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NAACP Says, Avoid Missouri.

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OK cool Mel.  Judging from the exchange it appeared as of you did not understand what Pioneer was saying based upon your responses.  If you got it great--I stand corrected.

 

Cynique, yeah I can't know what the support rate is for Black women of Black men.  But I do see so much focus on the inability of Black women and men to communicate and connect.  I know you are more likely to see this kind of conversation in  ATL, DC, and other places with large or majority Black populations.

 

We can look at marriage rate and see something as gone awry -- wouldn't you agree?  I don't have scientific data to back anything up, I'm just going on my observations. What do you think about your observations of the passing scene from your vantage point?

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2 hours ago, Cynique said:

Many have no problem encouraging a man who shows good potential and - is emotionally stable.  What they don't do, in enable an incompetent man. And why should they?

 

Exactly, @Cynique   Encouragement is different!   I will absolutely offer encouragement to a man doing his thing. That is, if  I feel he would welcome it.  I've found that some men don't want a woman to comment on "potential"  but will welcome it on a job well done.   

@Troy,  it appears you had a slight attack of myopic perception .  It seems to strike quite a few men who believe  women don't understand the topic or the words coming out of their mouth.   I'm not sure what triggers that behavior - but I know when it happens on twitter or blogs - women accuse men of "mansplaining".   

According to the U.S. census, 45 % of black households are married couples.  



Anyway,  I posed this question to my three daughters.   Two  of my daughters are dating black men and one is single.   So far, two  gave thumbs down to the idea  black women should support "good" black men.  One of my daughters dates a young black man who owns a car repair shop in Cincinnati.  He's looking to open up  a few more.  He doesn't have a college degree but owns his property including the repair shop and he also employs other young black men.    He is in his 20s...  

;;;

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Troy

Once again you've managed to articulate my point better than I have....lol.

Although I have to be honest, I didn't get the impression that Mel was MISUNDERSTANDING the point I was trying to make.
She was basically doing the same thing Cynique does from time to time....play games of DENIAL or ACT like she doesn't understand or can't relate to what I'm talking about, lol.

A lot of sisters, when they are in the "argumentative mode" will refuse to acknowledge any good or valid points you make or pretend they don't understand them just to dwell on the disagreements.


Like you I also prefered jobs where I could use my mind to produce more so than sweating my way through it.
I've alway had imaginary VISION and could see things from the beginning to the end.

The problem is when it came to the more complex academic studies of my senior year in high school and college, the subjects became a little too difficult for me to keep focus so I dropped out.

When it comes to solving PRACTICAL problems or doing PRACTICAL projects...hands on projects where I work directly with people....I shine brilliantly, but when it comes to academics of studying text books and trying to remember what I read and getting quized and tested on it my performance was often dismal.

 

 


Now I know brothers that get up and go to jobs they hate. They can't "work from home." If they miss a day they lose a days wages. They work to pay bills that can barely afford. They don't travel abroad. take vacations, or even live in very nice place the prospects for the future are not bright.

One of the reasons they hate their jobs is because they aren't getting paid enough for them.

Ofcourse you always have cats who want the GLAMOROUS jobs where they can dress up and avoid sweating.....but I tell brothers all the time, mopping floors from the rest of your life or driving a school bus or washing dishes....these jobs in and of themselves AREN'T BAD.
It's the pay that the problem.
If they payed about $20 or $30 an hour....a wage that would be comparable to what Black men were getting 60 years ago when they did these unskilled labor jobs....they could hold them down for the rest of their lives and live decently and even raise a family on them.

Somebody has to mop the floors and take out the garbage, but how much are you getting paid to do these jobs....that's the problem.


These Brothers need the support of their women.

Look, all of us do. It is just that the rich, smart, successful Brothers can compensate for it very easily, because they have far more options that the average man. The average Black man is just more vulnerable.

...and of course Black men should support Black women. The more vulnerable we are the more we need to support each other.

Seemingly the more vulnerable you are the less likely you are to get the support you need...

This often is the case and I think it's because women have learned to not respect a "needy" man.

I understand this to a certain extent, but the problem I have with so many Black women taking this position in this particular society is that they seemingly refuse to accept the role racism has played in denying Black men decent jobs with decent pay.

I guess that's what got me so heated about that Nicki Minaj video.
Seeing her walk past a group of Black men being beaten up by the police and walks by singing and smiling as if to say,
"Fuck them niggas....I ain't thinking about them.
That's what they get".


It's this cold blooded no longer caring about what is being systematically done to Black men attitude that is disturbing.
As if some sisters are more than willing to just capitulate and willingly join on to White male racism and sexism and leave Black men behind if it makes getting a few extra dollars.





Cynique
 

My comment would be that we are talking about a very basic tenet. Life is a survival of the fittest, where the strong thrive.


Cynique, now come on you know that's not true about the STRONGEST surviving.

Look at all these goofy weak and nerdy men walking around with lap top computers and cell phones who are millionaires and billionaires.

Look at Bill Gates or Zuckerberg....these guys are physically WEAK and nerdy as hell.

No, THIS society has been designed BY weak men FOR weak men to not only survive but thrive because it's based....not on jobs that require strength and physical agility and skill....but the ability to sit still for hours upon hours and play with computers and cell phones.
Things that not only DO NOT require a lot of strenth and energy but actually works against those who DO have too much energy and strength to tolerate that sedintery lifestyle.

Look how many STRONG Black men who are locked up behind bars because they displayed strength and bravery in a society where being weak and passive is often more prized in men.

In past societies they would be rewarded and admired for being muscular, tough, brave, good at phsycial combat...as they often are in the neighborhoods they come from.

But in this ARTIFICIAL SOCIETY....the weak nerdy man with fertility problems who can't fight to save his own life is rewarded with a clean criminal record and a good job.


 





Mel



Not sure what type of men lean on women but I'm thankful to have missed them.
 

You were born and raised in Brooklyn but now you're gonna sit up here and tell me you "missed" all the brothers who lived off of women or couldn't make it in life.

