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What's Wrong With This Picture?

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miles_alridge_behind_time_100.jpg?w=560

Miles Aldridge, hair stylist Yusef and Viola Davis on set for TIME 100.  Courtesy Miles Aldridge 

 

viola-davis.jpg

https://www.instagram.com/p/BTJi-U5gHbt/?taken-by=yusefhairnyc

 

A picture is worth a 1000 words... and the story we tell as a result reveals so much about ourselves..

Famed  Fashion Photographer Miles Aldridge and Stylist Yusef , (a black man) collaborated on this cover...   according to Yusef, he did her make-up and hair and seems to be quite pleased.

Ms. Davis' s dress is green,  think: chroma key to make it easy for Photoshop.  It appears, however, that Ms Davis isn't re-touched.

Here's time's article "The Story behind The Time 100 Most influential People's Covers" about why the photographer staged the look...

"Color, courage and clarity are the key notes for the covers of the TIME 100 Most Influential People issue. Photographer Miles Aldridge, who created the portraits, knew immediately that they had to pop and clash with as much vitality as a Mozart concerto.

“I wanted the pictures to be bright; bright being almost an adjective for sound rather than for image,” says Aldridge. “In a way, I’m talking about Matisse; the way his colors were always juxtaposed so beautifully. There was a sort of visual stimulation, that almost felt like music.” 

Aldridge, a seasoned fashion photographer, decided early on that color would be his unifying tempo, marking a clear departure from previous year’s more muted tones. But the people and personalities were still the beating heart of the photos. The pioneers, titans, artists, leaders and icons – of whom Riz Ahmed, Melinda Gates, John Legend, Jeff Bezos and Viola Davis made the covers – are giants in their field. It was important then, that they held their own against the boldness of Aldridge’s palette.   Though his shoots are heavily constructed, photographing strong personalities such as Viola Davis, mean the subjects' energy becomes part of the stimulus.

The result for Davis was an incredibly warm and joyous burst of laughter – sparked from a conversation about her Oscar win – which Aldridge then asked her to repeat over and over again. “[The smile's] essence is from the real world,” he explains. “But its actual construction is completely artificial.” Aldridge’s contact sheets are the antithesis of Cartier-Bresson’s ‘decisive moment.’ “It’s not like a lucky moment. It’s very controlled,” he adds. “But therein one can be expressive with the rules.... More at TIME

 

 

 

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LMAO THANKS, MEL!  This clears up a lot of things.  And the finger should be pointed directly at 2 men for any negative reactions to this picture.  Their rationales for creating Viola's look are a lot artsy BS. I wonder if her black make-up man is gay.  ;)  I think this is kind of a cruel ironic joke.

I was wrong about most of my assumptions but i was right when i perceived Viola as being happy about something.

What TIME should really be chided for is selecting Leslie Jones as an influential black woman when the only influence she wields is how she reinforces white people's view of black women as loud, brazen sexpots. 

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5 minutes ago, Cynique said:

i was right when i perceived Viola as being happy about something.

@Cynique I went to Miles Aldridge website (Dude is fixated on boobs, a lot of color especially pubis hair string bikini lol) and Yusef's Instagram and saw what he did to Rihanna's hair for a shoot in Paris and I got such a tickle; I... all of ranting - and none of us included the "Art" angle.   But then again, Art is what will get a rise of folks.  Kudos to  @Pioneer1  for noticing.  

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Didn't somebody once say "all art is political"?  I learned something from all of this and that is, the importance of researching something you are arguing about.  

Since i do agree that everyone 's reaction to the picture was subjective, i am trying  to dissect my own reaction.  i was kinda thinkin that rather than "art" this was "mischief" and that TIME was messing with black minds, putting them in a Catch 22 position of criticizing a picture of a black woman who looked like - a black woman. I was trying not to fall into TIME's trap and outsmarted myself. :wacko:

But i was right about Viola looking ecstatic, like someone who had just been awarded something  and that she was smiling not grimacing.  :D

 

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Hold the presses ya'll. Mel thanks for sharing this, but I think it just adds another layer of complexity.  Just because a Black man took the photo does not negative anything I wrote.

