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Troy

What do you think of the ongoing battle between Pionner1 and Kalexander2

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Troy you have undermined your own argument. Poverty and poor socialisation skills lead to violence. The majority of domestic violence incidents involve a person being under the influence of alcohol.

When I was asked by admissions why I wanted to got to Grad School I said, I am always getting into punch outs at work. And I heard that having an MBA would curb my inherent violence. The director said that is the number one reason people pursue degrees. It's either that or masturbate. 

9 hours ago, Troy said:

- even though I was not talking about nations, but individuals.

The President declares war, and the last time I checked that was an individual. 

Can you name one war that was declared by the people not the leader. 

@Troy.

I will attempt to show the fallacy in your argument. Why aren't there more Phd that are champion boxers. Because writing papers is an easier way to make money than getting hit in the head. Does that mean Phd are less violent or aggressive. I don't know but there absence doesn't prove your point. 

The last time I was in a fight a couple of guys were trying to rob me. They got my money but one got a bloody lip. I was in Grad School at the time. 

I have been on this sire for years. And I believe I have only mentioned my degree after Troy mentioned his numerous degrees made him more knowledgeable about statistics. My friend you are playing with the truth loosely. 

I very rarely mention my degrees when I meet people. I think it's never but I am not certain. 

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 What we do know for sure, is that violence can be hazardous to one's health, and if one values one's life, an alternate way should be sought to settle a dispute. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand this, - yet violence is a common occurrence and prisons are filled with its perpetrators.  

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Del I won't argue with straw man, nor will I argue for absolutes.  There are no absolutely when you deal with human being, so you can always fine an exception.

 

I'm speaking about people in general, so if you want to believe that Phds are just as likely to commit crimes as a highschool drop out and that there are no differences between to the two people, then carry on. We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

I see the reason you continue to avoid answering my direct questions is that doing so will reveal the obvious.  But you won't do that. You waste time finding some exception to the general case.

 

In the Cosby case, if he was still living in the 'hood without the wealth and education he probably would be more "rapey."

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Del

The majority of domestic violence incidents involve a person being under the influence of alcohol.


Not only is this a great point...alcohol abuse and related violence cuts across all socio-economic lines.

Perhaps the only difference is wealthier more educated people have the money and other resources to cover up their crimes and bribe the victims.



Prisons create a stable work force


Do you mean by extracting labor from the prisoners?

 

 

 



Troy



if you want to believe that Phds are just as likely to commit crimes as a highschool drop out and that there are no differences between to the two people, then carry on.
 

The very well MAY be just as likely to commit crimes.....just not the same TYPE of crimes as a less lettered man.
Whereas the uneducated man engages in petty crimes of larceny or prostitution.....the highly educated man engages in bank fraud, embezzlment, and other white collar criminal activites.


I haven't gotten a response from you about that experiment....lol.
If it's your argument and conviction that education makes men less violence and less prone to physically reactions from mere insults.....why don't you go to highly educated Black men and insult their mothers or children and record the results.

Right now that is just theory......
But this experiment will provide EVIDENCE.

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See this is what makes debating you guys impossible: Del does not answer any directly posed questions and Pioneer (like) Del continue to introduce extraneous issues that have nothing to do with the core point I've made.

 

Pioneer we were talking about violence initiated because of minor slights like talking about one's mother, when you cherry picked my quote you took it out of context. 

 

Pioneer, as an educated man, I'm not about to go up to anyone and talk about their mother.  Your proposed "experiment" is just silly. Did you really expect me to do that, to disprove your point?

 

You are Del are so desperate, you'll dredge up anything you can come up with to confuse and muddle the point I made, and still stand buy, which is:

 

Less educated people are more likely to react violently when someone speaks about the mother than more educated people.  This includes additional other perceived personal slights like stepping on ones shoes or getting cut off it traffic.

 

All these issues raised about presidents sending people to wars, degenerates like Bill Cosby, or white collar crime are besides the point.

 

Pioneer says he would react violently if someone spoke about his mother.  Again I suggest this is a function of his education.  Del refuses to answer the question because he knows admitting that he would behave in such a fashion would make him look childish.  Plus Del does concede points easily -- instead he obfuscates the issue with unrelated points and engages in name calling (like calling me elitist when he knows full well I'm not). 

