Mel Hopkins

33 minutes ago, Delano said:

We aren't even in the same book. Steady State is no longer a credible theory.  Perhaps @Troycan explain that to you. Or one of the voices in your head☺

@Delano Ok

7 minutes ago, Delano said:

@Mel is that a redirect. Or a cover for you trying to define theory that has been discredited. 

@Delano  of course not. It's an explanation of the nature of theories.  Gone tomorrow, here today.  Get better instrumentation and back again.  That's what a theory is - it's not a force of nature,  it's a hypothesis that may have facts surrounding it but it is still a theory.  

LIKE I WROTE... 

Quote

both are theories - not law so I put those two theories in the metaphysical category such as Aether, String, Multi-dimensions etc.  There is no proof just experiences -which can't be proven and I'm ok with that.

Now shall I define theory for you - so we'll be on the same page? 

59 minutes ago, Troy said:

So where do you (anyone) think is the source of the answers to my questions?

@Troy, not a clue.  But I know I pull information out of my butt, so to speak.   and I know where to use words that I've never heard of before until I need to use them.  But I just don't know. Maybe, I'll sleep on it. 

37 minutes ago, Cynique said:

l I think Troy was responding something i directed to you 3 hours ago.  Did you see that post?

@Cynique  I don't think I did... I think my browser has a glitch. I'm going to sign in again

2 hours ago, Troy said:

Perhaps there is a universal resource that we can all tap into to.  

 

Often when presented with a problem I can not solve, like some technical aspect dealing with this website.  I simply stop wracking my brain over it, and let the answer come to me.  The answer will seemingly put itself into my head without consciously thinking about it.  Nowadays, I whenever a solution does not come to me right away I just let it go, confident an answer will present itself.

 

I guess this is what people mean when they say, "let me sleep on it."

 

Now scientist may say that my brain unconsciously continues to work on the problem.  A Christian may say that God provided the solution.  A new age spiritualist  might say I tapped into the universal consciousness.

 

I generally equate God with that universal consciousness. 

@Troy  I just reread this on my phone messages and I had to come back to say, I get it now. 

You seem to acknowledge the metaphysical realm - you just don't mix it with science facts that produce the same results for anyone who test it.   Is that correct?

1 hour ago, Delano said:

So it is not a theory that any reasonable person would hold since it runs counter to the known facts.

@Delano  Ignorance would mean, I don't read or study these concepts. You do realize I was an electrical engineering major in high school, right?   When you have an academic foundation like the one I was afforded at Brooklyn Tech - it doesn't all just disappear. The interest remains.  I've continued to study physics theories even though I've long since left school. I may not throw around physicists names here - but it doesn't mean I'm not aware of whom you are referring to.  I'm just not a fanboy  of the physicists.  They are people with ideas- nothing more nothing less.   


So let me also share that biophysics of consciousness is a hobby of mine... this way you won't argue a point about me from ignorance. 

Now, have you heard of the big bounce theory?  It's contrary to the big bang theory.  There's more evidence supporting the latter.   however even the theoretical physicists who actually study this stuff for a living, agree they are theories.    

1 hour ago, Troy said:

Hey @Mel Hopkins did you know that Arno Penzias (mentioned in one of the articles Del linked to), spoke at our high school graduation?  He graduated from Tech :-)

@TroyI could have sworn our Keynote was Alumni Lou Ferrigno    I don't remember Arno Penzias but I will look him up in our year book... 

On 3/1/2018 at 6:39 PM, Cynique said:

 that's eerie that you would cite an example similar to one i had just been thinking about myself last night, in regard to the 3 blind men touching an elephant, which one described as having rough skin and the other described as having a tail, while the last one insisted it had tusks; all 3 were telling a truth that was influenced by their sense of feel

@Cynique  now see this is  similar to what Sheldrake talks about with his morphic resonance theory. 

What if I did pick up on your thoughts and it was you who spoke to me while I slept... There's no way to test it.  However, the fact that there was an occurrence ( and I don't believe in coincidences)  there's more going on in nature than we really know.  Maybe we shouldn't put it in the science category because there's no instrument to "test" it. 