Clearly, his sensibilities differ from mine as well, as pioneer's, and some of the survey respondents.  

This information it does not make one group "right" and the other "wrong."  What I've learned from this conversation is that perception is everything and we can not truly know the underlying motivations of someone else's perspectives.  Indeed the motivations for our own perceptions can even escape us.

For example, there are plenty of Black people who are strong public supporters of Donald Trump.  Just because they are Black does not negate the fact there is a strong discrepancy with the majority of other Black folks who feel the Trump supporter must be ignorant, stupid, or both.  

This photo is just a subtle example of of something that illustrates those differences, but it is no less revealing. Sort of like a Black Rorschach Test.

Maybe the correlation is not gender, but frequency or intensity of racist experiences.  If your experiences with white folks have been largely innocuous and pleasant, you like the photo.

I think this whole conversation is fascinating on so many levels.  I wonder if any of the people who replied to the survey would change their vote after reading this exchange.  @Pioneer1 see what you started ;)

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Did a black man take the photos?  Is Myles Aldridge black or white? I'm confused. 

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20 minutes ago, Cynique said:

Did a black man take the photos?  Is Myles Aldridge black or white? I'm confused. 

 According to this article, Yusef Williams, the celebrity hair stylist, was born and raised in Miami, FL , he looks African-American but I couldn't find ethnicity.  

Miles Aldridge, the fashion photographer, according to the internet, is British, He was born in London, England  :)

1 hour ago, Troy said:

What I've learned from this conversation is that perception is everything and we can not truly know the underlying motivations of someone else's perspectives.  Indeed the motivations for our own perceptions can even escape us.

Yep!  this is why the Nubians instructed students in the ancient School of Mysteries to  "Know ThySelf" ... It's the most important educational undertaking in life. 

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In Hamlet by Shakespeare, this Prince of Denmark is advised:

"This above all to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man."

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Del have you considered that I've also learned from you in this exchange?

There is also age, sexual orientation, and who is writing your check that may be a factor here in differing perspectives. 

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So Miles Aldridge, the one who took the photo is a White man who loved to.....as they say in England...."take the piss".

Figures.......

This Yusef Williams fellow, I know he did her hair but did they say he did her make-up too?
I don't know if I skipped over that part or what but I don't remember reading it.

 

 

Cynique

What TIME should really be chided for is selecting Leslie Jones as an influential black woman when the only influence she wields is how she reinforces white people's view of black women as loud, brazen sexpots.

Well
It's "ABOUT TIME" (pun is definately intended) you said something I agreed with....lol.



Troy

You said a lot in your second from last post.
But unless I was reading it wrong, it sounded a little like the ladies were actually beginning to see things OUR way just a little....lol.

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Guest Bobbie

I have to disagree that a dark skinned lady can't wear red lipstick. This is an opinion that has been passed down through ignorance. However, I do agree it doesn't look appealing on her due to the excessive use of the lipstick. Whoever was the make-up artist made that mistake. My question is was that person of color? Also, it had to be the photographer who had her to pose as such. What is the purpose of having her pose with her mouth wide open, with the red lipstick? In the African American community we have the great stain in history of calling darker women unattractive. This is proven through selections of wives, girlfriends, actress, commercials etc. Please know that dark skinned women can wear many shades of lipstick, even orange. 

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@Delano when you wrote I was "mirroring your statement" I was saying that it was because I learned something from you in this exchange.

@Pioneer1 , I do believe the ladies are begging to understand our perspctive.  Yes, Cynique's statement about Leslie was on point.  Again since Black folks do not choose who is most important to us, all we can do is still back and complain...

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On 2017-5-28 at 2:51 AM, Cynique said:

In Hamlet by Shakespeare, this Prince of Denmark is advised:

"This above all to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man."

Yeah I'm constantly checking myself. To not become a sexist greedy racist homophobe. 

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I just posted the preliminary results of the little survey asking if the photo of Viola flattering and Racist. The results are reflective of our conversation.  

It was interesting, to me, to see that 100% of the non-black respondents found the photo both flattering and nonracist.  This, of course, comes as no surprise.