 

While Del does not concede points easily he will do it from time to time.  Pioneer on the other hand never admits he made a mistake, was wrong, or even misunderstood something (@Delano pioneer must be a fixed sign right?)

 

Obviously, as I pointed out to @Chevdove, these issues are not as cut and dried as my bold faced statement above makes may make it seem.  

 

 

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Who's surprised that everybody is pointing fingers when it comes to this debate.  i can't resist jumping into the fray.  Scuse me, Troy if i steal some of your points.

 

Violence is in a class by itself; it is mindless and spontaneous.   Discussing other types of crimes and who commits them is irrelevant to the discussion. The  traits which foster and  trigger violence in a person are the same ones which make him unlikely to pursue a higher education, a goal which requires discipline and higher intellect.  When alcohol becomes a factor, one's metabolism enters the picture and this is something an individual cannot control. An educated person who commits a violent act when inebriated, regrets his lack of good judgment once he sobers up.  Most likely the only thing an uneducated person  regrets when he sobers up, is that he got beat up or arrested.  

 

Mob violence is the result of gullible people being manipulated by agitators.  If these agitators are not educated, they are more than likely "smart".  

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On 7/7/2018 at 2:55 AM, Troy said:

There was a study that showed less educated people get more upset by perceived slight than more educated people do.  

This is what you said initially. So you are changing your argument to suit your point. 

 

You  say I am touchy about my education. I point out that i only brought it up because you were saying how many  degrees you  had in an argument. That we had more than a year ago. It is relevant to make my point. I'll stop dredging up the truth or show the history or basis of the argument. 

 

You don't believe I'm posting my true thoughts or feelings. You are confusing me with another poster. 

 

So I will  either agree with everything you say or i won't disagree. 

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@Delano, You still have not answered my question.  I won't pose it a 4th time. 

 

Actually when I was writing about you being touchy about your academic credentials, I was thinking about your recent reaction to K2's questioning them.  You obviously feel they are important, but you won't come out and say it now. 

 

Your education distinguishes you from your less educated Brethren -- embrace it 😉  Seriously, if you don't know no one else will... indeed a problem in our culture we don't value educational achievement: it is as if learning is something white boys do. 

 

How can I know if you are posting your true thoughts? When I ask you a direct question, for clarification, you ignore it.  So I, reasonably, assume you are hiding what you truly believe as not to undermine your argument, or to appear elitist, to protect Pioneer, or for some other reason I can not devine.

 

@Cynique There is psychology that explains mob violence.  It explains why otherwise compassionate people can be moved to do very evil things

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@Troy

I don't think educated people are different than uneducated people. Some people are more cultured, more mannered, more polite. I prefer style over class. Anyone can create their own style. Class is more social status. 

 

I was asking K2 those questions because I wanted to know why he believed something that isn't true. What i didn't do was try and convince him. 

You are projecting on to me. I think learning is more valuable than education. However like  K2 and Cynique you are free to have your opinion about me and my motivations. 

The 🔚

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Education is different than socialisation. What about education makes people less prone to violence? Since you seem to believe that. I don't believe that and  I have said that indirectly.I recently had someone say to me they only talk to people with a Masters. Like I said before I hung out with all the types of people. A barmaid said she thought I was aloof when I came to the bar. 

I am arrogant not elitist, you may be both. Pioneer is arrogant and democratic. Cynique is an intellectual snob but not arrogant. Mel is confident and class conscious. there may be some disagreement about these assignations. I am open to debate that is open.

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Now the question can be asked: "What do you think of the ongoing battle between Troy and Del?" For me, the old saying  about "one looking at the cow's head, while the other is peering up her ass", fits this situation.  Not mention that these 2 combatants are caught up in a contest to see who can lay claim to being the most misunderstood.  But do they understand themselves? Are they guilty of what we all are?  Sometimes failing to see ourselves as others do because of being either too subjective or in denial.  Bottom line,  personalities invariably get in the way when engaging in a debate.

 

When it comes to a violent reaction to having your momma dissed, which is the bone of contention between Del and Troy,  a lot hinges on the connotation given to the word "education".   There is such a thing as an "educated fool", while wisdom and good judgment can be learned from the school of hard knocks.  Violence is unpredictable because it's emotional. So is there a definitive conclusion as to whether an educated person will handle an insult to his mother better than uneducated one.  Only if you replace the word "educated" with the word "sensible" and "uneducated" with the word "impulsive". Are we done yet??? 😲                                              

 

@Del IMO, "class" is an indefinable factor.  You either have it, or you don't. It's something money can't buy.  Many people fall into the middle income bracket but this is not the same as being middle class because middle class  is about your  value system, not your pay check.  When it comes to style,   it can be either good or bad.  And, BTW, could you be more specific in accusing me of "projecting" when i make observations about you.

