Pioneer1

Sounds like some sort of weird pornographic fantasy to me. Must be something you learned growing up in Hickville Illinois, lol. I'm wondering where is your favorite poster that you admittedly "like".....Mr. Carle? He's obviously following the discussions here and I'm sure he's seen this thread, so why he doesn't have an urge to come on here and dialog with us is beyond me. After all, you dedicated an entire thread TO him, he should be honored and pay it some respect.

Del Lol...... Man, do you have ANY other role besides side-line cheerleader and instigator??? You sound like a kid who stands to the side and eggs on a school yard fight.

Chev @Chevdove But I believe that you are 'one-sided' here. Mel is NOT White, and therefore, her assessment as a Black woman can absolutely be trusted! It doesn't matter whether or not she's White, if she makes statements like "the best man" is a White man that automatically makes her biased towards White men; therefor any criticizm of Black men from her can't be trusted as being accurate and fair. White Supremacy is real, and Black support of this issue is also real, but your comments based off of her experiences that she is sharing is what I am addressing. I can understand if you were to say, that her statements seem like 'this or that', but you are being judgmental of one person's experience. My OPINION (not judgment) isn't based simply on her experiences. I don't know what she experienced I can only go by what she's said. My opinion is based on WHAT SHE HAS SAID. She has made it clear that a White man is the BEST and KINDEST man. This is from her directly and is enough to prove that her motives for criticizing Black men should be questioned. So, to form your opinions on an individual is not going to help the reality of White Supremacy at all. Perhaps it may not CHANGE the reality...... But my identifying individuals who clearly see White people are supeior may help CLARIFY that reality so that people are not confused or decieved as to who is for White supremacy and who is against it. Like a live hot power line laying on the ground....... You may not be able to turn off the juice or move it out of the way, but if you put flairs and barriers around it to keep people from getting near it, that may save a lot of lives.  If every body Black only married Black people and if every body White only married White people, then that IMO would be a bigger problem. Interracial unions are beneficial to some extent but understanding where the line is drawn where it can be detrimential is the problem. But picking on an individual for choices they have taken is not going to solve the problem. I think it is important though, to here you views, but to attack someone you don't even know, does not help, but takes away from the conversation. That is what I believe. Simply marrying someone of another race isn't the problem. It's when comparing them to men of your own race you declare them BETTER....that's the problem. It's not enough to simply find someone they love and be content and happy; they often go out of their way to ATTACK their own race and often opposite sex of their own race out of anger or hatred. 　 　 I understand that, in the bigger scheme, this is a problem. But when some Black women have been abused by Black men, and then are treated better by other kinds of men, then you are not hearing that part of it. You are not mirrorring the situation properly. We as Black people came to be in America where the White man has gotten the upper hand. So, if Black men are conditioned to be 'the Buck' on the slaveyard and are rewarded for raping Black girls, then it may be that some Black women come to hate Black men and see the White master as the top. This issue lingers. I don't understand how you can't see this as part of the problem too. If a White man comes along and builds a relationship with a Black girl who has been abused by Black men, then how can you not see this dynamic. Again, you're trying to JUSTIFY and EXPLAIN AWAY why she believes that a White man is the best man instead of simply CONDEMNING it. 1. For the record, many Black men have also been AB-USED by Black women as well, but that's not an excuse to condemn Black women or declare White women as better and you won't catch me justifying it. 2. Much of what many of these women are calling "abuse" isn't really abuse at all but rather a misunderstanding. A misunderstanding of the nature of the opposite sex as well as a misunderstanding of gender roles. If a man physically harms you that's clearly abuse, but if gets loud and angry from time to time or stares at other women in lust from time to time....is THAT abuse? Or is that a man acting out his nature as a man? In my observations, most Latina and Arab women KNOW their men and KNOW many of them tend to be very "macho" as part of their culture so they have learned HOW to talk to them to bring out better results from them and get along as a community. Too many AfroAmerican women instead of developing this same type of knowledge and understanding about the men of THEIR community would rather sit up and let White American women tell them how they should deal with their men and what they should expect and THIS is what's leading to most of the problems between AfroAmerican men and women. .Listening to White women TELL you what you should expect from men even when they don't expect it from White men. We need OUR OWN value system. Troy AfroAmericans may make up less than 20% of the population, but when the nation is nearly 400 million strong....that's still a HUGE minority. Surely 50 million people could carve out enough enclaves even within the greater society to comfortably practice and promote any type of rites of passage or culture we devised without the least bit of disturbance from outside our community.....if that's what we REALLY desired. Jews make up much less of the population but as you can attest to in New York they have their own commuities, hospitals, malls, and other social institutions where their cultures and rites are practiced relatively undisturbed and with minimal influence. 　 Delano Can you PLEASE explain to me (us??) how feminism and non-compulsory pornography contradict eachother? How did you come to this conclusion?

