Everything that happens is already determined…

[Troy]

…. so say the determinists.

 

toss a ball in the air. If we know the force applied, we know the exact trajectory the bar will take.

 

The same as true not just for your life but the entire universe. Free will is an illusion.
 

Our minds are too feeble to calculate the exact trajectory of our lives, or even  wrap our brains around the entire notion, but that doesn’t make it untrue.

 

Maybe as people get older, they begin to realize this, on some level, and they become increasingly bored with life. In much the same way a little kid can be entertained by the game, I Declare War, as they grow older they begin to find the game boring —dumb even.

 

Gives new meaning to the saying “everything happens for a reason.“

[ProfD]

It must have been a nice life as a Greek philosopher to sit around all day eating grapes and...thinking.  These men didn't work or produce anything anything tangible.  No science or engineering.  Just  thoughts.

[Delano]

Wind is difficult to predict. There's a random number generator thay used the wind as the seed.

1 minute ago, ProfD said:

science or engineering.  Just  thoughts.

The only thing more important than thought is imagination. At least to me.

[aka Contrarian]

Well, alright. Y'all have served up a subject  that's my  cup of tea, gone to a place where I dwell... Too bad I can't contribute something profound to add to the provocative ideas the 3 of you have set forth. But, when all is said and done. this "cynical contrarian" agrees with what you've  said and I have nothing original to propose.

 

All my life I  have pondered and contemplated and now, in the twilight of my years, have ended up as mystified as ever. I know that I know nothing. I suspect certain things, however. One of which is that I'm not alone is my journey, that there is an invisible force that shows up in my time of need and helps me;  even protects me. Guardian angel? Spiritual guide? God? Who knows? Am I even alive, or is this all a dream. Why am I here? Damned if I know. Dare I further suspect that there's more to our existence than meets the eye.  A lotta stuff  we can't see or comprehend.

 

Down through the ages men masquerading as sages have ventured to solve life and condense their conclusions into words that other men have defined, - the sounds of "idiots saying nothing"? (Notice women have been conspicuouly absent among famous philosophers.)

 

I am currently dabbling in Existentialism which asks the question does life have any meaning. To which I reply: "Maybe."

  

Sooooo, here I am, left to ramble snd babble and - not wake up one morning.

[ProfD]

Not a day goes by that I don't ask myself, why am I still here.  

 

Then, I'll get a text message or a phone call that somebody needs something.

 

Sure enough, those people will find another benefactor when I'm dead and gone. 

 

I'd hate to believe the universe has determined that my purpose for being here is to help people over a few more decades. 

 

Like a Greek philosopher, I'd prefer to have that luxury to plop down at my piano and play music all day.  

 

Nope...for the man to whom much is given or earned, much is required and/or expected to be returned.

[Delano]

Life means whatever you say it means and that is 100% true. Purpose is what you do with that meaning.

For someone who has nothing to add you still contribute golden nuggets of wisdom. Audrey Lorde is a big thinker. Her and Jimmy Baldwin.  

[Delano]

9 hours ago, ProfD said:

 

Like a Greek philosopher, I'd prefer to have that luxury to plop down at my piano and play music all day

You have that option

[frankster]

On 3/3/2024 at 8:08 PM, Troy said:

…. so say the determinists.

 

toss a ball in the air. If we know the force applied, we know the exact trajectory the bar will take.

 

The same as true not just for your life but the entire universe. Free will is an illusion.

Free Will is Real...in this reality - to a large extent it is govern by your Know How.

You have the free will to toss the ball or not  -The Decision is yours.

Once the ball is toss it is now a matter of Skill and Know How -  to understand or predict what will happen next.

 

On 3/3/2024 at 8:08 PM, Troy said:

Our minds are too feeble to calculate the exact trajectory of our lives, or even  wrap our brains around the entire notion, but that doesn’t make it untrue.

True...The exact trajectory and all the minutia involved is beyond our understanding at this point in our development

But the Ancients teach us that the language of the Universe is Mathematics.....Which is exact.

Hence Calculus tells us exactly where the tossed ball will travel and land.

Righteuosness is Living Maths

 

 

On 3/3/2024 at 8:08 PM, Troy said:

 

Maybe as people get older, they begin to realize this, on some level, and they become increasingly bored with life. In much the same way a little kid can be entertained by the game, I Declare War, as they grow older they begin to find the game boring —dumb even.

Maybe....or could it be a lack of certain chemical reactions in the human body - that results in both boredom and aging.

