Have you ever heard of Miss Black America?

[aka Contrarian]

10 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Biology.

Black men tend to dominate in the physical features that make men attractive to heterosexual women.
 

Source: Studies? Research paper? Peer review?

 

 

58 minutes ago, Troy said:

@aka Contrarian 

...1963 CBS TV series, East Side, West Side James Earl Jones was 31 or 32 in this scene and looks so young -- I guess I'm only used to seeing the barrel chested gray-breaded man.  I have not watched it long enough to see Cicely yet

@TroyI know you don't like to use it, but if you Google East Side, West Side, some pics with Cicely in it come up.

 

 

 

[Troy]

1 minute ago, aka Contrarian said:

I know you don't like to use it, but if you Google East Side, West Side, some pics with Cicely in it come up.

 

 Oh I intend to watch the series, so I'll see Cicely soon enough.

 

As far as Google search, no I don't care for how you run their search engine.  I only use it now to see how I rank on certain search terms.  But I've probably put in at least 100 hours with Google's Gemni AI product over that past two weeks.  Eventually Gemini will be used against people that may likely be the beginning of the web of the web as we know it--for the worse.

[Pioneer1]

14 minutes ago, aka Contrarian said:

Source: Studies? Research paper? Peer review?

 

Lol....

You want me to dig up scientific text and research on an easy Sunday morning just to convince you of something you probably already know; that Black men tend to be more physically attractive?
 

Your life experiences and observations aren't enough to draw that conclusion?
 

The fact that White men have historically been insecure over Black male sexuality isn't enough for you to draw that conclusion?

I could dig it up in 15 minutes, but like Troy on the race issue.....no matter how much information I provide it won't change your position of opposing mine.
You'd either ignore it or poke holes in it and maintain your position -which is opposing mine, lol.
 

[aka Contrarian]

@Pioneer1My environment has always been integrated. I attended school and college with, worked beside, lived next door to white people. And, of course, I've always been around black men. And I never found the men in one group any more completely appealing than the other. There were ones I found attractive in each group and ones I found unattractive in each group;all seemed equally horny. (I don't know about penis size.)

"Italian stallions" were "something else". Cool, aloof Nordic types very intriguing. Black dudes? Comfortable to be around.

What made a difference, of course, was that I didn't socialize with white people. All my interactions were with my own kind. And there were plenty of rejects among them. 

As for my husband, he chose me. And because he we were very compatible, we ended up married.

Oddly enough, it was only after we wed, when other women would tell me I had a handsome husband, did I look closer at him and think, humm he is kinda fine. This probably had to do with him aging well, because we were 23 when we tied the knot.

Among my black female friends, we never went around raving about black guys being top of the line.We just stuck with who we were around. Interracial coupling wasn't pursued.

It amazes me how you tout black men as being so superior over other men, so much more appealing to women, white ones in particular, based solely on what? You seem convinced that all white woman are turned on by all black men. How do you know this? You never consider how traits other than physical ones can be aphrodisiacal to all women

I simply think that fine, sexy, personable, brilliant individuals are found in all ethnicities. 

 

A few years after my husband passed, out of curiosity and encouraged by my kids, I tried dating this one black man - who never picked me up and took me grocery shopping!   

No chemistry.  

End of story.

[Pioneer1]

2 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

@Pioneer1My environment has always been integrated. I attended school and college with, worked beside, lived next door to white people. And, of course, I've always been around black men. And I never found the men in one group any more completely appealing than the other. There were ones I found attractive in each group and ones I found unattractive in each group;all seemed equally horny. (I don't know about penis size.)

"Italian stallions" were "something else". Cool, aloof Nordic types very intriguing. Black dudes? Comfortable to be around.

 

You claim to disavow racial stereotypes....but then you engage in them by promoting the idea of the "Italian Stallion"
This is what I'm talking about......

Black male sexual superiority is questioned and in many cases downplayed and dismissed....especially by other Black people ironically.
But the idea of a "Latin Lover" or an "Italian Stallion" is a welcomed stereotype that society not only promotes but embraces.

When the idea that Latino men or Italian men make great lovers or are sensual is presented, where is the push back and accusations of stereotyping????

I guess it's only a stereotype when it's something that benefits US.
But if it benefits the image of White men, it's renowned.


BTW....
Italian men are promoted as sensual and sexual in the WHITE community because subconsciously the White community is fully aware of their distant Black ancestry.

An Italian man is about as close as a White woman can get to having a "Black stud" for a lover while he's still classified as White.

 

[aka Contrarian]

@Pioneer1French men get a lot of props, too.  It's all about bragging rights, with every group claiming the crown for their team. Nobody takes it to the extent that you do, however, by going so far as to declaring that it's biological. And, btw, Strawman, I never "disavowed stereotypes".  My complaint about you is your all-encompassing claim when it comes to assigning superior traits to all black men.

 

And, as in any ethnicity, not all the Italian guys who I went to high school with were "stallions". Many were just average. 

The town next to where I grew up was heavily populated with Italian immigrants and their second generation children, some of whom ended up becoming members of the Chicago mob.

At my 50-year class reunion there was a table of them. Tough lookin' dudes, exuding power with their beautiful blond wives.Whatever.

In any case, you seem obsessed, and are apparently on a mission to elevate black manhood in the same manner Hitler did with the Aryans and his Master Race theories. That's the problem I have with your stance.

You'd save yourself a lot of frustration if you'd just deal with the reality of the human race being made up of breeds who are more alike than different, and that they all have their super studs.

