Pioneer1

Cynique Why do you keep asking these silly questions? My distaste for this country has nothing to do with my fondness for my friends. i am able to separate the person from the place, even if you apparently cannot. But your friends and family MAKE UP America. How can you declare your distaste and dislike for a nation that is made up of countless numbers of your friends and family members that you like and love? You said you never loved this country because it was full of bigotry and bullshit. Even with your friends and family near the bottom and Barack and Michelle Obama near the top you ignore all of them in your rage.....I guess they aren't part of this "America" you don't like, lol. Why not pinpoint your anger and and focus your dissatisfaction on those who are actually causing the problem instead of painting ALL of America (and all Americans) with the same broad brush?

Troy Do you feel a bit vindicated.....like I do....that the largest segment feels the same way we do? I have to admit that I'm a bit suprised that so many Black women in the survey felt this way. Most of those I know in real life actually felt about the photo the same way Cynique and Mel felt. When I brought it up many became a bit defiant and took the position of how could I as a man tell a sista what type of make-up she should wear.

Cynique As opposed to you who can't gush enough adoration for Farrakhan. Not adoration but ADMIRATION certainly. I think he is one of the greatest Black leaders of our time. Who else do you know can call 2 million Black men together in one location? 　 at some point all 3 of them lived together in the same house Sounds like my type of guy.......lol. Troy Now I know full well many Black are full of self-hate, but I really did not appreciate how Black women feel about Black men. Now Cynique and Mel do not represent all Black women and I'm sure I can find Black women who disagree with them. Still, I hope their opinion is not widespread. I hope my daughters do not grow to feel this way... It will last as long as we are under the system of White supremacy. Women.....not just Black women but women of all races.....are taught to love and respect White men unconditionally in this society. It starts in the church with a picture of a White Jesus with blonde hair and blue eyes that little girls of color are introduced to in childhood. They grow up believing that THAT is the perfect man whom they should love and trust in. ...and it just continues from there. There is a subconscious love for White men and White authority that has been instilled in them since childhood and the only antidote is Black males achieving enough wealth and power in society that it COMPELLS Black women to respect them. This is why the drug dealer, pimp, and hustler often have a much better relationship with Black women than the so-called "good" brothers do. They don't rely on White standards of respect and civility.....they rely on NATURE'S. Del I didn't consider they could be gay. Until it was suggested that they and me by extension could be gay. It's not relevant. What is interesting is that liking art makes one gay. We'll all rappers are gay because they are poets. Come on man, almost anyone over 30 almost automatically associates men who perform ballet with being gay.....and justifiably so. Just like Cynique wondered if Viola's male hairstylist was gay. Liking ballet, poetry, art, ect....doesn't necessarily make one gay. But some professions are just dominated by women and gay men. Not sure why so many male hair stylists are gay (or even if they are), but I suspect that most male ballet dancers are gay because it would be harder for a straight man to squeeze and grab on so many women all day without getting an erection. We can't have that constantly happening on stage....lol. Stupidity Brawn and hyper violence and sexuality. Thats keeping it real for some folks. How's that working for us? Actually, encouraging Black men to act feminine and gay is just as detrimental to the Black community as encouraging them to be violent and hypermasculine. One is passive genocide and the other is active genocide.

Cynique Pioneer1 NO, I DON'T LOVE THIS COUNTRY. AND DON'T THINK I EVER HAVE. IT'S THE LAND OF BIGOTRY AND BULLSHIT. ANYMORE QUESTIONS Pioneer is an American. Do you love him? What about Troy, Delano, Mel, even yourself??? We're ALL Americans up in here. You mean you don't have ANY bit of love in your heart for us?

