Pioneer1

Silliness Personified My sarcastic remark was in keeping with your yearning to return to the "primitive". You and your pompous self are who deemed my statement as demeaning because you only focus on the urbanized African, as if the other environments which still exist are an embarrassment to you. You want to pick and choose what there is to hold in high esteem about Africa and chastise anoney who dares to view Africa in its totality. just go somewhere and beat a drum - or your meat if a drum isn't available. I didn't say I had a "yearning" to be primitive but...... PRIMitive not only means FIRST but it also means PRIME or ideal So if finding the PRIME and IDEAL way of life means going PRIM-itive, then perhaps that's the way AfroAmericans should go; since this LATER (and quite mutated) Western way isn't working out too well for most of them.

Troy I know Raleigh, NC pretty well and have have going there all of my life. I haven't spent too much time in the Raleigh Durham area. I've been through there and it looked pretty nice from what I've seen but a little on the small side. Back when I was really interested in living Down South during the 80s and 90s I was looking at more of the bigger cities like Charlotte, Houston and Atlanta because I thought they had more to offer in terms of women and employment. Gibran Man....... You seem to be one of those rare individuals who can say a LOT to me yet leave me speechless with nothing to say in return but rather THINK......and think deeply....about what you said, lol.

We are talking about ARTISTIC EXPRESSION and CREATIVITY! .....not "finger snapping" and flaymboyant hyper-feminine behavior. And again, everyone who has lived with or spent any considerable amount of time around Black people whether here in the United States, in South America, or Africa can attest to the fact that Black men (both gay and straight) are among the BEST DRESSERS and most STYLISTIC men in society. My brother was (is?) a player's player and had 2 closets full of shoes and could outdress ANY homosexual. I remember when straight Black men even used to get their nails "done" while getting their shoes shined in the barber shop. I'm talking about pimps who had flocks of women getting their nails glossed...lol. Straight Black men simply DO NOT HAVE the problems of expressing their artistic side and creativity that White men have because most don't have. Gay negroes ain't got shit on a straight brother who knows how to "get down"......lol.

Cynque Well if you believe this, then why do you continue to harp on the idea that in America whites are trying to impose their puritanical values on black folks? It's obvious your complaints are without substance, especially since one reason for the negative black situation is this country can be traced, in part, to blacks acting like they're still living in the jungle. Something you promote. Your deluded and misinformed comment about Black people "living in the jungle".....besides being offensive....exemplifies the ignorance most AfroAmericans have about ancient and modern African society and social life. Perhaps this is one of the reasons you SEEM to love Caucasian society and Caucasian morality so much and want to hold on to it at all costs even if it's clearly failing most AfroAmericans. Because you believe the alternative is not just inferior but animalistic and "jungle" like.

They are talking about the investor economy, not the working family economy. ((applause)) When people say the system is failing, I correct them and inform them that "the system" that has them working 2 and 3 jobs and living check to check isn't failing but actually working EXACTLY as it was designed to. Not to make you wealthy.... And not to force you into miserable poverty..... But to keep you in that "sweet spot" where you're busting your ass being extemely productive while the only compensation you get for it is just enough funds to keep you alive and satisfied so that you will continue to work. They've learned from the past that if they work people too hard the labor will either kill them or force them to revolt. So they work them to right up to the limit and then through in a few toys and trinkets to keep them happy from time to time.

Cynique A woman's vagina is, indeed, a negotiating tool in many scenarios. It's when she chooses not to use it as one that she is in jeopardy in other scenarios Yes, it IS a negotiating tool at times; and a very vauable one. I don't blame women one bit for using it when they have the need and opportunity to do so. But that's not what you said earlier. You said it was a very powerful WEAPON as if it can rival what's in a man's arsenal. A woman's BEST and most EFFECTIVE weapon isn't what's between her legs but what's between her EARS. There's a difference between valuables and weapons and they serve two entirely different functions. If a criminal comes to rob your house you aren't going to fend him off by throwing gold coins at him....lol.