Don't you ever get tired of beating the drum for a cause that doesn't live up to your hype? Find a new pastime. Bowling is a lot of fun. Even if "Afro-Americans" aren't the only ones good at it. 

[richardmurray]

@aka Contrarian 

good point, mister universe is a beauty pageant, it isn't considered a beauty pageant for the connotative definition of beauty in the usa, which suggest beauty is homosexuality or femininity, not masculinity. But beauty is agender, And a pageant is merely an artful production, a page as in page of a book. 

So literally, by literal definition,  mister universe is as much a beauty pageant as miss america. It is only the poor use of language in the usa that suggests otherwise.

 

@ProfD + @Pioneer1 

Good dialog between you two.

You both make excellent points. 

Profd I think Pioneer point has value in that it alludes to black people with money, the black one percent, have financially assessed the market and didn't arrive with a positive result. I have witnessed offline first hand various black one percenters say they wouldn't do a certain fiscal enterprise because they didn't see it as financially feasible. Do I think with two black female beauty pageants in the usa , both at least over three decades old, a black male pageant in the usa can't work? no.  But I do think it needs to be sold a certain way. And of course, the prizes matter. As a white person said on a documentary about miss america i recall from years back, I paraphrase, many people in the womens movement hated miss america but miss america sent many women to college. Maybe instead of college an investment opportunity. I know the percentage of black owned investment firms has risen sharply in recent years so this can be a  way of helping both. 

Pioneer, I think Profd point has value in that it alludes to black people with money , the black one percent, not wanting to take financial risks at  certain level. I think many black people with money like investing where whites invest first with the idea that the whites safety net they can climb onto as well. Lebron James owns a part of liverpool that has returned a lot of money, this is because of Liverpool, the futebol club's fiscal scenario , it earns a lot of money as part of the collective bargaining with other teams in its league, it is in europe so the financial legal system is straight forward and not muddled like in the usa, thanks to Franklin deleanor roosevelt. But, Lebron has the money to own a wnba team or similar and isn't doing that because to be a majority owner means to risk your money. Many whites who own big sports teams, actually have debt lines they use. Most blacks with money don't have the same debt lines so it is a more potent risk. McCourt bought LA dodgers with debt money but sold it to an investment firm for a huge sum so he can pay back debt and have double or triple what he paid. But you need to be blunt, friends in the banking sector for that plan. Most black people with money don't have that. 

 

IN AMENDMENT

in modern media entertainment  most buyers are looking to sell. Sports teams/golf courses/ beauty pageants the idea is, you buy it now and it gains in media popularity and then you sell it later. with sports teams this works very well. The glazers bought Manchester United football club for circa a billion dollars usa in two thousand and five, now that club is speculated/viewed as worth on the market [honestly or dishonestly, rightly or wrongly] six billion and six hundred million dollars. so that is a six hundred percent increase in value in a twenty year period, a generation. WHich means thirty percent increase in value per year. Can a black male beauty pageant with no media legacy or heritage in an environment with gender definition problems get a thirty percent increase in speculative value per year? yes, is the simple answer, because all things are possible. But the honest answer is, who knows. How will men accept this contest? how will women? what if a cultural movement comes along that stymies the idea? Alot of questions exist that hinder financially safe investors touching it. 

Thinking on this I argue, it might be financially wiser to add a boyfriend of miss black america or miss black usa element to those pageants, where the boyfriends of contestants have a small contest. The female contestants wouldn't have to have a bofriend to enter miss black america or miss black usa as they never needed it before, but for those that do, a miniature contest can happen. the winner of the boyfriend of miss black america or miss black usa earns with their partner a business investment opportunity with a black owned financial investment firm, where they are given money and the investment firm puts up equal value.  

 

[Pioneer1]

On 1/25/2026 at 11:59 PM, aka Contrarian said:

 

At my 50-year class reunion there was a table of them. Tough lookin' dudes, exuding power with their beautiful blond wives.Whatever.

 

I don't think you or many people realize how they sound when they say things like this.
It's a window to the subconscious of how so many of our people think.

Calling Italian men "stallions" as if they are the epitome of masculinity.
And calling blonde White women "beautiful" as if THEY are the epitome of femininity and beauty.

Most Italian men....especially over 30...tend to be short, fat, and hairy.
Most blonde White women tend to have the same physical features that other White women have except for maybe a larger percentage of them have blue or green eyes.

But these are stereotypes that are pushed in society.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Many of our people have these images and beliefs etched in their minds whether they express them or not and it plays out in their behavior and social interactions with eachother.

There is no doubt that AfroAmerican male and female relationships are often strained in this society because subconsciously many of our people don't like themselves or eachother and are only together RELUCTANTLY.

She'd rather be with an "Italian stallion" than be with that dark skinned kinky haired brutha she's hanging out with.
He'd rather be with a "beautiful blonde" than married to that dark skinned sista with the kitchen naps he sees laying over on the couch.
People TOLERATING eachother but secretly desiring to be with people they THINK are more attractive/desirable.


 

[ProfD]

12 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

There is no doubt that AfroAmerican male and female relationships are often strained in this society because subconsciously many of our people don't like themselves or eachother and are only together RELUCTANTLY.

Thankfully, such is not the case where I was born & raised & where I live now.

 

I see whole lotta FBA/AfroAmerican folks are happy as clams together; living the *dream* as homeowners with multiple vehicles in the driveway & raising children & the whole 9 yards.