......see THIS is probably why people get confused about your sexuality, lol. Nah LOL, much respect for the good that these 2 brothers have done for the community. Just 2 more examples of Black men who've helped Black women. Actually I hadn't even heard of them before you mentioned them. ....the more you know. Cynique I give you Minister Farrakhan who's helped countless Black women rise up like rods and stand before the world like shining jewels......but you reject HIM like spoiled milk and call him all types of names. But 2 gay Black men who help women dance and sing for White folks? Oh you LOOOOVE them don't you. But I'm not angry, I understand....((smile)) I understand why so many Black women promote the feminine Black man over the masculine one. And because I understand, I know everything's gonna be alright.....((smile))

Delano In another thread you said: Why not post the story in the new thread as well since that is what started the conversation. And it will give context to your statement. You said if some dude made a move on you it would end in violence. Why can't you just say you are not interested. And why couldn't you tell that guy you weren't interested. Sounds like the Fight or flight response. Which is the result of a perceived threat. Why do you feel threatened by homosexuality? Is cutting to close to the bone? https://aalbc.com/tc/topic/4423-i-met-an-inventor-at-barnes-nobles-bookstore/ First, I thought about posting the story here but it seemed a little akward because I'd have to post the story as well as our responses to it. Perhaps Troy is able to do it, but for me it would be too "sloppy" as I don't have the tools to edit the posts properly. Secondly..... There's a simple reason I didn't tell my Asian friend that I wasn't interested in him, HE DIDN'T ASK....lol. Perhaps YOU consider someone who constantly seeks your conversation and loves talking to you as being "in love" with you...I don't. I've had a couple women in love (atleast they claimed they were) with me before and how they behaved towards me were totally different from his. Again, as I've said several times.....I detected absolutely nothing gay or even effeminate about him what so ever. I have to admit that his constantly craving my conversation was a little off putting, but other than that I didn't detect any sensual desires coming from him. As a man, I know how insulted I'd be if a cat I was chilling with all of a sudden broke out and said, "You KNOW I ain't gay right.....so don't think I like you. But uhhh....are you in love with me??". I'd be like WTF....lol. So why would I do that to someone else? As far as a dude making a move on me becoming violent.............. I've had men hit on me before, but it didn't end in violence because it didn't become physical. If a man just gave me the eye, or tried to start some crazy-talk with me it's annoying but it wouldn't make me become violent. However if a man were to try to grab my hand or feel on me THAT would bring an almost involuntary retaliatory response. Part of it would be a natural reflex out of disgust, but also as a deterent to prevent them from going further. Homosexuality itself isn't threatening. I recognize it as a fact of nature. I don't completely understand it.....like I don't completely understand how a woman feels. But I accept it. However men are men and tend to be aggressive with their object of attraction whether they are heterosexual OR homosexual and just like women have to be (or should be) CLEAR to men that they aren't interested so that men don't take it further, a man should be the same with with a gay man.

Troy Now look at that..... You started a thread DEFENDING Black women. You were calling Time magazine to the carpet on how they were unfairly depicting Black women. And instead of applauding you for your efforts, you ended up getting fricasseed in your own juices. I saw it coming.... I could have stayed out, but I knew you were gonna be by yourself trying to hold it down for Black men so I felt compelled to contribute. .....but I saw it coming. I've seen it time and time again. Like a woman who is abused by her no-good boyfriend but takes out her frustrations on her good male friend, cussing HIM out and calling HIM a dog as he tries to console her.... Often times the intelligent, well meaning, successful Black man is targeted for insult, ridicule, and scorn by Black women who are angry and frustrated at the behavior of the dusty foul criminal minded negroes who have ruined their lives. Now that doesn't necessarily apply to these two ladies because I believe they're too smart to get caught up with a some dusty abusive thug. However I DO believe that like most Black women, they are angry and frustrated in the Black man's inability to adequately provide for and protect them collectively and that's what you really hear when you read between the lines. Infact, Mel made it a little more plain in her latest post but I was able to discern it all through out the thread. When I realized this, I had to CATCH myself from further irritating an already raw and open wound. Cynique and Mel Don't worry, everything's gonna be alright. You can dry your eyes now. Your cries have been heard, and help will be coming soon.