 

On 3/3/2024 at 8:08 PM, Troy said:

 

Gives new meaning to the saying “everything happens for a reason.“

Everything has a Cause....if you find the Cause you may find the Reason and or Purpose

 

On 3/4/2024 at 10:15 AM, ProfD said:

It must have been a nice life as a Greek philosopher to sit around all day eating grapes and...thinking.  These men didn't work or produce anything anything tangible.  No science or engineering.  Just  thoughts.

Man can Manipulate Thoughts - Thinking.

Thoughts are their own self evident being and has no human ownership

exception when we speak in past tense.

 

19 hours ago, Delano said:

Life means whatever you say it means and that is 100% true. Purpose is what you do with that meaning.

For someone who has nothing to add you still contribute golden nuggets of wisdom. Audrey Lorde is a big thinker. Her and Jimmy Baldwin.  

The Purpose of Life is to Live.....

 

On 3/4/2024 at 12:25 PM, aka Contrarian said:

Well, alright. Y'all have served up a subject  that's my  cup of tea, gone to a place where I dwell... Too bad I can't contribute something profound to add to the provocative ideas the 3 of you have set forth. But, when all is said and done. this "cynical contrarian" agrees with what you've  said and I have nothing original to propose.

Seems you no longer live there?

 

On 3/4/2024 at 12:25 PM, aka Contrarian said:

 

All my life I  have pondered and contemplated and now, in the twilight of my years, have ended up as mystified as ever. I know that I know nothing. I suspect certain things, however.

The More you Know...The more you realize how little you know

 

On 3/4/2024 at 12:25 PM, aka Contrarian said:

 

 

One of which is that I'm not alone is my journey, that there is an invisible force that shows up in my time of need and helps me;  even protects me. Guardian angel? Spiritual guide? God? Who knows? Am I even alive, or is this all a dream. Why am I here? Damned if I know. Dare I further suspect that there's more to our existence than meets the eye.  A lotta stuff  we can't see or comprehend.

Fact is often stranger than fiction....and Visible light is miniscule part of the ElectroMagnetic Spectrum so is Audible Frequency. - in other words there is more things in this world than we can ever think of.

I have concluded its all a dream

 

On 3/4/2024 at 12:25 PM, aka Contrarian said:

 

Down through the ages men masquerading as sages have ventured to solve life and condense their conclusions into words that other men have defined, - the sounds of "idiots saying nothing"? (Notice women have been conspicuouly absent among famous philosophers.)

Some of these men....Could have been women or stole the works of Women - We live in a very Sexist world

 

On 3/4/2024 at 12:25 PM, aka Contrarian said:

I am currently dabbling in Existentialism which asks the question does life have any meaning. To which I reply: "Maybe."

  

Sooooo, here I am, left to ramble snd babble and - not wake up one morning.

Yes....an Opportunity to create Meaning - to paraphrase a previous poster if not yourself.

[aka Contrarian]

@franksterif you have decided "its all a dream" , then all of the rebuttals, explanations, and conclusions that you put forth in response to our assertions, explanations, and conclusions may not apply in the reality of being awake. 

Knowing that we know not, would hold true, however.

                   

[frankster]

8 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

@franksterif you have decided "its all a dream" ,

Yes.

 

8 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

then all of the rebuttals, explanations, and conclusions that you put forth in response to our assertions, explanations, and conclusions may not apply in the reality of being awake. 

It is a dream that Persist ....from which we awake exclusively at Death - Only to realize that we are not the Dreamer.....But Imaginal creatures of the Dreamer

 

8 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

Knowing that we know not, would hold true, however.

                   

Yes.....since All Truths are but Half Truths

[Pioneer1]

Troy

Do you mean Determined or Known?

I'm not sure if EVERYTHING is pre-determined....meaning designed and forced to occur exactly the way it's played out.

Perhaps some things are, but I don't believe all things are.

 

However I DO believe all things....including future events...are known by The Divine.
Even those events that aren't being influenced or designed to happen are atleast known about.

The police can monitor criminals and know when and exactly how a drug deal went down without actually participating in or influencing it in any way.

 

 

 

frankster

 

 

It is a dream that Persist ....from which we awake exclusively at Death - Only to realize that we are not the Dreamer.....But Imaginal creatures of the Dreamer

Or perhaps, some people will die and enter another "dream" in which they will continue their experiences.
 

[Troy]

8 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Do you mean Determined or Known?

I mean determined and therefore knowable, by a sufficiently intelligent entity, but not by us mere humans or anything built by us.