 

Of course, the women can afford to get their kinks & naps under wraps.  Dudes can get dye their head & facial hair too.

 

Purposefully, I have always bought my houses & lived in predominantly FBA/AfroAmerican communities my entire life.   

 

Just so that I can wake up everyday & see my people at our best.

 

During this past snowstorm, folks come out with their snowblowers & shovels helping each other.

 

Many FBA/AfroAmericans are self-loving & getting along just fine.

 

[Pioneer1]

27 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Thankfully, such is not the case where I was born & raised & where I live now.

 

I see whole lotta FBA/AfroAmerican folks are happy as clams together; living the *dream* as homeowners with multiple vehicles in the driveway & raising children & the whole 9 years.

 

 

Well, if it's like THAT where you live then uhhhh, brace yourself because I'm....

 

[aka Contrarian]

On 1/29/2026 at 3:30 AM, Pioneer1 said:

I don't think you or many people realize how they sound when they say things like this.
It's a window to the subconscious of how so many of our people think.

Calling Italian men "stallions" as if they are the epitome of masculinity.
And calling blonde White women "beautiful" as if THEY are the epitome of femininity and beauty.

Most Italian men....especially over 30...tend to be short, fat, and hairy.
Most blonde White women tend to have the same physical features that other White women hav except for maybe a larger percentage of them have blue or green eyes.

But these are stereotypes that are pushed in society.

@Pioneer1 So, when it comes to appearance, "beautiful" and "stallion" are forbidden words unless you're speaking of "Afro-Americans", huh?

I don't believe you realize how ridiculous you sound, or how much you come across as being afflicted with a one-track mind, hampered by tunnel vision and gripped by an over active imagination that casts yourself as the "HNIC" chosen to tell his people "what they see when they look". Puleeze.

You are who deals in stereotypes because you imply that Blacks are too dumb to process the idea that beauty comes in many varieties that can, and do co-exist!

[Pioneer1]

13 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

@Pioneer1 So, when it comes to appearance, "beautiful" and "stallion" are forbidden words unless you're speaking of "Afro-Americans", huh?

I don't believe you realize how ridiculous you sound, or how much you come across as being afflicted with a one-track mind, hampered by tunnel vision and gripped by an over active imagination that casts yourself as the "HNIC" chosen to tell his people "what they see when they look". Puleeze.

You are who deals in stereotypes because you imply that Blacks are too dumb to process the idea that beauty comes in many varieties that can, and do co-exist!

Again.......

It seems as if you actively deny the stereotypes that portray Black men in a good light.
Like having a big penis or being good sexually or being very masculine.
You readily point out that these traits can be found in men of all ethnic groups.

Yet when it comes to White people  you have no problem showering THEM with positive stereotypical attributes like assuming Italian men are "stallions" and the blond White women exemplify "beauty".

 

[aka Contrarian]

3 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Yet when it comes to White people  you have no problem showering THEM with positive stereotypical attributes like assuming Italian men are "stallions" and the blond White women exemplify "beauty".

 

l've never been guilty of  assuming all Italian men are stallions, or all white women are the exemplificaton of blond beauty except in your usual STRAWMAN response replete with your favorite  "it seems" preface wherein the only person "it seems" that way to, is you.

The reference to my 50-year class reunion was to imply that the Italian mobsters were able to acquire  eye candy because their "power" was an aphrodisiac. The stallion and blond beauty stereotypes are your spin.

 

My position has always been that great beauty and extraordinary masculinity are universal traits and are assets that grace individuals in every species of the human race.( So when you insist on characterizing ALL black males as the only supermen, then I am dubious. 

 

OTOH,  nobody negatively portrays black people any more than you do as evidenced by your little scenarios about them which ProfD had to dispute because what you described didn't apply to the FBAs he associates with.

[Pioneer1]

aka Contrarian

 

2 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

l've never been guilty of  assuming all Italian men are stallions, or all white women are the exemplificaton of blond beauty

Few people DO support stereotypes 100%.
But the fact that you attached THOSE attributes to them gives us a window to your thinking about them.

 

2 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

The reference to my 50-year class reunion was to imply that the Italian mobsters were able to acquire  eye candy because their "power" was an aphrodisiac.

Here again......
Instead of calling them criminals, you focus on their power and call it sexy.

Would you consider BLACK gang members sexy and talk about how much of an aphrodisiac the leaders of the VL or GD in Chicago exude when they call shots?
Or is that only reserved for White "gangsters" with power?

 

 

2 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

So when you insist on characterizing ALL black males as the only supermen, then I am dubious.

And WHEN I do so.....please share the quote of me doing or saying this.
Because so far, I haven't.


 

2 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

OTOH,  nobody negatively portrays black people any more than you do as evidenced by your little scenarios about them which ProfD had to dispute because what you described didn't apply to the FBAs he associates with.

Ofcourse not.
Lol....how many FBAs reside in WAKANDA???

 

 

[aka Contrarian]

@Pioneer1In response to your question as to whether I include black gang members  in the "power-as-an-aphrodisiac" dynamic, the answer is yes. 

 

But your misinterpretations of what I say, and the accusations that they lead you to make, do not command my further response. I don't feel I have to continue defending myself from your version of the narrative you're attempting to control.

Believe whatever you want to believe when it comes to black males vs white ones. It really makes me no difference.  

[Pioneer1]

25 minutes ago, aka Contrarian said:

@Pioneer1In response to your question as to whether I include black gang members  in the "power-as-an-aphrodisiac" dynamic, the answer is yes. 