I don't hang out in New York but I've been there on several occasions and know it has it's fair share of dead beats and knuckleheads.
But just to be argumentative, you're gonna sit up here and basically tell me all the men YOU'VE known growing up shoveled snow, took care of their elders, and were good men who treated women with respect and never depended on women for any type of support....lol.

OK Mel.....lol.


 

Remaining "average" is a choice.

As Cynique mentioned "cream rises to the top" . High achievement is a choice

Statements like these lets me KNOW that you are not only out of touch with the average Black man/woman in society and don't seem to have a firm grasp on basic human nature.


Being average is only a "choice" to GIFTED people who have ABOVE NORMAL qualities but choose not to exercise them.

But to the AVERAGE person with normal average qualities....being average isn't a choice but a natural fact of life based on the limited options they were born with.

High achievement s a choice ONLY with those who have the ABILITY to achieve

If you are gifted with high intelligence....you can use it to achieve greatness or be lazy and choose not to.
If you are of average intelligence....you or capacity to learn will be limited no matter how hard you try; which is why so many people end up dropping out of college with tons of student loans.

If you are a gifted singer with an angelic voice....yes you have a CHOICE to develop your talent and be the next Mariah Carey or be lazy and neglect your gift.
But if you are average with an average


Now some people believe EVERYONE is born with some sort of gift or talent.
I don't know that this is true.
I've dealt with enough people who...although they weren't retarded or deformed....didn't seem to display any sort of extraordinary talent or intelligence in ANYTHING.

And these type of people were the majority of the people I've met and do you know what their biggest complaints were?
One of the biggest complaints of AVERAGE NORMAL people are the pressures and stresses they get from those at their job or in their family who often tend to be HIGH ACHIEVERS and are always pressuring them to do things they didn't have the physical or mental ability to do.

Again, stop making the mistkae of believing everyone can do what YOU can do.

This is one of the main reasons many of the problems in our community and in society in general remain unsolved.

The solutions are being designed on boards and committees by gifted people of high intelligence or talents that the average person doesn't have and so the programs and solutions are so difficult for the average person on the street to put them into practice they remain ineffective.

 

 

 

Anyway, I posed this question to my three daughters. Two of my daughters are dating black men and one is single. So far, two gave thumbs down to the idea black women should support "good" black men. One of my daughters dates a young black man who owns a car repair shop in Cincinnati. He's looking to open up a few more. He doesn't have a college degree but owns his property including the repair shop and he also employs other young black men. He is in his 20s...


I'm glad your daughters are dating Black men.

Too often the Black girls I'm seeing today, especially those on college campuses are going in two directions:

1. Either they're dating and marrying White men

2. Or they're lesbian

I don't know where it's coming from or what's sparking it but I've noticed those two things have become VERY popular among young Black women all over the nation from Seattle to Miami.

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SMH and LOL The  "Mansplaining" Mel referred to is  so right! Men either recycle what you say and feed it back to you as if it's  their idea, or they misinterpret what you say  because they hear what they want to hear.   So many times, i have to correct and remind a guy that what he says  is something i already said!  On my job, men would  unconsciously co-opt my ideas.  With Pioneer, he is constantly thanking me for making his argument, an argument he hasn't even articulated and, in fact,  has to have Troy translate what he is trying to say.  Men also  put words into your mouth and respond to something you haven't even said. Also Pioneer obviously thinks that the adjective "strong" only applies to physicality and that the idea of men having strong intellects is something he can't fathom.  To me, not realizing this is  being a linear thinker, rather than a critical one.  

 

i was struck by Troy saying once that he didn't bother to proof read his posts on this board because he figured we'd get what he was talking about.(he' has since greatly improved. )   Del just assumes you know where he's coming from and rarely puts his comments in context.  But - we are who we are.  I am hyper critical and like to have the last word.  Except with Mel.  She always makes her point.  She is a  personable, castrating woman.  :D

 

The male and female brains are wired differently. Therein lies the ongoing conflict.  Mars and Venus orbiting each other.  

 

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On ‎10‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 5:09 AM, Mel Hopkins said:

@Pioneer1   Not sure what you mean about support a black man or black men?  What does that even mean?   Talk is cheap..and even misguided when talking about going up against a very entrenched system such institutionalized racism ... If the president of the NAACP issues a travel warning for a state he lives in, then I'm going to support him in his observation that this spot ain't safe and  there's nothing he can do to keep me safe should I choose to ignore the warning.  All I got for him is "Thanks for the heads up". At least he gave a warning.  

Black men couldn't even keep us safe when it came to some of us being brought over by slave ships and enslaved...

Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember the story of "African men saying leave the African women and take us only"  I don't even think there were "his and her" slave ships.

 I think everyone was chained up together in the belly cargo-hold side by side top to bottom..

So please with that "our women" don't support us crap.     Now you want black women to run to Missouri with you too?  

Sarah and n'em  didn't bring black men into this world.

Black women made that choice.  

But now it's not enough that black male babies come from our behinds? That we house black babies  in our bodies for 10 months, have them suckle our breast for 24 more months and coddle black male babies at the expense of our black girl babies?  Now we need to continue supporting black grown azz men  in their shenanigans too?  

Just stop. 
 

TKO

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1 hour ago, Cynique said:

SMH and LOL The  "Mansplaining" Mel referred to is  so right! Men either recycle what you say and feed it back to you as if it's  their idea, or they misinterpret what you say  because they hear what they want to hear.   So many times, i have to correct and remind a guy that what he says  is something i already said!  On my job, men would  unconsciously co-opt my ideas.  With Pioneer, he is constantly thanking me for making his argument, an argument he hasn't even articulated and, in fact,  has to have Troy translate what he is trying to say.  Men also  put words into your mouth and respond to something you haven't even said. Also Pioneer obviously thinks that the adjective "strong" only applies to physicality and that the idea of men having strong intellects is something he can't fathom.  To me, not realizing this is  being a linear thinker, rather than a critical one.  

