Pioneer1

Cynique Fortunately, there are other black men around who are not like you who, themselves, are secure, powerful, intelligent, and kind. Then maybe you should point them out to Mel, because she seemed to have had trouble finding one....lol. Delano In the day time I worked in financial services met and saw the heavy weights in the field. Saw Michael Milken on the elevator at Drexel Burnham, said hi to Reggie Lewis who was on his way to meet Michael Milken, was at a meet and greet with Max Chapman, and spoke with Ken Chenault, meet presidential candidate Michael Dukakis. Had a personal chat with Peter Lord about astrology. He is in the Family Stand and he wrote Touch for Paula Abdul. I hung with artists musicians and night people. Ohhh, you can remember all of that......but you can't remember when or where you got the rumors of Martin Luther King and Malcolm X allegedly slept with men after being challenged on it....lol. ((shakes head)) If you'd actually follow my posts and the conversation you'd realize that I too also use the term White man (singular) for the most part in referring to her ex-husband, and White men (plural) only occasionally. Mel You’re wrong for assuming the best man is a white man for everyone. A white man wasn’t the best man for my mom. But since you believe the white man is the best man - I’m going to step out of the argument you seem to be having with yourself. Mel, here are YOUR WORDS IN CONTEXT regarding your White ex: You tried to divert the focus from his race by claiming it wasn't his Whiteness that attracted you or made him the best but it was his qualities and kindness to you. However, the fact remains that in your own words after creating a way for the BEST MAN (not just for you but period because you didn't qualify it with those words) to come into your life, out of the billions of Black, Asian, Latino, and Indian men out there....a WHITE MAN popped up! If I'm moving to Buckhead but I'm only making $120,000 a year........ I'm going to ask a realtor to find the best home FOR ME...instead of the BEST HOME IN BUCKHEAD. Why? Because there's a difference between the best home and the best home for me. The focus is on ME and MY NEEDS, not on all of the homes in Buckhead. The BEST HOME in Buckhead might be a mansion! But the BEST HOME FOR ME would be a bungalow or a condo given my salary. You didn't place the focus on YOU and your needs by calling him the best, you placed the focus on all men and who ranks the best among them and you placed A White man at the top. Even if of the billions of men out there you place THAT White man at the top and behind him there are a million Black ones before you get to another White man...the fact remains that YOU feel that the best man is still a White man.

Loren (if you're reading this thread) Lol, I haven't met too many men (Black or White) who call themselves "Loren" but..... As is typical, you're saying all the "right" things to make people like and respect you. You're definately saying what Black women WANT to hear, and I wouldn't have expected you to say anything other than that. After all....that's how you were able to.......well.....never mind. But I'm curious as to why you as a White man want or atleast wanted "solidarity" with Native Americans? Chev What color/race was this school Principle?

Chev Guuuuuurl, I am NOT gonna go in circles with you on this one....lol. Now I've shown maps that clearly place Mt. Ararat in the Caucasus mountains but you're pulling out maps and writting paragraphs disputing this. What else can I say? As far as the original inhabitants of the Caucasus mountains NOT being White..... Black people have been on this planet for millions if not trillions (yes Troy I said trillions...lol) of years, so ofcourse the very first or original people in that region were Black. But for the past 6000 years or so the predominate race in that region has been White people known as Caucasians. The only large group of Black people known to have settled in the Caucasus mountains WITHIN the past 6,000 year time frame were the Colchians who are the descendants of those whom the Book of Enoch calls Angels or Watchers.

I didn't use the words "never been supportive". I said there is NO HISTORY of her being pro-Black and standing with us (in a pro-Black way) BEFORE this. Now if you can find me some evidence of her doing this then I'll recant my statement.

