Astrological Prediction the end of Trump's Presidency

[Delano 1,193]

I don't even believe in free will. It is not possible to be free of cultural or societal influence, unless you are a sociopath 

[Kalexander2 134]

16 minutes ago, Delano said:

It is not possible to be free of cultural or societal influence, unless you are a sociopath 

 

There's a catch to everything, in a great sense there is 'actually' no such thing as free will because it's always an "either/or" scenario.  Most people think that means choice. 

[Cynique 2,308]

On 9/21/2018 at 5:52 PM, Delano said:

I don't even believe in free will. It is not possible to be free of cultural or societal influence, unless you are a sociopath 

@DelWell, using the criteria of you and Kalexande,r if we aren't free then we must be  enslaved. Since nothing is keeping me from striving for and achieving a goal, then i am not enslaved, so i must be free.   All humans are free to dream and imagine. Opting to not do something is exercising your free will.     

[Delano 1,193]

Yes Cynique there are choices to be successful in a presubscribed way. It's like gangoing members have choice but they aren't free .

Part of socialisation is surrendering some freedom. 

[Kalexander2 134]

@Cynique  Well said sister, those people who chose to thrive do so at the peril of the many who are able to only survive; who are free to make the same choice; again it comes down to that either/or scenario.  An offer or option makes for choices whereas need 'do or die' is a challenge, as you indicated; the option to refuse certain challenges is normally non-existent in the face of survival, unless, as Brother Del pointed out one is a sociopath or otherwise mentally challenged.   And I'm idly agreeing with the Brother, he's making sense. 

[Delano 1,193]

Freedom and choice or different. If you order from the menu in a restaurant you have constraints. You are to  choose amongst the choices given. 

You are given choices of Presidential candidates which is different than choosing the President 

[Kalexander2 134]

4 hours ago, Delano said:

Freedom and choice or different. If you order from the menu in a restaurant you have constraints. You are to  choose amongst the choices given. 

You are given choices of Presidential candidates which is different than choosing the President

 

I  must agree because this analogy comes back around to the "either/or" scenario.  Can you offer a comment as to why people are so eager to believe they are "free to chose" between things, and that their options are voluntary?

[Mel Hopkins 1,421]

3 hours ago, Kalexander2 said:

Can you offer a comment as to why people are so eager to believe they are "free to chose" between things, and that their options are voluntary?

 

@Kalexander2 Because words matter. 

 

Some confuse the words “choose” and “ decide” .  We are free to choose but deciding is limited to the options available. 

 

Case in point, the origin of choice is “perceive” . If we go back to the old english meaning - choice actually meant “free will”  so to choose is to exercise free will. 

 

 The origin of decide is “cutting off”.  In fact when you look at the Proto-Indo- European root word caedre - from where decide originates - we see the origin is to “strike down” - as in getting rid of the options. 

 

 Therefore, a man or woman chooses to run for president.  We, the electorate, decide whether he or she will represent us. 

[Kalexander2 134]

@Mel Hopkins  Thanks, sister Hopkins, I am happy to converse with you again here; what value then, would you place on the semantics of choosing, where choice isn't an option and, either/or happens without making a decision?

 

In other words, what role does ‘free will’ play when one or the other occurs without deciding. e.g., deciding whether or not to recognize the U.S. Constitution or laws where something else occurs no matter what decides.  More specifically, where is free will when the decision produces the opposing choice?  I understand matters may not turn out as decidedly planned, hence, is free will therefore a chance, and if so where's does choice come in?

[Mel Hopkins 1,421]

1 hour ago, Kalexander2 said:

 choice isn't an option

 

Choice is always an option because it is  dependent on nothing but thought. 

 

Choice is about you and your perception.  As long as you can imagine you can choose. 

 

God forbid, if you were locked up in an 8 x 10 cell 23 1/2 hours a day you could still choose.  Without getting too deep - in that cell you could envisage the perspective of a spider... you can choose to determine how a spider exist in the world... drawing on everything you witnessed about a spider before lock up - you can choose to create and recreate a spider like life..

 

You can’t decide to become a spider - it’s not a option for us based on our biological makeup - but you can choose to live out your days attempting  to become the highest life of spider - you can. That’s choice. That’s exercising “free will”. 