 

i was struck by Troy saying once that he didn't bother to proof read his posts on this board because he figured we'd get what he was talking about.(he' has since greatly improved. )   Del just assumes you know where he's coming from and rarely puts his comments in context.  But - we are who we are.  I am hyper critical and like to have the last word.  Except with Mel.  She always makes her point.  She is a  personable, castrating woman.  :D

 

The male and female brains are wired differently. Therein lies the ongoing conflict.  Mars and Venus orbiting each other.  

 

That s because no amount of exposition is going to reach some people. I used to be very cryptic. Then I tried to explain fully. I worked with a lack woman accountant and our White Male Supervisior, would ignore her and take her ideas as his own. I verified to her that she was not in fact losing her mind. Actually I don't assume that Pioneer knows where I am coming from or we have such a different mental approach. That it is near impossible to explain things. With Troy I get, unless he starts using statistics then it goes to the dogs. I don't think I have been mansplaing, since I find it asier to communicate ideas to you and Mel. Since the conversations are less combative or ego driven.

1 hour ago, Cynique said:

i was struck by Troy saying once that he didn't bother to proof read his posts on this board because he figured we'd get what he was talking about.(he' has since greatly improved. )   Del just assumes you know where he's coming from and rarely puts his comments in context.  But - we are who we are.  I am hyper critical and like to have the last word.  Except with Mel.  She always makes her point.  She is a  personable, castrating woman.  :D

 

The male and female brains are wired differently. Therein lies the ongoing conflict.  Mars and Venus orbiting each other.  

 

I am more Neptunian.

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Yeah @Cynique, I try to write posts that make sense.  I often reread something I wrote and find that the meaning was different than what I actually intended, so I edit them.  I'm glad I've gotten better.  The problem you described with my posts was more prevalent in my newsletters and website--which irked me to no end.  I spend more time editing my newsletter than writing it. Your assessment of Del was interesting too I often have no clue what he is trying to communicate, but I welcome his comments and commitment to the board.  

 

@Del I find it interesting that you would say that you conversations with Cynique and Mel, are "less combative or ego driven."  I've read a number of your comments to Pioneer1 and I found them unnecessarily combative.  Indeed, your negative comment about my using statistics (which I rarely do), was passive aggressive and also an unnecessary dig.  I think what you are perceiving as "ego" is disagreement.  It is fascinating don't appear to see these characteristics in yourself.

 

I will admit I'll say things to you and Pioneer in a manner that I would not do with Cynique or Mel, simply because they are women and Cynique is my elder. 

 

@Mel Hopkins, the reason I hopped in was that it is obvious that you and @Pioneer1 were not understanding each other (yeah I know you disagree with that now).  He assumes you were, "play games of DENIAL or ACT like she doesn't understand or can't relate to what I'm talking about."  I don't think you were playing a game--why waste the time.  But it is seems pretty clear you were not relating to what he was saying.  I only interjected because I thought you were not receiving anything he was saying.  I did not attempt to reiterate your comments because I did not think he was missing what you were saying.

 

So I was trying to help and it was dismissed as "mansplaining" :o  I guess that is cool since I am a man and we as Del says we are wired differently; though I do not think it has to be the source of ongoing conflict.

 

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Troy can you give me an example of each. Since it uncharacteristic of me to verbally attack someone. I don't seem to have that problem with Mel or Cynique, why do you suppose that is?

You were attempting to make a point using statistics. And you were making assumptions and using large numbers to make a point. And you were wrong. Perhaps I should care less when a fictional statement is made using statistics, or an illogical pronouncement is made. Truth and logic is important, I have been quiet on this topic because there is too much emotion. Which doesn't facilitate hearing opposing views.

 

I can assure I won't be aggressively or passively debating. I am going to be more mathematical and approach tangentally.

Btw congratulations on increasing the size of allowable attachements.

Hey Pioneer what city do you live. I may have read someone in your town.

Passing Olive Branches all the way around. Because Mistletoe is deadly.

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I remember once an ex of my partner asked her for money while we were dating. I felt really uncomfortable because it was obvious I was working in an office. While he was underemployed. That same partner also put me up for a few days when I needed it. so I have been in situations where I had more money than my partner and the reverse.

 

I also had a situation where I was visitng my partner. She went to work and I was unemployed. So I cooked dinner and maintained the house. That seems fair. However if one person is making the money and maintaining the home.  Their partner is useless. I can't comment about the sex and cheerleading issue. I don't know how common or uncommon my experience is since I don't know the statistical breakdown of the nature of people's relationship.

 

Perhaps women want a man that matches the environment they are in or the one they want to aspire to be a member .

 

We may be using strength , normal and good in very different ways. And sometimes that prevents us from hearing each other.

or not. Interesting convo from the sidelines.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Troy said:

I guess that is cool since I am a man and we as Del says we are wired differently; though I do not think it has to be the source of ongoing conflict.

 

@Troy  ,

 

If you perceived an ongoing conflict in language and delivery,  did I miss where you interpreted or explained my comments to Pioneer1, in an attempt to "help" him understand my point? 

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14 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Now some people believe EVERYONE is born with some sort of gift or talent.
I don't know that this is true.
I've dealt with enough people who...although they weren't retarded or deformed....didn't seem to display any sort of extraordinary talent or intelligence in ANYTHING.

And these type of people were the majority of the people I've met


@Pioneer1 

Yes, I believe EVERYONE is born with strengths and talents. Mine is being able to recognize those strengths and talents in others.   

 We all have our reasons why we seek out the people we find in life. Maybe you seek out people who are lost to help them.  Or maybe you seek out "average" people to exploit their vulnerabilities.  
 
We all operate on a wavelength that keeps us comfortable and allows us to achieve our internal and external goals.  


So If I am out of touch, it's a place I choose to be- because I will never seek mediocrity. 


It's my intention to look up to people. My comfort zone IS intellectual discomfort.   I don't ever want to be the smartest one in the room (or in this case on the discussion board.) I seek out people who share wisdom. 


The definition of wisdom is "knowledge into action".  