Almost 72% of Black women did not think the photo was flattering almost 1/3 strongly disagreeing with the statement.  See the complete summary.

flattering.png

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LOL. @Delano Everybody has flaws and prejudices and being true to ourselves involves acknowledging them because that's who we are.  The true test is not being false to anyone by pretending to be something we are not.  The final challenge  is to not let our flaws have an injurious impact on others.  

 

@Troy I tend to think you subliminally injected the power of suggestion in the way the question was worded.You might have gotten different answers if you'd asked something more objective like "what comes to mind when you view this picture?" But i understand you wanted to compare your results with the feedback on the board to Pioneer's strong opinion. 

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@Cynique

@Cynique

I have seen people display a$$h0li$h behaviour and being unaware. I don't want to be that person. 

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Hi Cynique an open ended question like that would have been too vague. I could have asked Pioneer's question "what's wrong with this picture" and provided a list of options but, as you said, I wanted know if people thought the photo was racist when asked directly. Did you see the complete results?

 

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“Hi Cynique an open ended question like that would have been too vague. I could have asked Pioneer's question "what's wrong with this picture" and provided a list of options but, as you said, I wanted know if people thought the photo was racist when asked directly.”

There was nothing racist about it. That's the way the woman looks. But for some people, the photograph was troublesome. Why? Well, Viola Davis has unmistakable Negroid DNA that gives her a look many people (mostly Negroes) are uncomfortable with. She has the face and skin complexion of what most people consider the bottom rung of femininity and beauty. Why? Because the universal standard of female beauty consists of light and bright skin, chiseled proportionate small facial features and soft, bouncy naturally straight hair. The complete antithesis of  Viola Davis. Not saying I agree with this but it's a nondebatable reality. Viola Davis joins the ranks of black females (e.g., Alek Wek, Missy Elliott, Nina Simone, Uzo Aduba, Gabby Sidibe, et al) who have at some point in their life have faced a tsunami of criticism and hostility for their genetics. Now here is the bone breaking crux of the matter –who do you think is their harshest critics? Answer: OTHER BLACK FEMALES!

 

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Bobbie

No one is saying that dark skinned Black women CAN'T wear bright red lipstick.
They can wear whatever they want.

Personally, I'm saying they SHOULDN'T because it clashes with their skin tone.

I guess it depends on what you're wearing it for though.
Many Black women claim they don't care what society things of them and they'll wear whatever they feel like, but then turn around and get mad if Black men look at women of other races instead of them.....something you wouldn't do if you really didn't care.

If I have to choose between seeing Black women dress and act however they want to without criticizing them.....or offering corrective criticizm on how they should dress and act to be most attractive.
My love of them forces me to choose the latter whether they initially understand it or not.



Cynique

LOL. @Delano Everybody has flaws and prejudices and being true to ourselves involves acknowledging them because that's who we are. The true test is not being false to anyone by pretending to be something we are not.

What if someone is pretending to be a psychic who knows the future, but is not and can't?

Lol, how should that person view themselves?

 

 

Xeon

Viola Davis joins the ranks of black females (e.g., Alek Wek, Missy Elliott, Nina Simone, Uzo Aduba, Gabby Sidibe, et al) who have at some point in their life have faced a tsunami of criticism and hostility for their genetics.

Come on man, how are you gonna put Viola Davis and Gabourey Sidibe in the same catagory?

Just look at them:

Image result for Gabby SidibeImage result for viola davis sexy
  Gabourey   Sidibe                                                         Viola Davis


Just about the ONLY thing those two women share in common is their dark skin!


Nothing against her as a person, but physically speaking Sidibe's lack of physical atractiveness has NOTHING to do with her dark skin and more to do with her weight, bodily shape, and the shape of her face.

Are you telling me that if all of her other physical characteristics remained the same but she was 5 shades lighter then all ofa sudden she would be considered attractive?

Look at that Mama June character from Honey BooBoo:


Image result for Mama june

She's got all the genetics you speak of.
Do you think SHE looks better than a dark skinned Viola?

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SMH. i give up on arguing with people who are totally off my wave length,  I hope Mel shares her thoughts on the opinionated post above. 

