Pioneer1

Troy The key term is "broken man". If you would have said this in the movie "Don't Be A Menace To SouthCentral".....lol. Keenan Ivory Wayans would pop up in a Postman uniform shouting "MESSAGE!!!!" Too many Black men in this society are broken and have just given up hope. Because the human psyche is very complicated, many brothers seem to have developed different and often times odd ways of coping with their conditions. For example...... I've noticed that many Black men who exhibit the overly flamboyant feminine type of behavior often seen among certain gay men grew up and abusive and/or very violent neighborhoods. Rather than turning into bloodthirsty violent thugs, some of them dealt with the situation by opting out of their manhood altogether and taking on the role of being a woman as to no longer be targeted or have their manhood challenged. And this would be the case whether they're actually gay or not!

To answer your obviously rhetorical question...... On the surface level: No It's not as bad Because believing Jesus is White doesn't cause immediate death or destruction. But gangsta rap (in your title you said "rap" but in the opening post you made it clear you were speaking of gangsta rap) puts the seed of violence and criminality in the minds of Black youth and encourages them to exploit and murder eachother. But if we look at it on a much more deeper subconcious level: YES Believing that Jesus is White automatically lowers and in some cases destroys the self esteem of Black people. If you see the god you worship as "White" and you are the opposite of that, then you must be the devil! It's this belief that destroys your self esteem and self worth and makes you subconciously believe your role in society is that of a devil or opposer of righteousness. The belief that Black people are the opposite of what it means to be good or righteous is the very mentality that leads to criminality and a mind that produces gangsta rap.

Cynique I kept saying I just hope I make it to see December 21st 2012 and if God blesses me to see that date and nothing major happens, I won't worry anymore. It's been nearly a year and I'm more concerned about what's happening in the world now than before that date. Anyway........ I'd like to wish you a happy birthday.

If I may, I'd like to offer an comment/opinion on the movie "Happy Sad".... First off, the advertisement: They say a picture is worth a thousands words. I notice that in the top picture you have 2 men in bed. One of African descent the other White. But in the bottom picture there's clearly a White man and a White woman. This to me is unequal. Lopsided. White does the traditional male/female relationship go to a White couple... But the only time a Black male is involved when we see an abnormal/homosexual/down low relationship? Then the plot: After reading the plot or summary of the movie, from what I gather it's basically about a White man who wants to form a traditional relationship but is "tempted" or "stolen away" by a gay Black man who introduces him to his own bisexuality. You know... ((Pioneer takes a deep breath and leans back in his chair)) I've noticed over the years that when White people want to be "naughty".... When they want to take a trip on the "wild side"..... When they want to rebel and break all the rules...... They often find a Black person to do it with. It's not THEIR fault, it's always a "demon" or "devil" tempting them to do something they ordinarily wouldn't think of doing. So now the Black man takes the role of the devil or temptor who takes the "good" family man or "good" White man off the right path into a path of lust and lies. Umph....umph....umph... The more things change the more they often stay the same. Troy I'm not much of a movie critic or professional reviewer but you're welcomed to share my commentary/opinion with others who may find my take interesting.

A lot of Black men go to Church but like MOST men regardless of their race, unless they are in the clergy itself -they tend not to be as involved in Church affairs as women are. The reasons for this are many. One reason is men tend to be more LOGICAL and the Black Church with all it's singing and showboating tends to play more on a person's EMOTIONS. Many men learn as they get older to see past the smoke and mirrors of any organization and go to the heart of it to see who's benefiting. They see a scheme....a scam. If they can be apart of it and "get in" on the inside where they can benefit, they'll join. If not.....screw it. Also most men want to see results.... Will it make you more money? Will it heal you of your illness or injury? Will it solve you legal problems or keep you out of jail? Will it get you more sex? If so, it's worth going.....if it can't....it's not. Me? I'm not a Christian and don't go to Church but I do understand that there are certain spiritual and moral benefits that go far beyond the material. But for most men, Church doesn't seem to offer any benefits outside of the contacts they can meet to serve their immediate self interests like meeting women, business partners, become a minister, ect.... and if they can't secure those benefits then it's not worth going.