 

Even the dream/dreamer Frankster speaks of are predetermined.

 

 

[Pioneer1]

I'm not sure why it has to be ONE or the OTHER.

I personally believe that some things are pre-determined and destined to happen and others are left to chance.

 

I also believe that there are Entities (not just One) who DO know the future and aspects of it but still aren't directly involved in manipulating it.

They are just in a position to know more because of their higher plane of existence.

 

Hypothetically, if everything indeed WAS pre-determined then that means people shouldn't be Divinely punished for bad behavior because it was already determined that they would behave as such so they were "programmed" to or essentially forced to do the deed.

Infact....

Perhaps NOBODY should be punished at all for their behavior if all of it were hypothetically pre-ordained.

[frankster]

On 3/7/2024 at 9:01 PM, Pioneer1 said:

frankster

It is a dream that Persist ....from which we awake exclusively at Death - Only to realize that we are not the Dreamer.....But Imaginal creatures of the Dreamer

Or perhaps, some people will die and enter another "dream" in which they will continue their experiences.
 

Yes....Dreams are a doorway to another Reality.

[Pioneer1]

7 minutes ago, frankster said:

Yes....Dreams are a doorway to another Reality.

Lol....I believe I taught you that.

[Troy]

A predetermined opening of doorway to another predetermined reality.

 

Pioneers we should punish evil but not mistake those actions for ones have not been predetermined. 

[Pioneer1]

Troy

 

1. How do we know that another Reality we enter into is also pre-determined?

It could be totally random or just PARTIALLY pre-determined.

 

2.  But if EVERYTHING is predetermined as you suggest, then there ARE NO actions that haven't been pre-determined.

 

If all behavior has been planned and controlled beyond the individual, then they are not responsible FOR their behavior and thus shouldn't be punished....any more than an actor who plays a killer should be punished for his role.

 

Infact....in a PRE-DETERMINED Reality, does "evil" really exist?
 

[frankster]

3 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Lol....I believe I taught you that.

 ....in your dreams

[Pioneer1]

23 minutes ago, frankster said:

 ....in your dreams

 

Precisely....lol.
This one to be exact?

[frankster]

43 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Precisely....lol.
This one to be exact?

Which one?

cause it's not so  in mine

[Pioneer1]

This raises another question.........

When one individual interacts with another....do they share ONE SAME Reality or is it TWO SEPARATE Realities temporarily or partially integrating and engaging eachother?

[frankster]

25 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

This raises another question.........

When one individual interacts with another....do they share ONE SAME Reality or is it TWO SEPARATE Realities temporarily or partially integrating and engaging eachother?

They share the same Root Reality till a point of Divergence occurs.

[Delano]

If an omniscient being knows the future then it means the future is predetermined. And gree will is a chimera 

[ProfD]

On 3/5/2024 at 1:12 AM, Delano said:

You have that option

Surely, I could blow off my responsibilities and sit around playing piano all day. 

 

So, either my free will won't allow me that luxury or my conscience has placed a higher calling on my purpose.

 

I hope that while I still have the physical and mental capacity, the universe will absolve my responsibilities and reward me with unlimited time to indulge my passion.

 

Now, the question becomes if today or tomorrow, I said f8ck it all, I'm just gonna do my thing...would that be pre-determined.

[Delano]

8 hours ago, ProfD said:

Surely, I could blow off my responsibilities and sit around playing piano all day. 

 

So, either my free will won't allow me that luxury or my conscience has placed a higher calling on my purpose.

 

I hope that while I still have the physical and mental capacity, the universe will absolve my responsibilities and reward me with unlimited time to indulge my passion.

 

Now, the question becomes if today or tomorrow, I said f8ck it all, I'm just gonna do my thing...would that be pre-determined.

You either don't have freedom of choice or will .

Out genetics programming and culture make free will nearly impossible. Since they set the boundaries of what we believe is possible 

[frankster]

11 hours ago, Delano said:

If an omniscient being knows the future then it means the future is predetermined. And gree will is a chimera 

 if an omniscient being knows the future.....It does not  mean we have No Free Will.

 Knowing the future is a function of  Knowledge Experience and Know How..

As our  knowledge increase so does our ability to forecast future events....this in no way compromise our Free Will or Decision making capabilities.

 

46 minutes ago, Delano said:

You either don't have freedom of choice or will .

We have both....Our Will is Expressed in the Choices we make.

 

46 minutes ago, Delano said:

Out genetics programming and culture make free will nearly impossible. Since they set the boundaries of what we believe is possible 

How so....please explain?

