MLK jr day is on the 19th in 2026

[ProfD]

5 minutes ago, Delano said:

Thanks @ProfD I'm having a midnight snack. Today is Australia Day. It's like the Fourth of July. Except Aboriginal call it Invasion Day.. There's a big Aboriginal festival across the street. Will check out our this year.

Enjoy my brotha.

 

Here in the USA over 140 million people are enduring a snow storm.

[Pioneer1]

Is death truly a form of "freedom" for the atheist or agnostic?

If one doesn't believe in the existence of consciousness after a physical death, they wouldn't be around to enjoy no longer being restricted or oppressed.

After a stressful or hectic day, one often enjoys a good nights sleep or a deep sleep because of the relaxed feeling of well being that you feel in the morning.
But if there is no morning after that sleep................

[ProfD]

13 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Is death truly a form of "freedom" for the atheist or agnostic?

Absolutely. Death is freedom from all forms of pain &/or suffering. 

 

Regardless of state of being, that person is no longer restricted or oppressed; in pain &/or suffering. 

 

13 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

If one doesn't believe in the existence of consciousness after a physical death, they wouldn't be around to enjoy no longer being restricted or oppressed.

After a stressful or hectic day, one often enjoys a good nights sleep or a deep sleep because of the relaxed feeling of well being that you feel in the morning.
But 

Reads like your idea of freedom comes with some type of enjoyment.

 

The lure of enjoyment which is temporary freedom is exactly how people remain restricted &/or oppressed. That's why most people are afraid to die. 

 

To truly be free is unbound by any chains literal or figurative. Death removes them.

[Delano]

4 minutes ago, ProfD said:

To truly be free is unbound by any chains literal or figurative. Death removes them

That's tight, no wiggle room.

[Pioneer1]

ProfD

Absolutely. Death is freedom from all forms of pain &/or suffering. 
Regardless of state of being, that person is no longer restricted or oppressed; in pain &/or suffering. 
 

But once one actually dies....if according to the atheist/agnostic there is no consciousness after death...how would they enjoy or even know that the pain and suffering has ended?

They don't know anything.
They don't even know that they are dead.

Would the last thing they remember is the pain and suffering before....lights out?



 

Reads like your idea of freedom comes with some type of enjoyment.
 

Well, isn't that ONE of the purposes of freedom?
To enjoy oneself or find pleasure?
What would be the benefit of being free if there is no pleasure or enjoyment to it?

 

 

The lure of enjoyment which is temporary freedom is exactly how people remain restricted &/or oppressed. That's why most people are afraid to die. 

You have to admit that there is SOME logic to this belief system.
Why should some people seek "freedom" if that particular freedom would bring more pain, suffering, confusion, or discomfort than the restricted conditions they are living under where they do experience some joys and pleasures?

The slave didn't want to kill massa, burn down the big house, and run out into the woods to escape slavery.....only to starve to death or die of exposure IN those woods.


 

To truly be free is unbound by any chains literal or figurative.
 

Correct

Death removes them
 

Perhaps.

Speaking as a Metaphysical Theist, I believe that even after physical death in this dimension you move to other dimensions where there are still restrictions to a certain extent.
Not as many as in this One, but they do exist.

[ProfD]

9 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

But once one actually dies....if according to the atheist/agnostic there is no consciousness after death...how would they enjoy or even know that the pain and suffering has ended?

They don't know anything.
They don't even know that they are dead.

Right. Everything about this existence stops. No more chains.

 

9 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Well, isn't that ONE of the purposes of freedom?

To enjoy oneself or find pleasure?
What would be the benefit of being free if there is no pleasure or enjoyment to it?

Many people find enjoyment &/or pleasure in doing absolutely nothing. Death provides it.

 

9 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Why should some people seek "freedom" if that particular freedom would bring more pain, suffering, confusion, or discomfort than the restricted conditions they are living under where they do experience some joys and pleasures?

They don't really want to be free. Like a drug addict, they just want to get high. There's a difference. 

 

9 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

The slave didn't want to kill massa, burn down the big house, and run out into the woods to escape slavery.....only to starve to death or die of exposure IN those woods.

The temporary enjoyment allowed by the slave master was good enough for him.

 

Again, most people are afraid to die for several reasons. Freedom isn't one of them.

 

9 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Perhaps.

Speaking as a Metaphysical Theist, I believe that even after physical death in this dimension you move to other dimensions where there are still restrictions to a certain extent.
Not as many as in this One, but they do exist.

Yet, there's no way of proving &/or knowing alternative dimensions or realities exist other than one's own mind.

 

Freedom, enjoyment and pleasure are not synonymous or inextricably linked.

 

For examples, humans find enjoyment & pleasure in s8x but procreating can nullify their freedom. People enjoy getting high until a terrible accident gets them locked up behind bars or worse.