Mel CONTEXT is your friend, Black man! When I was creating my "THE BEST MAN"- he ain’t had no color!!! Just good character! I'm not illiterate, I can read and comprehend as well. You asked for the BEST MAN and you were sent a WHITE MAN. Therefore to you: best man = a White man. What did I get wrong? And Religion - I refused to allow my daughters to go black baptist or evangelical churches.  As long as you praised a White man as being the BEST man and the KINDEST man and held him high above all other men infront of your children....you already exposed them to religion. The religion of White Supremacy. .....one of the most powerful religions on the planet. I wonder how many black women, have denied themselves wonderful experiences and a life partner because they are waiting for these traits to appear in a black man. I'm sure during slavery very few of them did; because they didn't have much of a choice and these "wonderful experiences" were FORCED upon them. 　 　 Chev No, let's not look at the wording. It's like, you are attacking! IMO, you are missing the point here, @Mel Hopkins was married. This man married her and acknowledge her life, and this means that not only did she choose him, but he chose her! How beautiful. About as beautiful as Sally Hemmings being taken advantage of by Jefferson. I'm not attacking Mel...but I AM finger pointing. I'm pointing out the fact that her criticizms of Black men can't be trusted because of her previous relationship as well as the very words she's spoken in this thread. She sees Black men as "less than" the ideal man...which is a White man, by her own admission. 　 　 That was her husband!!! The two of them deserve an opportunity to work this out without being attacked for issues that ALL OF US--THE WHOLE WORLD HAS TO DEAL WITH.  Work "what" out? She's not confused, and neither am I. She knows exactly how she feels and why she feels this way and she's articulated it clearly. First you defend Black men who are gay, then you defend Black women who call White men better than Black men. Do you not see how both of these groups are counter-productive to the progress of Black society because their positions mean the destruction of the Black family? But you think that we, Black women should receive scrutiny from Black men who feel they have the 'masculinity' and right to 'check' Black women for wearing spandex, and blonde hiar and such. Spandex is not a problem....blonde hair is. @Pioneer1 Isn't that what you are doing? It is as if you are trying to make Mel's statement the blueprint for what you believe others have done. To answer your first question..NO. I'm actually taking Mel at her word and judging her by her own statements. She SAID a White man is the best man, why are you ignoring this or defending it? To answer your second question...YES. I've heard some of her statements echoed by other Black women who have attempted to justify their love for White men and hatred for Black men which is why I said those who make statements like this can't be trusted. I'm not saying this about Mel, but many of these women actually DO hate Black men so much they would join the KKK and help White men harm Black men if given the opportunity. They just make up excuses to justify it. They'll complain about how Black men treated them but ignore how a White men treated them 10 times worse. 　 Del I believe Mel said that both implicitly and explicitly. That he was the best Man for her Lol..... Man, you have a hard time articulating and expressing YOUR OWN thoughts, now how in the world are you going to speak for Mel and what she meant? Cynique When it comes to the appeal of white men, "power is a great aphrodisiac". Intelligence is sexy. What's even more appealing is a powerful white man who is secure enough to be a kind person. if this type is appreciative of a black woman, this erases a multitude of sins In other words, in your opinon White men are powerful and that makes them sexy. You're not denying the love and attraction toward White men....you're just attempting to JUSTIFY it. So as far as you're concerned all a Black woman needs to do is find one "kind enough" and "appreciative enough" for her to give herself to.....lol. Troy However, i dont think most people need the NOI and their restrictions. I'm not sure if some or most need the NOI's restrictiveness but judging by the way so many of our people are homeless, hooked on drugs and alcohol, in prison, and living a life of crime and begging....many of them could use the strict rules of the Nation of Islam to help them improve their lives. Others don't need them. It's about what works for the individual. You act as if strict rules are the worse thing a person can go through. Little children HATE the rules their parents place on them because they aren't wise enough to know how important they are. Sometimes our people act like little children who don't want to be told what to do....but then can't figure out why they run into so much trouble when they do what they " feels like doin' ". In that regard, @Mel Hopkins and @Delanomore evolved that we are. They're not "evolved", because that means transitioning to a higher state of being. They are just unabashed about their love for Caucasians.....which makes them no worse and certainly no better. I don't have a problem with people finding Caucasians attractive or even having sex with them, it's FALLING IN LOVE with them and calling them THE BEST and KINDEST that I take issue with because it makes them vulnerable to being used against our people. There have been many White people who've helped me out in many things...but I'm not going to call them or even one of them "the best" simply because I liked them or they helped me. Look at Kanye West's behavior as a great example of what happens when a Black person allows themselves to "fall inlove" or be so emotionally taken by a White person that they lose control of themselves.

Too oftern AfroAmericans project or super-impose their PERSONAL situations and experiences onto society at large. Now I don't know this man to determine how good or bad he his BUT: As a writer who knows the power of words you should know that when you point at a White man and say he is THE BEST MAN.....that is far different than saying he is the best man FOR ME. When you say he is THE best man....that pretty much makes him better than everyone else in your opinion despite how good he may be for others. Again....White Supremacy by default since the man who is epitomized as THE BEST is a White man.