 

But your misinterpretations of what I say, and the accusations that they lead you to make, do not command my further response. I don't feel I have to continue defending myself from your version of the narrative you're attempting to control.

Believe whatever you want to believe when it comes to black males vs white ones. It really makes me no difference.  

I'm sure it doesn't make a difference to you.
It has become increasingly clear that as a group: you have a much higher regard for White males than for Black males

While you're right that beauty and other positive traits can be found among all racial groups; because of your position...you enhance and promote the positive traits of White males and disregard their negative ones, while doing the opposite for Black males.
 

[aka Contrarian]

@Pioneer1The only person your accusations have become increasingly clear to, is you and your skewed point of view. You are  lying when you say I praise and elevate white men and down grade black men. Distortion has always been your weapon of choice; false narratives  are your MO.

 

I don't put black men down. Nor do I elevate white men. Show me where I've done so.

I give credit where credit is due and this is something you have a problem with because your are consumed with jealousy, envy and insecurity.

You are the only regular black male contributor on this forum who I would say that about because the rest of the guys here are able to keep things in perspective and are confident enough to not feel threatened by competition.

 

Incidentally, I was happily married to a black man for 50 years.

 

[aka Contrarian]

Pause while  Pioneer digs up the pictures of Robert Redford  and Andy Samberg I originally posted because they are 2 celebrities whom I share an Augusut 18th birthdate with. Admittedly,  I couldn't resist needling pioneer with their pictures because he was going overboard putting down Serena Williams' white husband. 

He couldn't cite anyone better than a 70 year old, over-the-hill Denzel Washington in response but I helped him out by  calling attention to black hunks Michael B. Jordan and Tyrese Gibson and Morris Chesnut.

...back to our regularly scheduled programming.

[Pioneer1]

46 minutes ago, aka Contrarian said:

 

I don't put black men down. Nor do I elevate white men. Show me where I've done so.

 

 

 

On 1/25/2026 at 5:52 PM, aka Contrarian said:

"Italian stallions" were "something else". Cool, aloof Nordic types very intriguing. Black dudes? Comfortable to be around.

 

[aka Contrarian]

Obviously, I preferred men who I was comfortable to be around since I stayed married to a black husband of 50 years.

[Pioneer1]

21 minutes ago, aka Contrarian said:

Obviously, I preferred men who I was comfortable to be around since I stayed married to a black husband of 50 years.

Who a person "prefers" and who a person sees as superior are often 2 different things.

I know women who prefer to be with abusive unemployed men whom they claim "ain't shit" over educated men with good jobs because of how it makes THEM feel.  But they still believe those men that they don't prefer ARE actually better than who they're with.
 

[aka Contrarian]

Well. you dont know me, so move on. As I said, I dont care what you think, nor do I feel the need to defend my position.

You are totally preoccupied with and filled with resentment toward white men. That's your problem. Not, mine. So continue sulking. 

[Pioneer1]

 

aka Contradiction

 

3 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

you have a problem with because your are consumed with jealousy, envy and insecurity.

This is what you call "projecting".
These are things that White women say (or used to say) about WHITE MEN back during the women's movement.

In an attempt to be like your White female friends, you want to take those same negative attributes and attach them to a BLACK MAN.
....while hyping up the sexuality and masculinity of White men.

 

2 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

Well. you dont know me

I know you like to drink whiskey, smoke cheap ass Salem cigarettes,  go bar hopping and making a fool of yourself on stage.
I know THAT much about you....lol

[aka Contrarian]

You don't know my forum facade from my real one. Anything that doesn't comply with how you think people should behave is considered "acting a fool" because you live in your own little world where you type cast people thereby making it easier for you to do your strawman /false equivalency voodoo. I haven't had a white female friend in 35 years.

Your opinion of me amounts to zilch in my accounting. Suffice to say, I consider you the epitome of why anybody would reject black manhood. 

[Pioneer1]

34 minutes ago, aka Contrarian said:

Anything that doesn't comply with how you think people should behave is considered "acting a fool" because

Was it me who said it.....
Or did YOU say you used to get drunk and get on stage trying to sing and embarrassed yourself and others back during your "salad tossing" days????

[aka Contrarian]

@Pioneer1Nope, that's you doing what you do best, which is besmirching and distorting in order to put your spin on things. Truth, facts and authenticity are an anathema to a devious, deceitful person like you.

That's why your sorry-assed  campaign to celebrate the black male falls flat. 

But carry on since you have nothing better to do. 

It is a good thing, however, that there are so many much better representatives out there to exemplify the cause.

 

[Pioneer1]

12 minutes ago, aka Contrarian said:

 

It is a good thing, however, that there are so many much better representatives out there to exemplify the cause.

 

So why didn't you mention THEM as an "aphrodisiac"???
Why did you dwell on Italian men and Nordic blonde men???

When it came to White men, you give their various regional and ethnic differences respect:  Italian, Nordic.
When it came to Black men, you lumped us all together:  Random Black guys

When it came to White men you described one as "something else" and "powerful" and the other as "interesting".
When it came to Black men guys (you don't give them the respect of calling them men) they were simply "comfortable to be around".......like a family pet.
 

[aka Contrarian]

So why do you change the subject when the truth about yourself is revealed? Huh?

 

Unlike you, I'm not on a mission to extol black manhood and have no intention of submitting to your repetitive cross-examination! Too bad if you are offended by my  cliches.