[Pioneer1]

12 hours ago, Delano said:

If an omniscient being knows the future then it means the future is predetermined. 

Not necessarily.
Because there may be MULTIPLE futures in  MULTIPLE Realities.

An individual's future may be yet to be determined depending on their choices.

The Omniscient Being knows the DIFFERENT futures/outcomes of all the DIFFERENT directions they could go but they still can go in any direction they choose. 

[Troy]

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

The Omniscient Being knows the DIFFERENT futures/outcomes of all the DIFFERENT directions they could go but they still can go in any direction they choose. 

Think that through for second… 

 

at any rate, what difference does it make? The notion of a choice or free will is an illusion, a function of our being constrained in time.

 

The omniscient being you are referring to can move through time the way you or I walk up and down the street. The concept of the passage of time is nonsensical. They could observe something that “happened” 2000 years ago or 2000 years in the “future” it’s all the same. 

 

I bet you have no problem accepting that you can’t change the past, the future is no different.

[Pioneer1]

Troy

 

 

Think that through for second… 

 

 I have.
I suggest you think OUTSIDE of the box and ponder on what I said about multiple Realities.

 

 

 

 

The omniscient being you are referring to can move through time the way you or I walk up and down the street. The concept of the passage of time is nonsensical. 

 

Time is just a REFERENCE.
It's abstract....used to mark what which is concrete.

What is moved through isn't "time" itself, but the different Realities in which the concept of time exists.

 

 

 

 

They could observe something that “happened” 2000 years ago or 2000 years in the “future” it’s all the same. 

 

I wouldn't say it's "all the same" but yes, they could move 2000 years back into A past or 2000 years into A future.
 

 

 

 

 

I bet you have no problem accepting that you can’t change the past, the future is no different.

 

You probably can't change YOUR past, but there are MULTIPLE pasts just like there are MULTIPLE futures.

In another "past", Word War 3 has already occurred and this world has experienced nuclear destruction.

You still didn't answer my questions about why "evil" should be punished if the deed was already pre-determined to occur; and according to that logic...does "evil" really exist?
 

[Troy]

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

"evil" should be punished if the deed was already pre-determined to occur; and according to that logic...does "evil" really exist?

of course, evil should be discouraged and when excessive punished.

 

As corporeal beings, bound by the constraints of the passage of time we exist in the world with the known and fixed past, and unknown but equally fixed future. We are, necessarily, content with the illusion of free will— otherwise, what meaning with life have?
 

If there are multiple past and multiple futures, as some speculate, one can argue they’re all predetermined as well. 
 

And much the same way. We are unable to see the predetermined future. We are also unable to experience different realities within the Multiverse.

[Pioneer1]

Troy

 

 

of course, evil should be discouraged and when excessive punished.

 

Why would you punish someone who did something they had no choice over?

If their actions were "pre determined"...they couldn't help but to follow the script, right?

 

 

 

 

As corporeal beings, bound by the constraints of the passage of time we exist in the world with the known and fixed past,

 

...for the MOST part, lol.

But the soul can and does travel outside of this Realm.

 

 

 

 

We are, necessarily, content with the illusion of free will— otherwise, what meaning with life have?

 

If you didn't have a measure of "free will" you'd be stuck eating the same foods you were fed as a child and couldn't feed yourself.

The fact that you started TRYING different foods as you got older is just a minor testimony to your free will.

 

 

 

If there are multiple past and multiple futures, as some speculate, one can argue they’re all predetermined as well. 

 

Some are....some are not.

Even IF these different futures are pre-determined, YOU aren't necessarily destined to experience a specific one.

 

Imagine it's "movie night" and you have 5 different of your favorite movies to choose from.

You already know the outcome of each movie because you've watched them all so much....but what you watch THAT NIGHT is you choice.
It's not pre-determined.
You may decide to watch one particular movie that day and by the time you make it home changed your mind to watch another.

Either way...the movies are set but YOU don't necessarily know which one you'll experience.

 

 We are also unable to experience different realities within the Multiverse.

 

You do so everytime you dream.
 

[Delano]

My feelings is that people have patterns in life. I don't know if the patterns are set or a function of their personality. In addition meeting some people has felt like destiny. One of the things I have seen often is a person dating a certain type. The type is t something physical rather it emotional or psychological. It's like you choose each other to learn or fill a particular need.

 

 

[Troy]

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

"pre determined"...they couldn't help but to follow the script, right?

punishing them is following the script.