At the heart of this "victimization" is Western culture and it's Judeo-Christian religious foundation that continues to re-enforce the belief that these groups who are victimized somehow deserve it or are divinely ordained to be subjegated. Blacks are oppressed out of the belief that they are descend from Ham whose descendants were cursed to be slaves. Women are oppressed out of the belief that they are responsible for the original sin and caused the downfall of man and cursed to be under the thumbs of their husbands. Homosexuals are oppressed out of the belief that the Old Testemant condemns homosexual activity and threatens it with death. The poor are oppressed out of MANY beliefs. Among them, because slavery was permitted in the Old Testament. The New Testament advises slaves to obey their masters. Others believe that people are poor because of bad karma. Others point to the scripture in which Jesus says the poor you will always have. These discriminatory beliefs are ingrained in the heart of Western society and whether they claim to be born again Christians or atheists, most Westerners....especially White Westerners adhere to these beliefs subconsciously. Most of the legal codes and social rules in Western civilization whether it be the United States, Canada, Europe, Russia, or even Australia....hail from these original beliefs and more.

Well what do you call a man that hangs out with another man who is in love with him. But that man is ignorant to that fact, Pioneer. If the man who is in love is named Delano.....then I'd probably call that man Pioneer, lol. And if Pioneer is ignorant to that fact, perhaps he should be KEPT that way by Delano keeping his feelings to himself....lol.

Cynique Lol, do you LOVE your country? Delano Citizens don't have to fight for civil rights. Sure they do. Just because you're a citizens doesn't automatically mean you'll receive or keep your rights. Prisoners and ex-convicts are U.S. citizens. But in most states they don't have the right to vote or own a gun.

Cynique So a Black man who holds a REASONABLE and BALANCED point of view and sees the good in America instead of all the negative is just an OREO to you? Instead of pinpointing your frustrations on the guilty party, you'd rather condemn the entire nation? Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater......damn. 　 Troy The argument that American is the best place in the world for Black folks to live is nonsensical. Why do we say that at least we are no longer enslaved we should be happy. Do you understand the point @Pioneer1? I didn't say America is the BEST place in the world for Blacks. I haven't been all over the world to make that comparison and declaration. But I've talked to enough people from other countries, those from here who have VISITED other countries, as well as my own research on how many Black folks live in other nations to come to the conclusion that this is certainly ONE of the best places in terms of economic power, freedom to express ourselves, access to education, ect... Again, not the BEST....but certainly one of them. My point is we should stop blaming America for being racist when we ARE America collectively and start analyzing the problem for what it is. The problem isn't America itself, but a handful (or perhaps more) of hard core racists IN America who are causing most of the problems. And it will take OTHER AMERICANS (us and decent Whites) to put an end to it. 　 　 Del Pioneer how many countries have you lived in other than the USA? Lol.... Why do you ask?

Cynique instead of providing the name of one man whose efforts uplifted black women collectively to a level even with white women. Obviously, it's arguable as to whether this question has been answered. Ahhh..tut...tut...tut! She didn't ASK for an example of a man who uplifted Black women collectively to the level of White women! She said.....and I quote: "Please name one black man who has done anything to help black women build their collective economic and social standing here in the U.S. " And later asked again: "If you know of any other black man - wait, I'll make it easy ANY MAN who has championed the rights of black women and actually helped us inch up higher at last place - please share. I really want to know because I might have missed his work" She made a VERY SPECIFIC REQUEST. The requirements were: 1. He be a Black man 2. He helped Black women build thier collective (group) economic and social standing in the United States 3. Even if they remain in last place, he'd have to have atleast helped them move an inch higher We can argue all day long over how much an "inch higher" means....... I mean, ((arms folded)) if I wanted to be anal I could include MYSELF in that number as I've personally helped many Black women improve themselves, as well as TROY who has helped Black female authors through this website and being married to a Black woman has helped HER. Maybe Delano can say the same if he's helped Black women when he was in the United States. But since she means collectively help move them an "inch higher", she most likely means a reasonable amount of progress that we can actually see and compare on a national scale. And ALL of the examples I and Troy have mentioned fit that criteria. Getting thousands of Black women off drugs, giving them jobs, structure, education, ect....all improves their social status and economic status. By the way, both Minister Farrakhan and Booker T. Washington helped MANY Black women....not just 1 or 2. I provided Ava Muhammad as just one example of the THOUSANDS of Black women he has helped improve socially and economically. The same thing with Mr. Washington. He hired MANY Black women as teachers and admitted MANY Black females as students.....thus helping to improve and uplift the lives of Black women COLLECTIVELY during their generation and for many generations to come as a result of the education they received at the Tuskegee Institute. The same can be said of LouOverture and Garvey. Again, it has become obvious to me that no matter how many examples I provide or how many of the goals she demands are met....the examples will continue to be ignored and the GOAL POSTS will continue to be moved. ((shakes head)) You ladies really should be ashamed of ......deeply reflect on your behavior in this thread.