 

Cheer up. Maybe your fondest dream will be realized and you will be transformed into an intriguing black stallion who a rich black female athlete will take a shine to. Woo-Woo!

 

 

[Pioneer1]

aka Contradiction

 

35 minutes ago, aka Contrarian said:

So why do you change the subject when the truth about yourself is revealed? Huh?

Actually, the "subject" of this thread was about Miss Black America.
But you couldn't stick to that, I guess.
 

 

36 minutes ago, aka Contrarian said:

Maybe your fondest dream will be realized and you will be transformed into an intriguing black stallion who a rich black female athlete will take a shine to.

It appears that some of these rich Black female athletes aren't interested in anything Black....not even their own hair.

 

[aka Contrarian]

15 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

aka Contradiction

 

Actually, the "subject" of this thread was about Miss Black America.
But you couldn't stick to that, I guess.
 

 

It appears that some of these rich Black female athletes aren't interested in anything Black....not even their own hair.

@Pioneer1You guess wrong. YOU were who informed richardmurray that you were changing the direction of this post, and promptly proceeded to shove your self-styled rules about blackness down our throats, later throwing a hissy fit because the way I chose to categorize certain men didn't meet with your approval.

 

And black female athletes are no different from all the black male athletes who choose white mates. Your "testosterone heroes" don’t give a damn about your campaign to instill black consciousness.

 

So, you are doomed to a life of beating the drum for a cause that disintegrates in the face of reality.

Millions of black Americans make their own decisions when it comes their personal lives. You are irrelevant. 

Go somewhere and play with yourself. 

[Troy]

On 1/25/2026 at 11:59 PM, aka Contrarian said:

You'd save yourself a lot of frustration if you'd just deal with the reality of the human race being made up of breeds who are more alike than different, and that they all have their super studs.

 

The poor guy is in capable of doing this...

 

BTW I @aka Contrarian I watched that episode of the CBS TV series, East Side, West Side last night. I thought it was excellent. It had the feel of movie not an episode of a TV series. Again, I never heard of this series.

 

The real star of this episode was the sister (I acknowledge @Pioneer1 would not consider her Black, but she is a Soul Sister to me) in the foreground in the image below, Diana Sands.  I never herd of her either but, she was foine and put on a great performance.   I learned died at only 39 years of age.

 

 

 

 

 

[aka Contrarian]

@Troyyes, I remember Diana Sands quite well

She first gained fame by playing Sidney Poitier's sister in "Raisin in the Sun," which was based on the play by Lorraine Hansberry. Lorraine and Diana were friends, and both tragically died in their 30s, victims of cancer.

 

[Pioneer1]

Troy and Cynique

Well.....
Since both of you have your minds made up about what you THINK I believe or represent....regardless as to what I actually say/type....why waste time with explanations, evidence, and proof of my assertions?

I'm going to let you two have eachother.....lol.

 

[aka Contrarian]

 

 

On 2/3/2026 at 2:42 PM, Pioneer1 said:

Troy and Cynique

Well.....
Since both of you have your minds made up about what you THINK I believe or represent....regardless as to what I actually say/type....why waste time with explanations, evidence, and proof of my assertions?

I'm going to let you two have eachother.....lol.

 

@Pioneer1I suggested we "move on" earlier in this thread but you couldn't pass up a chance to try and control the narrative by giving your typically revised and unflattering version of me to "prove" that you did, indeed, know me. Even called Salems "cheap" when in fact, they were a name brand cigarette that cost the same as other cigarettes back in the "salad days" of my youth, a classic metaphor which you insisted on botching by referring to as my salad making days, subsequently turning my "frequenting intimate little jazz clubs" to "bar hopping", my joining musicians I was acquainted with on stage, as "making a fool of myself" but, now all of a sudden, you are going to "let" ,Troy and me have each other because we don't see things your way, and all your cherry-picking, strawman ploys and false equivalencies - oops, I mean "explanations, evidence and truth" have been rejected. Yeah, right.

And, to return the favor, I'm going to let you and yourself have each other, - as befits an egocentric die-hard. 

[Troy]

23 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

She first gained fame by playing Sidney Poitier's sister in "Raisin in the Sun," which was based on the play by Lorraine Hansberry.

Oh yes, I remember that character! If I ever knew her name, I’d forgotten it. Makes me wanna go back and rewatch that film.

 

 

 

 

[Chevdove]

 

 

On 1/16/2026 at 5:00 PM, richardmurray said:

 

So... your correct, Contrarian, but the issue of this post is uplifting the black beauty pageant and it is unfortunate how little uplifting was achieved. It says something about black discourse online, we are too concerned with arguments online.

 

Well said! @richardmurray

 

Within this context, I think @Pioneer1 may have brought in some confusion and issues that was not intended for this thread!!! This thread was to highlight the advancement of Black women in these pageants. But although I did NOT read any of his post yet, I do plan to though, go back and read his post, because I recognized from other comments the contention that was presented and I do understand why @Pioneer1 would interject some of these contentions, but I know it is frustrating though. 

 

However, before I go back and read through this thread, I have been wanting to piggyback though, on the Black beauty pageants and share some other comments and stories that I do believe bridge the past pageants that are for all women and connect to the Black beauty pageants. It was not until this thread that I went back and looked at some recent historical aspects of the 'Black' pageants that I realized to my surprise[!] that one of the Black pageant organization did not even come about until 1987!!!

 

 

1987!?