We should be specific.... When people...especially AfroAmericans....talk about the power and unity that the LBGT community has, they often forget WHO is funding it and WHO is leading it. It's not funded or led by AfroAmerican or Latino homosexuals and bisexuals, but by CAUCASIAN homosexuals and bisexuals. Caucasians....gay or straight....tend to be wealthier and more organized than other groups and THEY are the ones pushing the movement. LGBT people of color are just going along for the ride. Cynique Gays have acquired power because brilliance and artistic creativity so often go hand-in-hand with homosexuality and these traits are assets. Only in Caucasian society. In African society (meaning Black people world wide) currently and historically homosexuals are no more creative or artistic than heterosexuals. Straight Black men are just as good at color coordinating their clothes, dressing nice, wearing lots of cologne, making good music, and dancing....things that White men have traditionally called "gay" or "womanly"....as homosexual Black men are. The ONLY race where you find male homosexuals being more artistic and stylish is among Caucasians.

Yeah, back when I first started living in Charlotte I used to STAY up in the Chicken Box eating rice and gravy and smothered pork chops.....lol. But aside from the Chicken Box, it was Charlotte where I was first introduced to BO JANGLE! At first I was offended by the very name, but after tasting some of that chicken you coudn't keep me away, lol. But you're right about the gentrification and rebuilding of Charlotte. I was down there about 10 years ago and they had a TON of Mexicans who were moving in and taking over the apartment complexes all through out the North and East sides of the city. They also built a nice elevated train system that I believe ran through the Southside. Overall I still think it's a nice city, much "nicer" than Atlanta in a friendly sort of way. Charlotte still has much of it's southern charm while Atlanta has lost most of it.

Everytime I read or hear the words North Tryon it reminds me of the time I spent living in Charlotte and the places I used to go during my relatively brief time there. ...how they called downtown "uptown". And I really miss eating at a soul food restaurant called The Chicken Box that was on Tryon (I think South Tryon) street. I also used to chill at the UNC on South Tryon from time to time.

Chev I didn't doubt the authenticity of your story, again....it's history so it can be argued over for decades as to the truth of it. But I'm not going to argue or doubt it. But what IS clear about this story is that it does not provide an example of what you claimed. I don't want to see the waters get muddy or murky so I'm going to ask my questions again: Can you provide for me CLEAR HISTORIC examples of how Black men not controlling their sexual appitite led to the downfall of their kingdoms and the enslavement of their people. OR can you provide CLEAR and HISTORIC examples of how Black men mistreating Black women led to their kingdoms being thrown down and their people enslaved? Troy If you think the MODERN traditions and family structures are superior to what you suggest are outdated traditions dug up from thousands of years ago....then why aren't they working for MOST Black people today where the majority of relationships end in seperation or divorce? ......and that's only if they ever get off the ground in the first place because MOST Black couples today don't even bother getting married. Hell, if the past is better than the present WHY NOT go back to it? 　 　 Cynique When it comes to "forming and maintaining families and long term relationships", has it occurred to Pioneer that white people are who have a high divorce rate and dysfunctional families and an increase in homosexuality, and that nobody in this country is strictly adhering to these so-call white values he so adamantly rejects. Moreover, the breakdown of the black family stems not from white values but from those black people who lead a loose, multiple-partner lifestyle that Pioneer insists comes natural to them. His assessment of a situation he has concocted in his head proposes out-dated solutions that are neither viable nor grounded in reality. Most reject White/Western values only after ATTEMPTING to try them and realizing that they don't work. So they pretty much give up on ALL forms of discipline and morality instead of mapping out a code and system of their own that they can live by effectively. It's like a person with a mechanical aptitude who tries to be a lawyer and since he didn't graduate law school he decides to drop out and be a bum instead of getting a trade to use his natural skills more wisely.

I might.......but only if you PROMISE not to follow me there.