Mass incarceration is also being used to solve the "unemployment problem". Rather than providing good jobs, they locking Black men up by the hundreds of thousands they take them off the street where they are no longer competition for jobs and other resources. Unfortunately even after knowing this too many Black men continue to engage in reckless behavior that lead to there incarceration. At the heart of it is the unwillingness to take responsibility for themselves. Too many would rather go to prison and get fed, clothed, and had a bed to sleep on rather than getting a job and earning much much more for themselves. I believe this is a prime example of institutionalization.

I know you're fair dude, I just like saying that as a cover before I say something controversial.....lol. I like how you said you would never ban me.....but didn't leave it at that. You made conditions specific with "for expressing an opinion", thus leaving the door open for kicking a brother off for other reasons, lol. Education is valuable to those who will receive it and use it. But I don't think MOST people are capable of earning a college degree regardless or race. I'm not talking down on anyone, I'm saying this as a man who doesn't have a degree myself. You're an educated man. Did you graduate with the same people you entered college with? If you were honest you'd admit that MOST people wouldn't or couldn't do what you did to get your degree(s). Some wouldn't do it because they don't have the brain power, others wouldn't do it because they don't have the discipline to study. One of the reasons I've been fighting to get more manufacturing and manual labor jobs is because I really believe that those are the type of jobs most of our people would thrive in as opposed to jobs that require a higher education. I sincerely believe that one of the reasons they took away the factory jobs and made so many jobs high-tech requiring a degree was that they were counting on most Black people not being able to achieve the level of education to qualify for those jobs. I'm an idealist, but I'm also a realist. You can't get butter from a duck. You can't FORCE people to be smarter and more intellectual if it's not in their nature or desire to be as such so we must provide an opportunity for them to function on their level and work on jobs they can manage. But as far as the drug laws go.......... That too is a symptom of the larger problem of Black stupidity AND foolishness (and there is a difference). As I've told Cynique.... There are enough Black people in law enforcement to DEMAND a change in these laws as well as reform the criminal justice system to better rehabilitate these brothers who are coming out. It's one thing if Black people were still banned from becoming police officers, lawyers, judges, prosecuters, ect.... But even when Black people get in these positions and don't do anything worthwhile to change the situation that is devouring their own people....that is downright foolish. Black people in positions of authority (legislatures and judges) should be united in RE-EVALUATING ALL OF THE CURRENT CRIMINAL LAWS. They should be discussing legalization (or atleast decriminalization) as well as mass treatment instead of mass incarceration. Unfortunately too many of them are so damn happy to just "get a good job" that they could care less, like you said. One of the reasons I prefer Black ownership OVER simply begging for a position in corporate America is owning a business TEACHES you how to build your own system from scratch so you learn the ins and outs of it. If it doesn't work, you know where the changes should be made. The only lasting solution will be for AfroAmericans to develop their own legal and law enforcement system.