Yeah..... That sounds about right, lol.

.....I knew you had a LIST, didn't I ? So I knew that much.

Don't even waste your time asking her. She doesn't RESPECT you enough to tell you the truth....lol.

The only reason Cynique is dismissing Dr. Welsing is because of her mentor Neely Fuller Jr. Neely Fuller Jr. is right there on the TOP of her list of Black men she loves to criticize....right up under Elijah Muhammad, lol. But I remember watching that debate years ago. She really pushed that idea of Black children being more creative. I miss Tony Browns Journal. He used to have POWERFUL indepth interviews where it would just be him and the guest going at it and exchanging. No music (except for the introduction) no fluff, no glamour, just straight logic and dialog. I loved it. Interesting................. I met Washington (Denzel's SON....not Denzel himself) briefly when he was a young man playing football at Morehouse when I was living in Atlanta years ago. Me and a woman were speaking to a group of young men and I was secretly wondering why were there women students at a men's college until it was explained to me later that what I was looking at WERE NOT women...lol. After we got through speaking John came up and dialoged with us a bit and left and when he walked away one of the faculty asked me did I know who that was. I said not really, and she told me he was Denzel's son. I didn't know he was an actor now.

S'neak The fact that you'd put up that picture mocking Black men who PROBABLY were mistreated and railroaded by an unjust system with a history and reputation of injustice toward Black men tells us all where YOUR head is. I mean...I ALREADY knew....lol. All you're doing is just telling EVERYONE ELSE. You find it FUNNY that those Black men were targeted and locked up.

Troy You are probably right and that is because we are not properly raised (no father in the home) and the culture has a huge hand in this. You're right that no father in the home is a problem, but it's only PART of the problem. Having a father in the home is still not good enough to raise a GOOD man if the father himself doesn't know what his responsibilities are. Infact, I'd argue that if that father is abusive (to his children or their mother), stupid, irresponsible, or just plain doesn't know his duties as a man...the children are better off with him NOT being in the home and for the mother (assuming she's decent) to raise the children single. Atleast FEWER bad habits will be instilled in them. Also men can be kind and sensitive AND strong and powerful. This is true BUT if you look at my words I said strength and power is what women RESPECT. Most women don't respect kindness and sensitivity. They may like it but there's a difference between what women LIKE and what they RESPECT. They LIKE the guy they can call up and dump their feelings on or go shopping with, but they RESPECT the man with the car, the money, and house they're staying in....lol. Another good example..... Cynique may LIKE Delano more, but she RESPECTS Pioneer much more, if you understand what I'm saying, lol. From what I've read, BEFORE slavery in most African cultures we didn't have these problems of what men should or shouldn't do because each society had "rites of passage" that clearly explained to them the RULES of manhood and what was expected of them. Today, boys are told one thing in school, another thing by their family, and see something totally different on television. 　 Del I also knew a feminist who liked to look at porn. I Asked her how that worked she said i dont know but it turns me on. Unless the women she's watching are being abused, how is a feminist who looks at porn contradictory? I could see contradiction if you said she was a "devout Muslim" or "born again Christian" as both doctrines are clearly against sex outside of certain boundaries.....but feminist ideology doesn't have moral absolutes like that.

Again........ Did he (Jussie) admit that he did it? Did any of those Nigerian brothers come on and say what happened? Why aren't THEY being interviewed or being given a chance to tell what happened on television? Why are so many people speaking FOR them about what they did instead of THEM speaking for themselves? See, this is the problem.....we're not hearing anything from THEM...all we're hearing from is from the police department and the media taling ABOUT them.