 

Aside:  Here, I learn so much from @Cynique  Her words, wisdom and life story are proof positive that black women can rise above any barrier set for us in any era.  I hang on every word that she writes because her eloquence in relating her experience is a treasure...

You may not know this but it's not  @Troy 's academic degrees that make him wise...(whether he exercises it daily -<snark>) - he has complete mind-body control ... Ask Troy about his days as a champion gymnast and swimmer.     Whatever Troy puts his mind to he accomplishes... He could actually write the book on "how to operate your earth suit".

 @Del 's  world (and multi-dimensional) view is enough for me to run to the board whenever I see his name pop up.   I want to know what he is revealed because I'm sure it will trigger my Aether experience.   I can then be reminded that the reality of this world isn't all there is to life.  @richardmurray Doesn't comment much on the discussion boards but if you read his works and his profile comments you'll immediately see he exercises his creativity without wondering if it's appreciated.  (by the way, yes it is. I marvel out your Je ne sais quoi - you remind me of a world traveler)  @harry brown always seems to put into prose  highlights of current events that antagonize the black community. I may not like it but I'm challenged by it.  And even @Xeon and you Pioneer have the courage to speak  the conviction of beliefs without trepidation on this board. Not sure of your waking life since you both hide under the cloak of anonymity here.  Still speaking your beliefs is a virtue.   

 


But I digress.

As you have indicated, since you look for people to prove your point you will find them 

As long as I look for people to prove my point I will meet them and  I do.    I don't look for people so I can say "people are average"... I look for people using all their strengths to achieve - so I can move forward with the confidence that anything is possible with this life.    I no longer need to see it, though, it's a firmly entrenched belief.   

The beauty of my life is I've passed on my ability to seek greatness in self and others to  my daughters and other young people I have had a chance to mentor.   Therefore, I've created a new group of people who seek to find the best in others and in themselves.  

So, enjoy the world you create while continuing to seek cheer-leading black women and sexual support for black men who choose to wallow in mediocrity.   

I'll continue to be out of touch and inspire (from the latin word inspirare which means to breathe life intoall the young people I come in contact looking for the best out of life. 

By the way, my youngest daughter asked her 20-something-year-old-entrepreneurial-no-degree-having-job-creating--six-figure-earning-ready-to-franchise-car repair shops-nationally-friend, if he needed the support of black women (or any woman) to do his thing .  He said that's not needed, only the support of the woman he's in a relationship with...and even that's not required.  

He did say what would make black men great is the support and mentoring of OTHER BLACK MEN.

Out of the mouths of babes... Thank goodness he's the future.

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5 hours ago, Delano said:

I can't comment about the sex and cheerleading issue. I don't know how common or uncommon my experience is since I don't know the statistical breakdown of the nature of people's relationship.

 

 

@Delano The way, @Pioneer1 broke it down  - support for "good" black men has nothing to do with one-on-one relationships  If he were speaking about intimate black on black relationships - I would have simply liked the post and kept on moving. 

He mentioned women were cheer leaders and for "money making women to forgo shoes and slide a "good" black man money for speaking out against racism...

 

Let me go copy what he wrote.."


"We need BLACK Sarah Palins who are in love with strong Black men and willing to get behind Black men who are actually protecting the community and their families.
We need Black women who are CHEER LEADERS for masculine Black men instead of Black women who praise Tupac and the neighborhood criminals.

Women are the cheerleaders.
Whenever you want a group of men to accomplish something, just hire a group of women to cheer them on and tell them how sexy they are when they do it and you'll see men perform superhuman feats!

But it can also work the opposite way.
If you want to drag a community down to the level of a beast, just find a way to condition the women of that society to like it that way and the men will do their best competiting with eachother to keep it in that savage condition.

I believe the Black community would be FAR more advanced if Black women collectively would take the love and respect that they heap on criminals, clowns, and homosexual Black men.....and concentrate it on Black men who are actually making a difference in our community

* * *

Simple......

1. When you see Black men take bold stands against racism whether at school or at work or in the community....VERBALLY praise him IN PUBLIC.
Especially infront of White people.
Let the public know that you support these type of men and let other Black people know it too.
That will encourage more Black men to take stands if only to get the praise for it.


2. HAVE SEX with Black men who are taking stands against racism or injustice.

Again, leave the altrusitic bullshit with the Whites who originated it.
Most Black men like women.....sex.
A lot of women don't like the idea of showing appreciation to a man who is fighitng police brutality or mentoring her child or even life-coaching younger men.....rewarding him with sex.
They feel he should be doing these things out of the goodness of his own heart.

But most of what men do they do for sex and money and if offering that "good brother" on your block a little sum'sum will keep him fighitng for the community....it's worth it.


3. OFFER FINANCIAL SUPPORT to Black men who are positive and doing things in the community.
If you're making tons of money and have some to spare, instead of putting it in shoes just hand the brother an evelope and say, "Thank you for what you're doing in the community".

A lot of Black men who are active in fighting racism and injustice don't hold steady jobs because his attitude won't let him. Many strong masculine Black men are seen as threatening and kept out of the work force and are struggling financially.
If you see this, help him out.

But one of the biggest things is the PUBLIC show of support.

Like I said before, women are the cheerleaders and much of what men do they do to get praise from and impress women.
If they don't feel that fighting for the community or being strong or even supporting their women will get them praise, attention, or sex....they aren't gonna do it.

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@Mel Hopkins and @Pioneer1 Some wealthy women need to cut you a check and throw some loving your way. And do this in a public way. That's the inference I get from the above statement.

@Mel Hopkins I believe everyone has a talent. Which is why I could see Trump as President, because he is a savvy marketer. I have read about 15,000 people and I have yet to come across junk. Perhaps you don't see it everywhere, because their diamond is under to much dirt. Your post is about being effective and not wasting time. So you will meet people that are a waste of your time because your focus and intensity is lost on them. Ev

 

 

Every soul is worth saving but not every soul is worth buying.

 

 

Thanks Sis,

Mr Neptune.

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I have also come to really that people live in their own worlds, and sometimes they are cognizant that there are other worlds.