 

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

But the soul can and does travel outside of this Realm.

i’m not gonna try to extend the argument to the Soul, as I don’t no what you think it is, whether it adheres to the laws of physics. 
 

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

The fact that you started TRYING different foods as you got older is just a minor testimony to your free will.

You’re stuck on the idea that our perception of choice is proof of a nondeterministic state. 
 

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

You do so everytime you dream.

 

That is one way to view a dream.

 

@Delano we have the ability to see some of the patterns. maybe that is why some people believe if you know the initial conditions of one’s birth, like their relative place in the cosmos, you can predict a lot about their lives.

[Delano]

1 hour ago, Troy said:

You’re stuck on the idea that our perception of choice is proof of a nondeterministic state. 

That's is tight.

 

1 hour ago, Troy said:

 

@Delano we have the ability to see some of the patterns. maybe that is why some people believe if you know the initial conditions of one’s birth, like their relative place in the cosmos, you can predict a lot about their lives

That has been my experience.

[aka Contrarian]

So it is debatable that in a set of circumstances having a variety of outcomes, the final result is dependent on which choice your freewill enabled you to make.

To me , this raises the question of whether we are dealing with multi-verses instead of a single universe; parallel worlds  that we can,  and do shift between via the decisions we make.

 If that be the case, what seems to be pre-determined would differ from world to world.

It's all very mind boggling. And I remain entangled in my mind-set of knowing nothing.

I stumbled, and fell on my way into a supermarket and busted my knee cap. Now I'm hobbling around, battling the pain. I wonder if in a parallel world I decided not to go grocery shopping, and my knee is fine.

 

[ProfD]

3 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

I stumbled, and fell on my way into a supermarket and busted my knee cap. Now I'm hobbling around, battling the pain. I wonder if in a parallel world I decided not to go grocery shopping, and my knee is fine.

Bummer. Hopefully pain relievers are helping in the battle.

 

In a parallel world, you would have 1) ordered groceries online and had delivery or 2) wrote out a list and sent one of the great-grand-chil'ren to the grocery store.

 

That's neither here or there because the reality is a knee injury.

 

Enjoy cooking and/or eating whatever you bought from the store.

 

Most importantly, rest and recuperate.

[Troy]

3 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

what seems to be pre-determined would differ from world to world.

of course, but it is debatable if one can shift between those different realities, or if different versions of you exist and that can never interact.

 

Sorry to hear about your. It could be in a different universe we don’t have knees, or we don’t stop at grocery stores. Maybe we don’t even experience pain.

 

Of course, we don’t experience those realities. Just this one, and this one has made better by the presence of the poster formerly known as Cynique

[Pioneer1]

Troy

 

punishing them is following the script.

 

Then is it really "punishment"?

And when those who do wrong and are NOT "punished" and get away with it, should we also presume that this is too is part of the script?

Is "injustice" part of the script?
 

 

i’m not gonna try to extend the argument to the Soul, as I don’t no what you think it is, whether it adheres to the laws of physics. 
 
Well, my understanding is that the Soul IS me and you.

We don't simply "have" Souls, we ARE Souls.

 

Our Souls are what is moving in and out of different Realities...not our meat suits....lol.

 

 

 

 

That is one way to view a dream.

 

Sure there are other explanations for what dreams are, but do any of them make MORE SENSE than what I just wrote?

Your eyes are closed and you're laying bed...yet you're laughing and talking with someone you knew 20 years ago, as clear as a bell.

Make it make sense...outside of what I just said.

 

 

Of course, we don’t experience those realities. Just this one

I have to point to dreams again as just ONE example of different Realities.

 

 

 

Cynique

Sorry to hear about your knee.
Get better soon and get one of those electric carts to ride around in next time....lol.

That or get a walker with one of those seats on it even if you can walk just so you can keep your balance and rest when you need to.


 

I wonder if in a parallel world I decided not to go grocery shopping, and my knee is fine.
 

In a parallel world you DID go to the store but in that other Reality your argumentative ass is so sweet and gentle that when you stumbled, your 80 year old boy-toy was there to catch you.

Standing with one of his arms around your waist, he asked,

 

 

"Is you alright honey???"


 

 

 

Very Important Question In This Discussion

If everything is already pre-determined  WHO PRE-DETERMINED THEM TO HAPPEN?

Theoretically, there has/had to be an Intelligent Force planning all events.
 

[Delano]

3 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Theoretically, there has/had to be an Intelligent Force planning all events.

Or it could be a being outside of time and space. Humans were created as a project to see what they will do in various situations.