Chev Concerning what you and Troy were talking about and when boys get to be grown men..... There was a common saying when I was growing up and the older I get the more truth I see in it......Black men don't become grown and mentally mature until about 40. I don't know about other races of men, but I can tell you based on personal experiences as well as observation that MOST AfroAmerican men I know don't become fully mentally mature until they are in their 40s...and then they continue to get smarter afterwards until old age decline sets in. But in their 20s and even 30s, most aren't mentally mature and often engage in silly and reckless speech and behavior. Have you ever heard of a White man or principal getting on the mic and announcing that "No one is allowed to bring HAIR SPRAY to school? or, what about this; Do you hear White men speaking out against White women wearing hair weaves, and bufont--hairsprayed hair styles? I will answer too; No, they never would disrespect or control White women like that. No, I haven't. But White men are far more controling of White women than they are even of Black women. Look at these little religious communities like the Mormons and Amish where they love to go off into rural areas and build their own compounds where they can have complete control outside of the law. They make their women dress in old fashioned 1800's style clothing, don't let them wear make-up, and FORCE them to have babies over and over again in some of these communities. White men will often KILL White women for getting disobeying them or not following cultural expectations. Look at all the murder-suicides that happen in these mostly White communities when White men get angry and kill the entire family including the FAMILY DOG! How often do Black men do that. 　 　 　 LOL! Oh but still, will you please answer the question? Because if you are going to keep saying this about Mel, then I want to know your response to this one, because it would be 'WORSE' if you don't see or recognize the hiprocracy here. You did not see anything wrong with that Black man's behavior in a Black Church community dressed like she was going to a bar. But, on the other hand, Black men want to control Black women in what they wear and how they style their hair. Again, you're clouding and confusing the issue. My criticizm of Mel isn't about how she dresses. My issue with her was HER criticizm of Muhammad Ali and other Black men who attempt to tell Black women how to dress because I didn't feel that she.....having been (or still is?) inlove with a White man and seeing him as the best....was qualified to do so. Her motives couldn't be trusted. 　 When you feel that it is right to confront Black women who date White men as 'a blow to the Black cultural structure', then how can you sit there and tell me you don't see this kind of evil behavior of Black men, college boys or not, who 'rape' black girls as NOT being detrimental to the 'BLACK CAUSE'!? Come on I DO see it as detrimental, I never said it wasn't....it just wasn't the issue we were talking about. Again, you're bringing up all of these other issues to DROWN OUT the main issue I'm speaking on which is that fact that you have Black women who worship White men and think they are superior. 　 Troy I didn't word my previous statement correctly. Yes many Black women will call a man weak and broke, but only after getting angry with him to the point that she no longer holds back how she really feels. My point is most women tend to hold back their true feelings and don't tell men how they really feel or what they really want unless they're either drunk or in a fit of strong emotion. I'm sure you've experienced a woman you're with arguing with you over something minor like the trash or vacuuming and then out of nowhere she brings up something you said or did or the way you looked at her female friend or some other woman WEEKS ago....lol. You standing there like, "OK.....where the fuck did THAT come from????" It was in her mind and shewas bothered by it but she held it back and only in a fit of rage did she actually tell you the TRUTH about how she really felt! In my opinion if AfroAmerican women would be a more honest about how they REALLY feel from the jump and in an intelligent and respectful way CLEARLY tell AfroAmerican males (little boys included) what they really want and expect from them, it would clear up a lot of confusion and would actually help them grow up and be the ideal men they should be. If you want men who are strong, wealthy, and good in bed...then SAY THAT CLEARLY. And then boys will grow up focused on trying to BE that. Don't imitate White women or Asian women and go around telling boys that a good man is "sweet" and "kind" and "understanding" when you know good and dog-gone well that's not what YOU want in a man. It goes back to what I've said over and over again, AfroAmericans need to stop imitating White people and come up with our OWN values and morals that work for us. Black women don't respect "kind" and "sensitive"...they respect strength and should admit that.

Del How about we hold off going back and forth with eachother and wait on Mr. Carle to speak. I'm sure he's following this thread and probably this site. Troy Guys, what was it about K2 that ruffled your feathers so? Was it because he was new and came with guns blazing without showing you any deference? Not at all. I know some people (like Cynique...lol) get territorial when "new people" come on board and see them as a threat to their popularity but I actually enjoyed exchanging perspectives with him until we had some sort of disagreement and he insulted my Mother....and then my Father. Say what we will about White people but atleast when you get into conflicts with them there are certain things I simply haven't seen them do that Black people have, like talk about ya mama....lol. I'm not sure what it is about AfroAmericans that it seems they often go for the jugular with eachother.

Has he ADMITTED to lying? Has there been a confession?