I hung with everyone and they were cool with me 'cause I was cool with them. I had one person tell me that I had inspired him and they think about me everyday. I also had two people that I had words with also come back and thank me when I was leaving.

 

I am dreaming my world into existence, but that is easier because I am Black Pshychic from the Bronx who lives in Oz.

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Del

 

I worked with a lack woman accountant and our White Male Supervisior, would ignore her and take her ideas as his own. I verified to her that she was not in fact losing her mind.


Sometimes you have to be plain with people or else they won't see what you see.

Many Black people, especially a lot of Black women just refuse to accept that White people will steal your ideas and incorporate them as their own.  They grow up really believing in White people and seeing them as morally upright and generally "good" people and refuse to believe in the obvious.
I said before....most Black women aren't taught to beware of White men....they're taught not to trust BLACK MEN.

I ttook Black people nearly 20 years to wake up to the fact that White folks were STEALING Hiphop and R&B and trying to incorporate the art as their own.
They just refused to believe it.

Part of the reason is because many of our people are in love with White people and see them as so benevolent and righteous that they can't fathom that they'd do something so blatantly wrong and disrespectful.

On the other hand they have no problem believing a Black person would steal their ideas and often go around accusing eachother of being jealous and "hating" all day long.





Cynique
 

With Pioneer, he is constantly thanking me for making his argument, an argument he hasn't even articulated and, in fact, has to have Troy translate what he is trying to say.

 

The reason I constantly thank you for making my arguments is because you tend to be SO argumentative that in the course of our disagreements if I just veer off of my original point to to make another you'll OPPOSE that new one also....which often times leads to you inadvertingly supporting my ORIGINAL POINT.....lol.

As a hypothetical example......

I say that men should be incharge and protect and provide for their families.
Then you turn around and argue that both should provide for themselves and a woman shouldn't rely on her husband to provide for her.
But during the course of the argument I'll make the point that there aren't enough good paying jobs for men today and most of the good paying jobs are occupied by women.
Then you'll turn around and say how silly and weak that excuse is and how the men you remember while growing up took care of their families and made no excuses for their short comings.

And that's where I would thank you for making my argument....lol.

Just like you can look for a broken clock to eventuallly be right some times......
You disagree with me SO much that I can almost always count on you eventually saying SOMETHING that agrees with whatever point I made in the PAST that you.....at that time...refused to acknowledge....lol.

 

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Mel

Cynique is right, men and women certainly ARE wired differently and think differently.

And most women tend to do just what you're doing right now....

Using EXCEPTIONS as examples to prove her points instead of accepting the GENERAL RULES that we both should see in this society as it relates to Black people especially Black men.

 

You talk about the successful professional Black people you're surrounded by and when I point out the fact that these people are exceptions to the norm in which most people are of AVERAGE intelligence with AVERAGE abilities (as opposed to talents) then you switch it up and say....well....then.....those "average" people (who make up the majority) should ASPIRE to be like the exceptional people by working harder at success.


Talking to you is like talking to Obama.....lol.
When he was still a candidate he came to Michigan and we had an opportunity to ask him questions and a member of my group asked him what plans did he have to bring back good paying jobs to the inner cities for those without college education.
Instead of answering the question, he spent 7 minutes telling us about how he plans to make college affordable to ALL children despite their economic background and how he planned to create the atmosphere to produce more high tech jobs for the rust belt cities.





Let me make my points clear and concise:

1. Both men AND women should support eachother.
But MOST men need support and encouragement from the women in their community (family, friends, co-workers, ect....) to better themselves and excel in life.

Most men...not exceptional men.....but most men need an incentive that gives them a reason to do better and be better in life.
For most men those incentives come in the form of pleasures like sex, money, power, ect....

Expecting most men to be successful or try to better themselves for nothing or without the hope of a rewards is like telling someone to be good without promising them a heaven to go to.



2. I haven't met EVERYONE....and I'm willing to wager that neither have you.
So I'm not qualified to make the statement that EVERYONE has gifts and talents

I can only speak of the people that I've met, lived with/around and worked with/around.

Most of them were of average intelligence and of average abilities....although I HAVE met plenty of exceptionally talented people in my life. But again, they are the EXCEPTION and not the rule so I don't base my perceptions of life and what society has to offer on how successful THEY are.

What's my point?

Listen to me.....

My point is AVERAGE Black men will do just fine in a NORMAL society where they don't have so many pressures against them and obstacles in their way.
But in THIS society that is heavily influenced by racism both overt and institutional....AVERAGE Black men often end up losing and often times only the most EXCEPTIONAL Black men succeed.

In a system of racism that is designed to fail AVERAGE Black children, the exceptionally intelligent will often still succeed.

....but look what the system did to the majority of Black students!!!


In a system of racism that is designed to lock up the AVERAGE Black man, the exceptionally smart and law abiding Black man will remain free.

......but look how many averge Black men are locked up behind bars for doing the exact same thing average White men are doing but not being prosecuted for!

When you talk about the Black CEOs and business owners you know or who are in your family, you're talking about a MINORITY of Black people who are doing well because of talents, gifts, blessings, or an exceptionally good work ethic.

I get it.....I acknowledge that and their efforts.

However they are still a MINORITY of Black people who are doing well, which means that in this society the MAJORITY aren't doing well.

Why is that?

How can the majority of ANY population be wrong????



Would you go to a hospital where the MAJORITY of people end up worse than they were when they came in?

Would you start blaming the patients for their terrible condition and start pointing at the few patients who survive and do well as an example of who they should emulate?

Or would you investigate the HOSPITAL and STAFF to figure out what the hell THEY are doing wrong to produce such a high casualty rate in a place that is suppose to heal people and make them well?

If the majority of a given population (that majority being average) aren't doing well in a particular society, then I believe that something is wrong.....not with that population...but with that SOCIETY and it's infrastructure.

Black people are living in a society that has been designed to be against our progress and yes a few EXCEPTIONAL people manage to find success but that doesn't mean we should focus on them instead of trying to change the injustices that are keeping the majority of our people locked out of success.