[Troy]

3 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Is "injustice" part of the script?

you were asking the same question 15 billion different ways. The answer is yes to all of it. lol!

 

3 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

WHO PRE-DETERMINED THEM TO HAPPEN?

 

No one, who said they had to be some being behind this? Why is that an assumption, or prequiste?

[Pioneer1]

Delano

 

 

Or it could be a being outside of time and space. Humans were created as a project to see what they will do in various situations.

 

Most people...such as myself....who believe in The SUPREME BEING or Who most call "God", tend to automatically believe that this BEING is beyond time and pace.

 

I won't say "outside" of times and spaces but rather inside AND outside would be more accurate.

 

If I built the house....
I can walk in it, enter any room, and out of it...whenever I like.
And I can do this with MULTIPLE buildings.

 

 

 

Troy

 

No one, who said they had to be some being behind this?

 

Your common sense...lol.

 

Why is that an assumption, or prequiste?

 

Because "Determination"....pre or post...requires thought...intelligence.

[aka Contrarian]

When I was a precocious little girl, once while observing the ant hills thriving in the crevices of the sidewalks around my neighbirhood, I found myself wondering if there are to humans, what humans are to ants...

  So, I went in the house and came back with a teaspoon of sugar and sprinkled it all over the ant hills. And, although  I felt omnipotent,  the ants just scrambled around. 

Now I feel a kinship with ants, although I don't do alot of scrambling at my age, with my sore knee and all. 

[frankster]

On 3/11/2024 at 11:29 PM, Troy said:

 

Think that through for second… 

 

at any rate, what difference does it make? The notion of a choice or free will is an illusion, a function of our being constrained in time.

We Humans are constrained by Time...but an Omniscient Being is outside of time

For this Being you have already made your Choice....Whilst to you - you are still pondering it.

 

 

On 3/11/2024 at 11:29 PM, Troy said:

The omniscient being you are referring to can move through time the way you or I walk up and down the street.

Yes....Fast Forward or Rewind for us.

 

On 3/11/2024 at 11:29 PM, Troy said:

The concept of the passage of time is nonsensical.

Yes...To this Being all that could possible happen has happened already

 

On 3/11/2024 at 11:29 PM, Troy said:

 

They could observe something that “happened” 2000 years ago or 2000 years in the “future” it’s all the same. 

This Being probable Experience's Time akin to how you watch a movie...

 

On 3/11/2024 at 11:29 PM, Troy said:

I bet you have no problem accepting that you can’t change the past, the future is no different.

The Timed constrained being is bound by past decisions.....future decisions are to be made and so remain unbounded.

Once a Decision has been made you are now bounded to its Outcome.....Free Will ends at decision/choice making.

 

On 3/12/2024 at 8:49 PM, Pioneer1 said:

You still didn't answer my questions about why "evil" should be punished if the deed was already pre-determined to occur; and according to that logic...does "evil" really exist?

Evil is its own punishment....Every action has its own reaction - they are bounded together in one continuum

Evil is a Cultural Construct and does not exist outside of Culture/Society....That which is considered evil is not Universal.

 

On 3/12/2024 at 11:30 PM, Troy said:

of course, evil should be discouraged and when excessive punished.

True.

 

On 3/12/2024 at 11:30 PM, Troy said:

As corporeal beings, bound by the constraints of the passage of time we exist in the world with the known and fixed past, and unknown but equally fixed future. We are, necessarily, content with the illusion of free will— otherwise, what meaning with life have?

Yes the past is fixed because both the choice and outcome has been made and experienced....The corporeal being is bound by Time

Time is Illusory and we are Constrained by this Illusion....To those Constrained within/ by the Illusion  -They  See many choices or decision

To the corporeal being the future is unknown and unfixed..because the decision has not been made

 

To the Omniscient Being There is no Time....So it is All happening - Now

To the Omniscient All these decision are One....... All outcome is One

 

The Form the Illusion of Time takes is that of Many where there is only One...Shattering experienced in sequence. - One Focalisation

 

On 3/12/2024 at 11:30 PM, Troy said:

 

If there are multiple past and multiple futures, as some speculate, one can argue they’re all predetermined as well. 

Once you have a past and a future that is a Reality that's based on or in Time.

Every Reality has its own Rules...

 

On 3/12/2024 at 11:30 PM, Troy said:

And much the same way. We are unable to see the predetermined future. We are also unable to experience different realities within the Multiverse.

it all depends on your level of illusion.