 

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Cynique

SMH. i give up on arguing with people who are totally off my wave length,

That's why I told you in the other thread to get out of the house!

If you'll just take a break and go outside you'll find plenty of species on YOUR wave length.

Infact, you can walk around in the grass and I'm pretty sure you'll find a perfect match squirming around...lol.

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I gotta feeling Mel will vet those remarks you made about Gabourey.  LOL

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Cynique

I gotta feeling Mel will vet those remarks you made about Gabourey.

My remarks were my opinion.

If someone wants to disagree and called Gabourey an icon of beauty they are more than welcomed.

If someone wants to say ALL Black women are beautiful regardless as to how they look, they are welcomed to do that as well.

But no amount of "girl power" is going to change the laws of nature or convince heterosexual men to stop finding femininity (which Viola exudes) attractive and instead call EVERY Black woman who bumbles down the street beautiful simple because she's Black.

Just like being Black doesn't automatically make you ugly, it doesn't automatically make you beautiful either.

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I don't think Gabourey is ugly.  she is just obese.    Her oval-shaped face is rather cute; she has nice features and smooth skin and pretty eyes.  IMO.  

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Cynique

I don't think Gabourey is ugly. she is just obese. Her face is rather cute; she has nice features and smooth skin and pretty eyes. IMO.

Ofcourse it's your opinion.

And it's the opinion of a heterosexual female....who IMO (lol) isn't qualified to judge the attractiveness of another woman!

What you're doing is an example of what is contributing to the low self esteem and confusion of young Black women all over America.

Too many Black women.....straight Black women....are giving their opinions of who THEY feel is or should be considered an attractive Black woman.
And when young and impressionable girls take these goofy opinions as facts and find out most Black men don't share them....they end up angry and confused.

It's a biological fact that what most women see as "attractive" features, most men don't.
I've heard many young girls look at a toned and muscular woman and say they wish they had a body like that because the muscles were attractive....not realizing that it was attractive to THEM but not necessarily to men.

As hard and as counter-intuitive as it may seem, I think women should leave the judging of other women's attractiveness to either homosexual women or STRAIGHT MEN.

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@Pioneer1These are your usual, eccentric ideas and generalizations that you sit in Starbucks, and dream up after a few observations that you are compatible with. Women are very hard on each other when it comes to judging each other's looks, not to mention being jealous and catty, and they are not that  keen on lifting the self-esteem of their peers who are potentially their rivals. You look at the world through pioneer-colored glasses.  B)   Whatever.

So, do you think only .women and gay men can judge the looks of men??  :o

 

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Cynique

So, do you think only .women and gay men can judge the looks of men??

Ofcourse not.
Anyone can judge anyone's looks.

Even if you don't find that particular demographic attractive, there are some universal traits of attractiveness going beyond sex or even race and culture that allows you to kind of "size up" who may be considered attractive and who probably would be regulated to the more unattractive category.


For example......
I don't have to be gay to realize that most women probably don't find these men very attractive physically:

Image result for ugly men

 

 


However women and gay men are the MOST qualified to judge on a man's physical attractivenss.
Because they tend to be attracted to that male demographic by nature, they notice a lot of minor details and subconscious traits that lesbians and straight men may not notice.

I don't believe this is just my opinion, I think it's closer to fact.

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@Pioneer1Sounds like an opinionated generalization to me. You been hangin out in Starbucks again? 

Being attracted to a man is not necessarily the same as a man being attractive.  A woman can be attracted to a brilliant dynamic man who dresses well, exudes a certain confidence and respires with animal magnetism but who does not have a handsome face.   And she may be turned off by an attractive man with handsome chiseled features  but who has a conceited cocky demeanor and talks, but can't walk a good game.  

Some women don't like pretty men and to others, power is a great aphrodisiac. Last but not least, one of a man's most attractive features in hidden in his groin.  Size matters.    

I think there are too many variables and nuances to take your "theory" seriously.