Del Well for one thing, you have to first prove that the dude was even GAY in the first place before you have him all "inlove" with me and trying to groom me with conversation....lol. But since it seems rather "fuzzy" to you and I don't want to clutter up Troy's thread about this young man's invention anymore, let me go over this sloooooowwwly......in another thread: https://aalbc.com/tc/topic/4495-bisexuality-and-sexual-confusion-101/

This thread was started to continue the conversation I was having with Delano in another thread but obviously anyone interested can comment. The context of this thread can be found in here: https://aalbc.com/tc/topic/4423-i-met-an-inventor-at-barnes-nobles-bookstore/ 1) First, there are 4 MAIN sexual orientation types: 1. Heterosexual -those attracted to the opposite sex 2. Homosexual -those attracted to the same sex 3. Bisexual -those attracted to both the same and opposite sex 4. Asexual -those who aren't attracted to either. Got me? 2. Sexual orientation is NOT fluid. It's stationary....hardwired pretty much from birth With me so far? 3. You said that sexuality is fluid and that set off an alarm with me. Because if a person is bisexual it may appear to be fluid TO THEM because THEIR sexuality contantly switches back and forth between the sexes. e.i... A bisexual man may THINK he's straight and have a wife or girlfiend, but because he also likes men he may one day meet a man who he falls in love with and leaves the woman to get with this man. If he's ignorant on bi-sexuality, he may think he TURNED gay. Or he may THINK he's gay and have a boyfriend, but one day run into a woman who is so captivating that she pulls him in and he starts kicking it with her. Again, if he's ignorant on the laws of bi-sexuality, he may think he TURNED straight. But this is not fluidity, this is a bisexual acting out his natural impulses because he likes BOTH sexes although he may have been ignorant of his orientation. With me so far? I'm not asking if you agree or not....just...do you UNDERSTAND what I'm saying so far? Now...... 4. As I said, a person who is bisexual and ignorant of this fact may BELIEVE that sexuality is fluid because of HIS/HER own experiences....and there by PROJECT that same belief on others. Which is why I told YOU that if YOU are bisexual...not saying you are or not...but IF you are then ofcourse it may seem to you that a man can "sway" another man by conversation or other means. If you've done it or had it happen to you you believe it can happen to any man. However, as I've said sexuality is pretty much set and hardwired. This is why no matter how good the conversation or how much trust is achieved, no man will entice a STRAIGHT man to turn gay any more than he will entice a GAY man to turn straight. It took me many years to learn this lesson during my silly attempts to "turn" lesbian women I found attractive straight.....lol. My overall point is, most straight people and solidly homosexual people know and understand this. But I doubt that most BISEXUALS do....since THEIR sexuality appears fluid as their attraction bounces back and forth between men and women they may assume and project their reality on others.