[Pioneer1]

ProfD

 

 

Right. Everything about this existence stops. No more chains.

 

No, but the chains are replaced by worms wiggling around on your wrists....lol.

 

 

 

 

 

Many people find enjoyment &/or pleasure in doing absolutely nothing. Death provides it.

 

But according to the atheist/agnostic view point...they CAN'T find enjoyment or pleasure in death because they aren't conscious.

 

 

 

 

They don't really want to be free. Like a drug addict, they just want to get high. There's a difference. 

 

Well.....
I think what most people want is PEACE and HAPPINESS.

Now if freedom will bring you that, then like Cinqe said in Amistad: 

 

 
            "GIVE ME FREE"

 

 

But if you're in bondage and being fed, clothed, and housed in relatively comfortable conditions and being "freed" means all of that would be removed and you'll be tossed out into the harsh cold winter with no master and no shelter either.........then many would argue that bondage is probably better.


 

Yet, there's no way of proving &/or knowing alternative dimensions or realities exist other than one's own mind.
 

There is plenty of proof.
Has been for decades if not centuries.
It's been proven beyond any doubt that Realities exist after physical death and beyond this one.

Whether one chooses to accept it or not, is another story....lol.

 

Freedom, enjoyment and pleasure are not synonymous or inextricably linked.
 

Correct.


 

 

For examples, humans find enjoyment & pleasure in s8x but procreating can nullify their freedom. People enjoy getting high until a terrible accident gets them locked up behind bars or worse.
 

So you see the point I'm making of why freedom in and of itself isn't necessarily the ultimate goal for most people.

 

[ProfD]

6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

But according to the atheist/agnostic view point...they CAN'T find enjoyment or pleasure in death because they aren't conscious.

They're still free.

6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

But if you're in bondage and being fed, clothed, and housed in relatively comfortable conditions and being "freed" means all of that would be removed and you'll be tossed out into the harsh cold winter with no master and no shelter either.........then many would argue that bondage is probably better.
 

So you see the point I'm making of why freedom in and of itself isn't necessarily the ultimate goal for most people.

Would you choose to be a slave to another man?

[Pioneer1]

ProfD

 

 

They're still free.

 

Well.....
Free means unrestrained or unrestricted.

 

Isn't a casket quite restricting?

 

A dead body is SELF restrained...lol.

 

 

 

 

 

Would you choose to be a slave to another man?

 

You may find my answer appalling but, it depends.

 

It depends what MY situation is at the time and what that man is TRULY (meaning he keeps his word) offering me in exchange for for my bondage.

Does being a slave to a particular person offers far more benefits to me and my family than walking around free as a bird?

 

I'm not some bearded White man walking around with an American flag tattooed on his chest yelling and waving "live free or die" flags and shit.
That's a lot of dramatization and cosplay.
 

I prioritize happiness and comfort over simple freedom.
Especially when it's not real freedom to begin with.

[ProfD]

53 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Well.....

Free means unrestrained or unrestricted.

 

Isn't a casket quite restricting?

 

A dead body is SELF restrained...lol.

Still free...for good.

 

53 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Would you choose to be a slave to another man?

 

You may find my answer appalling but, it depends.

 

It depends what MY situation is at the time and what that man is TRULY (meaning he keeps his word) offering me in exchange for for my bondage.

That's your VGQ.

 

53 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

I prioritize happiness and comfort over simple freedom.

If happiness & comfort is dependent on others, I can see how it would be prioritized over freedom.

 

For example, men & women will languish in bad relationships that are prison-like because they are comfortable & too lazy to get out of it.

[richardmurray]

@Delano @Pioneer1 @ProfD 

nice trilog on the question of the quality of freedom when one is dead. 

It is full of thought, as death plus freedom don't have universal definition, nor is communication to the deceased proven to those who never experienced it or comprehended  robustly enough to those who have experienced it to clarify freedom's quality to those who are dead. The living can only guess how freedom , however defined for someone living, is to those who are dead, which isn't the dead communicating their position. A guess isn't wrong, but a guess isn't right, itis a thesis. In this case three thesis, well done. 

[ProfD]

The people that have had NDE (Near Death Experience) always claim it is so peaceful & beautiful they didn't want to come back to this existence. Yet, none of them ever seemed to be in a rush to die.

 

Many of my loved ones & friends have died. Not nary a one of them has dropped me a hint, note or sign. They must be having a blast wherever they ended up.

[Pioneer1]

ProfD

 

 

Still free...for good.

 

Is a person in a coma, free?

 

 

If happiness & comfort is dependent on others, I can see how it would be prioritized over freedom.