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Cynique

 

Being attracted to a man is not necessarily the same as a man being attractive. A woman can be attracted to a brilliant dynamic man who dresses well, exudes a certain confidence and respires with animal magnetism but who does not have a handsome face. And she may be turned off by an attractive man with handsome chiseled features but who has a conceited cocky demeanor and talks, but can't walk a good game.

Some women don't like pretty men and to others, power is a great aphrodisiac. Last but not least, one of a man's most attractive features in hidden in his groin. Size matters.

You're reading what I'm saying, but you're not taking time to COMPREHEND it.

If you DID, you'd realize that you're basically proving my point.....lol.

That point being.....
Although anyone can have an opinion about the attractivenesss of another, those who are ALREADY sexually oriented towards them are BEST qualified to determine how attractive they really are.

And your latest post basically backs that up by stating the various qualities a woman (straight woman) may find attractive or unattractive about a man that a lesbian woman or a straight man may not pick-up on or overlook...simply because they aren't interested.

Good job.

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@Pioneer1What point are you trying to make by posting pictures of 2 physically ugly men?     Since what i implied and what you claim is also your point, this point being that  perception of attractivemess is a subtle subjective determination that is in the eye of the beholder, then why even broach the silly subject?     Who needs your flawed ambiguous observation that only women and gay men  are qualified to judge attractiveness in straight males. If, as you also imply, physical attraction is universal, anybody can judge someone else's attractiveness no matter what their sex or sexual orientation is.  A straight man could very well understand what a woman would see in a man that wasn't physically attractive but  had a good personality and money, or in a man who had standard good looks like a movie star who was very photogenic.    

And in spite of your "revulsion", there are some men who might find Gabourey attractive. 

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Cynique

And in spite of your "revulsion", there are some men who might find Gabourey attractive.

Well there are "some" men who'll fine ANYBODY attractive.
As long as a person has a hole....they'll run up in it, lol.
But I NEVER said I found Gabourey revolting.
You may want to question Xeon on some of that language....not me.

 

 

point are you trying to make by posting pictures of 2 physically ugly men?

Showing you that even as a straight man....when it comes to extreme examples I can still judge somewhat whether or not some men would be considered PHYSICALLY attractive or unattractive to most women.




women or gaySince what i implied and what you claim is also your point, this point being that perception of attractivemess is a subtle subjective determination that is in the eye of the beholder, then why even broach the silly subject?

No, no, nooooo..........that's NOT my point.

ONCE AGAIN, my point is:

Although anyone can have an opinion about the attractivenesss of another, those who are ALREADY sexually oriented towards them are BEST qualified to determine how attractive they really are!

 


Who needs your flawed ambiguous observation that only women and gay men are qualified to judge attractiveness in straight males.

YOU...for one.....if you didn't already know this.
And it appears that you didn't.

So now consider yourself educated, lol.



If, as you also imply, physical attraction is universal, anybody can judge someone else's attractiveness no matter what their sex or sexual orientation is. A straight man could very well understand what a woman would see in a man that wasn't physically attractive but had a good personality and money, or in a man who had standard good looks like a movie star who was very photogenic.

NO, that's not always the case.
Infact, that's USUALLY not the case.
Sometimes a straight man can figure some things out based on experience and observation as well as what other men and women have told him.....but it's still not the same as having an inborn predisposition of being attracted to a certain group that allows you to focus on more details.

I'm not sure what gay men focus on the most, but most straight men focus MOSTLY on a woman's looks in determining whether or not she's attractive to him.
It's not the only thing, there are other factors...but looks are the biggest.

It's very hard for a straight man to naturally get inside the head of a woman to look at a man through HER eyes.  Most pimps and players can do it, which is why they tend to be more successful with women than the average man.
How many times have you heard a man who wants a particular woman who left him for another man complain about,
"Why him?"
"What does HE have that I ain't got???"


He's looking at attraction through HIS eyes, instead of hers.
So still, while anyone can judge....the BEST judges are those predisposed to find that particular group attractive.

I know you're smart enough to figure out what I'm saying, stop acting crazy and giving me a hard time on this.....you know I'm right.

Dont' just sit up and argue with me over NOTHING.

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@Pioneer1Well, you were the one who said i was making your point and that was my point, now you're backtracking and trying to do damage control, losing yourself in a maze of semantics and contradictions.  