I didn't even know there were 197 Black owned book stores IN America, let alone closing down! Infact there are some on that list in the Detroit area that I didn't even know existed....lol. You can add another one to that list as the Truth Book store in Northland (Southfield Michigan) has closed down. I had left Detroit by the time it opened up, but I heard it was a regular hang-out for Pan Africanists and is sorely missed by the handful of Black nationalists in an otherwise middleclass Black community. 　 I agree with CD and have been saying for years that we need an AfroAmerican bookstore chain similar to Barnes and Noble or Chapters (Canada). I've probably possessed enough books in my life to start my own book store. But I've given away much of them to make room, I'm not a horder. Perhaps I should have kept them and sold them. You get tired of going over cat's homes only to see the SAME book you gave them 3 years ago sitting in the SAME spot you saw them put it when you handed it to them.....lol.

Mel So Obama did more for Black women than any Black man who ever lived? ((shakes head)) Most people have observed that Black Americans collectively have become economically WORSE off during the Obama Administration. The stock market crash in '07 and the housing crisis in '08 erased much of the wealth gains achieved by Blacks in the 90s and early 2000s. But I guess it only affected Black men, while Black women continued to rise. All these Black women I've seen and dealt with over the past 4 or 5 years who told me they had degrees and good professional jobs teaching and working for the government but are now homeless and frequenting food banks were probably just men in drag pretending to be women just to throw people off the trail of how well Black women have been doing under Obama these past 8 years. ....yeah...that's it! Since you didn't want to accept Farrakhan or Booker T. Washington as examples of Black men who lifted the social and economic status of Black women then I won't even get into Marcus Garvey and other examples. Who cares about the nearly 1 million Black women that Toussaint Louverture helped liberate from chattle slavery during the Haitian Revolution? How would something as miniscule as THAT compare to a mulatto offering poor Black women the opportunity to get more free check-ups? 　 Cynique Well hell, if you wanted to talk about Black men helping INDIVIDUAL Black women you don't have to go to Serena and Venus, you can stay right here in this thread with Beyonce. Beyonce's father helped her and the rest of the women of Destiny's Child achieve fame. Mathew Knowles But I thought Mel was asking for leaders on a more national scale. But now that I see she really DOESN'T want examples regardless as to how many I provide, I'm just about ready to leave it alone........ Who are these "2 women" you keep talking about? There is only one woman I mentioned by name.

....an American! A bonafied, real life, flesh-n-blood, U.S. Citizen. For the U.S. Constitution tells you so: 1: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States -Amendment 14 http://constitutionus.com/

Mel I don't think you're being fair. You asked for ONE Black man who has helped Black women build their economic and social standing in this nation. I actually gave you TWO.....Minister Farrakhan and Booker T. Washington. You basically IGNORED them and their contributions, moved the goal posts further, and went on to argue 3 or 4 differnt tangents. You remind me of that brother who complains about there not being any jobs but when I tell him where to go find one where he's guaranteed to be hired that same day, he comes back with: "Yeaaaah but...... How many hours they want you to work ? How much they payin'? Is it hard? I'm tryna go back to school.....will they help pay for my education too? If not, it ain't worth me applying!!!" BTW..... How long have you felt this way about Black women having it so bad and erradicating oppression? I ask because you said you were in the Republican Party and I'd think that would be the LAST place for you to be in given your strong views on freedom of choice and women's upliftment. Cynique Your defense of Farrakhan rings hollow; provides no facts, figures or specifics just some generalities falling in line with a carefully crafted image about a power hungry man who was part of the regime who had Malcolm X assassinated and whose mentor Elijah Muhammad was a lecher who exploited young girls. I don't know about all the accusations..... What I DO KNOW is Mel asked for a Black man who uplifted Black women and I PROVIDED her with one (actually two).....mission accomplished. How you can sit up there and say I provided "no specifics" when I just gave you a prime example of one of his female ministers struggling with cancer and how Minister Farrakhan uplifted her and helped her improve her life....is beyond my comprehension. 　 There are thousands of unsung teachers and preachers and organization who have inspired young black to turn their lives around. There's a black, all boys high school in Chicago where each June, 100 percent of the graduating class has been accepted by a college. And the nation of Islam is in no way affiliated with this inner city school. Ok....and? What does ANY of these wonderful things have to do with the good the Minister Farrakhan has been doing for Black men AND Black women for decades? Did the good that these organizations do take AWAY from what Farrakhan did? Nevermind that Beyonce is superficial or Viola ambitious; they have not disgraced or demeaned black womanhood. They are beautiful successful independent sistas. Beautiful and successful yes..... Independent NO. They are still dependant on White people in the entertaiment industry to help make and distribute thier music; their White managers and agents to write their pay check and manage their money for them, and the White photographers for magazines like Time to get their image out to the public. So not only are they dependent, their success is largely tied to the White power structure that granted it in the first place.