 

 

[Kalexander2 134]

@Mel Hopkins  Producing imagines in one's head and/or attempting to mimic those images for whatever reason, or not to imagine, is a far cry from free will, sister.  But let;'s go with your point, the spider scenario, truly a matter of a runaway imagination, or insanity you refer to as a choice by free will; and brings us back to what Brother Del pointed out about a sociopath or insane persons, and free will, I see the logic in his point.  Let's not get caught up in Donald Trump's suggestion that disabled or mentally challenged folks have a choice, please.

 

Yes, its only human everyone believes (or want to believe) he/she has a handle on their own life, I too disdain the concept(s) of destiny and fate because I want to reject the idea of no control over myself and my life.  Why should inevitable death, for whatever reason, be any different from other intangible events (whether imagined or otherwise) that occur where choice plays no part?  Is it, perhaps, we've fallen for the philosophical con of choice and free will, embedded itself into our conscience convictions and principles at a trance-like level?

[Mel Hopkins 1,421]

34 minutes ago, Kalexander2 said:

Producing imagines in one's head and/or attempting to mimic those images for whatever reason, or not to imagine, is a far cry from free will, sister. 

Why isn’t that free will. Who controls my perception or your perception for that matter?  Who controls what you think? And how you process  what you conjure up? 

 

But anyway this is the difference between choice or decision.  You read what i wrote ... and decided against it (“strike down” ) you didn’t choose it because you couldn’t.  You can only choose what you create - but you didn’t create my response.

 

So, now you have your answer as to why people think they have a choice - - in most situations since people rarely think for themselves - they don’t choose. They merely decide on commentary. 

[Delano 1,193]

31 minutes ago, Mel Hopkins said:

- in most situations since people rarely think for themselves -

Your thought process is a function of language which means your thinking is conditioned by your language and culture. If you can't think freely or independently of your culture,then how can you be free of all the mental and emotional prisons. Which are more effective than actual  prisons due to their intangiblity. 

1 hour ago, Mel Hopkins said:

 

Choice is always an option because it is  dependent on nothing but thought. 

 

Choice is about you and your perception.  As long as you can imagine you can choose. 

 

God forbid, if you were locked up in an 8 x 10 cell 23 1/2 hours a day you could still choose.  Without getting too deep - in that cell you could envisage the perspective of a spider... you can choose to determine how a spider exist in the world... drawing on everything you witnessed about a spider before lock up - you can choose to create and recreate a spider like life..

 

You can’t decide to become a spider - it’s not a option for us based on our biological makeup - but you can choose to live out your days attempting  to become the highest life of spider - you can. That’s choice. That’s exercising “free will”. 

 

 

Your example makes my point of deluding ourselves that we have choice by imagining situations in which we do. However you could argue that if I you believe you are free, than you are. Which is the appeal of religion and perhaps philosophy. You create some sense of control and order. In order to forget we are flying through space on a rock following a flaming ball of gas. At about 86,000 miles per hour. 

[Mel Hopkins 1,421]

2 minutes ago, Delano said:

Your thought process is a function of language which means your thinking is conditioned by your language and culture. 

 

@Delano  this question excites me!  First, understand I’m answering this in the spirit that what you’ve written is a theory and not a fact.  If it were everyone in the culture would be exactly the same. This forum would simply be an echo chamber and we would have nothing to contribute.  - 

 

Our thought process is NOT a function of language and culture...our thoughts are independent of  communication. It is only when we seek to transmit to another what we’ve conjured up does it get tricky. 

 

 When I think, dream or even contenplate it is in symbols and pictures - and then attempt to translate what I have envisaged  into a symbol someone can understand.  

 

BUT none of that is predicated on our ability to think freely.  

[Cynique 2,308]

I could draw the conclusion from this discussion that  "freedom" is an unnecessary word, because it is a status that does not exist. Implicit in all the individual contentions is that nobody is totally at liberty to do anything they want  because extenuating circumstances  come into play and corrupt the purity of the word "freedom". Choices and decisions are  rejected as being examples of freedom because of what motivates and influences them .   Freedom,  if nothing else, is a paradoxical state of mind  wherein people are free to believe anything they wish because freedom isn't a reality.    