You can contend til you're blue in the face and i will continue to cast a jaundiced eye at your generalizations and your insistence that you know how all gay men think and, further,  that you can speak for all straight men - and not back this up with something other than some anecdotal theory you conjured up in StarBucks because you are fixated on assigning certain traits to men and women and gays and straights, and blacks and whites, - while not possessing a degree in anthropology.    

i'm trying to give straight men the benefit of the doubt in the hopes that they are not as brutish and thick-skulled as you are portraying them to be.   Anybody  is capable of distinguishing between a mental assessment as opposed to a physical or financial one.   A straight man may not want to screw such a guy but i firmly believe that they recognize a good specimen of manhood when they see one. or am i dissuaded by your opinion that a straight man wouldn't understand what a women would see in a brilliant or rich man who is not physically appealing.  If they can't, they are in denial. And, everybody of all sexes and persuasions wonders what their ex-mate sees in the rival who has stolen the object of their affection away, because they are blinded by jealousy. You're skating on slippery slope when you make  your stringent conjectures.  

So we have to agree to disagree.      

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“Come on man, how are you gonna put Viola Davis and Gabourey Sidibe in the same catagory?”

You misunderstood what my point was. My point was having a darker complexion and Negroid facial features puts you at odds with the universal standard of beauty. I was very clear about what the standard is and that it is global. I’m not suggesting that I agree with it -but it is what it is. And nothing said in this forum or by anyone who is black is going to change it….

“Just about the ONLY thing those two women share in common is their dark skin!

Well, I agree. But if Gabby lost 100 pounds -why would Viola Davis be more attractive? What facial features would clearly make her face more attractive than Gabby’s? The structural shape of her face (considering if Gabby lost 100 lbs)? Her nose? The shape and size of her mouth? Spatial separation of the eyes? Her hair? WHAT? Again -what would make, Viola Davis’s face (in your opinion) more attractive than Gabby’s? Details please….


“Nothing against her as a person, but physically speaking Sidibe's lack of physical attractiveness has NOTHING to do with her dark skin and more to do with her weight, bodily shape, and the shape of her face.”
 

### Once again -I agree. Her weight is a distraction to what she really looks like. And her having a dark complexion only adds fuel to the fire (especially for Negroes). Black people seem to recoil (and for good reasons) to the fact that having a dark complexion lowers a females desirability ranking (when using the universal standard of beauty). The aversion to dark complexions is across the board in most of the world's cultures. Don’t think so? Do you know how many people are in China and India alone? Those two nationalities contribute to slightly under a “third of the world’s population”! For those two groups alone, which do you think elevates a woman’s desirability –a dark complexion or a light complexion? Among Arabic and Latinos (including Brazil), which elevates a woman’s attractiveness –dark complexion or a light complexion? In all of Africa, which color will give a woman greater social opportunity and conjuration –a dark complexion or a light complexion?

I can personally tell you a light complexion is seen as most desirable among Koreans, Filipinos, Indonesians, Vietnamese, Japanese, Malaysians, et al. Next to Africa, the Asian market sales for skin lighteners is very strong. Sales are very robust and on an upward trajectory! Skin lighteners are also very popular in parts of the Middle East, the Caribbean, and Latin America. Sorry if this offends you -but it is what it is….


“Are you telling me that if all of her other physical characteristics remained the same but she was 5 shades lighter then all ofa sudden she would be considered attractive?”

You didn’t consider the other factors I stated that align with the universal standard. Skin complexion is one factor in the triad. But to answer your question, in my opinion –no! She would still have an unmistakable Negroid face. I personally do not have an issue with it but in terms of global beauty standards, she most likely would fall short. But if she lost the weight, I don’t think she would be as unattractive as you feel. Just my opinion….

Let me further my point. In Singapore, there are three major ethnic groups, Malaysians, Chinese and East Indian. As far as bodies are concerned, the Chinese and Malaysians females have the better bodies, especially legs. The Indian women, not so much when compared side by side to the Malaysians and Chinese. But the Indian women are much more attractive in the face. It’s a no contest bro –TRUST ME! Now, this is what you want to hear –the Indian woman have much darker skin complexions than the Malaysians and Chinese. This harks to a notorious American Negro faux pas, “For a dark skinned gurl she really do look good!”