What happened to his home was terrible and it should be thoroughly investigated. However I have to take issue with him saying that it's hard being Black in AMERICA. Black folks need to cool out with all this anti-American talk because this nation is one of the best nations in the world for Black people over-all. Look at how Black folks are treated in India. Look how they're treated in China, Mexico, Arab countries where our people are routinely called "slave" and berated. Lebron has become rich living his dream life and living quite comfortably.....for the most part because he's in AMERICA. Ofcourse his talents earned him much of his wealth, but he could have been born in Brazil or France or Saudi Arabia with that SAME talent and probably wouldn't be nearly as wealthy and famous as he is today. America is a great place, it's just the racists IN America that make it rough for Black folks and THEY are the ones we need to confront.....not bash the entire country. You look like a fuzzy faced fool sitting up there in a t-shirt with hundreds of millions of dollars in the bank while bashing the very country that MADE you rich in the first place. .

Delano If you form a deep mental or emotional than it is easier to be swayed into forging a physical one. More time means more opportunity. You must have been aware because you made it a point to let your friend know you like women. Maybe he wasn't gay but he till sounds like he was in love with you. I already KNOW that when you form deep social bonds with some people they are more suceptible to fall in love with you! Psychologists and therapists know this also and are trained to watch out for signs that thier clients may be falling in love with them so they can cut off the sessions if necessary. But again, you're failing to take into account that they only fall in love with those of the same sex they are ALREADY attracted to! They don't "turn" homosexual for someone they're having deep conversations with....lol. I know "grooming" works, but again....it doesn't work on someone belonging to a sex you're not attracted to. I think langauge is hard wired but sexuality is fluid even if the mind is not. Some women will find out what their prospective love interest. A man chases a woman until she catches him. Think about it would you spend your last credit talking to a guy and not have eyes for anyone else. If you can't see that you may be hiding from your own impulses. I'm not trying to insult you or take shots but seriously I think because YOUR sexuality may be fluid and because that's your reality you may be projecting it on others. You've said repeatedly that homosexuals, bisexuals, and even straight people have questioned your sexuality which tells me that you're giving off signals either consciously or unconsciously. I'm also saying because you claim to be a psychic. ...which you still have yet to prove....lol. And when you study indigenous traditional customs (African and Native American) you find that many if not most of the shamans, psychics, and spiritual practicioners tended to be BISEXUAL (two spirited) so that they can relate to both males and females in the society more easily and help them. Even today in this society, many of the psychic men have a gay or feminine quality about them and I believe this is so they can relate to both genders more easy. But for most people, their sexuality isn't fluid but SET and well understood. They aren't swayed by conversation, deep emotional bonds, ect.....that's just a scientific fact.