....and that's how we MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN, right Cynique ! ;)

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2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

As a hypothetical example......

I say that men should be incharge and protect and provide for their families.
Then you turn around and argue that both should provide for themselves and a woman shouldn't rely on her husband to provide for her.
But during the course of the argument I'll make the point that there aren't enough good paying jobs for men today and most of the good paying jobs are occupied by women.
Then you'll turn around and say how silly and weak that excuse is and how the men you remember while growing up took care of their families and made no excuses for their short comings.

 Well, you did a terrible job of  making your case by presenting a hypothetical argument that you have concocted saying what i never said or implied. Hypothetical is by definition an unproven theory.  Give a specific example of my having said what you have transposed.  You put your spin on my  words and then reply  to what i haven't said.  i don't know whether this is a ploy or whether you are just crippled by your inability to be objective.  Yes, i am argumentive but you provide me with such golden opportunities to be so.

 

I can't believe that you continue to post  these long repetitive responses to what Mel has said.  It's like  nothing she said registered with you.  Instead of acknowledging what everybody else has repeatedly said in regard to you and her being from different worlds,  you keep droning on and on, making her argument for her.      

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Should men shoot  some cash to single mothers and service them. Since they seem to be raising more kids on their own than single Black men.

 

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12 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

How can the majority of ANY population be wrong????

 

@Pioneer1 Your arguments are inferior.  You've presented a false dichotomy and I haven't the time nor desire to refute each.  I'll just use your argument against you.

74 million people voted against 45* ,in the last election.   63+ million voted for him.  The minority decided who is sitting in the oval office today.    

Those you believe, are the current minority, those who chose to pull themselves out of the "average" pool, now control the fate of the average.   The "minority" of above-the-average people decide how much your time is worth per hour. The minority of above-the-average people decide if they will hire you for a job.  The minority of above-the-average people decide where you will live, what clothes you wear, what you eat and what kind of health care you deserve.

 

And you ask, How can the majority of ANY population be wrong????  

They can't be wrong.  They don't decide a damn thing. 


 

Now you can continue to excuse people for remaining average.  Citing all the things that are keeping them average - or you can look to the people living in the same society under the same conditions and follow their lead to success.   Because trust, the "minority" of above-the-average people aren't going to decide to change society so it will ease the pressures on folks too lazy to determine their own strengths. 


But then again maybe pounding the drums for mediocrity is to help you remain atop the heap of the company you keep.  Only you know your reasons.    

In the interim, the "minority "of above-the-average people who pulled themselves out of the "average" pile will continue to decide your fate and the fate of those who you continue to excuse for being mediocre.  

 

Case-in-point, policymakers have been telling the masses since before the 90s, those high paying jobs are not coming back.  Reagan said as much in the 80s.  

So, when Democratic Presidential candidate Obama, another one in the minority of those above-the-average folks, who came after the dotcom bust and its resurgence, gently told those in attendance, those jobs are not coming back, did they not believe him?   President Obama came after the fall of the Auto-industry and bailed it out and when it returned it went high-tech.  


Yet, someone was still asking about jobs that left before the turn of the century? 

Yes, thank you for proving my point.

Remaining average is a choice.    

President Obama was not the savior but he attempted to provide educational opportunities for the future generations and did.  (I already posted that black women are now the most educated in America)  But even Jesus couldn't save those too lazy to educate themselves about their own talents and innate power.  Hmm, was it the majority or minority that even crucified him for trying? 


But you seem to think cheerleading black women who provide sex to dead-from-the-neck-on-up men will raise up the black community.     

Ain't nobody got to time to for those whom won't help himself.

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I don't think we come from different world.

I think we just have different PERSPECTIVES of the same world.



Del

Should men shoot some cash to single mothers and service them. Since they seem to be raising more kids on their own than single Black men


If the mother is doing a good job and being a good mother....ofcourse.

Hell, how did you think WELFARE got started?
Instead of individuals giving money to women with children, the government just started doing it to maintain them.

 


I have no comment after the post Mel sent me from Pioneer.


I'm not sure what comment she sent YOU, but I've sent NO comments to her.
 

 





Mel


So, when Democratic Presidential candidate Obama, another one in the minority of those above-the-average folks, who came after the dotcom bust and its resurgence, gently told those in attendance, those jobs are not coming back, did they not believe him?


I believed him.
Because I knew that he.....like most of the presidents who came before him...wasn't gonna do a damn thing to BRING them back.

I'm beginning to wonder if Troy wasn't right after all about you not understanding or comprehending everything I'm saying.

When you repeatedly make statements like:

 

-"those who chose to pull themselves out of the "average" pool"
 

-"or you can look to the people living in the same society under the same conditions and follow their lead to success"

-"those too lazy to educate themselves about their own talents and innate power"

 

-"Ain't nobody got to time to for those whom won't help himself"



.....tells me that you still believe high achievement and being exceptional is a CHOICE for most people.



You can't conceive of the fact that some people don't have the intelligence or energy to accomplish what you or some of those in your circle have....and you seek to punish them for it.


Calling poor or even average peope who fall on hard times "lazy" or incinuating that they are in their condition because of personal choices or moral shortcoming is one of the oldest tricks that corporatists and conservatives use to DEFLECT from the socio-economic injustices they have created in society that have caused these problems.

Ofcourse everyone makes bad decisions from time to time, but again....is EVERYONE wrong?

Look, could you do me this favor?
Could you just answer this question to see if we're on the same page or even in the same "world":

Do you believe the MAJORITY of Black people in the United States are NOT successful?

When I say successful I mean it in the generally understood sense of being healthy, financially independent, with stable families and homes.

I'm not asking you for reasons for their condition, I'm just simply asking do you believe that MOST Black people in the United States today have or have NOT achieved atleast that basic level of success?





BTW.....
Don't think those little slick remarks about me exploiting people in my community are getting by me....lol.
I see you.

I might be nice and let it go once or twice, but keep on........