 

 

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All is fair in the fight between principle and ignorance; provided that is, the principle is moral or aspect of a fundamental assumption.  Brother Troy's supposition, although limited, I'm sure, can only be based on what he knows about the other party.  With little more, it's perfectly permitted for him assume by way of intrusive questions that may be taken as insults.  And why should he care since he has no control over the other party's innocent, common core ignorance?

 

Ignorance needs no validation - nor appreciation for being anything but insignificant ranting of a mentally exhausted mind forcing itself to maintain some form of clarity.  They value whatever their mind is capable, usually without sound judgment of definitive information.  Most may never truly know his-self because they will never accept the reality of being a 'loser.' 

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@Cynique, as I wrote in reaction to Chedove this is not a black and white argument, the subject is much more nuanced as you last post illustrated. 

 

Still I'm stubbornly trying to get Del to coneed that not only is there is a difference between having an education and not having one, but that it is also better to have an education. 

 

Of course there are educated fools and brilliant people who have no formal schooling.  again I'm talking about the general case.

 

My point about an educated person being less predisposed to reacting violently over a personal slight does not mean that the difference is causal, but that there is certainly a correlation.  Of course there are always exceptions, outliers, and anomalies.  To use these to loosely related exceptions like, Bill Cosby, just to refute a point seems disingenuous to me.

 

In the final analysis, Del won't answer my question "why should anyone bother to get an education?" Because the answer is obvious and it would dismantle his argument.

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11 hours ago, Troy said:

OK @Delano, why should anyone bother to get an education?

To make more money

 

Cynique  my statements about class still apply using yiur definitions. 

You detest Pioneer which makes you intolerant of his arguments. I just struggle with Troy's style of argument. 

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@TroyWell, the argument about the value of a college education was thrashed out when Pioneer made his case for black men not really needing to go to college. and got a lot of flack for saying this. Not surprising, no minds were changed and no consensus reached.  

 

Considering that Del has advanced degrees, if he so chooses, he  is qualified to speak on this subject because he can imagine how deprived his life would be  if he didn't have an education.  So, what you want him to do is to say you're right and he's wrong when it comes to the desirability of having an advanced education because he is proof of this. He, on the other hand,  thinks that since you have admitted there are common exceptions to your generalizations, this absolves him from conceding the point you are trying to make.   Incidentally, I don't think the  example of Bill Cosby supports either of your arguments because what Bill Cosby has  are honorary  degrees and ones he acquired by hiring someone else to write his thesis.   And his MO of taking advantage of women who passed out after he gave them drugs,  wasn't actually violent; it was, instead, despicable and sneaky.  Finally, Cosby's "education" wasn't what elevated his lifestyle. His comedic talent. is what earned him fame and fortune.  And so it goes...

 

@Deli posted this before i read your response, Del.  You are making assumption about my detesting Pioneer.  That's a strong word.  i'd describe myself as being impatient with him because he thinks he's an expert on black people.  And I don't agree that style is the same as class.

 

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Where did I say class and style are the same. 

 

I wasn't aware someone wrote his Phd. 

 

Perhaps detest is too strong a word. For the lack of affection you have for his style of argument. 

 

In a debate i would rather have him than your sycophant. 

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Cynique are you saying that rape isn't an act of aggression? 

What word you use to describe your feelings toward Pioneer?

 

@Troy can you mention some examples where you have seen education make people less violent. You went to more schools than i so you should have many more examples to illustrate your claim. 

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Fortunately, i don't rely on syncophants when i debate.  

 

The story about Cosby hiring people to write his dissertation has been floating around for a long time.  i think  somebody even offered proof of this. I tend to believe it's true because Cosby is the type who thought his money and power allowed him to live by his own rules, not to mention that he's never exhibited any great intellectual prowess. 

 

IMO Style is created in attempt to enhance your social status. The kind of class i'm talking about is innate, not social; it has more to do with being well-bred.