Cyniqe Priggish......lol...???? You know I used to think that most people who called themselves Conservative didn't think about circumstances. They always complained about the breakdown of the traditional family without taking into consideration that modern wages no longer permits ONE MAN to support an entire family working full time. However the more I look at it the more I realize that the wrong behavior..... The wrong principles...or values if you will.....CREATE negative circumstances so many find themselves in. For example: Ofcourse it's hard for a single mother to take care of her children and work and cook and go to PTA meetings. But most single mothers CHOSE to have children outside of wedlock so they put themselves in that tough circumsance. And what about the no good dog-ass man who fathered the children? She CHOSE him too. I didn't bring that up to condemn single mothers, but to use a powerful example of how many of the circumsances poor and disenfranchised people find themselves in are of their own making. There are enough wealthy Black people with both economic and political power, Black Aldermen, and Black police officers in the city of Chicago to CHANGE THINGS in the Black community there. Why haven't they? You can't complain about negative circumstances when you have the opportunity to change them and refuse to. Black folks HAD Chicago.....and now Pakistanis are taking over formerly Black neighborhoods because of neglect. I KNOW your ass would miss me.....lol. Troy Because Conservative usually means traditional, most racists tend to identify with Conservatism because racism is part of the American tradition. As Bill Maher says: Being Conservative doesn't necessarily mean you're a racist.... But if you're racist, chances are you're a Conservative....lol. ObamaCare or The "Affordable Care Act" as it's officially called is a right-wing Republican healthcare plan that FORCES people to buy health insurane from the same companies that have been taking advantage of America for decades. It's not something a real liberal would support. What I mean is I support a society where men and women are treated equal across the board politically, economically, ect.... But I BELIEVE the best model for families would be for the man to work while the woman stays at home and raises the children atleast while they are young. I wouldn't FORCE anyone to adopt this method, I just believe it is ideal. As opposed to telling people that it doesn't matter when I know better and have seen it work. There are many ways to raise a family but only a few ways work in a way that brings the children up well balanced and productive. Whatever punishment you use it shouldn't cause permanent PHYSICAL damage. Psychological damage??? Hmmmmm....... ((Pioneer takes a puff from his pipe and ponders)) It could be argued that putting a scar on a person's mind to ensure they don't commit a violent crime again is often necessary for some people....I'm no psychologist so I'm not sure. I believe that you should use the force necessary to: a) Keep order in society b )Make sure that the punishment is strong enough to deter future crime Quite frankly, the punishment in many juridictions isn't tough enough for most repeat offenders which is why they aren't afraid of doing dirt and going back to prison. Here's a cat who's been living on the street all his life with no money, no job, no home....why should he care about going to prison where he'd be housed and fed for 5 to 10 years? Rob a person and get away....you got money. Rob a person and get caught....you got a bed, hot meals, and even healthcare. The only thing you got to worry about are the other prisoners raping or shanking you. I know that's a little simplistic but its' close to reality for many.

Troy I believe environment is a major part of it, but a fool will CREATE an unfavorable environment where one didn't previously exist. He's create a ghetto where one didn't previously exist. Even back in the 70s when Black men had good jobs making $16 and $17 and hour (in the 70s!!!!!) while many bought houses, land, and business.....too many WASTED their money on whiskey, heroin (which they called "herronnn"), and buying cars they didn't need every year just to have something to drive down south in and show off. I'm sure you remember there were a lot more REAL (not Amway) Black businesses operating in the 70s than there are today but because so many of the children didn't want to run their parent's businesses they sold them to foreigners. Decent Black people allowed the negative element to grow and this influences the environment. I've already left Detroit....lol...temporarily.....to go upstate (actually Western Michigan) to spread my message there. Out of anger and frustration as well as for economic purposes I've left that city numerous times only to return not really knowing why but feeling a strong urge to DO SOMETHING. I truly believe my calling...and the destiny of Black America...is here/there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZMCfxWN_X3Q I heard some others talking about it on the Sunday Morning News shows a couple weeks ago. Why are so many WHITE MEN interested in the rebuilding of America's blackest major city while Black folks all but ignore it?

I agree. Whites do tend to be more efficient and have an actual PURPOSE for why the steal and murder which in many cases makes their crimes more predictable and thus less scary. Also, it's been my observation that unless they are drug addicts most Whites who engage in crime have a definite purpose with which to use the resources they're killing and stealing to get like to defend some political/religious cause or to feed their family or buy some property. But compare that to the brother on the street with the doo-rag on who just wakes up half-high and decides to grab a gun and rob his friend and then rob a gas station on a whim just to grab $300 for more weed to smoke not giving a damn about feeding his kids or owning anything. Unlike the White criminal, he's not using the resources he's gotten from the crimes he's committed to actually improve his lot. Now I know you don't care whether or not Whites are afraid. But that's probably because you are retired, guaranteed a check in the mail, and not in the workforce so you don't have to rely on them hiring you or reviewing your application for jobs. When you still have to defend on someone for your sustenance you MUST care how they feel about you because any change in their feelings will have a direct impact on you.