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The total number of voting age Americans who did not vote is much higher than the number who voted for Trump or Clinton.  That is the true majority opinion.

 

Whether you believe that all people are capable of greatness or not. The country generates too much wealth for the average people to be living the way they do.

 

Black or white, male or female, we all should be doing a better job of supporting each other. 

 

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On 8/16/2017 at 9:30 PM, Pioneer1 said:

BTW.....
Don't think those little slick remarks about me exploiting people in my community are getting by me....lol.
I see you.

I might be nice and let it go once or twice, but keep on........


@Pioneer1 I made my statement.  How you respond is your business. Just like I mentioned about being average, the choice is always yours.     Oh, and I'm never nice. I don't waste my time on it.

3 hours ago, Troy said:

Black or white, male or female, we all should be doing a better job of supporting each other. 

 

@Troy , Why?   

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Why? Because on a global scale there is far too much suffering, poverty, and violence. Collectively Humanity could do a much better job ensuring the well-being of our species.

 

Closer to home wealth inequality is at an all-time high. Americans can certainly do better than that. We just don't care enough about each other to try very hard.

 

We live in a culture where it is perfectly acceptable to lock up huge portions of the population. It is insane.

 

The icing on the cake however is the election of 45. It says a lot about our country, none of it very good.

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20 minutes ago, Troy said:

We just don't care enough about each other to try very hard.

 

Exactly.   This is why I ask "WHY" should we care. If we don't care about each other now. "Or even try very hard to care"  What is the impetus to care.  And clearly pain and suffering  isn't enough.    It's not like we all don't know what you've mentioned already exist.  We've existed this way for the last  2, 017 years.  Probably more if I add in Before Common Era -  

But only the strong survive...

 

So while I read your words, and was almost tempted to put a like on it - my other side says there has to be a reason why we should care ...and pain and suffering ain't it.  We know there's  a lot of pain and suffering -and that hasn't moved us to do anything before?.  

 

So there has to be another reason to care...THE WHY is what I want to know.     


I have a feeling, though, it has nothing to do with equity or making people comfortable.  We've built and contributed to this society and we sure didn't care enough to make sure it wouldn't be one that crushes the spirit.   Sure there a lot people sitting in prison but they didn't just get rounded up one day like it was an internment camp.   Incarcerating a large number of society happens when no one cares.   I know one black man who isn't in there thanks to me... I don't run away from jury duty.  I get called regularly because I VOTE in every election. But I digress.  

We're at the precipice,  and now some are crying "we will not be replaced" while others are looking for "women to save them", while others are looking for "us to support each other."     I think the real reason "Why" is because there's a huge shift underway -and there's a lot of uncertainty, people are scared shitless and NOW they want support.   

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Oh I get your question now. It is actually in our own self-interest to do more for others.

 

In a world where everyone is free to maximize their own potential, we all benefit. A rising tide lifts all boats that sort of thing.

 

Mel would you shave 500 square feet off your house in exchange for never having to lock the front door? That 500 square feet can go toward someone who is homeless. We can reduce crime by simply ensuring that people's basic needs are met.

 

Think about all of the great discoveries that will never happen because so many in our population cannot afford an education. Many of the most successful people who we think we can emulate did not have to pay for college Colin Powell did not have to pay to go to City College. When we started college we could borrow enough to attend. Today many students can't even borrow enough go.  Even if they could the quality of the education has gone down a great deal employers do not value it as much so the graduates fare less well.

 

Having large numbers of uneducated or poorly educated people does not serve our culture or Society.

 

 

 

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"Look how many STRONG Black men who are locked up behind bars because they displayed strength and bravery in a society where being weak and passive is often more prized in men."


Oh really? Can you tell me exactly how STRONG Black men are locked up for displaying strength and bravery? Please give details. And please also tell me what "culture or society praises and encourages men to be weak and passive". I know of no culture like that. More details please……
 

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5 hours ago, Troy said:

Mel would you shave 500 square feet off your house in exchange for never having to lock the front door? That 500 square feet can go toward someone who is homeless. We can reduce crime by simply ensuring that people's basic needs are met.

 

@Troy, No, I wouldn't give 500 square of my house  to anyone because are people are full of sh*t.  I can't even trust them not to lie to themselves. 

  What I would do,  is what I have done every day of my life.   I DO NOT SUPPORT people, institutions or entities that ensure someone will be homeless, incarcerated or beat down .  To be candid.. If you can't tell by now, I don't support most bullsh*t thinking or bullsh*t activities that folks participate in that have an adverse effect on our society.  

I don't wait until its fashionable - I live my life in a way that people or other living things aren't crushed under the weight of my decisions.    Case in point, I've just learned about godaddy and their game-hunting CEO now I'm looking to extract myself from using their services.   Peter Thiel founder of paypal - isn't someone I want to do business with so now I'm looking for another company (oh wait I see that's going to take me a minute) ...  Those are the latest on my list - show me who you are and how you harm and you can forget about me supplying you anything.  

This is why I'm not impressed by anyone running around trying to take down monuments and undo what they participated in to build up  over the years.  Why do you think I spend so much of my time working for FREE with people who are helping themselves - because  I believe  in focusing on those who are looking to make a change.  If we don't like results society is handing us  just STOP PROPPING IT UP!  

Edited by Mel Hopkins
Included a link regarding Peter Thiel
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America is functioning they way it was designed to function. If you believe otherwise you are confusing propaganda with history. 

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I agree Del.  Now image it everyone behaved as Mel described?  That would actually change things. America does not have to function the way it was designed.  I can, it must evolve.  45 may be the impetus to change that we needed.

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Mel

 

... I don't run away from jury duty. I get called regularly because I VOTE in every election.


Well, I vote regularly too...for candidates I actually like...and so far I have YET to be called to jury duty.

One of the things that has bothered me about the legal system is how they claim you're supposed to be judge by a jury of your PEERS.
Yet they pick jury members from a list of local registered voters.
Most of these are educated middle class people with good jobs and clean criminal records.
How are they "peers" to most people in the ghetto or living in poverty?