You gotta be kidding!

 

I think it was the Miss Black USA pageant that did not even start until 1987 and what shocked me is that, I was in one of those early pageants and never knew it was that brand new! OMG! 

 

Well now, the reason why I am BLOWN AWAY about this news is because I had always believed that I was drawn into these pageants and given a lot of support from non-Black people to go into this foray is due to the lovely Miss Vanessa Williams! I believe that she is 'the door opener' for all of us Black women to be put in the spotlight in this manner, no matter what kind of pageant we took part in. So when I realized that the Miss Black USA did not start until 1987, well I believe it is because of her who was the first African American woman to win the Miss America pageant in 1983; September 17, 1983 and she became Miss America 1984.

 

I remember that was when I was in college and I watched the whole pageant and was not really interested until at the end when it was announced in the newspapers the next morning, that Vanessa Williams was African America!!!

 

I was like-- What!?' LOL.

But after leaning that, well, I was so excited and happy and thrilled! She was so pretty and she still is just as beautiful today!

So the fact that she was so light skinned that I did not even know she was 'Black' kind of ties into the contention here, in this thread, but nevertheless, just like @Cyniquesaid, Vanessa is Black! The girl is Black. And she is also a Trailblazer!

 

As far as some of the contention, here in America with the issue of Colorism, I understand, but so many of these Black or AfroAmerican women or whatever, have went through a lot of racist attacks after they won. So then, I believe that it was because of Vanessa Williams, that probably led to the Miss USA pageant coming on board! 

Initially, I was sought out to be a contestant in the Miss America Pageant that next year--not the Black Miss America--but the regular pageant after Vanessa had won, and I believe that it may have been because I was going to an HBCU. The organizers of that pageant pressed me diligently to be in their pageant but at first, I was like, no way! After Vanessa was thrown down so badly and attacked, I was like, totally uninterested. But they kept asking me to be in their pageant, so I did. I did not win, of course, but, the organizers were so nice and supportive. Beautiful people. There were two other Black girls that had been in that pageant several times, year after year, and they were so incredibly beautiful, I was like, why in the world do yall need me!? But without further adieu, I want to share some historical news about Vanessa Williams from past to present. 

 

Recently, she was featured in an online social media talk show where she shared some news about what she went through after she won Miss America pageant. 

She has been married three times and she has four (4) children that are now adults. Her first husband was Raymond Hervey II and with him they had three (3) children. The second husband Rick Fox she married and they had a daughter. Then her third husband was Jim Skrip and in 2021, they divorced and kept it hidden for four years. She because well known for other endeavors and nominated fro Grammy's as well. Now in some of these brief video clips, she drops some hard news about how she was given death threats for winning the Miss America pageant! Crazy!

 

Vanessa Williams Then:

 

 

 

 

Vanessa Williams Now:  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unfiltered: Vanessa proudly shared an unfiltered photo of herself on Instagram July 8.

At the July 24 premiere for The Cottage on Broadway, the actress revealed she had recently

undergone a Forma skin tightening procedure 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-12361307/Vanessa-Williams-60-admits-Botox-radiofrequency-procedures-not-fillers-doesnt-want-look-like-somebody-else.html

 

 

 

 

Miss America 1984 Crowning Moment  

 

 

 

 

Singer, actress, producer and dancer, Vanessa Williams.

She was the first African-American woman to receive the

Miss America title when she was crowned Miss America 1984.Her parents

Milton Augustine Williams Jr and Helene Williams and brother Chris.

[Chevdove]

On 1/24/2026 at 10:18 PM, richardmurray said:

Well, I don't oppose beauty pageants or support beauty pageants. My only desire is if beauty pageants exist, black owned ones exist. And black owned beauty pageants do exist so I am content. I have no concern to beauty pageants as a warranted or unwarranted thing. I am only concerned with black people owning beauty pageants if they are present, or a black person being able to own a beauty pageant if none other are present. 

 

Yes, I absolutely agree in that beauty contest, whether they are called pageants or something else, that they are not going to end.

Therefore it is a good endeavor to sponsor pageants and support and cheer for Black female beauty contest that are Black owned. 

Unfortunately, there will be modern day David's that fight over a 'Bathsheba', or a young female dancer that might  please men like Herod and then use their attractiveness to ask for the head of John-the-Baptist; there will be belly dancer's in restaurants where Middle Eastern men go to dine, and there will be beauty contest in a world with males whereby females dress up in nice clothes, and dance or sing or do some type of entertainment to attract male attention for their beauty. 

 

As far as little girls in pageants where they are paraded like the big girls, well, that needs to stop, perhaps set guidelines that separate little girls so that they won't be paraded for sex. Little girls should be able to compete on certain talents though, but not for sex.

 

As far as pageants for males, well, that seems to go against the natural order of life, but Hey, in the western world, anything goes, even enslaving millions of little children for sex and/or forcing them to work in factories, etc. etc. etc. 

 

[Pioneer1]

Chev

 

 

Within this context, I think @Pioneer1 may have brought in some confusion and issues that was not intended for this thread!!! This thread was to highlight the advancement of Black women in these pageants. But although I did NOT read any of his post yet, I do plan to though, go back and read his post, because I recognized from other comments the contention that was presented and I do understand why @Pioneer1 would interject some of these contentions, but I know it is frustrating though. 

 

If confusion was brought in, that wasn't my intention.
However our brother richarmurray may have to learn not to be so dictatorial as to demand that everybody march lock-n-step with HIS train of thought in every thread he produces.