Cyniqe & Troy You're comparing apples with oranges. You''re comparing a highly advanced highly organized system of warfare and organized crime.... -one that is FAR MORE IMMMORAL and causes FAR MORE DEATH AND DESTRUCTION- .....with a bunch of disorganized illiterate young punks who go around terrorizing their own neighborhoods. The former is advanced civilization gone wrong, but the latter is just plain uncivilized. Within the context of an advanced civilization you have enough positives to outweigh any negative images which is why Japan still gladly works with and allies with the United States despite the fact that she all but destroyed that nation...as opposed to doing business with the nation of Haiti who never fired a shot at Japan but have little to nothing to offer in terms of international relations. Atleast when it comes to organized white-collar crimes, high-crimes, and war crimes....or what you two call "real crime"...the perpetrators are targetting OTHER GROUPS. Atleast the perpetrarors and their families have a respect for eachother and they can walk down their own streets at night, send their own children to safe schools, and have an intellectual discussion with eachother. Most of these clowns in the ghetto are victimizing their own people for extremely limited resources. And for what? To feed themselves and their families and build schools and hospitals? Hell no...... To smoke more dope, do more drinking and partying, and more ho-hopping before they end up killed or back in the pen because that's what they expect their future to be anyway. The REAL criminals are much worse....I'll give you that. And they will pay for their crimes against humanity either in this life and/or in the next. But the petty criminals..... The boys in the hood are only a menace to themselves and their own community which is why the White wealthy majority in this nation doesn't give a damn how savage they become as long as they stay among their own. So you're right, Whites have no reason to be afraid. Perhaps it's OTHER BLACK PEOPLE who should be afraid.

No question that for the most part the war on drugs in a war on AfroAmericans. Infact it goes deeper than that...... It's clear that racist workingclass Whites didn't like the fact that so many Black pepole were accumulating wealth by working in factories and other labor jobs in America's cities and that anger created an atmosphere where most of those manufacturing jobs could be moved out out of the inner cities and eventually overseas. Then they moved the dope in for young men to sell and began to SELECTIVELY TARGET those whom they choose to prosecute and imprison. Those are facts. But this is the question.... Black people have suspected since the 60s and KNOWN since 1996 that these covert groups were bringing dope into the hood. So why are so many still selling it KNOWING that it's a trick and trap to destroy the community and get them thrown in jail? See, I believe this is merely a SYMPTOM of a much greater problem. This is a very sad thing to say bro...... You might ban my from this site after saying this but.......... It's become clear to me that many of our people are simply intellectually deficient. In other words too many are just plain STUPID and can't think well enough to avoid the tricks and traps set out to destroy them. White racists in power know this and they take advantage of them. If it's not drugs, it's AIDS, or the flood in New Orleans, or some other tool used to destroy them that they can't seem to think clearly enough to escape. I mentioned this before but I believe intelligent educated Black people have a responsibility to look out for those of our people who...whether it's a minority or majority of them...can't look out for themselves.

The George Zimmerman trial and especially the peripheral affairs that surrounded it has really forced me to re-evaluate my political and social ideaology. I'm not talking about the behavior of George Zimmerman himself. That's an easy one....he murdered that boy. But more specifically I'm talking about: -The defense of Rachel Jeantel's disgraceful testimony by so many responsible Black people. -During the trial when it came to listening to public responses, I saw so many Black people who seemed not to be able to talk properly or express themselves adequately despite the fact that they were born and raised in this nation and it was embarassing. -The fact that like TOO MANY Black families today Trayvon came from a broken home where his mother (Sabrina Fulton) had a different last name than he or his father and they all lived separately with his father staying with his girlfriend. -All the marching and crying and shouting over an innocent boy who was murdered by only a fraction of that response for the thousands of Black youth that have been murdered by eachother in the ghettos of America. But that was just the last straw for that poor camel, lol. That was just the pebble that tipped the scale. My reconsidering my political views had been a long time in the making. The rampant immorality, criminality, illiteracy, and ignorance contributing to the deterioration of the Black community, and worst of all the lack of adequate response of decent Black leaders TO this deterioration..... ~indeed, the willingness of so many Black leaders who KNOW BETTER to instead of coming together to strategically remove the negative elements of the Black community in order to make it stronger have decided to DEFEND so many of the negative elements at any cost~ ....has contributed to me re-thinking my political positions on a variety of subjects. Am I a Republican? Hell no. Them, the Tea Party, and those radicals who didn't like the moral restrictions of the Republican Party and left who now call themselves "Libertarians".....seem to harbor a right-wing facism that I could never be apart of. But right now the Democrats and Liberals don't look to attractive either because they seem to be supporting every immoral stupid agenda EXCEPT the ones they were founded on. Liberal USED TO mean you supported Black people's rights, women's rights, and labor unions. Now it means you support homosexuals getting married, secular/atheism, broken families, illegal immigration, ect.....you gotta take the whole package now. Even a lot of so-called Civil Rights leaders who call themselves "Reverend" are going along with some of the immoral garbage that Democrats have attached themselves to. *I support Universal Health Care But I don't support ObamaCare *I support women's rights to be equal But I support traditional gender roles for men and women *I'm against the mandatory drug laws and 3 strikes But I'm a very strong supporter of tough law enforcement *I believe in corporal punishment both at home AND in school But I believe the state should step in and take children away in abusive homes *I don't believe in the death penalty But I believe certain crimes demand a physical punishment So what am I........ Conservative? Conservative with a Liberal leaning? Liberal with a Conservative leaning? Reformed Liberal? I may not be exactly sure of where I stand politically but one things is for sure, there are a lot of Black men out there who think like me and we've been growing for years.