 

Correct.
If a person is of limited intelligence (actually everybody's intelligence is "limited" to a certain degree) and can't provide happiness and comfort for themselves or even provide a basic living for themselves....then what good is THEIR freedom?

 

 

 

For example, men & women will languish in bad relationships that are prison-like because they are comfortable & too lazy to get out of it

 

Facts.
Many would rather put up with abuse than be alone.
Others are afraid of the thought of being independent and having to provide for themselves, so they tolerate abuse.
Many young bruthaz are shacking up with women they don't like but these women are providing shelter and support for them.

 

 

The people that have had NDE (Near Death Experience) always claim it is so peaceful & beautiful they didn't want to come back to this existence. Yet, none of them ever seemed to be in a rush to die.

 

Actually, some of them HAVE been what one would consider "suicidal" for a time period after their NDE.
They had mild suicidal ideation where they would consider it because they were longing to go back to that state of existence.
But they realized that they were eventually going to go back their anyway they decided not to ruin it by ending their mission on this life early.
 

Many of those who have NDEs talk about being FORCED to return because they had a time period that must spend in this life.
It wasn't their "time" to leave this Reality yet.
Others are given a choice and choose to stay to help out family and raise their kids. 

Nearly all of them agree 100% and whole heartedly that what they experienced was not a dream or fantasy but even MORE real than this Reality.

 

[ProfD]

43 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Still free...for good.

 

Is a person in a coma, free?

Yep.  Free from dealing with the BS that comes with this existence.

43 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

If happiness & comfort is dependent on others, I can see how it would be prioritized over freedom.

 

Correct.
If a person is of limited intelligence (actually everybody's intelligence is "limited" to a certain degree) and can't provide happiness and comfort for themselves or even provide a basic living for themselves....then what good is THEIR freedom?

As NF Jr. might have said...you would have to ask them and wait for the answer.  Don't interrupt.

43 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

For example, men & women will languish in bad relationships that are prison-like because they are comfortable & too lazy to get out of it

 

Facts.
Many would rather put up with abuse than be alone.
Others are afraid of the thought of being independent and having to provide for themselves, so they tolerate abuse.
Many young bruthaz are shacking up with women they don't like but these women are providing shelter and support for them.

Those people are putting themselves in prison or h8ll on purpose.

 

43 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Actually, some of them HAVE been what one would consider "suicidal" for a time period after their NDE.
They had mild suicidal ideation where they would consider it because they were longing to go back to that state of existence.
But they realized that they were eventually going to go back their anyway they decided not to ruin it by ending their mission on this life early.

Nah.  If the NDE was so great...go back & stay there. 

 

43 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Many of those who have NDEs talk about being FORCED to return because they had a time period that must spend in this life.
It wasn't their "time" to leave this Reality yet.

How convenient.  Forced to come back to suffer.

43 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Others are given a choice and choose to stay to help out family and raise their kids. 

Another excuse.  A whole lotta folks cannot wait to get away from their spouse, significant others, kids & family members.

 

 

43 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Nearly all of them agree 100% and whole heartedly that what they experienced was not a dream or fantasy but even MORE real than this Reality.

That is definitely the party line.  Everyone claims it was beautiful.  Not one of them said f8ck it and jumped into the grand canyon.

[Pioneer1]

ProfD

Yep.  Free from dealing with the BS that comes with this existence.
 

I suppose it would sound like we're going in circles if I ask if they supposedly unconscious during a coma then how can they "enjoy" their freedom....lol.
However I think you understand the point I'm making.

 

Whether that lack of consciousness is due to death or a coma, certainly they aren't EXPERIENCING their restrictions or limitations anymore...even though technically their bodies are even MORE restricted...but from an atheistic point of view they supposedly don't experience ANYTHING.
So how would they even KNOW they're free???

 

 

 

As NF Jr. might have said...you would have to ask them and wait for the answer.  Don't interrupt

 

....unless I already KNOW the answer, lol.

If a person is too stupid to provide the basics for their own sustenance, they are going to snuggle up to and obey anybody who can.

 

 

 

Those people are putting themselves in prison or h8ll on purpose.

 

I wouldn't call it "hell"; however it could be a "prison" of sorts.

But some people are INSTITUTIONALIZED and relish being in "greater confinement".  
Their basic needs are taken care off and they have very few responsibilities.
They don't even have to think for themselves, just follow orders.
Living on the "outside" was a little too much for them.

 

Like Brutha Baines from Malcolm X told the other prisoners:

 

 

"If you had to provide three meals a day and support yourselves on the outside you'd slit your own throats.
So you let HIM feed you, tell you when to go to bed, tell you when to wake up, and sit when HE says sit."

 

 

Nah.  If the NDE was so great...go back & stay there

 

Lol, it's not always their choice.

