc had a bunch of initiatives for such a thing. Do the black people of florida have it? and if they don't then they need to ask about. I have said this before. The black financial aristocracy today has no excuse. Dwayne Wade has money. Gabrielle Union? who are the wealthy blacks of florida ? Invest in the black populace of florida. People may not want to hear it but it wasn't the white community that built the colleges/schools/libraries/museums/business quarters in NYC, it was rich whites that built up the white populaces infrastructure in nyc. So rich blacks get busy. Black people have to stop the fantasy of the community building in fiscal capitalism. Rich chinese built up chinatown, it wasn't the common folk, the tong the triad they did it. Yeah ok, money was from crimes or illegalities but they did it. Black Harlem, Black Brooklyn, Black Queens were all built up by black people. Black people built up the schomburg, medgar evers college, et cetera . 

So black flordiians of wealth, get busy. 

[ProfD]

9 hours ago, richardmurray said:

Libraries can be private. What libraries do black people in florida have/own/control? Do they have any publishers in florida? 

The two key elements any community need for history is their own library/libraries + a way to publish books. 

The owner of our beloved forum lives in Florida.

 

But, it's not on @Troy  to save Black history in his state of residence. 

 

9 hours ago, richardmurray said:

So rich blacks get busy. Black people have to stop the fantasy of the community building in fiscal capitalism.

Requires a collaborative effort.  It's up to the Black elected leaders, celebrities, investors and citizens to keep their states from banning books.

[Chevdove]

17 hours ago, richardmurray said:

remember the primary reason for the immigration act was to win the cold war with russia.

 

This is news to me.

 

 

17 hours ago, richardmurray said:

 

 Well to erasure, remember, wherever you live Chevdove, you can organize, get parents together, and with that can set up a program to instill a certain education amongst DOSers of all ages.

 

In theory that would be a good endeavor, but when it comes to the history of this kind of endeavor, I do not believe it will work at all. Yes, I am a go-getter and look for this kind of opportunity, but so far, historically, the only way that Black people have been motivated to bring a wide scale change for better was if there was violence. I am definitely optimistic that change for the better will happen though. On a small scale, I believe that everyone who has a positive outlook should try to organize some type of social group or do something though. Education is key. And so is communication and this is what I like about this community. Exchanging and sharing thoughts and ideas continually. Something positive always happens imo. 

On 1/10/2025 at 1:40 PM, ProfD said:

 

 

If Black folks want to keep our history from being whitewashed or banned in books, we need should be using every avenue available to insure that it doesn't happen.   

 

Yes. certainly!

 

 

[Chevdove]

On 1/10/2025 at 1:40 PM, ProfD said:

Black folks should be keeping our history alive in churches, schools, barbershops, beauty salons, books, music, TV, film, sports, etc.

 

One of the biggest challenges Black folks face is waiting for someone or something else, especially non-Black folks or sky fairies to save and deliver us from the forces of evil.  We should be fighting the devils ourselves.

 

While we wait, I agree that we should keep our history alive anyway possible! 

I agree that to tell Black people to wait, is frustrating, however, for many of us, that is all we can do instead of giving up hope altogether. 

I can see that you are frustrated with your 'sky fairy' non-belief, however, @ProfD, unfortunately, history shows us that putting your trust in mankind, whether Black or non-Black is useless and, thinking that you can bring about change by yourself is also not going to work. 

I hope that you won't continue to be so frustrated with those of us who fight and wait for a higher power to intervene. 

 

 

[ProfD]

20 minutes ago, Chevdove said:

I agree that to tell Black people to wait, is frustrating, however, for many of us, that is all we can do instead of giving up hope altogether. 

Stop hoping and praying.  It is up to each individual to put in the work required to make changes.

 

20 minutes ago, Chevdove said:

I can see that you are frustrated with your 'sky fairy' non-belief, however, @ProfD,

I'm not frustrated with believers.  Some folks need an opiate, dope to cope with their condition.

 

20 minutes ago, Chevdove said:

unfortunately, history shows us that putting your trust in mankind, whether Black or non-Black is useless...

Don't put your trust in mankind.  It is the source of the problems.   

20 minutes ago, Chevdove said:

and, thinking that you can bring about change by yourself is also not going to work. 

It does work.  History provides countless examples of  Black people who have made changes.

20 minutes ago, Chevdove said:

I hope that you won't continue to be so frustrated with those of us who fight and wait for a higher power to intervene. 

Again, I'm not frustrated with believers.  I get it. I understand how they were indoctrinated.