Maybe this is what people speak of when they say keep an "open mind"  There are people I shut down and shut out immediately.  I believe stupid is contagious, Yet, I have no proof .  Doesn't matter to me though, I shut out people who prove to be stupid. 

I especially don't listen to talk radio because I don't want to tune into that frequency.  

You are wise,  so my mind is open to sharing your perspective and learning from your experiences.  So maybe I can actually "hear" you.   Maybe I tune into frequency such as yours and others who I believe I can learn from.  Maybe I can hear people like you all the time even when you're thinking. 

On 2/28/2018 at 7:48 PM, Delano said:

Look up the history of the Steady State Scientist and how the Big Bang Theory got its name.

@Delano  both are theories - not law  so I put those two theories in the metaphysical category such as Aether, String, Multi-dimensions etc. ...There is no proof just experiences - which can't be proven.  And I'm ok with that.

On 3/1/2018 at 8:51 PM, Delano said:

He sought to use science to increase faith in God

also that's flat out dumb on his part.  If something can be proven there's no need for faith. 

What is science?  

"Just as importantly, science is also a process of discovery that allows us to link isolated facts into coherent and comprehensive understandings of the natural world."

https://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/whatisscience_01

31 minutes ago, Delano said:

Yet religious exposure will effect them.

@Delano , yes that's what was revealed in this conversation - we've all been indoctrinated one way or another...and some of us were able to shake it off  like @Cynique  The rest of us are stuck namely you, me and @Pioneer1.  If we don't shake it off we will remain stuck.

I’ve used paper bags to set and curl my hair.  That doesn’t mean paper bags are its intended design and incorporated in its daily use. Setting my hair with paper bags is my practice and possibly the practice of other women.   However, a paper bag was designed as a disposable container.  Yet its properties allow us to find other uses...

The days of the week, months were not a religious discovery or creation.  If no one ever assigned a label to it or decided its uses; nothing would change because the moon comes up at night and the sun rises in the morning - and its positioning to the earth changes.

In our early human existence, pagans observed the moon phases and suns cycles for natural events - irrigation, gestation, birth, harvesting. reaping, sowing, etc.  This was even before any mythology was created.   Before there was mythology there was observation, some Africans threw in counting based on the moon phases and they came up with a base 7 mathematics.   Today we call it science, but the other wiser species and animals simply live within it -

all this activity was going on 100s of thousands of years before priests installed political systems and put themselves at the top of the food chain.  This was before they tricked people into believing natural occurrences were controlled by a god or gods.

So returning to Pioneer’s crude statement about African science vs western science and its relationship to turd and pizza -  It's akin to sheldrake's quip about some observers (scientists) building further observations based on the unknown (first cause).   

Now an interesting dynamic to this conversation for me was the fact that each of us were told to think a certain way and each of us brought this thinking to the discussion and it’s those beliefs that shut down our ability to create a new use from nature's properties. 

Once again discourse has cast its spell on us.  I think it has our entire community spellbound

@Cynique actually my mind was changed...Not about religion or science but my approach to the discussion.  I didn't even think I was subconsciously considering this discussion until I got a message from the universe about it this morning.

For me, this has been one of our most important discussions.  It has taught me the difference between use, practice and properties.  As usual we all come from different angles in the discussion and expect to convince the other we're right but - It appears we are all blindfolded touching an elephant and doing our best to describe what we feel through our biases.  

So, what's different about this topic?  I really don't know but it shed light for me. 

The message from the universe was this:

"When someone tells what something is for or how to do something - your mind begins to shut down on other applications -"

Yep that's what the universe told me this morning.   

The message woke me up and I wrote the following:

@zaji  reading some of these comments about peer review reminds me of my original comment about religion. that it requires obedience.   It's like scientists are being shunned for not obeying.  Even if they find evidence the  alleged constant is in question.  

39 minutes ago, Cynique said:

 

Kudos to  those  mature enough to be open-minded good listeners, and who make enlightenment their priority. 

@Cynique  This is where I would like to be too.  Unfortunately, I fail at every day.  Thank goodness for tomorrows.  