 

 

.

[Kalexander2 134]

1 hour ago, Mel Hopkins said:

Who controls my perception or your perception for that matter

 

Obviously, you control how you see or interpret something.  However, if you see a spider and interpret the spider as 'a person who is' untrustworthy it is your choice to do that, but it doesn't alter the reality that what you see is, in fact, a  spider, yes?  That makes your interpretation or your perception toothless in the face of 'free will.'  Hence, is more probable people think they have free will.  The authors of the U.S. Constitution did the best humans can do, not out of free will but because it was simply the best they could have done, a document by any other means is simply the opposite they could have done; also free of will; the same as if they did nothing at all.

21 minutes ago, Cynique said:

 "freedom" is an unnecessary

 

Love you sister, Cynique, but how dare you sum-up in a short paragraph what the truth is of this matter!!!

[Mel Hopkins 1,421]

13 minutes ago, Kalexander2 said:

However, if you see a spider and interpret the spider as 'a person who is' untrustworthy it is your choice to do that, but it doesn't alter the reality that what you see is, in fact, a  spider, yes? 

 

I’m not the arbiter of what someone perceives.

 

Perception is personal.  Perception happens through my senses.  I can perceive the world how I choose. -BUT  I cannot perceive what another receives. 

 

I can only decide to accept or reject the interpretation of what someone else perceives.  I.e, you perceive the sky to be cerulean blue - I decide it’s not. 

  

The spider analogy is to illustrate even if you’re locked up in a cell - you’re still free to choose even when there is nothing left for you to decide upon.

[Delano 1,193]

1 hour ago, Cynique said:

I could draw the conclusion from this discussion that  "freedom" is an unnecessary word, because it is a status that does not exist. Implicit in all the individual contentions is that nobody is totally at liberty to do anything they want  because extenuating circumstances  come into play and corrupt the purity of the word "freedom". Choices and decisions are  rejected as being examples of freedom because of what motivates and influences them .   Freedom,  if nothing else, is a paradoxical state of mind  wherein people are free to believe anything they wish because freedom isn't a reality.    

 

 

.

Yes that's is my belief 

[Kalexander2 134]

33 minutes ago, Mel Hopkins said:

I’m not the arbiter of what someone perceives.

 

You don't have to be either, as sister Cynique commented "nobody is totally at liberty to do anything they want because extenuating circumstances come into play and corrupt the purity of the word "freedom". Choices and decisions are rejected as being examples of freedom because of what motivates and influences them.   Freedom,  if nothing else, is a paradoxical state of mind  wherein people are free to believe anything they wish because freedom isn't a reality."  

 

These are the expressions, words, their meanings, and how used we're stuck with for personal learning and developing ourselves. Not acknowledging them and calling the rejection free will or choice is meaningless and distracting.  I must take your point, however, of how one may pass time in jail, either reflect or simmer in misery; want to call that free will of choice, it's okay since that's all we have to make sense of what we do.

[Delano 1,193]

@Mel Hopkins if language and cultural aren't shapers then why so many similarities between members of the same loci. I am not certainly  if thought is capable with outb language. Letters numbers are symbols without being symbolic. 

[Kalexander2 134]

9 minutes ago, Delano said:

language. Letters numbers are symbols

 

Indeed, it's we have to make sense of our worldview!

[Delano 1,193]

Here's a list of Trump's legal exposure. 

 

http://fortune.com/2018/09/21/donald-trump-lawsuit-investigation-charges-news-update/

[Mel Hopkins 1,421]

34 minutes ago, Delano said:

 

@Mel Hopkins if language and cultural aren't shapers then why so many similarities between members of the same loci. I am not certainly  if thought is capable with outb language. Letters numbers are symbols without being symbolic. 

 

They aren’t shapers but rather tools to communicate.  

 

Like someone mentioned in another post “code” - you learn a code you don’t necessarily think in the communal code.   

 

Even in the same immediate family there are nuances that are unique to each.  