Now you know you're coming up, lol. The next step is to start demanding royalties.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9rXXcsXX3c&feature=player_detailpage

Interesting point...... Although I know most police departments tend to stop Black men more than other demographic groups believe it or not I hadn't really looked at it from that point of view. However, this alleviates my dismay only a little bit because from what I've observed in America so far I'm still convinced that too many Black youth have been given over to a "criminal mind" that seems to JUSTIFY in the minds of too many the rough behavior they get from the police. When you as a White person grow up in a society where you see Black men....not just on television but in REAL LIFE....bragging about who they busted in the mouth, bragging about how much dope they sold, walking around slinging their arms and rapping to themselves up and down the street, bragging about being a thug or criminal. These White boys who see this don't erase all of these images when they join the police force, they keep them in their mind if only in the subconscious. Police officers come from the same population pool that sounds the rest of America, they are human being prone to the same prejudices despite their training. This doesn't justify shooting an innocent unarmed man in the back then handcuffing him ofcourse, but the criminal mindedness and criminal history of so many of our young brothers put things in context.

((grin))

Dr West is a brilliant defender of the poor and of human rights. I saw him on Real Time with Bill Maher the other day and he constantly makes his position clear that as a Black man and as a Christian he loves and supports Obama but feels it's his duty (and indeed it is) to call him out on some of his policies. In the tradition of most great scholars and philosophers he should have a large following of disciples dedicated to soaking up every bit of knowledge and understanding that drips from his lips. A fraternity or "order" should be started and named after him.....seriously.

Bill O'Reilly is a right wing hack........... But you know what, he's right., Many White people ARE afraid of AfroAmericans. But that's only part of the problem, other races are afraid of Black people too. . Not only do AfroAmericans have problems with White police, but too often our people have problems with the Chinese, Koreans, Arabs, and Pakistanis who own businesses in Black neighborhoods. Most of their problems don't come from the Black nationalists who resent them owing property in Black neighborhoods but from their regular customers who routinely try to cheat and steal from them I was warned that as I got older I would become more conservative. Well..... The fact is, it's the ERRATIC and often VIOLENT behavior (in actions and in speech) that so many AfroAmericans display on a regular basis in public that is the basis for these feelings. Too many of our people are actually feeding the very racism so many complain of. How many other people do you see sitting around trainstations, malls, and other public places with grins on thier faces LOUDLY bragging about who they fucked up the other day or who will get their head busted wide open if they didn't pay that money back? I don't hear Asians talking like that in public. How many other women do you see growling and cussing at their children or calling eachother "bitch" on a regular basis and talking about who they're going to beat up? What other women act like this? They'd consider it shameful to display such masculine and un-motherly behavior. And being from Detroit I can say with confidence that the culture of Black people actually IS in part responsible for the condition of the city. The crime, the violence, the "I don't give a fuck" attitude, the laziness....all of that has contributed to Detroit being in the state that it's in today. Wealthy White suburbanites just sit back and take advantage of a weakness that already existed. It also contributed to Washington DC, parts of Chicago, and parts of New York being where THEY are or were until immigrants from Asia move in and take over cleaning up the mess that so many of our people made. The time for making excuses are over. Having been through out most of this nation, I can safely say that our people have a VERY serious problem and it's one only God and ourselves can solve. We need to clean up house and take responsibility for our behavior and condition in this nation. Decent Black men and women (especially the men) need to start standing up more and demanding better of our people and especially our youth.