Delano 　 He was clear about looking for and exploiting weakness. He doesn't respect or fear you enough to apologise. You are the only person he turned out on the page. He found that chink in your armour. Which is obvious because displays of strengths also illuminate weakness. Anyone who claims someone isn't their enemy simply because they "don't sound" like one has no business trying to lecture someone else about conflict strategy, weakness, and chinks in their armor....lol. Infact, aren't YOU the same one who threw a hissy fit about K Alexander's assuming you didn't go to college and suggesting that you needed to futher your education????? You are wrong. This is a public forum and that was a toxic display of Black self hatred. Which had a negative impact on everyone on the site. Man, you have the analytical skills of a John Deere lawn mower....lol. First of all, you accuse someone of being "wrong" about something they never said in the first place. Second, the ONLY one on this site sensitive enough for our conflict to have had a negative "impact" on was probably YOU.....because you're just THAT sensitive. Like a little kid who can't stand to see grown folks fighting and covers their ears as the run into the other room, lol. I though you said you were going to stop disputing with people and was going to take on a more observatory role.....but here you are attacking my posts and hashing up old conflicts out of the blue. Here I am asking Loren Carle a few questions and all of a sudden YOU jump out of the bushes and on the attack as if any challenge to him is a challenge to you....lol. "What's the matta boss....is dat negro givin' US a problem?"

Cynique Monique doesn't have to be a black nationalist to be pro-black. All she has to be is a black person who is anti-white when it comes to blacks being exploited. There is no need for her to be "anti-White" or anti- any other race or ethnic group. All she needs to do to be pro-Black; and she can do that simply by playing more dignified and respectable roles than what she played in Precious....which was disgraceful. Troy Cynique that is all true, but why is most of the stuff we get awarded for by the majority culture usually something negative. For the same reasons these violence-n-crime promoting rappers are awarded so many record deals and get so much attention......because desired behavior is rewarded in order to REINFORCE it! The racists IN the entertainment industry (not all those in the industry but the racists in it) who want to demonize AfroAmericans in they eye of the public will pay Black entertainers big money and offer them fame in exchange for playing demeaning roles and promoting violence and immorality.

That admitted White Supremist Coast Guard SHOULD have been making the headlines today instead of Jussie Smollett, but that would put to much focus on the REAL problem.

But that was between me and him. I didn't ask for any moderator to get involved with that situation or to resolve it. ..and I'm STILL DEMANDING AN APOLOGY!. What you're asking for is for Troy to have a more hands-on approach and possibly discipline/punish people who don't show what YOU believe to be respect. And this also goes more into what I've frequently said about why so many women like other heavily moderated websites where they can point out people they don't like and have then punished or banned.

Mel Interesting........ Very interesting. Troy & Mel As for what you two were talking about, Ofcourse a woman can raise a boy to be a man as in being an "adult male"; but a GOOD MAN who can adequately protect and provide for himself and his children...few women can actually do that. Infact, usually if he is raised by a single mother, it he DOES end up being a GOOD MAN who can adequately provide for and protect himself and his family it's because he learned it from OTHER MEN in his environment and not his mother. Chev I share Troy's observation that none of the stories you provided answered my question about what a Black man did that was MORE CONTROLING and MORE DISRESPECTFUL than what that White man acting as principle did to you in highschool. The only thing that comes close as an example of how a Black man actually mistreated a Black woman was your last one, but it wasn't done to YOU. Worse, what I think you're attempting to do is cloud the issue by introducing Ariana Grande, how Black men date White women, and everything else under the sun rather than focus on the fact that you are justifying Mel's declaration that the best man is a White man. Troy Yes, Black men are also angry about being powerless but they express their powerlessness in different ways. Most Black men who feel powerless will try to GET SOME; where is most Black women who are angry at the Black men in their lives for being powerless will make every excuse in the world for why she doesn't like or respect him EXCEPT for admitting that he's weak and broke.

Something about this entire case and the way the media is covering it doesn't sit right with me..... First of all, even before the media started calling it fake and Smollet was arrested, different bits and pieces of information were being leaked by the media from the start to make people question the case. This makes me wonder if the mainstream media KNEW more about this story being "fake" from being begining and just ran with it anyway. And if so, WHY would they intentionaly follow a false story. Secondly, he's being arrested and charged with filing a false police report that is being called a felony and people are claiming he's facing time in jail. People constantly file false police reports but aren't being imprisoned for it, so why is HE being treated so much harshly? What I'm concerned about is could this case be an EXCUSE to either ignore future claims of racial violence as being "fake" and phony, or a way of intimidating people from reporting actual cases of hate crimes in the future?