12 hours ago, Delano said:

Are you disputing that the numeric value of most calendar years is based on religion  .

@Delano, I'm not sure what you mean by "numeric value of most calendars"  -

if you're referring to dating conventions ,however, I will say "kind of".   This is based on the fact western civilization is only at 2018 years...whereas civilization has been here far longer  AND the calendar year is made up of 12 MOON-THS.   The 12 months are based on roman politics - since they had to determine when taxes were to be paid.   It was initially 10 months - i.e. DEC-ember (dec being the numeral prefix for10) also the months and days of of the week are named for roman /greek god/esses .   

@Cynique also raises a great point of note that we still recognize the seasons as did the monk who came up with current calendar era.   - The christian monk couldn't ignore the very Pagan belief of the science of nature. 

In any event, the assumption  that using the current dating conventions means christianity is wedded to science is absurd.   Even NASA  steers clear of  BC/AD  

11 minutes ago, Cynique said:

Right. i just noticed that myself while skimming over the thread.  Pioneer's "pretty sure" statement of "fact" was a prime example of having "knowledge" but not "comprehension".  

"He who knows not, and known not that he knows not, is a fool!"  

OMG!!! That's it!  That's why I reached for the duct tape!  Pioneer's statement lacks context! 

"I USED TO believe the knowledge was just information and facts... unless that information and facts comes with a proper understanding then it's still not knowing."

Thank you, @Cynique you've cleared up the mystery!   "knowledge is the basis of understanding" but you have to do the work.  You can't just slap a fact up in this forum and think you're going to get a sticker! 

Nope , not gonna happen LOL...
 

12 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

And MEL was wrong for challenging me on this issue.

@Pioneer1

  the only thing Mel was wrong about was dignifying  your half-witted response.   

I happened to be writing when I saw your bc/ad as  being part of science.  My head was about to explode because that was the furthest thing from truth. 

Saying AD/BC is used in science is about as bright as saying  English is a scientific language because the universal language is for  scientific studies is English.    None of it has anything to do with Christianity - it's a damn standard!  The only way scientists can keep tract of their discoveries is by using  standards.  

Is the demarcation of the Gregorian calendar determined by the birth of jesus - KINDA -but only the ignorant would stop there.  Is science governed by christianity -I guess if you're one of four people  who believes the sun revolves around the earth.    

3 hours ago, Delano said:

I have to agree with Mel. That your example using priest is flawed. You could have argued that by invoking their religious background they are represent a religious view and hence a representative of the church. However by definition they are not religion they are a facet of religion. And the part is not a proxy of the whole. The only instance that is true is for holograms. 

@Delano

 

I must agree with Del – science could be the new religion – especially if we’re to view religion as a sum of its parts and not necessarily its tenets.   

A little before I began working in broadcast journalism, I was reading scriptures. I remember saying I want to tell YOUR story like the disciples did in the bible. 

Long story short – a few weeks later I found myself sitting at the anchor desk of our local television station. The current weekend anchor and the news director set me up to do a demo reel. I got the news reporter job.  I was already employed so it was part-time, one day a week – Sunday.   I had NEVER even studied broadcast journalism. I was a writer who was curious and that’s it.

My second news story (a package) was a Catholic church closing.  The Roman Catholic Diocese of Wheeling–Charleston diocese was consolidating churches in a cost saving measure.  I laughed out loud thinking THE ALL has a wonderful sense of humor.   It was a story I didn’t want to do for two reasons – I despised Catholicism and I despised Catholicism. 

Still, it was my job that I asked for and I didn’t want to add to the parishioners’ pain.  To this day – I believe it was my best story ever…and I really sucked at broadcast news reporting in the beginning. 

But in interviewing the congregants, learning the history of the church and what it meant to those people -allowed me to lose the hate – and look at this religion through their eyes.

 I learned the people, their love for each other and the Supernatural was the religion …Some men made up some shit and told folks to worship their ideas but, in the end, religion is its believers -   So yes, science could be the new religion because all it needs are strong believers that the answers they seek will come if they exercise faith.