 

On 3/14/2024 at 5:20 AM, aka Contrarian said:

So it is debatable that in a set of circumstances having a variety of outcomes, the final result is dependent on which choice your freewill enabled you to make.

Yes...if  i am understanding you right....basic science - A certain set of circumstances usually leads to a Specific outcome...Repeatable.

 

On 3/14/2024 at 5:20 AM, aka Contrarian said:

To me , this raises the question of whether we are dealing with multi-verses instead of a single universe; parallel worlds  that we can,  and do shift between via the decisions we make.

All The Above and more is possible

Yes....Free Will and Know How

Yours it the Decision as to how high you lift the Illusion or what you wish to experience and how.

The Illusion limits your Senses to create or curate a Reality befitting your Knowledge

 

On 3/14/2024 at 5:20 AM, aka Contrarian said:

 If that be the case, what seems to be pre-determined would differ from world to world.

Yes

 

On 3/14/2024 at 5:20 AM, aka Contrarian said:

It's all very mind boggling. And I remain entangled in my mind-set of knowing nothing.

So do I .....but i just love to postulate or am i  pontificating

 

On 3/14/2024 at 5:20 AM, aka Contrarian said:

I stumbled, and fell on my way into a supermarket and busted my knee cap. Now I'm hobbling around, battling the pain. I wonder if in a parallel world I decided not to go grocery shopping, and my knee is fine.

 

At this point you wonder if it all matters....

 

On 3/14/2024 at 9:19 AM, Troy said:

of course, but it is debatable if one can shift between those different realities, or if different versions of you exist and that can never interact.

Yes it's debatable

Consciousness is the Field of Infinite Creativity - Pure Potentiality where All Possibilities Reside

 

On 3/14/2024 at 9:19 AM, Troy said:

Sorry to hear about your. It could be in a different universe we don’t have knees, or we don’t stop at grocery stores. Maybe we don’t even experience pain.

True 

 

On 3/14/2024 at 9:19 AM, Troy said:

Of course, we don’t experience those realities. Just this one, and this one has made better by the presence of the poster formerly known as Cynique

Only because we have chosen(default) to by the illusions we accept or our senses curate for us..

 

On 3/16/2024 at 1:17 PM, aka Contrarian said:

When I was a precocious little girl, once while observing the ant hills thriving in the crevices of the sidewalks around my neighbirhood, I found myself wondering if there are to humans, what humans are to ants...

As Gi-Ants.

 

On 3/16/2024 at 1:17 PM, aka Contrarian said:

 

  So, I went in the house and came back with a teaspoon of sugar and sprinkled it all over the ant hills. And, although  I felt omnipotent,  the ants just scrambled around. 

I guess to them it is a pretty mundane occurrannes....

 

On 3/16/2024 at 1:17 PM, aka Contrarian said:

Now I feel a kinship with ants, although I don't do alot of scrambling at my age, with my sore knee and all. 

As we should...the web of life

[aka Contrarian]

Am I making myself clear when I compare humans and ants? The simile I was trying to make was as a child, I wondered if there  are entities observing and controlling the fate of humans the way humans can look down and affect the fate of ants - an infinite scenario that makes humans both omnipotent and insignificant, depending where they are in the pecking order.

[Pioneer1]

Troy and frankster

I need you two to help me out on something.........

My understanding of evil (based on the religious concept) was that evil involves both behavior AND INTENT.

 

For example.....
If you kill an innocent person by ACCIDENT it's not "evil" however if you kill an innocent person with the INTENT to kill them...it is.
 

So now if all actions are PRE-DETERMINED and it was already part of the script TO kill someone, then the killer is acting BEYOND their will right?

If every action is already PRE-DETERMINED then how can any action actually be "evil" since they are simply just acting out what they were programmed to do?

If this is the case even your "intentions" were programmed and pre-determined in every action.

 

 

So how can "evil" truly exist?

 

 

 

As Gi-Ants.

 

Lol...pretty crafty play on words. 
 

[frankster]

2 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

Am I making myself clear when I compare humans and ants?

Not sure if you are?

 

2 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

The simile I was trying to make was as a child, I wondered if there  are entities observing and controlling the fate of humans the way humans can look down and affect the fate of ants

Yes...On many different levels

 

2 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

- an infinite scenario that makes humans both omnipotent and insignificant, depending where they are in the pecking order.

True 

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Troy and frankster

I need you two to help me out on something.........

My understanding of evil (based on the religious concept) was that evil involves both behavior AND INTENT.