How can I prove or disprove that which does not exist? I said she has no history of being pro-Black. The only way to disprove this statement is to find PROOF of her being pro-Black before all of this began. Doing a few stand up routines on Def Comedy Jam or Comic View doesn't make her a Black nationalist. Infact, the role she played as that embarrassingly dysfunctionaly mother on Precious was one of the biggest disgraces for Black women that Hollywood ever produced as far as I'm concerned.

Chev 　 But, PIoneer, how dare you equate homosexuals to Black women who, for what ever reason, choose to be in an interracial relationship! You gotta nerve! Both are engaging in behavior that reduces the Black population. I did not defend 'Black women' who call White men better than BLack men. As I said, earlier, This man chose to marry Mel, and so, they both chose to commit to a marriage.  I didn't get that same understanding as you, in that she 'calls White men better than Black men'. I understand that her past relationships with Black men were not good, and the man that she married came along and she feels that he was 'the Best Man' for her. I think that you are reading into her explanation too deep. I don't think you're reading her explaination AT ALL. She clearly said that the best man period...was a White man. That means that a White man is better than ALL Black men as far as she's concerned. 　 Ah!!! See, you completely ignored my defense regarding your reaction to 'Arianne Grande'! What did Ariana do wrong? What does what she wore to Aretha's funeral have to do with this conversation? What Ariana wore MAY have been inappropriate, but even as a Caucasian women she never said that White men were better than Black men. 　 in that in many cases, Black men do not respect Black women, and that is putting it mildly Was that White principle in your school who tried to shut Black girls down and force them to wear their hair a certain way showing you respect? What Black man showed you MORE disrespect than he did? What has a Black man done to YOU that was more controling and disrespectful than that? LIke I said, she was referring to her husband, . . . who chose her! He didn't simply choose her, she made the first move and "conjured" up this blonde haired blue eyed man of her dreams whom she has declared to be the "best" of all men, not just for her....but period. And he just "happens" to be a White man, lol. You keep justifying why a Black woman should worship White men by making excuses for it instead of condemning it all together.

　 　 Mel Now the the BEST man you conjured up just happened to be a White man. But I wonder what race/ethnicity was this "D-man" (demon) character of your novel????? Haven't read it yet, but something tells me he didn't have blonde hair or blue eyes. At the risk of you telling me it's none of my business....... Since you say this man was so great (the "best man" according to you) and he's still alive, I don't suppose you want to fill us in on why you're no longer with him. Troy In a word, "yes." Slavery imposed strict rules, incarceration imposes strict rules, living in your momma's house imposes strict rules. Free adults abhor strict rules -- it is the opposite of freedom. Actualy it depends on the adult. For me PERSONALLY, in many cases it's not about how strict or lax the rules are but how FAIR they are and how justly they are enforced. On too many jobs whether there are many rules or just a few, the fact that SOME people get to break the rules and are held to a different standard while othes are victims of zero tolerance policies. One of the reason Black people don't like a lot of rules is because many of our people are too LAZY (yes I said it....lol) to make our own rules and live by them. They'd rather let White people make the laws of the land, policies at work, rules at work, and then complain about how unjust they are. On many of these jobs you'll see a predominately Black workforce and a predominately White management and you wonder if racism is the reason until you realize that the Black workers aren't in management because they didn't want the responsibility that comes with it. But when they are the first to get fired or always end up getting the shittiest hours.....they want to complain. Rules are good as long as they are just and promotes the agenda they were intended for. 　 　 Nubian I won't lie. I thought you were being a little harsh, at first. Today this thread made me vomit in my mouth a little. Ever get the feeling that white supremacy has already won? After everything they did to our ancestors and still do to us. . . them bastards seem to keep proving who is superior and who is not. Well, the purpose of me even coming into this thread in the first place was to EXPOSE to you who you were dealing with and their mentality. As you know women tend to be less direct than men and they'll fight and and fuss with you over one thing when they're really angry over something else. Black women in America often will fight and fuss with Black men over them being controling or telling them how to dress or how to fix their hair when that's not really the issue. The issue is that too many Black men are broke and powerless and THAT'S what these women are angry about but they won't say it. A powerful Black man with wealth can tell a Black woman anything he wants and she'll shut the hell up and do it with no argument like they often do it for White men. BTW......POWERFUL response to Loren Carle. I didn't even notice it until I heard mention of it in another thread and I had to come back and read it. Cynique Guys who can only be described as envying white men who have out-foxed black ones and now run the world. You have completely overreacted to the post from the innocuous white man, and Mel's having been married to a white guy who she found attractive on many levels. Get over it. Stop wallowing in your insecurities. and whining about the irrepressible racism that is not cramping your style, just your flexibility. Not to mention that you are not altogether infallible in your views and solutions. You are not visionaries, you are maladjusted malcontents, victims of your own brainwashing. Petulant because you can't mold black women to fit your specifications, never considering that you yourselves might leave something to be desired as you walk around exemplifying your own brand of European mediocrity. Yes, racism is ubiquitous but you can't conceive of the idea that it will run its course because diversity is the wave of the future. No, you're stuck in the mire of a viscous tar pit that hampers your inability to cope with an indifferent world that ignores your grievances. Go out and find the type of women who meet your standards and spare the rest of black women your Afro-centric vigilance. Well..... You sound rather IMPRESSED by the actions of White men. Infact, you sound like you ADMIRE the way Caucasian men have trotted the globe colonizing other people's lands and slaughtering and enslaving millions of people of color. Even going as far as to accuse AfroAmerican men who point it out as being "envious" of their accomplishments.