I was nearly 30 and this 23 year old Asian kid who was born in Korea and raised in a sheltered American suburb was "running game" on me? I don't know about that one....lol. So,you're saying that if it weren't for the young lady who didn't feel comfortable around him then he would have "turned" me bisexual? Well first of all, I continued to talk to him for a couple years AFTER that incident with that particular woman....and still didn't get "turned out"...lol. Further, I've talked to and befriended gays, bisexuals, lesbians, and even a drag queen over the years....and didn't get "turned out"....lol. Come on man. Secondly..... You're assuming that a gay person can TURN someone else gay or that a person can TURN gay or bisexual in the first place. Now I admit, I don't know for sure that it CAN'T happen. But I'm more inclined to believe that if a man got "turned out" he was already gay or bisexual to begin with and someone just happened to be skilled enough to get him to express his true self. I believe your sexuality is HARDWIRED and you're essentially born with it. You can't "turn" bi or gay anymore than you can "turn" a retarded person into a genius. That's not to say that a persons sexual orientation can't be influenced while they're still developing in their mother's womb. Nor does it exclude the fact that through some sort of manipulation of the body's chemistry or the brain structure a person's sexual orientation can be changed. However, I highly doubt that social interaction can change a person's sexual orientation. For years the Black community would say: "Oh...she was so abused by these no good men that she TURNED lesbian". "Man, homeboy when to prison straight and got TURNED OUT and now he's gay as a rainbow!" Come to talk to the people themselves and they said they ALWAYS felt that way, lol. But sexuality aside.......... I do believe that you can have a spiritual or chemical bonding with a person of the same sex or opposite sex. That's just human nature. Some people you jive with. You like talking to them and being around them, nothing really sexual about it. But LIKE a sexual relationship.....sometimes the feeling is mutual and sometimes it's onesided. With this particular dude, it was more one sided as he desired my company much more than I desired his. But there are MEN who I consider close friends who we mutually respect and enjoy eachother's company and can kick it for hours.

Del The reason I say that is that Gay Men Lesbians and straight people. Seemed to have a confusion about my sexual orientation. Gays, lesbians, and straights.....? That sounds like EVERYBODY has trouble trying to figure you out.....lol. Pioneer if it wasn't for the Girl you would be Bi. Huh???

Lol.....perhaps. Maybe there was a "spiritual love connection" that I was unaware of.

