Pioneer1

Troy It's ONE STEP in the process of attempting to get you to understand that just because something is a CONCEPT (such as "social constructs"), that doesn't mean it's not real or doesn't exist.

Troy No, I wasn't familiar with it until you just posted it. Obviously not, but I read about it? So simply READING about something qualifies you to make snap judgements as to whether or not you'd like to spend the rest of your life there? Lol....hey man, I got some brochures I wanna mail you if you're in the mood to buy some property! So you are telling me, with a straight face, that you know so little about what life was like in America, for a Black man, in 1821 that you cannot decide which period you would like to live in? Seriously?! I'm not sure why it's so hard for you to understand the importance of making an EDUCATED decision. It's not as if 2020 was SOOOOO phenomenally better than 100 or even 200 years ago. Did homicides stop in 2020? Did diseases stop in 2020? Was there no more poverty in 2020? Were there not MILLIONS of Black people locked behind bars in 2020?

Troy So you you believe in a jolly fat bearded white guy who maintains a naughty and nice list and flys around faster that the speed of light with reindeer distributing toys made by elves in the North Pole, commonly know as Santa Claus? To answer your question directly again: No. Why should I?

Troy You are “not sure” about 1821, are you kidding me?! You’ll do anything not to consider point. I wasn't around back then to observe the environment so that I could make an educated comparison. Were you? So you were telling me you would rather live in 1921 the United States? Again, I wasn't around back then to observe it and make a proper comparison. You talk about Negroes getting lynched every other week, but did you think about the Negroes getting SHOT ever other HOUR around this nation not only by racist Caucasians but by eachother in 2020? And that's been going on since the late 80s. It's hard to believe Black people were getting murdered more in 1921 or even 1821 than in 2020.

Yes. See how easy that was to answer a simple "yes" or "no" question?

Troy OK, if your definition of “existence” means anything that can be conceived in one’s own mind or things that exist elsewhere in the multi-verse, well sure, Santa Claus exists. I'm glad we agree...but it's not MY definition....it's THEE definition. If you discounted the existence of something simply because it exists ONLY in the mind then you'd have to say IDEAS don't exist. Come on man. If you are now going to try to shoehorn that definition into one to justify the reality of a social construct you’d be hard-pressed to do that. Actually, no, you do that every day of the week ... never mind. My question for you is why would I have to "justify" the reality of something that we both agree has been constructed? If it's "constructed" then that means it was built; it IS. The word "outcast" is a social construct used to designate certain people. If we are both talking about "outcasts"....you obviously accept their reality even if only in concept for the sake of discussion.

Troy OK then, Santa Claus existed in your space/time continuum, but I did not experience that timeline. Well, keep in mind that just because YOU didn't experience something in your timeline (parallel universe??) doesn't mean it doesn't exist. While something may exist IN a Universe, it's "existence" isn't limited to a particular Universe. But atleast we're making progress since you now acknowledge the existence of Santa Claus! Now we can move on to social constructs.........

Some would argue that there is NO SUCH thing as "existed" except as a word. The argument says that -that which DID exist....DOES exist, even if it exists in a different state than before. "Yall can't handle that one......"

((shakes head)) So did I.

Troy but my first response was abundantly clear. Your response was a DIATRIBE. An unsolicited strawman of presupposed descriptions. I didn't ask you did you believe in the existence of a "jolly fat bearded white guy who maintains a naughty and nice list and flys around faster that the speed of light with reindeer distributing toys made by elves in the North Pole." I asked you do you dispute the existence of Santa Claus. It's a simple YES or NO question, yet you refuse to answer it. Delano ...and as for you. You should be ASHAMED of yourself. Displaying such pitiful yet OBVIOUS grand-standing and contrariness.