If a man convicted of a crime happens to be unemployed, poor, and Black.....then his PEERS are also unemployed, poor, Black...and male....so THAT'S who should make up the jury pool!


 

Oh, and I'm never nice. I don't waste my time on it.


Well if you have children you MUST have been nice to some man or men....lol.

Now are you going to answer my question:

Do you believe that the majority of Black people in the United States are NOT successful?



 

 


Troy

Black or white, male or female, we all should be doing a better job of supporting each other.


I believe the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT is the ultimate human entity that bears the responsibility in making sure all members of this society have their material needs supported.
They should be the one who makes sure no one goes without food, clothing, shelter, or healthcare.

I don't have enough trust in individual human beings being nice or charitable enough to provide support for those who really need it.

Mel's statments about people being lazy or only the strong surviving is a great example of the thinking of a lot of people and why we shouldn't rely on "good will" or expect a sympathetic population to step in and help those who are the most vulnerable.


You have people with all type of philosophies and moral points of view.
Some believe that poor people are poor because of moral issues and they deserve it.
Other's feel that poor people were born with "bad karma".
Others believe poor and sick people are "defective" and that they should be allowed to die so as not to spread their "defective genes".....like the Nazis used to believe.


You have ALL TYPES of views and judgements about poverty, some are rational and others irrational.
So you must have a government welfare system that by-passes all the opinions and moral judgements and just support the BASIC NEEDS of people who are not able to do it for themselves for whatever reason.

Just the basics....and if they have the talents or the smarts to do MORE then by all means do it.


It's the same with the sick.....
Some people believe those who are sick are sick because of poor decisions like drinking too much or smoking cigarettes.....and THEY believe those people should suffer from the consequences of those decisions while not realizing how cruel and torturing it is to make someone suffer and die from lung cancer simply because of a stupid decision they made as kids.

Again, others believe people get sick because of a genetic defect and that they should be allowed to die off.
We can't rely on support from individuals like this or even expect sympathy from them.
You have UNIVERSAL health care provided by the government to by-pass all of that foolish thinking and just help people who need help when they need it without judging them.



Xeon


Oh really? Can you tell me exactly how STRONG Black men are locked up for displaying strength and bravery? Please give details. And please also tell me what "culture or society praises and encourages men to be weak and passive". I know of no culture like that. More details please……


Look at all the gang members inside prison.
Most of these men are young, physically strong, and brave with a propensity toward violence.

1000 years ago in more traditional socities where violence and bravery were characteristics highly prized in men by other men as well as the women of that society.....these same men would have been HIGHLY respected and would receive honorary social status in those societies.

Most of these young men in prison are probably highly sexed and brag about all the women they were having sex with on the outside....another highly prized trait in the ANCIENT WORLD.

So the typical "ganster" in prison may be strong, brave, and violent....meaning he's willing to take action...and a sex machine which means he virile and potent.

NATURE MADE HIM STRONG.....but this society demonizes him.
In this society he is imprisoned for his behavior which is frowned upon and seen as barbaric and immature.

Now goofy nerdy men like Bill Gates and other techies are considered high in social status.
They may be weak and cowardly but in this artificial world THEY now have the wealth and the women are taught to go for them instead of the strong, violent, "thug" on the street who could give her many babies and actually protect her from harm.

Much of what is natural for humanity has been turned upside down in this artificial society.

But I suppose you believe that type of thinking is "twisted".....lol.

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I have set it earlier. Trump will be the most unifying divisive President.

 

Pioneer we must live in different worlds since I find your perspective unrelated to my life experience

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Pioneer I agree with you about the government, but keep in mind the government is run by people.  Right now those people should be doing a much better job.  Indeed they will have to if this nation is going to last more than a coupe hundred years.

 

Del are you saying 45's divisiveness will ultimately unify people? You may be right--at least I hope you are...

 

Del you may have been away from being around large numbers of Black people too long, while i don't agree with Pioneer on everything.  I understand where he is coming from.

 

Ya'll are not that dissimilar.   One similarity worth exploring is why you both choose to participate here.  Your time is valuable and you two can be doing anything else, but you have decided to provide this forum with the benefit of your insight and perspectives.  Why?

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23 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Well if you have children you MUST have been nice to some man or men....lol.

Now are you going to answer my question:

Do you believe that the majority of Black people in the United States are NOT successful?


@Pioneer1,  You must be confusing nice with kind.  I'm kind to people but I'm never nice.    The etymology (origin) of Nice - is  not know , ignorant, stupid... while people may use it to mean Kind - I don't.   I don't waste time being stupid of ignorant of people's foolishness.  

As for your question, the majority of black people in the United States are successful  in every sense of the word.  

The majority (73%) of black people in the inner cities of America  and the majority (80%) of black people in the suburbs are living  above the poverty line.  

This means 20% of suburban black people and 27% of inner city black people are poor.   Source: The Atlantic

 

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Troy what in your experience helps you understand. That Black Women should be cheerleaders to Black Men and have sex with them to encourage them in the struggle.

 

the reason I am here is because we are friends. And I believe in you vision. And not to sound arrogant but my background and experience draws on business and Magic. Which I feel can be of use to us. I think Cynique is one of the best critical thinkers I have met. Plus she has isn't some dry academic. Mel is my psychic sister. and her post about the esoteric and thinking sends me into interesting corridors in the mind of Del Strachen. Pioneer post are extremely challenging and know I just read them and don't respond. since his experience is valid. and provides a window for an alternate take on things. Also once or twice he mentioned an idea I had previously. And his start has risen in my eyes, when he worked out the Issac Newtown.

 

I spent many years dancing in the dark with a lot of Black people. until I went international in 1996.

 

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But I still got down with my Boys at Soul Summit. And the Family Stand when they were  at SOB's. nd all the hip hop parties in the Bronx. and a year at the paradise garage. And a year when I was a bike messenger.

 

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@Delano that dance crowd is not pioneers's scene, so I doubt you'll find common ground there.  I've heard variations of Pioneers sentiments expressed by many Black men over the years.

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