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richardmurray last won the day on May 25

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    In reply to 

    @ProfD   Your hope in reply  lead to a great topic, at least to me. The topic is the purpose of educational institutions in the english colonies to 2022 in the usa. 
    You have three avenues.

    White european



    White european mass education < meaning schools> was originally for religious teaching. Apprenticeship , was the primary tool for education in the crafts or philosophical arts. The first colleges in the usa had one function, that they all still maintain today, a place where rich white male children can come together and make alliances for the future. ... now going through time, white women gained colleges but they were designed to prepare for wifedom, not working or owning anything. Classes on homelife dominated those schools originally. ... later on whites like woodrow wilson gave the college of new jersey their first academic requirements, which was viewed as radical at that time. That time being the late 1800s early 1900s so.then after world war two, the statian empire through the leadership of FD Roosevelt, made the gi bill so all the male soldiers just finished killing for the empire, were preoccupied with school and financial stipends, not poverty and thoughts of money making through arms. That led to the modern idea of the education system being about self improvement and a way to  create a peaceful or positive multiracial society. 

    Indigenous mass education was originally,  absent any native american or indigenous input , meant to eliminate the culture of the native american in the remaining survivors of the native american community. As one navajo poet said, most native american poets don't write in their native tongue, which their traditional culture will allow but , they don't know their traditional culture, and the reason is the schools whites owned , controlled, used to do said purpose. Now in the 1950s, note the time between the first white invading immigrants and the 1950s, native american communities rallied against these institutions, with varying levels of success. I think the last of those schools existed in the 1990s. But, Native americans today, absent money, absent power, absent knowledge are trying to relearn their own culture. A very hard thing to do when everything is against your community. Cause the damage in the past wasn't little. 

    Black mass or individual education was banned legally or culturally within the usa or the european colonies that preceded it holistically, until the end of the war between the states. Now the Historical Black Colleges and Universities, most of whom were financed by white religious organizations , had two purposes. Religious indoctrination plus craft teaching. The three key leaders to HBCU's in my view is frederick douglass/booker t washington/web dubois. Each black male had four things in common : each was black, male, had positive relations on a personal level with financially wealthy whites, had a strong belief in the ability of education to empower. To the issue here that last point is massive. The HBCU's eventually taught more than physical crafts and started teaching law or chemistry. But, the black leadership of the day, those three men I spoke of, had an idea that black people absent ownership could educate our way into some positive situation. Over time,the white religious groups stopped funding the schools and many fell. But those who survived have within each of them a similar community of black students, like the white students that originally inhabited in majority and still inhabt in minority, the ivy league schools. A black one percent. 

    Now what does this have to do with HBCU's getting more membership, or the role of affirmative action in the educational system? 

    The problem is the initial role of educational systems, and how they haven't functionally changed from their original premise. 

    I am from NYC, Harlem in particular, I know COlombia University very well. I can tell you with certainty that most whites know colombia is a place to connect to the money. Yeah, they want to learn or study. But, the role of colleges is to connect to the money.
    Native americans exist in NY state, the cloest tribe is on the tip of long island, a place called montauk. But it isn't like their language or culture is taught in schools. 
    And I will not speak for any of you... but, I persoanlly know a ton of black matriculated people older than me, my generation, younger than me. Civil engineers/chemical engineers/electrical engineers/physicists/mathemeticians yes... and not just recent immegres from jamaica or nigeria, yes, DOSers, that is right , people descended from black people enslaved in the usa. As a teenager, I knew of black kids in bronx science/brooklyn tech/styvesant, as well as in brandeis... educationally, I don't see anything wrong with the black community. But, the issue isn't education. It isn't even entry. Like myself most black people in NYC didn't get affirmative action to go to school. The issue is the role of the educational system to opportunity.  The historical black colleges were not for collections of fiscally wealthy blacks cause too few , I realize when I use absolute words in this forum somebody has to comment I am wrong for being absolute in my words, fiscally wealthy blacks existed. Now today a fiscal black elite exists but they haven't done their part. 

    Before I go into their part, my closing point on education education systems in the usa is, they are not for education. They either serve as gated communities for fiscally wealthy children to keep the money tight/are cultural weapons to annihilate or diminish non white or non white european culture/ or they are for religious cultural teachings that don't respect the fiscal capitalistic reality of the usa. And that is ownership is key, not labor. IF you own, you are the slavemaster. Everybody else is either a slave/overseer/crafts person but everybody else works for you, and at your behest, not cause any from everybody else merits it. It is cause you the owner want them.

    Now, to the black fiscal elite. 
    I don't know how many black people were paid to go to school by a relative who was a financially successful singers/thespians/athlete... but I am 99% certain that said relatives didn't send 90% of their kin to HBCUs. 
    So, before the fiscally poor black children are asked to go to HBCU's 99% of the fiscally wealthy or attached to fiscally wealthy black children need to go to HBCU's first. 

    And that also provides that investment that is badly needed. 

    1. Show previous comments  1 more
    2. richardmurray


      @ProfD I think you can write it better yourself. but thank you.

      Two reasons,

      1. It was away from Nels topic. Nels isn't speaking about the educational system. he is speaking about affirmative action, which was/is applied throughout the bureaucracy. He focused on the issue of college enrollment, but affirmative action also involves municipal labor plus labor in private enterprise.  And I wasn't interested in talking about affirmative action much.

      2. When I segway away from topic with one of these long winded replies I am used to veering to my personal page. Maybe over time I will feel more comfortable like the rest of you. I Am very new to using forums compared to the rest of you.

    3. ProfD


      Got it.  I understand your rationale for not posting it in that thread. 


      Then, I also have to quesion where that guy is coming from in his thoughts on a black discussion forum. 


      Still, the perspective you've provided on the educational system could be the subject of a new thread.  Only if/whenever you feel comfortable putting it out there.   Thanks for sharing it. 😎

    4. richardmurray


      @ProfD  thank you


      fair enough, I don't know you or nels, but ... I don't question where  nels is coming from. I know black people offline who talk the same way. I read black people , in speeches from the time of the war between the states, who spoke similar. It isn't about hating black or ignoring white. But, the philosophy is black accountability overrides white blame. In fairness, the labor of black people in the usa, in the over 150 years since the war between the states ended, explains why said philosophy has prevalence. Most black people in said time frame who achieved a level of success above living: from having a job or surviving military boot camp to being president of the usa or a billionaire,did it as a lone black in a white communal setting. Thus today, most black people offline and in in large number in voice online, have a self accountability mentality.  When a black person is not used to having a community to aid or defend them, they have to hold themselves accountable, even from the attacks from whites.  It isn't fair but I comprehend. Nels just wants individual or collective accountability no matter what. He isn't alone. 


      and thank you again. 

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