Troy You tell me. Would you like to go back to 1821, or 1921? Not sure about 1821, but 1921....why not? AfroAmericans collectively were doing MUCH BETTER in 1921 than they were 99 years later in 2020. We had our own land, could build our own houses, and had our own businesses and hospitals. Our families were also more intact and there was less confusion among us. That is an interesting statement I can’t think of a scenario in the United States in which the historic levels of wealth any quality can be justify or construed into being something good. You're thinking in broad NATIONAL terms, while I'm speaking in INDIVIDUAL terms. I have more wealth than most of the homeless people I pass by on the street. I don't have a drinking problem nor do I use drugs and I save my money and spend it wisely. The wealth inequality that exists between me and MANY homeless people can be explained by my more responsible spending and social habits, not some sort of injustice Would you prefer someone take half of YOUR wealth and give it to a homeless drug addict in order to eliminate "inequality" between you two? This has divided even more and exacerbated our differences. If you mean it's divided the AfroAmerican community even more...I agree. But if you mean it's divided Caucasians and AfroAmericans even more..I disagree, because Caucasians were never aligned with you to begin with even if they ACTED more like they were. Perhaps social media just EXPOSED the already existing divisions, but it didn't exacerbate it. Caucasians are no further away from desiring to get along with you than they were before the advent of social media...lol. There are People doing real work in their communities however it is increasingly difficult to gain a meaningful following. These people don’t have time to post bullshit on Instagram. I know you're right because I'm one. Or atleast I was one before the Pandemic of 2020 shut much of the society down. I didn't rely on social media to do my work in the community, I did it the old fashioned way by hitting the shelters and street corners.

Troy First.....will you please answer the question. Do you DISPUTE the existence of Santa Clause? YES - NO - YOU DON'T KNOW After you answer, then I will proceed and tell you EXACTLY who Santa Claus is! LOL....is this what you and Del learned in college? How to evade questions, or respond to them with a flurry of unrelated questions of your own?

Delano I have discussions to exchange ideas.I am not trying to convince or convert How can you have a discussion with anyone when you refuse to answer simple questions they ask you? I asked you a simple question and you gave me a statement about convincing and conversion totally UNRELATED to the question I ask, lol. I asked you do you AGREE that Santa Claus exists in the minds of some adults and children? It's a relatively simple question.

Delano I hear what you're saying, however to keep it simple- I need you to clarify a statement for me: You said: Does this mean that you agree that Santa Claus DOES exist in the minds of some adults and children?

Troy ????? You posted BEFORE Delano and myself? I wonder why I didn't see your comment earlier. OK I’ll bite; there is no jolly fat bearded white guy who maintains a naughty and nice list and flys around faster that the speed of light with reindeer distributing toys made by elves in the North Pole. You're denying a statement that was never made...by me in this thread. I said Santa Claus exists. I didn't say a man of THAT description exists. The question remains, do YOU...Troy....dispute the FACT that Santa Claus exists? And if so, on what grounds? Del When I was a preteen. I used to do logic puzzles. When I was a preteen I used to do something else...lol. The structure is as follows. You make a statement, then your assumptions. Then your conclusion. So if you follow the assumptions to heir logical conclusion your statement is logically true but it maybe false overall. I understand the point you're making but I don't think it's accurate enough. The way you outlined it was: STATEMENT -> ASSUMPTIONS -> CONCLUSION And LOGIC was the thread that ran through them to keep them aligned with eachother. Perhaps a more accurate way of making your point would be to say that the LOGIC (not "statement") can be CORRECT (not "true") even if the original statement was false. Similar to your "Men are taller" analogy..... I can make a false STATEMENT that humans have only 3 fingers on each hand. A man lost one of his fingers. The logical conclusion is that he only has 2 fingers left on one of his hands. Again, the statement was false, but the logic was CORRECT (not "true").