“Look at that Mama June character from Honey BooBoo:”

Ya know, I have no idea why you chose to bring this white woman into this discussion. Yes, she is very unattractive. BUT WHY DID YOU CHOOSE TO INJECT THIS WOMAN INTO A DISCUSSION ABOUT GABBY SIDIBE AND VIOLA DAVIS? We are discussing the opinions about the controversy of Viola Davis’s cover picture on Time magazine and your comparison to Gabby Sidibe (which I did not understand either).

“She's got all the genetics you speak of. Do you think SHE looks better than a dark skinned Viola?either).”

Uhhhhh…you really don’t want to go there. Your selection of this white woman was capricious and arbitrary! You picked her specifically to make a nefarious point. Honey Boo Boo’s physical appearance is nowhere near the average looking white female! Black women who look like Viola Davis are common! There is nothing unusual or extreme about the way she looks. I’m not suggesting that she is the standard –but she is not unusual looking! The picture you posted of Honey Boo Boo is unusual and extreme! E’uff said…..
 

 

 

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There are beautiful women in all complexions.  Of course, this is not a universally shared opinion.

Obviously, in western cultures, higher levels of beauty are often associated with people who have lighter complexions but as I've argued continuously this is a consequence of living in a white culture.

@Xeon, the colorism you describe in Asian cultures may actually have more to do with class. Darker skinned people are associated with the woking class, outdoor laborers. 

By the way, I think Gabby actually did lose about 100 pounds:

9780544786769.jpg

 

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Cynique

You can contend til you're blue in the face and i will continue to cast a jaundiced eye at your generalizations and your insistence that you know how all gay men think and, further, that you can speak for all straight men - and not back this up with something other than some anecdotal theory you conjured up in StarBucks because you are fixated on assigning certain traits to men and women and gays and straights, and blacks and whites, - while not possessing a degree in anthropology.


Your eye isn't jaundiced.
Your vision is yellow because of the straw from that big ass STRAW-MAN argument you've been erecting.

You've purposely IGNORED every balanced thing I've been saying concerning straight men and women and their abilities to judge members of the same sex in order to paint my position as extreme and onesided......and then proceed to go to war against it.

Because I realize this, I've come to the conclusion that it's a waste of time to keep repeating myself.



So we have to agree to disagree.

I'm afraid we can't, because YOU wouldn't allow THAT to happen.
If I DID start agreeing with you on ANYTHING (including respectful disagreement).....you'd either act like you didn't read it or CHANGE your opinion, lol.





Xeon


You misunderstood what my point was. My point was having a darker complexion and Negroid facial features puts you at odds with the universal standard of beauty. I was very clear about what the standard is and that it is global. I’m not suggesting that I agree with it -but it is what it is. And nothing said in this forum or by anyone who is black is going to change it….

I don't know if I'd call it "universal" standards of beauty.
The promotion of White women as the epitome of feminine beauty is a result of Western cultural imperialism and influence.

Can you find me one indigenous culture that HASN'T been touched or influenced by the
West that holds White skin, blonde hair, and blue/green eyes as standards of female beauty?



 

Well, I agree. But if Gabby lost 100 pounds -why would Viola Davis be more attractive? What facial features would clearly make her face more attractive than Gabby’s?
Her poThe structural shape of her face (considering if Gabby lost 100 lbs)? Her nose? The shape and size of her mouth? Spatial separation of the eyes? Her hair? WHAT? Again -what would make, Viola Davis’s face (in your opinion) more attractive than Gabby’s? Details please….

Well for one, her larger more open eyes.
Her thicker more lushious lips.
They may be the same complexion by Viola's skin seems to be more even toned and clearer where as Gabourey's is more "grainy" with dark patches.
Viola is smiling in the photo while Gabourey is not, but her teeth and smile are wonderful too.

In my opinion, fat or not Viola is generally just more physically attractive.
Her "negroid" features and complextion has little to do with this while her FEMININE features do.