 

So, as I mentioned earlier - language shaping thoughts  is a concept/theory-  I reject.  I especially reject the notion that without language there can’t be thoughts...language is an expression of thoughts - and it’s lousy at best. 

 

Still, if we spend all day discussing this, it won’t change the genus of choice/ choosing is in perceiving/creating.  

 

[Kalexander2 134]

7 minutes ago, Delano said:

Trump's legal exposure

 

Which was the point of this most interesting discussion, turned legal and Constitutional mandates.   I'm impressed by how your analytical skills have grown.  It's true what's happening is unprecedented and the end, how it comes will be equally unprecedented.  Please keep a close eye on the Kavanaugh/Ford situation, whether he's confirmed or not will mark the first move by the GOP, without democrats, to impeach.  These are scary but interesting times to be alive, witnessing the beginning of the end of America as we know it.  Yes, there's some wishful thinking there, but mostly just a sign of the times.

[Delano 1,193]

42 minutes ago, Kalexander2 said:

I'm impressed by how your analytical skills have grown. 

You are just noticing what is apparent to everyone else. 

[Troy 2,767]

39 minutes ago, Kalexander2 said:

I'm impressed by how your analytical skills have grown. 

 

LOL! Man oh man I know you've been making overtures to @Delano lately but he is is likely to take this as an insult since the implication is that his "analytical skills" were previously deficient or that agreement with you on the 45 issue is an indication of analytical growth. 

 

That said, a move to impeach 45 will not be initiated by the republicans -- regardless of the outcome of the Kavanaugh nomination.  Man it is amazing an allegation from HS can derail a career in ones 50's

 

I'm not even sure impreaching 45 is a great idea.  This will put Pence into office and give him an opportunity to look great (easy in comparison to 45) and make it harder for the Dems to beat him in 2020. 

[Delano 1,193]

@Mel Hopkins granted I am not trying to convince you. But my question still is unanswered. Why do members of a group have similarities if language and culture aren't influential. Or accents and regional/local dialects. 

Yes Troy how does a person become analytical overnight. 

[Troy 2,767]

The discussion of “freedom” should be spawned as a separate conversation.

 

The allegations against Kavanaugh would probably make an interesting conversation.  It looks to me at this point Kavanaugh will make the supreme court.  If he does not it will be a sign of real Republican weakness. They control the Senate.  The Democrats seem to have taken a page from the republican playbook, our political process is a mess... 

 

@Delano Language does indeed impact the way we communicate and think this has been demonstrated in a variety of studies.  NY's see white fluffy stuff dropping from the sky in the winter as snow where other cultures have up to 20 different words for the stuff.  I use the phrase "packing snow" for snow that is good for making snowmen.  For people who have never made snowmen have not need to be able to understand or think about the difference.

 

It should be pretty obvious for the conversation on these forums that language is insufficient for explaining the similarities or differences between people.  Experiences, including education, are stronger factors.  As @Mel Hopkins people indicated sharing the same genetics, reared in the same household, and obviously speaking the same language can have completely different world views  

[Kalexander2 134]

2 minutes ago, Troy said:

LOL! Man oh man I know you've been making overtures to @Delano lately but he is is likely to take this as an insult since the implication is that his "analytical skills" were previously deficient or that agreement with you on the 45 issue is an indication of analytical growth. 

 

That said, a move to impeach 45 will not be initiated by the republicans -- regardless of the outcome of the Kavanaugh nomination.  Man it is amazing an allegation from HS can derail a career in ones 50's

 

I'm not even sure impreaching 45 is a great idea.  This will put Pence into office and give him an opportunity to look great (easy in comparison to 45) and make it harder for the Dems to beat him in 2020. 

 

My failure to notice something doesn't make it deficient, nor does my agreement with Del on DT's presidency mean anything special.  I disagree republicans will not impeach to salvage the GOP from impending doom.  And, Pence will never sit behind the desk in Oval office once DT is gone, he's just another, soon to be, a statistic in Mueller's crosshairs.  Dems are too cocky right now, they'll wait while Republicans seize the moment they'll see as an opportunity.  

[Delano 1,193]

@Troy my position unlike K2 is unchanged so it is not I that is agreeing with him. After a couple of reversals he agrees with me. 