Thought...like speech...flows.
When you start putting narrow limits and boundaries on it, you're intending to stifle creativity.

Maybe my mistake was apologizing in advance...lol.
Maybe I should have said what I had to say and he wouldn't have been offended by it.

Anyway, as for what I said......

I simply stated that when we talk about Black beauty pageants, we need to make sure that the contestants are actually BLACK.
Not mixed or damn near White like a lot of women are who are held up as representations of "Black beauty".

 

Vanessa Williams....whom you just brought up...is a GREAT example.

She's clearly mixed race and in my opinion is more White than Black.

If you want to call her "Miss America"....because any particular race isn't specified for THAT pageant.
But it would be crazy as hell to call a woman who looks as White as she does "Miss Black America".
It would be an insult to the Black race in general and Black women in specific for a seeming "white" woman to steal the glory and win the prize over very beautiful brown skinned and dark skinned women.

No other group would allow that.

 

There are many Black Latinas, but when they choose a "Miss Latina" they aren't going to choose one.
They choose women who look like the MAJORITY of their women.....brown with straight hair.

 

[Chevdove]

On 1/25/2026 at 8:29 AM, Pioneer1 said:

 

Women...not just American women but women all over the globe...consistently see men of African descent as the most physically attractive and masculine regardless of the propaganda and conditioning.

 

 

haha sh8t. 

Stop @Pioneer1

[richardmurray]

@Chevdove 

any photos of you in the bikini contest?:) haha

Thanks for sharing some of your experiences with the topic. 

Vanessa Williams is also a harlemite of new york city, her father was a dentist if I am correct. 

and yes, anything that exist, if black people want to control have to own their own. HAving something black own doesn't mean black people are forced to use it, but it means black people have an option that is black owned and has different rules. 

 

@Pioneer1 

I see:) i am dictatorial in my style, I stifle imagination with the structure of my posts ok

I your commentary did not attack or offend the post. Talking about who contest beauty pageants is within the topic of beauty pageants. 

My point is that these two black owned beauty pageants have emphasized women who can not be deemed yella/white/mulatto while not excluding the range of all black women which are all shades of brown.  And since they both exists in the usa, which is a white european country, I think they are fine examples of black ownership that is honest to the larger situation of black people. 

My offense to your point, is that your talking about black media pundits, not the black owned beauty pageants. Said pundits are mostly male, who are on white owned media outlets usually, with their most beautiful black woman is the yellaist black woman narrative... I don't connect black male pundits in white owned media  to black owned beauty pageants. It isn't that your wrong in assessing media pundits, but said pundits don't have any connection  to the activities of the black beauty pageants. What matters is that the black owned beauty pageants in the usa exist which emphasize the value of the phenotypical aesthetic most black women in the usa have. The black pundits in white media may be more well known or heard than black owned beauty pageants but that means nothing. If I can find the black owned beauty pageants anybody black can and in them you have the most positive qualities. Black ownership/ unmixed black aesthetic/embrace of the statian black experience/ positive financial quality as both are decades old now.  What more can you ask for in the usa? in my mind nothing.

 

[Chevdove]

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Thought...like speech...flows.
When you start putting narrow limits and boundaries on it, you're intending to stifle creativity.

Maybe my mistake was apologizing in advance...lol.
Maybe I should have said what I had to say and he wouldn't have been offended by it.

Anyway, as for what I said......

I simply stated that when we talk about Black beauty pageants, we need to make sure that the contestants are actually BLACK.
Not mixed or damn near White like a lot of women are who are held up as representations of "Black beauty".

 

 

Okay. I have to go back and read the full thread!

 

3 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Vanessa Williams....whom you just brought up...is a GREAT example.

She's clearly mixed race and in my opinion is more White than Black.

 

What!?

 

Well, I put up some videos but they did not work!!!

I am going to try again!

Yes, Vanessa obviously shows some mixed traits, but man! She is Black IMO.

It's not only about traits, it is also about culture. 50% of a person's identity is also based on their culture.

 

 

3 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

But it would be crazy as hell to call a woman who looks as White as she does "Miss Black America".
It would be an insult to the Black race in general and Black women in specific for a seeming "white" woman to steal the glory and win the prize over very beautiful brown skinned and dark skinned women.

No other group would allow that.

 

Well, as a dark skinned Sista, I can certainly appreciate your views!!!

However, @Pioneer1 history does not lie and some light skinned

Black' people have been severely oppressed for being Black or of the Black American culture.

Colorism is a serious contention among us Black folk though, but Vanessa, IMO, is a Black woman. 

 

I think I got it right this time!!!

Here's the video of her talking about being the first Black Miss America and the hatred that she faced.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chevdove]

okay. I understand now. the last video I posted, well, you have to click the bottom of it to see Vanessa Williams rock it with her dress.

31 minutes ago, richardmurray said:

 

any photos of you in the bikini contest?:) haha

 

haha! Thank you @richardmurray for the thought, but I gotta do some serious exercising before I can even look at my past youth in those contest.

It's just terrible! I am sitting here with my hair looking like 'Hell bent over backwards' and typing away, looking at the beautiful Vanessa Williams and we are about the same age. That sista making me feel bad. I gotta get up and do something about this! LOL. 

[Pioneer1]

richardmurray

 

I see:) i am dictatorial in my style, I stifle imagination with the structure of my posts ok

I your commentary did not attack or offend the post. Talking about who contest beauty pageants is within the topic of beauty pageants. 