If you belong in another country, you can't even stay in AMERICA for a long as you like...lol.
Why would you be able to break the rules of the Spiritual World and INSIST on staying as long as YOU want?

These are HIGHER BEINGS you're dealing with...not other humans.
Think about ants in your house trying to tell YOU what part of the house they'd like to occupy and for how long...lol.

 

 

How convenient.  Forced to come back to suffer

 

From what I gather, they come back for 2 reasons:

1. For loved ones....usually people dependent on them like little children...whom they WANT to come back for.
2. They have an unfulfilled mission that they must accomplish.  

 

 

 

 

Another excuse.  A whole lotta folks cannot wait to get away from their spouse, significant others, kids & family members.

 

...hey, humanity is on the spectrum.

Some folks KILL their children.
Others will die FOR their children.

 

 

 

 

 

 That is definitely the party line.  Everyone claims it was beautiful.  Not one of them said f8ck it and jumped into the grand canyon

 

They don't know what kind of punishment may be waiting for them on the "other side" for doing so.

If these Higher Beings told them it wasn't their time and sent them back, it would see they would instinctively know they will be a consequence for trying to end their lives early.
That's not to say a person should never consider suicide to escape an extremely unpleasant situation.
Everybody's tolerance levels are different.
But why take unnecessary chances?

[Troy]

On 1/25/2026 at 9:37 AM, Pioneer1 said:

if according to the atheist/agnostic there is no consciousness after death

Agnostics and atheists just question or reject respectively, the existence of a God or Gods, which is completely separate the issue believing in consciousness after death.

 

 

[Pioneer1]

9 minutes ago, Troy said:

Agnostics and atheists just question or reject respectively, the existence of a God or Gods, which is completely separate the issue believing in consciousness after death.

 

You're correct.  Technically it's not part of the doctrine....which focuses primarily on the existence of Deities; however most atheists declare death as the end of personal existence which includes all forms of consciousness. 
Many agnostics seem to lean towards that belief as well.
Non-existence is the conclusion their pattern of logic takes them to.
 

[ProfD]

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

ProfD

Yep.  Free from dealing with the BS that comes with this existence.
 

I suppose it would sound like we're going in circles if I ask if they supposedly unconscious during a coma then how can they "enjoy" their freedom....lol.
However I think you understand the point I'm making.

It's circular. I've always understood you're thinking as it relates to enjoying freedom. 

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Whether that lack of consciousness is due to death or a coma, certainly they aren't EXPERIENCING their restrictions or limitations anymore...even though technically their bodies are even MORE restricted...but from an atheistic point of view they supposedly don't experience ANYTHING.
So how would they even KNOW they're free???

It could be the same experience the NDE folks mention. Bottom line is we really don't know.

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Why would you be able to break the rules of the Spiritual World and INSIST on staying as long as YOU want?

These are HIGHER BEINGS you're dealing with...not other humans.

Right. That applies to people who believe in such things.

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

From what I gather, they come back for 2 reasons:

1. For loved ones....usually people dependent on them like little children...whom they WANT to come back for.
2. They have an unfulfilled mission that they must accomplish.

That is the convenient, er, rationalization folks use for their continued physical existence. 

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

They don't know what kind of punishment may be waiting for them on the "other side" for doing so.

If these Higher Beings told them it wasn't their time and sent them back, it would see they would instinctively know they will be a consequence for trying to end their lives early.

Sure. Folks who believe in that rationalize life accordingly. 

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

That's not to say a person should never consider suicide to escape an extremely unpleasant situation.
Everybody's tolerance levels are different.
But why take unnecessary chances?

A person whose religious beliefs forbid it most likely would not take that chance.

 

That's why bilions of people are willing to live in oppression, pain & suffering. They hope & believe life will be better on the other side...freedom.

[Pioneer1]

ProfD

 

It could be the same experience the NDE folks mention. Bottom line is we really don't know.

 

Those who experience it....already know.

 

 

That is the convenient, er, rationalization folks use for their continued physical existence. 

 

Perhaps in some cases.
But again, these people were often TOLD this by the Superior Beings they encountered during their NDEs.

 

 

 

That's why bilions of people are willing to live in oppression, pain & suffering. They hope & believe life will be better on the other side...freedom.

 

A type of freedom they can enjoy and experience.
As opposed to simply not existing anymore, where you simply don't have any awareness that what you were trying to escape has ended.
 

[ProfD]

4 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

That's why bilions of people are willing to live in oppression, pain & suffering. They hope & believe life will be better on the other side...freedom.

 

A type of freedom they can enjoy and experience.
As opposed to simply not existing anymore, where you simply don't have any awareness that what you were trying to escape has ended.

Of course, I don't believe anyone truly knows what is on the other side of this existence.