Troy You can't say "people don't care"....obviously I care and many other AfroAmericans that I know care. We may or may not be in the majority, but we are out there. And to answer your question of what should we do....... We should....degree by degree.....build OUR OWN medical facilities and grow OUR OWN foods and produce OUR OWN medicine and educate OUR OWN children instead of letting people who obvioulsy don't have our best interests in mind and have admitted to seeking a reduction in the Earth's population do these things for us. Xeon Ha! I’m still trying to bend my mind around your suggestion that there could possibly be "factors to increase black homosexuality". I’ve never heard of such thinking (black people possibly being targeted for homosexual population increases). Perhaps you could articulate what you think these factors could be if it were to happen…. It's hard to believe something you DON'T WANT to believe. But if you've never heard of the conspiracy to increase homosexuality in the AfroAmerican community you should study the lectures and interviews of Neely Fuller Jr, Tariq Nasheed, and Dr. Wesely Muhammad for starters. If homosexuality is NOT a choice.....then it's genetic. And genes can be altered, manipulated, and/or influences to produced a desired effect.

That cute little sista from McDonalds who whooped that Caucasian man's ass after he reached over and grabbed her CERTAINLY wasn't waiting on anyone to defend her.....lol. 　 　 Troy This is true too, but I don't think anyone here ever congested you can act crazy then expect your man to jeopardize his life to support crazy. Mel did. She said she thought Black men should offer UNCONDITIONAL support and protection. Gibran I hear what you're saying about the vengance and what we might call "going all out" on somebody. But you know most people.....even most men....just don't think that way. They aren't prepared to carry a grudge that long, especially in THIS society. It's my understanding that in the Middle East and in places like Italy men are raised to carry grudges to protect the "family honor" so they feel obligated to "get even" with someone who's wronged them or their family even if it takes them a lifetime. 　 Cynique Women have a very effective weapon in the battle of the sexes and it's nestled between their thighs. It levels the playing field and can make men happy losers. The very act of rape and other forms of sexual assault againt women destroys this foolish theory about a woman's vagina being some sort of weapon or negotiating tool. I don't really think Mel and Chevdove were lamenting the situation, but were instead dramatizing and empathizing with women who are not as strong and independent as they are. Then they should let THESE womens speak for themselves instead of being their spokesperson because all of this "standing up for others" leads to too much unnecessary conflict in the AfroAmerican community. How many discussion panels have you seen where intelligent, clean, educated AfroAmerican men and women are arguing with eachother over how "no good" Black men are or how "gold digging and lazy" Black women are when NO ONE on that panel fit that profile. They're arguing with eachother as representatives of people who don't deserve representation. Decent intelligent Black men and women should work together in peace and stop blaming EACHOTHER for the behavior of the fools of our community.

If you notice, most or atleast a disproportionate percentage of people in America who live to be over 100 years of age are AfroAmericans. Despite all this crap about "how much longer Americans are living" today, my Father who grew up in the Deep South used to tell me about how healthier and stronger AfroAmericans were in the past and how much longer they lived eating real wholesome food. People can talk about all of these so-called medical breakthroughs of modern society, but the fact is in just the past 20 or 30 years only I've witnessed the quality of life for American society in general decline. There are far more children with obesity, asthma, and mental health problems today than their was when I was a kid. My personal observations and what I've witness just verifies more and more the things that my Father and other older AfroAmericans told me.

Xeon Oh really? So, you believe most of the dysfunction found in American Negro culture is a direct result of Negroes attempting to emulate white people and white culture? Is what you really believe? Yes.....yes.....and yes again, Lol. Xeon, Troy, Del Since we have 3 other "presumably" AfroAmerican men in this thread besides myself, I have an idea...... Instead of JUST contending my opinions and what I believe are the problems with gender and sexual relations in the AfroAmerican community.....why don't YOU state what YOU gentlemen think the problems are and what's preventing the majority of our people from forming and having maintaining families and long term relationships between the men and women. Don't be like those negroes who used to stand around in the crowd jeering and heckling in disagreement with Malik Shabaaz or Marcus Garvey while they were preaching to their people and offering what they thought were the solutions. Just questioning and challenging everything these men said INSTEAD OF offering their own opinions and solutions. Clearly there are problems that need to be solved, so if I'm wrong or off base TELL ME WHAT the problems and solutions are.