My point is that these two black owned beauty pageants have emphasized women who can not be deemed yella/white/mulatto while not excluding the range of all black women which are all shades of brown.  And since they both exists in the usa, which is a white european country, I think they are fine examples of black ownership that is honest to the larger situation of black people. 

 

Your point is well taken.
However my commentary that points out OTHER aspect of "Black" beauty contests doesn't divert or cloud out your point.

 

 

 

My offense to your point, is that your talking about black media pundits, not the black owned beauty pageants. 

 

How so?
I'm not about to go back to the beginning of this thread and read everything I said through a magnifying glass, however regardless as to whatever you took from it...my focus was that we need to make sure the Black women were BLACK women.

Not identity thieves.

 

 

 

Said pundits are mostly male, who are on white owned media outlets usually, with their most beautiful black woman is the yellaist black woman narrative...

 

Exactly.
They are brainwashed too.
See my point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
Chev

 

Okay. I have to go back and read the full thread!

Lol...
You don't have to, just read my first few posts to see where I was going.

 

 

 

Yes, Vanessa obviously shows some mixed traits, but man! She is Black IMO.

 

She shows more than just "some" mixed traits....she's clearly MORE White than she is Black.
And her father....in that photo atleast....is a straight up White man....lol.
 

That's why I prefer the term "AfroAmerican" for people like her.
She is part of our culture and ethnic group.  I have family members who look just like her.  She's part of our culture and has an African lineage, despite the amount of White ancestry she has.  But racially speaking...she's not a Black woman.

I fee it's an insult to Black women to point to HER as an example.



 

Well, as a dark skinned Sista, I can certainly appreciate your views!!!

However, @Pioneer1 history does not lie and some light skinned
Black' people have been severely oppressed for being Black or of the Black American culture.
 

Well you're an anomaly....lol.
Most dark skinned sistaz I grew up with HATED the preferential treatment so many light skinned and mixed women got in the community in terms of jobs, marriage, and acting positions....especially in music videos.

They didn't see light skinned people as being oppressed or victims of colorism.

Yes...to WHITE people...they were still "niggers" and they faced racism from them...but from the Black community?
A few snide remarks and resentment by darker skinned people is nothing compared to the GLORY and UPLIFTMENT some lighter skinned people often have gotten in our community in the past.

Many if not most of the past leader in the AfroAmerican community have been light skinned and mixed from WEB Dubois to Huey Newton and Malcolm X and currently Minister Farrakhan.

There's a reason for that.
It taps into the subconscious love and respect many of our people have for light/white skin.

[richardmurray]

@Pioneer1 

5 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

my focus was that we need to make sure the Black women were BLACK women.

Not identity thieves.

 

5 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

They are brainwashed too.
See my point.

I do gather that maybe you comment to my post just to get me to comment back, but you speak of we and then identity theft and then brainwashing... 

In my mind I have many questions, who is we ? who can determine if an identity is stolen or an identity is open? who can determine if someone is brainwashed or simply of an opposing position? 

I realize that my discourse may seem overwhelming or lacking space for oppositional discourse, but

when I think of the black populace in the usa or beyond i dont think of a we. it is a set of many groups united only in skin or appearance, some larger in populace, some smaller in populace, but not a we, that can act as one whole unit.

when I think of the black populace in the usa or beyond,  I see many identities, and not all are isolated, some are congruent to each other, and I don't know of any authority in the black populace to give a label to one of the indentities to any black person

when I think fo the black populace in the usa or beyond, who can determine is brainwashed. In my personal experience it isn't brianwashing but simply free choice that black people make that has led to frictions amongst black people. When the black DOS christian churches in majority supported the war on drugs, which was a governmental program to cover the government creating and supporting multiple illegal drug industries in the black populace for the jim crowian purpose of harming the black populace, it wasn't because of brainwashing, the black churches made a choice. The reason wasn't complicated. Black churches are not the oldest christian heritage in the black populace of the usa. the oldest christian heritage in the black populace of the usa is the negro spirituals of enslavement, a heritage which has no bible, cause black people weren't allowed to read, nor a physical church because black people weren't allowed to own land or have a home. 

The black church heritage is the second oldest christian heritage in Black DOS history and is based on an integration with whites who wanted to grow their religious communities with black members, by building churches + schools for blacks. So, the black church heritage was born of blacks willing to make deals with whites and place the responsibility of the black populace in the usa on the black populace gardless of any white actions, like burning a black town to the ground or making towns of black people sick or imprisoning town of black people, all which happened more times than any court cases for it from 1865 to 1980. 

I am not a brainwashing believer. I think humans make choices with full comprehension, I think too many humans want to force mass action, collective action and get frustrated when collective mass action is harder to achieve than they think it should and call it brainwashing. 

I keep saying to you and profd, alot of other black people don't think the way you do, they are not wrong, they are not right, they are not brainwashed, you two like myself, must focus on finding and acting with likeminded black folk. 

 

so I say all of that to say, I have nothing of value to add after your comment, but I rather focus on positives and what can happen. Black people who are not interested in building something with other black people solely, are who they are. I can accept them. 

[ProfD]

7 hours ago, richardmurray said:

I keep saying to you and profd, alot of other black people don't think the way you do, they are not wrong, they are not right, they are not brainwashed, you two like myself, must focus on finding and acting with likeminded black folk. 

I have definitely incorporated your idea of Black tribes into my thoughts regarding our people.