"I'M JUST WILD ABOUT HARREEEEEYY...... AND HARRY'S WILD ABOUT MEEEEEE....." Be quiet lady, nobody is making "unflattering presumptions" about Mr Brown I just asked the brother did he ever engage in dialog or discuss the topics of the threads he starts....lol.

Cynique Oh...you're sleeping! No wonder you have such a hard time trying to understand what I tell you, lol. BTW when have I ever denied being religious? I said months ago in another thread that one doesn't necessarily NEED religion in order to believe in and worship God. That doesn't necessarily translate to being non-religious....... Except when you put on a pair of Cynique's special 3-D glasses......lol....that magically projects every word and imagine them to jump out of the screen to attack. Booooiioooiiiinnng!

When I see the trailer for that movie on television I think of the threads you've done on this tragedy. I haven't seen the movie yet and it appears to have been done by a talented young brother. However what I do find a little disturbing is the HISTORY of Mr.Grant's life. According to the film he sold dope, had a trouble life, and even went to prison. Now although this doesn't necessarily make him a "bad person" and CERTAINLY doesn't warrant him being tossed about and shot in the back by transit cops......it doesn't look good. It kind of "muddy's" the image of him as a martyr. I'm not sure if these are actual facts, or if the director used a bit of his poetic license to add to Mr. Grant's character but it certainly doesn't look good for so many Black victims of racism and police brutality to have records of drug involvement and criminality themselves. Outside of Trayvon Martin, how many times do we have an.....I guess "opportunity" for lack of a better term....of a CLEAR CUT case of a decent Black man with no criminal background who was doing absolutely nothing wrong being hunted down and shot point blank by the police? Why do so many of these cases end up with the victim being smeared with a shady background?

Sometimes when I'm watching a discussion on television about the Zimmerman trial I look at a clock and actually time the amount of minutes it takes for a conservative to mention CHICAGO and how many Black youth were killed during the past week. It's there talking point and they use it in almost every discussion to offset the focus on racism and distract from the topic. They do the same thing with the word "nigger". Everytime a famous White person is caught on tape using the word and they can't wiggle their way out or deny it, their defenders often point to the fact that so many Black youth use it also as an excuse or distraction. I remember when Don Imus called Black female basketball players some "nappy headed hoes" instead of dealing with THAT, many started pointing to the rappers who used that word often. All the more reason like Malcolm said Black people must be analytical enough (or keen/sharp enough) to be able to figure out the tricks and lies and deceptions their enemy uses against them. But on another tip, I MUST say that in the eyes of most people who reside in America of any race.....Black people will looked "uncredible" if they raise hell over the Zimmerman trial while scores of Black people are being killed by their own everyday. Yes it's a conservative talking point. But it's also the truth and it must be dealt with.

I think the title of this thread mixes apples with oranges. It starts off focusing on one's understanding of divination and then focuses on one's beliefs in magic and in my opinion divination and magic are different. Divination is often confused with magic when....although they may interwine at times...are 2 difference subjects. Cynique brings up a good point that we must first ascertain a proper definition of Divination before deciding whether or not it makes sense. The dictionary defines divination as seeking knowledge by supernatural means. However "magic" has 2 definitions...... -Controling nature by SUPER-natural means -A form of entertainment based on illusions. Divination makes sense to me in the sense that I acknowledge it's existence even if I'm not sure how it operates. I believe in magic too. Both definitions. But I also believe there are a lot of frauds out there.