Nevertheless, keloid scarring is still a well known part of African tradition. Infact, I think the Black Fraternity Kappas brand their member with a "K" that keloids as part of an ancient African tradition.

@Chevdove If....according to your story...Hatshepsut was the one who started the enslavement of Nubians and Syrians....and Thutmose III (the same one who brought in Caucasian women and mistreated African women) was the one who put an end to her era.....then what I get from this story is that some African leader who had a fetish for White women was the one who brought an end to the works of a woman who was enslaving Africans, LOL. I'm sure that wasn't your intended point, but that's what one would gather from it upon close examination. 　 I find it hard to grasp though, that you have never been so in love with a woman that would not want some type of commitment. That wasn't your question. Your question was about my willingness to have sex with a woman who has multiple sexual partners, and I told you that I and other men do it all the time in this society. It's nothing new or unusual. Your question mentioned nothing about MARRIAGE or LOVE or POSSESSIVENESS.

Troy If in 100 years half the population of any group was gay, and presumably not procreating, that would likely spell disaster for that group. I don't have to do the calculation to know that is not enough to replace the population and that group would quickly die out. Give that we BOTH agree that this would be a disaster......wouldn't you like to know IF factors were being introduced into YOUR environment to increase the amount of homosexuality?

One of these days I would like a crew of AfroAmerican students to actually go to EVERY ethnic group on the African continent no matter how big or how small and document every single cultural trait from marriage to language to diet and PRESERVE it for OURSELVES. We can't rely on the bias and highly erroneous methods of Western scholarship to organize and preserve data...especially when it comes from people of color. There's a reason why the term "lost in the translation" is so valid at times.

I took a similar position that OFCOURSE Black men haven't done enough to defend Black women but how COULD we when most AfroAmerican men are barely able to even defend THEMSELVES???? It's like a little 4 year old girl looking for her 8 year old brother to protect her from being abused by adults. What can that little boy do? Most AfroAmericans today are in a "child like" where too many lack the confidence to stand up and defend themselves and their community and many lack the knowledge to PROPERLY defend themelves even if they had the confidence ot do it! Further, let us not forget another point I was making in that "defending the Black woman" thread...... If AfroAmerican women want AfroAmerican men to defend them they must COOPERATE with us in that defense. They must listen to those of us who know what we're talking about and obey CERTAIN instructions we give them for their own safety so as to LESSEN the amount of situations that may call for us having TO defend them. You aren't going to hang out all hours of the night getting drunk, cussing out people, wearing mini-skirts with g-strings bending all over and grinding men of all races in the club and on the street and as soon as some man you were rude to or having some crazy relationship with looks at you cross eyed you want trun to a GOOD Black man and snap your fingers at him and say "sick 'em!!!"......lol......noooo. Make sure YOU (Black woman) are righteous and acting properly so that a man is JUSTIFIED and FUELED by something called RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION to defend you!

That was a very compelling story bro. I have a few questions for you. If you were 19 back in '72 that would put you in your 60s today; I used to live in North Carolina......what was it like back in the 50s and 60s especially with regard to the Black community in bigger cities like Raleigh and Charlotte? Also, I'm not going to ask you anything that would incriminate you further but did you experience any spiritual or supernatural events during your criminal or violent activities like a spirit of a victim coming back to haunt you or an "angel" coming to your rescue ?