Yes........Religiously Evil is foremost a matter of Disobedience 

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

For example.....
If you kill an innocent person by ACCIDENT it's not "evil" however if you kill an innocent person with the INTENT to kill them...it is.

Biblically they are both Sinful.....

To me Evil involves Intention....to do harm.

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

So now if all actions are PRE-DETERMINED and it was already part of the script TO kill someone, then the killer is acting BEYOND their will right?

Only because all possible actions have already been taken.

All actions are deterministic in that they all have a corresponding reaction....outcome

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

If every action is already PRE-DETERMINED then how can any action actually be "evil" since they are simply just acting out what they were programmed to do?

Before you take action nothing is predetermined....Once you take action the result is determinable and no longer under your control

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

If this is the case even your "intentions" were programmed and pre-determined in every action.

Your intentions are influenced and programmed

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

So how can "evil" truly exist?

Evil is a Social Construct.....it is real only in societies

Symbiotic relationships are considered a type of social cohabitation in and among species of fauna and flora in a biome...in effect a Culture or Society of sorts

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

As Gi-Ants.

 

Lol...pretty crafty play on words. 
 

Thanks

[Pioneer1]

frankster

Yes........Religiously Evil is foremost a matter of Disobedience 
 

If that's the case....and for the most part I agree...then how can those who believe in "pre-determination" believe that "evil" exists?
It can't exist in a world where everything was pre-determined to happen and the individual had no control over their actions.

According to the pre-determinists.....

They didn't "disobey".
They DID obey
They obeyed what they were programmed to do already.

I don't believe everything is "predetermined" and I don't think you do either.
Those in this thread who DO believe in it should be trying to explain these things....lol

[Troy]

These things were explained @Pioneer1, perhaps not to your satisfaction. The reason you are having difficulty understanding is you keep shoehorning ideas that have no relevance like “evil” and “obeying.” 
 

if you touch something that is unexpectedly very hot, your hand will recoil. It’s not a decision that you made, it’s not good or evil, you weren’t obeying anyone, you just reacted.  Now you could create a story in which you touched the hot thing, and made a decision, in a fraction of a millisecond, to remove your hand to prevent yourself from being hurt. But you and I both know that is a false narrative.
 

I appreciate that was a trivial example, however it is should not be difficult to see how that situation could be extended to the universe. It’s not an idea you have to believe in, but it is one that you can ponder.

[Pioneer1]

Troy

 

These things were explained @Pioneer1, perhaps not to your satisfaction. The reason you are having difficulty understanding is you keep shoehorning ideas that have no relevance like “evil” and “obeying.” 
 

The reasons I'm having difficulty understanding is either due to one of two things:

1. My comprehension skills
 

or

2. Your so-called "explanation" was faulty.

....and although I'm no PhD..I've never had a special education nor an academic problem, lol.

 

 

 

 

 

if you touch something that is unexpectedly very hot, your hand will recoil. It’s not a decision that you made, it’s not good or evil, you weren’t obeying anyone, you just reacted. 

The decision to recoil wasn't necessarily yours but the decision to touch it (which falls under "everything" by the way) WAS your decision.
Do you disagree?

[frankster]

On 3/23/2024 at 7:18 AM, Pioneer1 said:

frankster

Yes........Religiously Evil is foremost a matter of Disobedience 
 

If that's the case....and for the most part I agree...then how can those who believe in "pre-determination" believe that "evil" exists?

You are conflating differing Existences and their respective Rules.

Evil is a Social Construct having to do with societies while Pre-Determination relates to the Nature of Existence....as to whether you exist in a Time bounded Reality or not.

 

On 3/23/2024 at 7:18 AM, Pioneer1 said:

It can't exist in a world where everything was pre-determined to happen and the individual had no control over their actions.

Evil Exist in a Socio-Cultural Construct...Our Societies are bounded by Time.

To an Omniscient Being unbounded by Time....All possible decisions and their respective outcomes are One - And is happening Now 

 

On 3/23/2024 at 7:18 AM, Pioneer1 said:

According to the pre-determinists.....

They didn't "disobey".
They DID obey
They obeyed what they were programmed to do already.

They did and they didn't.

 

On 3/23/2024 at 7:18 AM, Pioneer1 said:

I don't believe everything is "predetermined" and I don't think you do either.

Consciousness Curates Realities to Experience More

This is a matter of reconciling the Science and Spirituality I understand.....not belief.

 

On 3/23/2024 at 7:18 AM, Pioneer1 said:

Those in this thread who DO believe in it should be trying to explain these things....lol

fair enuff.