19 hours ago, Del said:

AD³  

@Delano

"The AD first meant “Anni Diocletiani” which related to the beginning of his reign at 284 AD. Diocletian’s laws, persecutions and punishments against the Christian community were severe. "

1 hour ago, Delano said:

Also it is in the religion topic

Ok - I look forward to your response.

12 hours ago, Delano said:

. But what I was suggesting is that you use my definition. That includes priest. And I use your definition and exclude priest and discuss it from there other persons point of view. 

@Delano  Ok, you go first.  This way I can get up to speed as to what we will accomplish. 

@Pioneer1

I said Probably because I wasn't there.  Only a fool would claim something as certain and not  have witnessed it.  

But that's what you do isn't it? 

 As I mentioned if the west were aligned with christianity we wouldn't be worshiping roman gods every day of the week and each month...

Ain't nothing christian about polytheism. 

You did mention Jesus - man you don't even read what you write - so why I'd think you'd research something is beyond me.  But Like I mentioned the first time -it was political decision and  not jesus or "christ" .    According to reports the monk still didn't get it right.  But you wouldn't know  what I'm talking about anyway.  

You're right about one thing. I usually don't waste my time arguing with you. 

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

Why on Earth would I go through all of that....lol.....when I already KNOW why?

@Pioneer1because instead of assuming you might discover something new - 

 For example, if that statement you made were accurate - then today wouldn't be Mars-Day,  the god of war day...  - If you researched a bit - you'd probably learn that the demarcation probably had to nothing to do with jesus and everything to do with politics ... further if you got really deep you'd know western science IS African Science - but you'd only know that if you took the time to research.

The oldest fossils of modern man are nearly 150,000 years old. Probably on a rainy day, a human walked in wet sand near what is now known as Border Cave in the Lebombo Mountains between South Africa and Swaziland. In the 1970's during the excavations of Border Cave, a small piece of the fibula of a baboon, the Lebombo bone, was found marked with 29 clearly defined notches, and, at 37,000 years old, it ranks with the oldest mathematical objects known. The bone is dated approximately 35,000 BC and resembles the calendar sticks still in use by Bushmen clans in Nimibia.

click for an expanded map

The closest town to the Lebombo Mountains is Siteki, renowned for its Inyanga and Sangoma School, a government school to train healers and diviners. It's a fascinating mix of botany, spiritualism and natural science, and you can visit the school if you arrange it in advance through Swazi Tourism in Mbabane.

2 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

And what event supposedly occurred that separates THIS era from the one BEFORE?

@Pioneer1 You will have to go and  research calendars- julian,  gregorian , hebrew and coptic and whatever else is out there to determine how  Dionysius Exiguus  came up with "date" demarcation.

1 hour ago, Delano said:

However I disagree with your statements which may be definitional. And contingent on the word "priest" and "religion"

@Delano  I already mentioned I'm not talking about practitioners.

Whatever a priest does in his private life does not change the tenets of religion.  S/he may be changed by it but it doesn't change the religion.  In fact, this is why excommunication is a thing.  If one doesn't adhere or obey the tenets - they can't participate.  

 Science is a study and can be tested.  Religion is a belief and even if it could be tested  obedience is still required.     

20 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

DATING SYSTEM Western science uses is "B.C" which stands for BEFORE CHRIST?????

Or @Pioneer1 that can be Before Common Era / Common Era  or Current Era  AND 

"Astronomical year numbering is based on AD/CE year numbering, but follows normal decimal integer numbering more strictly."  Other science disciplines also use this dating.  
 

@Delano

I attended St. John's University, where there is a Vincentian mission.   I didn't find out my philosophy books were censored until my oldest daughter went to college and took the same philosophy class!   I still have my Socrates to Satre text book and guess what's missing? The allegory of the cave LOL!

Anyway, I'm not talking about clergy or scientists and their individual pursuits.  I'm referring to  the differences between religion and science. 

We have  CERN where they are smashing atoms -  "Its business is fundamental physics, finding out what the Universe is made of and how it works."

Today, Pluto is no longer a planet .   

However- alterations aside, there  hasn't been any updates to the quran , or scriptures.  Religion requires obedience.  You can think and discuss it until the cows come home;  but you either follow its tenets or you don't.