 

 

 

 

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Just now, Cynique said:

Fortunately, i don't rely on syncophants when i debate

Isnt it comforting to know you have a knight in "shine" armour to protect your honour?

Well bred speaks if pedigrees and pure breeds. There are both high class and low class people that are concerned with breeding. Our tiki torch wielding compatriots and the Royals. I coukd have just used the Royals since Prince Phillip makes crass statements. That betray his aristocracy. 

 

Touch e - > My post was written at the same time as your style class addendum. 

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1 hour ago, Delano said:

Cynique are you saying that rape isn't an act of aggression? 

What word you use to describe your feelings toward Pioneer?

Rape can involve physical assault, or non consensual sex.  One is an act of violence, the other is an act of violation.  Cosby didn't beat up the women he raped he simply stole him some nooky without their permission.  (Many non consensual "rapes" go unreported because, for some women, it ain't that serious  nor worth the trouble and this includes marital rape.)  Of course, Feminists  and Me-tooers don't like to admit this because it dilutes their agenda. 

  i don't dwell on my feelings for Pioneer.  My reaction to him is usually a knee-jerk one.  As soon as he starts pontificating, thoughts of disagreement just automatically come to mind.  His bare-faced lies about my sending racy pictures of myself  to him left me nonplussed. 🤨

 

40 minutes ago, Delano said:

Isnt it comforting to know you have a knight in "shine" armour to protect your honour?

  Comforting? No.  Amusing? Yes.

 

44 minutes ago, Delano said:

Well bred speaks if pedigrees and pure breeds. There are both high class and low class people that are concerned with breeding

But people with real class don't try to flaunt  it, They just let theirs speak for itself.  Understatement is a mark class.  At least this is the way it used to be.  Today, money is the name of the game.

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@Delano People get an education "to make more money."  See this is what I mean; I do not believe that you think so little of humanity that even you believe what you wrote.  Many people go to college to improve themselves I take course from time to time to acquire more knowledge.  Indeed I teach to acquire more knowledge.

 

We all read a variety of things to learn more about the world so that we can better navigate it, to appreciate and enjoy it more. I'm surprised you'd give such a shallow callus response to the question of why people get an education.

 

Del perhaps I was not clear because clearly or you are not understanding what I wrote. I never said education makes people less violent. I said there is a correlation.  If you reread my earlier post, you'll see I did not say it was causal relationship between violence and education. 

 

I said their as a correlation: one only need to look at the educational levels of those currently incarcerated for violent crimes and compare it to the general popular to see this correlation.

 

Let's try this: Why did you bother to wasting all that time, energy, and money getting an MBA Del?  Why to you continue to read books?  Are YOU doing all of this just to make more money?  

 

@Cynique, initially I agreed with you regarding Cosby, but I decided not to bother with challenging what he did as violent.  I think sexual assault is a form of violence.  If Cosby did that to one of mine, he would have some serious problems (I don't care how many degrees I have, somethings just bring the ghetto out of you 🤬).

 

If Cosby paid for his degrees, then his situation would just make my point.

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 Sexual assault is violent.  But not all rape involves physical battery.  Date rapes are usually just a girl giving in, in spite of not wanting to have sex. The same for marital rape.  But-  i guess rape is really in the eye of the beholder -   or in the "vajayjay" of the victim.  🙄  

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On 7/7/2018 at 11:21 PM, Pioneer1 said:


Troy

There was a study that showed less educated people get more upset by perceived slight than more educated people do. They are measurably more upset. They want to fight if you talk about their mother or accidentally step on their sneakers. These people will literally murder you if you cut them off in traffic.

I can't remember where I read this, but there was also something else related about the "honor culture." It is the same reasoning that got all the poor uneducated white people to shoot each other to death during the Civil War.

3 hours ago, Troy said:

Del perhaps I was not clear because clearly or you are not understanding what I wrote. I never said education makes people less violent. I said there is a correlation.  If you reread my earlier post, you'll see I did not say it was causal 

You are w implying uneducated people are more prone  to violence. You may disagree but that statement is similar to more educated people are less violent. 

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7 hours ago, Troy said:

Del perhaps I was not clear because clearly or you are not understanding what I wrote. I never said education makes people less violent. I said there is a correlation.  If you reread my earlier post, you'll see I did not say it was causal 

You are implying uneducated people are more prone  to violence. You may disagree but that statement is similar to more educated people are less violent. 