Perhaps someone else can explain this to Del....? Ok, I'll give it a try............. Del Since you know about finance, I'll explain it in economic terms...... Troy believes the best approach to promote free thought and critical dialog is to have a laizee faire "hands off" approach. Critique is often what adds flavor to dialog and those who aren't strong enough to handle occasional critique shouldn't participate in it. Further more, although he didn't say it I BELIEVE he sees respect as a very abstract concept that means different things to different people and if he starts exerting too much influence over people in the name of what he believes to be "respect" it would probably offend and infringe on what others believe is perfectly fine speech; so trying to enforce or even promote "respect" it's too slippery of a slope to go down. Yiu are attacking a man thsy suggested you listen to the choices Black Women make. And you are DEFENDING a man you know little about nor do you even know his motives. I believe you said "he doesn't sound" like an enemy; but what is an enemy supposed to sound like? 　 Troy so if he comes back he'll see that tag hopefully react to your replies; take what is meaningful and throw away the rest (side eyeing you know who 😉). Don't look at me, I SUPPORT diversity...lol. 　 　 Nubian I do respect an open forum and believe that will open up conversation for others who may wish to express themselves as well. I agree that we need to be respectful so if I disrespected anyone or anyone feels I offended them in any way, then I sincerely apologize. If you simply CHALLENGE this "nice" White man, some of the women on here will take offense to it. Like you said, if someone is truly superior they can confidently withstand any challenge. If he can't take the heat he shouldn't come into the kitchen. But what I've noticed that just like the Adam and Eve myth....satan came at the WOMAN first and tricked her into helping bring down the man. Notice how a lot of these people sweet talk and cozy up to the women first and get THEM on thier side because they know most brothers will follow. @Chevdove Chev Was this time period you speak of the 70s or early 80s? That was a time there was a lot of Black pride and Black unity among the youth. Back in the 70s, almost every highschool with Black students had it's own Black newspaper ! Cynique What i liked about him was that- You can end it right there, lol. You LIKE him, so anything else you say after that is clearly a result of your bias and love for this......man..... whom except for his race you know little else about. But you DO know you LIKE him.....lol.

　 Nubian Wow. I didn't expect to read this. I did..... I KNEW how they felt and I TOLD YOU that they are inlove with White men and to notice how as much as you call them "sister" they never called you "brother"....until I pointed it out. They see THEM as their savior and see YOU (not you personally but intelligent masculine Black men collectively) as the problem and in many cases their adversary and enemy. But it's not malicous bro, their minds are just poisoned from growing up in a poisonous system that tries to teach them to hate themselves and hate their men and even hate their children. Even they don't know where it comes from. Miracles can happen and they CAN possibly be changed, but one of the best things to do is for strong intelligent Black men to RAISE A NEW GENERATION of Black boys and girls with the correct frame of mind to break this generational.....uhh.....dilema (I won't use that other word). Mel 　 I conjured up "Conjured up"...... Interesting choice of words. When you first described the being you "conjured up" you said: Now you say: Seems to me you sound GRATEFUL that a "handsome" and "powerful" White man with blonde hair and blue eyes CAME DOWN (from being conjured up) and found a Black woman even worthy of consideration. But just remember.....demons and devils are also conjured up.

Cynique & Del How about this..... How about you let Loren come on here and speak for HIMSELF on the meaning of the name instead of trying to acting as his spokesperson? He's not being prosecuted so he doesn't need you two auditioning for his defense attorney.