Troy I admit that I don't know for sure whether it is or not, either. Since neither you or I KNOW whether homosexuality is actually increasing, my question now is how DO we know or find out this information? How would we go about determining whether or not the rate of homosexuality and bisexuality are actually INCREASING in the AfroAmerican community with each passing generation. And if you say (which you haven't yet) that it doesn't matter whether it's increasing or not..... My question would be, IF...again IF....it actually is increasing what if 100 years from now HALF of the AfroAmerican population were homosexual? Would that be a problem, why or why not?

Part of me wonders....... Are these "independent women" actually having SEX with or EVEN ATTRACTED TO these so-called "wives"? And if not, should we even CALL them "wives" in our English translation of this custom? Also, if these other women are "bearing children" they certainly aren't getting pregnant from the "independent woman" who took them in marriage, so a man has to be involved some how..........where do the men who impregnate these women fit in in these relationships? The word "marriage" is an English word. The word "wife" is an English word. Perhaps we should look for more accurate terms to describe these complex relationships that are found outside of our culture rather than trying to force them to fit inside Westernized socially constructed boxes.

Troy Regardless of who's doing it today, clearly the popularity of injecting dye into the skin isn't something that originated with us. Historically speaking, the primary choice of skin alteration and decoration among African peoples was not tatooing but keloid scarring. 　 Chev Well, I listened to the video and one of them did say that he was a product of his environment. And rest assured, HE isn't the one controling his environment. Someone else....much smarter than him...is.

Chev I understand your point about people of color needing to take responsibility for their own behavior instead of using the excuse that they were simply "tricked" into indulging in alcohol by Caucasians; however in order for a person to be RESPONS-IBLE (response - able) they must be ABLE to adequately respond. Ignorance (lack of knowledge) often impairs your ability to properly respond to a given situation. Alcohol was unfamiiar to them and because of this they didn't know the dangers of consuming it nor did they initially know or understand the reasons they were being given it. Like handing a child poisoned candy.....how can we hold them responsible for accepting something they are too ignorant to understand is harmful to them? But Karma is something else. Look at how the Opiod Epidemic is destroying Caucasian communities all over North America and Europe today. 　 LOL. Yes, I do blame them! But why? Why would you "blame" a person who uses sex if that's their only means (so they think anyway) for achieving power and success in life? If a person is good at playing basketball and uses it to gain power and wealth, is that wrong? If a person is good at real-estate and uses those skills to gain power and wealth, is that wrong? And if not, why condemn a person who uses sex (for example a striper or prostitute) in order to secure wealth and power for themselves? Is the act of sex somehow worse than the act of basketball or selling property? 　 　 Pioneer, did you ever consider that it may not be 'strong sex drive' that is a cause of discrimination against AFroAmerican men, but that they oppressed Black women and could have controlled their sex drive but just chose not to, that caused them to be thrown down and into slavery? First you actually offered TWO considerations: 1 The oppression of Black women by Black men caused them to be thrown down and into slavery. 2. Black men choosing not to control their sex drives got them thrown down and into slavery. And no, honestly I haven't really considered either. It's very hard to prove history because neither one of us were around to verify the information but if you can provide PROOF or COMPELLING EVIDENCE that the situation Africans went through being enslaved and having much of their lands colonized by Caucasians was caused by their treatment of their own women AND/OR because they chose not to control their sex drive......I'll consider it. One question I have is if Black women's mistreatment was the crime itself, then why were Black women allowed to be mistreated (enslaved, colonized, ect....) as part of the punishment FOR the crime along with Black men? 　 　 You wouldn't have a problem with a female sex partner should she tell you that she wanted to have multiple sex partners in addition to you? I am involved with and have been involved with since my teens.....females who have had multiple sex partners besides me. I've met many females who I found attractive who either already had a boyfriend OR were completely single and doing their own thing and didn't want a relationship with anyone but I found them so attractive I was willing to be intimate with them anyway from time to time. And look at how many men are running around having sex with or TRYING to have sex with women who are already married or have boyfriends. As if a woman having multiple partners is really THAT big of a deal.