 

However, I don't believe those who are waiting on a higher power to intervene are fighting to free themselves from oppression. 

 

In fact, the concept of non-violence and obeying a master has a neutering effect on people.

 

When Black folks were being whipped and lynched, there weren't enough slave revolts.  

 

When Black folks get killed by racists, there is no retaliation.

 

When Black folks are mass incarcerated, there's no effort to free them.

 

The list goes on in how Black folks have acquiesced to their oppression due to their religious beliefs.

[Chevdove]

11 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Again, I'm not frustrated with believers.  I get it. I understand how they were indoctrinated.

 

IDK it seems like you are ignoring the Black origins on how this indoctrination came about. 

White Supremacy could never have happened if there were not Black hatred. 

[Chevdove]

26 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Stop hoping and praying. 

 

That's not going to happen. Everyone has expectations. A person will hope in their own selves or a higher power, that's just nature. And a person will make a plea to others, whether a human or a higher power, in other words pray, and again, that is just human nature. We can either make an appeal to another human or to a higher power, but that will continue. 

 

30 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Don't put your trust in mankind.  It is the source of the problems.   

 

Absolutely!

 

30 minutes ago, ProfD said:

It does work.  History provides countless examples of  Black people who have made changes.

 

Please give me an example, here. 

 

31 minutes ago, ProfD said:

However, I don't believe those who are waiting on a higher power to intervene are fighting to free themselves from oppression. 

 

That is vital, to fight is key to bringing about change just as much as having hope and faith and anticipating for that change to happen. In other words, 'Praying and having faith in getting help from a higher power or having faith of getting help from anyone without works is dead'. 

 

I agree that it is useless to believe in getting help from anyone if you don't do anything to help bring about that change. 

 

40 minutes ago, ProfD said:

In fact, the concept of non-violence and obeying a master has a neutering effect on people.

 

When Black folks were being whipped and lynched, there weren't enough slave revolts.  

 

 

But given some of the history of how such actions were dealt with, I don't see how you cannot recognize why some Black people just give up and throw in the towel.

I just recently saw something about how in the deep South hundreds of heads that have been decapitated were hung about all along the slave row to show the slaves how a certain revolt was dealt with. 

 

43 minutes ago, ProfD said:

When Black folks get killed by racists, there is no retaliation.

 

When Black folks are mass incarcerated, there's no effort to free them.

 

The list goes on in how Black folks have acquiesced to their oppression due to their religious beliefs.

 

I do not believe that Black people give up due to their religious beliefs, however, it is harsh and brutal retaliation on the part of this government. 

Many souls have been broken. 

[ProfD]

36 minutes ago, Chevdove said:

IDK it seems like you are ignoring the Black origins on how this indoctrination came about. 

White Supremacy could never have happened if there were not Black hatred. 

The only way Black folks could have suppressed white supremacy would have been to distrust them and kill if necessary. 

 

Otherwise, all groups of people have internal issues as result of their differences. 

 

7 minutes ago, Chevdove said:

That's not going to happen. Everyone has expectations. A person will hope in their own selves or a higher power, that's just nature. And a person will make a plea to others, whether a human or a higher power, in other words pray, and again, that is just human nature. We can either make an appeal to another human or to a higher power, but that will continue. 

You're right.  Powerless people resort to hope and prayer for a better situation.

 

7 minutes ago, Chevdove said:

Please give me an example, here. 

Revisit and/or study Black history.  

7 minutes ago, Chevdove said:

But given some of the history of how such actions were dealt with, I don't see how you cannot recognize why some Black people just give up and throw in the towel.

I just recently saw something about how in the deep South hundreds of heads that have been decapitated were hung about all along the slave row to show the slaves how a certain revolt was dealt with. 

Sure.  Hundreds of thousands of Black folks didn't survive the transatlantic cruise.  Thousands were killed here in America because they didn't go along with the program. 

 

 There were a lot of slave revolts.  Of course, white folks aren't going to highlight that part of the history. They don't want Black folks to see themselves as rebels.

 

The Caribbean is one place that ended slavery earlier because the Black folks refused it despite being tortured and killed.  Haiti is one example of liberation. 

 

7 minutes ago, Chevdove said:

I do not believe that Black people give up due to their religious beliefs, however, it is harsh and brutal retaliation on the part of this government. 

Many souls have been broken. 

What do you consider the most recent actions of  harsh and brutal retaliation from the government leading to broken souls?

 

Black people are not giving up due to religious beliefs. It allows them to live with the system of racism white supremacy.