 

Yes Troy most MBA are working not for profits and charities. Or people went into i investment banking because the long hours made them better people. (sarcasm) 

MBA programs list the average salaries of its graduates by discipline or has that changed. 

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6 hours ago, Delano said:

I am not prepared to argue about if rape is an act of violence. I am in agreement with Troy. 

I'm not prepared to argue about rape either since I'm not an authority on it.  Even the courts can't always reach a verdict about it.  A college campus might be a good place to take a survey, since rape in all of its variations is a common occurrence there.  

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28 minutes ago, Cynique said:

A college campus might be a good place to take a survey, since rape in all of its variations is a common occurrence there.  

Education clearly isn't reducing some forms of aggression. 

@Troy

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@Delano you may have missed my question why did you get an MBA?

 

Yes I am implying that uneducated people are more prone to violence.  I'm not saying that education, or lack thereof is the cause, but there is a correlation would you agree?

 

@Cynique, what Cosby is accused of doing is a degenerate move.  Now that I'm back in the dating scene, I cant image doing what Cosby did to anyone.  He is a low-life.  This is not date rape where "no" means "yes." He He incapacitated people by drugging them without their consent and sexually assaulted them.  He really belongs in jail (assuming he is guilty).  If some female I was out with drugged me then started shoving thing up my rectum.  She better just cut my throat while she is at it cause when I wake up -- she was I had 4 Phds

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I wasn't trying to exonerate Cosby.  What ever he did while his victims were asleep, the sex was non consensual. which makes it rape.  But, whether it was "degenerate" or not is a matter of opinion,  Just because the women were drugged does not mean he was doing freaky things especially if it was something consenting adults would do without giving it a second thought.  i think one of the things one woman vaguely remembered him doing was sucking her toes. 😛 

 

We seem to be having a problem with the term "assault". To me, it is synonymous with violence.  A lot of women prefer the less volatile  term "violated" when a man uses her body without her cooperation.   

 

This is why rape so often goes unreported because it is so hard to prove, unless the victim has been beaten up.  

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What?! Cosby drugging a woman to suck on her toes -- he is a freaky ole devil.

 

Well I don't think you are trying to exonerate Cosby Cynique, but your word choice does suggests some level of "condoning."  For example, you wrote the women were "asleep" when in fact they were drugged and knocked unconscious.  It was not like they laid down and took a nap. "Violated" seems like a euphemism too when describing what Cosby did.  

 

I'm not trying to give you a hard time Cynique, indeed I initially defended Cosby as if he were a victim of a conspiracy rather than a victim of his own sick behavior.  Remember the documentation I shared over three years ago explaining how each accusers accusation was questionable

 

Well they "proved" Cosby "violated" that woman in PA -- and Cosby's $3MM pay off did not work!  Cosby probably was never accused because he could always write a check...

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OK they say the 3rd time is the charm... @Delanowhy did you get an MBA? 

 

Humm, could if have been because you were interested in bettering yourself?

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So my experience doesn't match your description. 

4 hours ago, Troy said:

Delano you may have missed my question why did you get an MBA

Better job, it did increase my income.

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LOL! you are a wiley one aren't you. 

 

Just confirm that you have not beaten up anyone lately and I'll rest my case. 

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Interesting Bill Cosby as one person isnt acceptable to prove my point. But me as your sole example. I guess you didn’t see where i asked you to provide some examples from the many Universities you attended. 

@Troy

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While Del and Troy fall back and re-group, i will respond to Troy's remarks.

 

2 hours ago, Troy said:

What?! Cosby drugging a woman to suck on her toes -- he is a freaky ole devil.

You were the one up in arms, preaching about him being a "degenerate".

 

4 hours ago, Cynique said:

...Just because the women were drugged does not mean he was doing freaky things especially if it was something consenting adults would do without giving it a second thought.

 

2 hours ago, Troy said:

For example, you wrote the women were "asleep" when in fact they were drugged and knocked unconscious.  It was not like they laid down and took a nap. "Violated" seems like a euphemism too when describing what Cosby did.  

i later said the women were drugged in the same post you alluded to.  Also  the euphemisms  were ones the rape victims, themselves, used.

 

You allowed yourself to get caught up in  putting your daughters in the place of  these rape victims, and this seems to have magnified your empathetic indignation.    

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