 

Let me further my point. In Singapore, there are three major ethnic groups, Malaysians, Chinese and East Indian. As far as bodies are concerned, the Chinese and Malaysians females have the better bodies, especially legs. The Indian women, not so much when compared side by side to the Malaysians and Chinese. But the Indian women are much more attractive in the face. It’s a no contest bro TRUST ME! Now, this is what you want to hear –the Indian woman have much darker skin complexions than the Malaysians and Chinese. This harks to a notorious American Negro faux pas, "For a dark skinned gurl she really do look good!"

I haven't been aroune many Malaysian women.
The few that I have seen tended to be covered up because most of them were Muslim.
But I have seen Chinese women and Indian women and TO ME, not only did Indian women look better in the face, but their body was bangin' too....far superior to the average Chinese woman.

Most Chinese women I've seen tended to have slim hips and a flatter chest, which isn't very attractive TO ME. Where as most Indian women tended to have very wide hips and thick legs and breasts which to me is extremely attractive.

So I guess it's just a matter of opinion.



 

Ya know, I have no idea why you chose to bring this white woman into this discussion. Yes, she is very unattractive. BUT WHY DID YOU CHOOSE TO INJECT THIS WOMAN INTO A DISCUSSION ABOUT GABBY SIDIBE AND VIOLA DAVIS? We are discussing the opinions about the controversy of Viola Davis’s cover picture on Time magazine and your comparison to Gabby Sidibe (which I did not understand either).

Because your argument is that Gabourey and Viola are considered unattractive because of their African features and I brought her in as an example of a WHITE WOMAN with WHITE FEATURES who was still unattractive!

How does a White woman with fully so-called "European" or "Caucasian" features (and I say so-called because millions of pure Black Africans have the same features in East Africa) like small nose, small lips, blonde hair, White skin, ect......STILL end up being unattractive?

Because racial phenotype doesn't determine one's attractiveness in the first place.
You have attractive and unattractive women in all races and the pictures I provided illustrate that.

 

Honey Boo Boo’s physical appearance is nowhere near the average looking white female!

Lol.....you need to come to the Midwest!

I'll find you about 15 in every Wal-Mart.

 



The aversion to dark complexions is across the board in most of the world's cultures. Don’t think so? Do you know how many people are in China and India alone? Those two nationalities contribute to slightly under a "third of the world’s population"! For those two groups alone, which do you think elevates a woman’s desirability –a dark complexion or a light complexion? Among Arabic and Latinos (including Brazil), which elevates a woman’s attractiveness –dark complexion or a light complexion? In all of Africa, which color will give a woman greater social opportunity and conjuration –a dark complexion or a light complexion?

Every single one of these cultures and nations have been heavily influenced and colonized by White Europeans.
Western culture has left it's mark on the thinking of the people by not only telling them that White women are more beautiful, but that White men are smarter and White morality and technology is superior to their own.


But the strange thing is.......
As much as White men have tried to convince the rest of the world that White women are the epitome of beauty and femininity....THEY have been busy having sex with nearly every woman of color they have colonized.

If women of color...women with brown or black skin were considered so unattractive then my question to you is why did so many European men HAVE SEX WITH THEM by the milllions when they came to the Americas or went to Africa, India, or China?

They had millions of thier own White women to choose from, why go outside for the "less attractive"?

Infact, why are so many White women STILL going to Asia and Africa literally BUYING Black and Brown women as wives and sex partners?
I mean, paying HUGE sums of money to these women and thier families just for the right to have sex with them or marry them.....with all of these single White women available for them in the United States and Europe?

Something isn't adding up.......

If White women are in such demand, why aren't more rich White (or Asian, or African) men scouring trailer parks and poor sections of Eastern Europe offering money to them and their families to marry them like they're doing Asian and African and Central American women?



 

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@Pioneer1 Well, your first mistake was to say that i was making your point.  We should've let it drop at that.  My mistake was that i didn't know what i was arguing about because we seemed to have been going in circles  almost to the point of mixing apples and oranges.  Next time you come out with one of your revelations i'll just say, "so what else is new? :D 

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