Mel I appreciated that Louis Farrakhan is a knowledgeable man - with an estimated networth of $3 -to 5 million but what has he done for black woman to elevate their socioeconomic status in America? What legislative proposals has he written or championed to raise the status of black women in America. Hundreds if not thousands of Black women credit Minister Farrakhan for their being cleaned up from a life of drug/alcohol addiction, crime, domestic abuse, and improving their personal self esteem and self worth. I'd think this would have a much better and more direct effect in uplifting the social and economic status of Black women than passing bureaucratic laws from Washington D.C. that often takes years for their effects to be felt and are often tied up by red-tape to the point of ineffectiveness. 　 Women who choose to follow Islam are under the auspices of that religion. They live their lives according to the Quran. It's their choice but it also strips them of a lot decision-making once they choose to follow Islam. I'm not a follower so I can't speak to how this raises the profile of black women, however the results of the NOI and its effect on the status of Black Women is clear. Black women lose their agency once they choose to follow the tenets of any religion. Religion is about obedience and the rules are in place. * * * To a large extent you're right, religion DOES strip people (both male and female) of their decision making, and I'm not the biggest fan of religion myself. However some would argue that this stripping of their ability to make conceptually WRONG decisions in their lives and focus them on a more disciplined purpose driven life has actually been more beneficial to their upliftment than having no rules or discipline to guide them. Kind of like a University that grades and graduates students who are disciplined enough to follow the rules of learning for their own benefit. Many women who were once street and ghetto are now productive workers, mothers, and business owners as a direct result of Minister Farrakhan's teachings and required discipline. One of them is Minister Ava Muhammad...... Dr. Ava Muhammad described in detail that she was introduced to the Teachings of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad though a speech by Minister Farrakhan in 1981 in New York. At the time, she was involved in an emotional, mental and physical battle with cancer. He spoke of the healing power of Allah that night. "I am so thankful to Allah that when I first heard Minister Farrakhan, I was in the throes of cancer so that I would not have to struggle with a dilemma because I was in the throes of death and he was sunlight, sunshine, and life," said Ava Muhammad. http://www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/National_News_2/article_101451.shtml 　 　 　 When my daughter and I went to vote for Hillary in the last election, we joked and said, "well let us go to polls to secure our place on the bottom." We were half-joking because while we (black women) are still last on the economic ladder, she had a secured her position as a contract analyst at new technology law firm ... and I was finally able to focus on building my communication/publishing business You believe that Black women are on the BOTTOM of the economic ladder? Do you think that Black men, Native American men, and Native American women are doing better from a socio-economic stand point than Black women? 　 　 　 So again I'll pose this If you know of any other black man - wait, I'll make it easy ANY MAN who has championed the rights of black women and actually helped us inch up higher at last place - please share. I really want to know because I might have missed his work. Well..... If you don't care too much for Farrakhan as an example, how about another in Booker T. Washington who hired Black women to teach AND taught Black women in his schools improving their lives and the lives of their families and many more generations to come.....all during a time when Black women weren't allowed by the general society to even get an education....atleast in the South: "On July 4th, 1881 Washington officially opened Tuskegee with what he described as 30 "anxious and earnest students," many of whom were already public school teachers. Washington was the only teacher. As word of the school spread, other teachers and students began to arrive. All were mature men and women. Some were quite elderly. His plan was to train most of his students to be teachers who would return to their rural communities and teach the people how to "put new energy and new life into farming," http://www.pbs.org/wnet/jimcrow/stories_events_tuskegee.html 　 　 　 　 Cynique And what has Farrakhan done for the black community lately, except lead a life of luxurious leisure and surface once a year to stand on a dais and deliver a marathon speech spewing the same old rhetoric. Since i don't know, will someone inform me what noteworthy profitable industries and jobs and economic progress the black Muslims have made, besides selling bean pies, and hawking newspapers, adopting Arabic names, and its menfolk wearing business suits instead of saggin jeans? Yes, i know they have a prison ministry but what are they doing to prevent young black men from being sent there in the first place? I'm not sure what's wrong with Minister Farrakhan or any other Black leader who earned his wealth, leading a luxurious life. Last I checked he never took a vow of poverty. And as I've mentioned and Troy's mentioned, hundreds....probably thousands....of Black men and women have been cleaned up morally and physically as a direct result of Minister Farrakhan's efforts in the Black community. But alas..... He is a leader....but NOT a dictator. He's called a MINISTER for a reason. The only thing he can do is deliver the message and urge Black men to stop using and selling dope, stop killing eachother, and clean up their homes and communities and take care of their families. He can't put a gun to their heads and MAKE them do otherwise. Many of the problems that Black people face are not legal or economic but MORAL and only a change in MORAL behavior will improve their lot....and THAT for the most part is an individual choice.

I said they are different with SOME similarities. For example, religion was used to oppress and justify the abuse of both groups. What Black people went (are going) through for the 500 or 600 years of contact with Europeans was extreme and intense involving millions of people murdered as well as slavery and it's after effects. On the flip side, what women went (are going) through with sexism wasn't quite as intense but much longer, existing for thousands of years of discrimination and abuse at the hands of patriarchal societies around the globe. Another difference is that atleast women were NEEDED by their abusers so men were a little more hesitant to kill women wholesale, but Whites were killing Blacks by the millions during the TransAtlantic Slave Trade seeing them as worthless animals. But again on the other hand, when Blacks aren't under the thumb of White racist domination they lived among eachother in relative peace and stability in thier own society building their own institutions, but no matter what society women were in or where they went they were subject to being dominated, controled, and often abused by the men in that society. Most often by men in their own family....and it was accepted as a way of life. Like I said, it's hard....for me atleast....to compare the two together. The dynamics are so separate. Throw POVERTY and income inequality next to them and how poor people are looked down upon and have been mistreated through out history and the comparison becomes even MORE complicated with some believing the poor "deserve" to be that way or others at the opposite end claiming that rich are evil and won't enter a kingdom. Apples, collard greens, oak trees, roast beef sandwiches......lol.....can't compare them.