Troy Sure he did, don't fixate on the young Malcolm regurgitate the white devil stuff from the NOI. Think about what he was saying upon his return from his Haji, wehn he was speaking for himself Then you understand why he was killed. He was killed for many different reasons, some known and some unknown. However I'm not confusing the Malcolm of the NOI with the Malik Shabazz after his last Hajj. I know he had a change in philosophy and social outlook. However the question is did he believe in making an alliance with Caucasians or trying to unite with them in some way after that change...and the answer is emphatically NO. He made it clear that they could HELP his organizations...not JOIN them. Exactly -- which is why he was killed. Same with Fred. No, no, no....you're conflating the two. MLK was killed for different reasons like Malik...some known and some unknown. But Dr. King was killed AFTER he started re-assessing his integrationist approach...not before or while he entertained it. As long as Dr. King was preaching this "we're all brothers and sisters and let's all live together" philosophy...he was fine. It's when he started worrying about integrating his people into a "burning house" and began questioning whether or not AfroAmericans should mix in with Caucasians is when he was assasinated! Sure, racism is real, but is dying along with the ignoramuses who believe and practice it. If you can't see it getting better in this country as far as racism is concerned, there is nothing I can tell you to change your mind. I'm one individual so my observations are limited. So perhaps thing ARE getting better, but not in the places I've observed. What evidence do you have that race relations are getting "better" in this nation? And before you answer, make sure not to confuse things getting better for YOU with things getting better in general. What is getting worse is wealth inequality. Again, this is fueled by greed and the way our system of capitalism works. Greed, and the winner take all mentality, is rewarded. This has always been counter productive and I'd argue against human nature. Racism is a byproduct, not the source. 1. Wealth inequality isn't NECESSARILY a bad thing. It depends on WHY the wealth is unequally distributed. 2. I wouldn't say racism is a "byproduct" of wealth inequality. I would say there are 2 separate issues that often overlap eachother like alcoholism and spousal abuse. When was they last time a Black person posed a real threat to doing something really substantive for Black folks? This is why I knew Obama would never be assassinated. Kamala has nothing to worry about either -- even when she takes over for Biden. Perhaps the question you should be asking is...after Fred Hampton....when was the last time a Black person actually TRIED to? The idea of a "Talented Tenth" and that entire mentality may hold an answer to your question. This society is good for rewarding AfroAmerican INDIVIDUALS even when it oppresses AfroAmericans as a community. While the racists who control this society may not help AfroAmericans collectively, they are great at rewarding a handful of HAND-PICKED AfroAmericans who do their bidding. A lot of smart and talented AfroAmericans today aren't concerned with what is good for the community collectively but only concerned with their own INDIVIDUAL success...so unlike Dr. King or Brother Malik Shabazz or Brother Hampton..they aren't even trying to do something of substance for Black folks as a whole.

Delano I figured you'd probably get it early. I actually started this threat to make a point to Troy but YOU are helping to make it for me with the opening lines of your response. I agree with the first part of your statement but after the "however" I began to distance myself from it a little. For example, you said: However it is not a fact it is an opinion. I'm of the position (and I thought YOU were as well, based on your initial statement) that even if something just exists in YOUR MIND ALONE....it still can be said to EXIST. If it DOES exist...then it's a FACT (not a mere opinion) that it exists. We can argue over the STATE of that existence, but there should be no argument over whether or not it actually exists. If Santa Claus exists as a mythological character...he still exists none the less. Since facts are subject to falsification, whereas opinions are not. That's correct that facts are subject to falsification. However we keep in mind that it's not the fact ITSELF that should be considered false but it's REPLACEMENT. But as to opinions NOT being subject to falsification....are you sure about that?

Who disputes this fact?

Perhaps.....lol.

Troy Nope...haven't seen it yet but I intend to soon because too many people are telling me how good it is. A drive-in is a good idea but I don't have one in my area, I gotta look for one. Malcolm X didn't talk of uniting with Caucasians. He specifically and wisely said THEY CAN HELP....BUT THEY CAN'T JOIN. In other words...if you want to give money or help by teaching your own fellow Caucasians to stop being so racist then that help is welcomed. But he didn't invite them to pal around marching and organizing together. MLK did want to join with them initially....but started changing his mind right before his assassination. This argument that "poor Whites" have the same gripes against injustice as AfroAmericans of EVERY economic is just wishful thinking day dream. Most poor Whites don't want to unite with poor AfroAmericans or Latinos or have ANYTHING to do with them...which is why they'd rather live out in the woods or in trailer parks instead of in the projects or ghetto where the other poor people live. This "alliance" with poor Whites is a FANTASY that a lot of our people have and it's caused by their unconditional LOVE for Caucasians and their desire to be friends and lovers with Caucasians. When you LOVE somebody you make all kinds of excuses to hang around them and associate with them even if they don't want to be around you....except to harm you. If you look at all of those red necks who stormed the Capitol a couple months ago most of them were poor and most of them didn't even have health care....but they weren't angry about the same things most AfroAmericans and Latinos were angry about. Most of them were adamant racists who wouldn't unite with AfroAmericans REGARDLESS of income levels!!! They don't care about income....they were there to support TRUMP and be his foot soldiers. Notice they didn't riot over getting only $600 instead of $2000! They weren't angry over THAT....lol. But Trump losing??? They were ready to tear up! That shows you money DOESN'T MATTER to them as much as being Caucasian and staying in control. The sooner AfroAmericans realize that most Caucasians OF ANY ECONOMIC STATUS don't really want to treat them as equals or live in harmony with them....the better off we'll be collectively because we'll stop wasting time seeking their approval and friendship and start trying harder to work with eachother.