Not even Trump can dodge his legal exposure. Twitter helped get him elected it also is chronological evidence that will assist in his ouster. He has no concept of the truth. Which is problematic for him in a court of law. 

 

The main issue with the Stormi Daniels and the defamation suit is that his testimony creates legal exposure and the Daniels case will force him to open his accounting records 

[Troy 2,767]

@Kalexander2, if 45 is impeached, as you are Del are predicting, who do you think will replace him as president?

 

@Delano, again I agree with your overall assessment of 45, we only disagree on the timing of his removal from office.  I'm not trying to be an instigator, but I don't recall K2 flip-flopping on this issue. He volunteered to give me $50 the same time you did.

[Delano 1,193]

The implication from K2 statement is that I am now showing analytical ability. Which implies it was lacking previously.  

 

Individual differences in a family can be due to individual differences. But how do you account for group similarities. @Mel Hopkins and @Troy

[Kalexander2 134]

7 minutes ago, Troy said:

who do you think will replace him as president

 

It probably won't matter, DT's base and his opposition are going to so busy killing each other, while the National Guard, stand guard.  At worse, a Constitutional crisis is going to turn the country into a lawless freefall.

 

4 minutes ago, Delano said:

implies it was lacking previously

 

Maybe not, just unnoticed by me.  

[Troy 2,767]

@Delano the same dynamic that explains the similarities explains the differences. 

 

For example, you and I, despite some disagreements expressed on these forums, have a lot more in common than I have with my sister. Some of it could be our gender, our shared educational experience, or just our genetic predisposition. 

3 minutes ago, Kalexander2 said:

Constitutional crisis is going to turn the country into a lawless freefall.

 

I know there are many far left wing people who believe (or wish) for this, this seems highly unlikely at least in the short term (our life times).

[Delano 1,193]

or we could both be a part of the same group. I don't know why there's such resistance to the idea that members of a group share some similarities  with other members of the group. 

The Brothers in my neighborhood liked hip hop and old Kung Fu movies. What about you and your homies @Troy

40 minutes ago, Delano said:

You are just noticing what is apparent to everyone else. 

 

11 minutes ago, Kalexander2 said:

Maybe not, just unnoticed by me.  

Twice, perhaps third time lucky.

[Mel Hopkins 1,421]

21 minutes ago, Delano said:

But how do you account for group similarities. @Mel Hopkins and @Troy

 

Symbols.  Except I’ve never experienced group think - but rather people trying on “identity”

[Delano 1,193]

Can you elaborate how symbols explain the similarities @Mel Hopkins

[Mel Hopkins 1,421]

5 minutes ago, Delano said:

Can you elaborate how symbols explain the similarities @Mel Hopkins

why when you , @Delano explained it perfectly in the Cynique’s Kaepernick post when you spoke of the genius of Apple - which is an old symbol made new again...

 

They’ve made a conscious effort to “fit in” with a group -  I’d even say that it’s a choice because they perceive themselves an identity that goes  with being an Apple head. 

[Delano 1,193]

I would say symbols are chosen or given meaning by the group. So symbols can't be divorced from the group that created it. The same is true for language. Personally I don't believe symbols have meanings in and of them selves. The reflect the culture that utilises them.

[Troy 2,767]

@Delano I was into hip-hop, but not really that much into kung-fu movies.  If I grew up in DC I would have probably been more into go-go --just because of the experience of being exposed to it.

 

If i grew up in a white neighborhood I probably would have been into rock.  I was first exposed to it in high school, but since it was considered "white music" I did not start to enjoy it until I was an adult.  Now my peers in the south, western New York, philly were much more into fuck which I really enjoyed -- even more than rap which at the time was mixed funk music.  

 

So the music I enjoyed was as a youth was based up a decision between choices presented to me, but I did not exercise my "freedom" and "choose" the music I enjoyed until I was an adult.  I no longer allowed peer pressure to decide my musical tastes.

 

I know many other people, including my homies, are like this as well.  The key give away is when they say "I listen to all types of music," it is almost an warning that the music they will be listening to like, when you get into their car, will not conform to the stereotypes of "group similarities."