Troy yeah, why not? You're asking the wrong person. You should be asking the racists and Caucasian Dominists (White Supremacist) who hate and oppress people of color around the planet. THEY are the ones who need to hear what you and Del are saying, not other AfroAmericans. That's the point of my response to Del. Exactly who was he talking to, me or other Black people???? I KNOW anti-Black racism should be abolished....why is he preaching to the choir? It's not me or any other AfroAmerican who actively oppresses people of other races so WE aren't the ones you should request a meeting with to sit down and figure out why we can't "all get along". This book helps explain why racism is bad for everyone. It being bad for "everyone" can be argued. White Supremacists see racism is very profitable for themselves...regardless as to it's devastating effects on others. "Racism is bad for business????? Speak for yourself!" Del Racism is bad business. Ever heard of Slavery? It was fueled by racism...and it thrived for HUNDREDS of years. Ever heard of the Prison Industrial Complex? It's largely fueled by racism....it's thriving.

Troy People make up stuff all the time. That does not mean what they make up exists. She...like you...said that race IS a social construct. The word "is" declares that something EXISTS because it "is". For example... You IS wrong. Meaning, your erroneous position on this subject DOES exists, lol. Del The construct of race should be abandoned because it is destructive and equality and fairness should be applied. With all due respect, that statement REEKS of fanciful naivety. I'd hang it up on the wall right next to: "We should all hold hands and live as one; as we sing Kumbaya together".

When it comes to superficial aggressions and insults, AfroAmericans are often the hardest on eachother. I went to mostly AfroAmerican schools and attended a mostly Caucasian school, the children who called me "ugly" and "monkey" the most were other Black students both in volume and frequency...lol. Infact, I was NEVER called a monkey by White children nor did I hear them call any of the other handful of Black children who were in the school a monkey....although a few did refer to us as "nigger" from time to time. Black children called eachother nearly every name in the book and not only would talk about you but your mother, father, and everybody else they think you loved...lol. I've seen family members call their own siblings and even their own children ugly or make fun of how dark they were or how kinky their hair was. Much of it was in jest, but as I got older I realized how much it must have stung the children for their own family to talk about them like that. But to your particular issue...... They say things like hair loss and alopecia is caused by stress and that may be true, however I also believe chemicals are also being introduced into the environment that have a negative impact on the health of AfroAmericans. You're thinking it's stress and it may be a chemical in the soap your using, toothpaste you're using, food you're eating, or even the washing detergent you're washing your clothes and bed sheets in and laying down on. Do you realize that most Black people are allergic to vaseline and vaseline based products? There are all types of things in the environment attacking the health of AfroAmericans.

50,000 is only 10% of 500,000 AfroAmericans are said to make up around 14% of the population> If the numbers they are putting out are correct, then AfroAmericans are UNDER-represented in the amount of Covid related deaths, which is not as bad as I thought. But it's hard to believe what is true and what isn't when the figures are coming from arch deceivers.

Troy Here again, Pioneer, you have quoted a sentence that refuses your belief about race, but you have somehow managed to contort it to mean something completely contradictory. You really can't see it can you? I should ask YOU the same question, lol. My belief is that there are MULTIPLE RACES and the fact that the article you provided confirms this by constantly refering to "races"....in or out of quotes....and regardless as to how race is defined....supports that belief. Do you have any idea, for example, why the word race is bounded by quotes? Yes. Do YOU sir, have any idea why it's bound by quotes SOME times but not at others? The author of this article seems to have an issue more with HOW race is defined rather than it's very existence. She says clearly that race is a SOCIAL CONSTRUCT....therefor it exists. If something is CONSTRUCTED then it has to exist. She also clearly mentions RACES in the plural....multiple constructs. .....but they DO exist.