Mel What are the facts? Seriously, I missed the facts.  Well ONE fact is you said: This statement says a number of things: 1. You chose him.....suggesting you actually went out looking for a White man. 2. You praise the strength of this White man....but White men who are strong have been known to use this strengh to brutalize and murder people of color around the planet. 3. You call him the kindest man you know....which means of all the thousands and perhaps millions of men you've come across in your life, that particular White man beat them all in terms of kindness. Now let's look at your wording........... You didn't say: "He treated ME kinder than any other man that I know" -Because if you had said this, I wouldn't have had a problem with that statement. You said, "He WAS THE kindest man you know" Which suggests you know about the kindness and good deeds about all of the other men you know and have evaluated them and found them lacking in compared to this one who happens to be a White man. You made HIM the epitome of kindness without really knowing how kind other men that you know are. In your mind the bar or standard has been raised to the level of this White man so by default no Black man can compare. Not that you agree with it.....but do you atleast UNDERSTAND my point? Speaking of Sandra Bland and the police...... Did you know that the same White police officers in New York who shoved that broken plunger up Abner Louima's ass back in the 90s was married to a Black woman? It doesn't matter how much love ONE White man has for ONE Black woman, even that one White man can "snap" and turn into a vicious racist when it comes to a Black person who is not his object of affection. Even during slavery there were violent racist Whites whom had favor and bestowed love on PARTICULAR slaves that they liked....but it didn't make them any less racist. History is FULL of examples of White people we THOUGHT were cool and kind turning around and committing heinous acts or bigotry. My point is, we can't let individual interests and "falling in love" cloud our judgement to the point that we project our own individual experiences on the entire reality of race relations. 　 　 My man is not my father - and I’m not his mother. Please don’t creep me out here. Well you can do you. I've DEMANDED (as only a "controling" Black man can do) most of my girlfriends call me "daddy" atleast once a week....lol.

I echo your sentiments. I wonder what happened to Tavis Smiley. Haven't been hearing much for him since the accusations and dismissal.

You're saying that a man who defends you unconditionally despite your behavior is "acting right". What if we said that to parents? That they should defend their children unconditionally not criticizing their behavior or expecting any responsibility from them? What if a parent just defended the dress, speech, and behavior of their child unconditionally and went to school beating up the teachers everytime that child had poor grades or fighting the neighbors everytime that child does something destructive to their property..... What type of adult do you think that parent would produce when the child grows up....IF they grow up?

Troy Ofcourse I know it's not Black owned NOW, but for it's first 20-30 years of history it was. And again it showed the world what we were capable of when we put our minds to it and stop begging for acceptance from outside of ourselves. I'm not hard on Monique, I just think she's a little presumtuous to start running to the Black community for support when she doesn't have a history of being pro-Black and standing with u BEFORE her troubles. How would you feel about a cousin whom you knew well but never gave you anything, never came by to visit you, never called you, pretty much treated you like a stranger but then all of a sudden showed up at your door one day with his suit cases talking about, "What up Cuz....I need a place to stay. And uhhhh....since we family......so you need to show some family values and point me to my room!" If you expect support, a report must be first buit into the relationship so that trust and mutual respect is established.

Mel I'm not condemning the good things you're saying about your ex. I'm not you and haven't walked in your shoes or know what you've gone through to judge your activities. I'm just looking at the facts. You can provide all of the justification you like but the fact remains that the man you hold as ideal above all or most other men you've ever met is a White man. And many other women of color have done the same.....their their praise and love and reverence of White men have been used to destroy entire communities and kingdoms which is why we must be careful with these thoughts. There are White people I like and have good things to say about, but I've never been inlove with any White person nor do I hold any White person as the best (kindest, nicest, loveliest, smartest, ect...) in anything because that's too much like being supreme in that aspect. 　 Troy Trust and mistrust are a matter of personal opinions, so as far as I'M CONCERNED Mel's criticizms of Black men can't be trusted for the above stated reasons. But others may not care how she feels about White men (or atleas one White man) and think her criticizms are fully legitimate and justified. But as far as you or even Cynique..... I haven't heard you all mention anything in your backgrounds like falling involve with a White man/woman that I believe would cloud your judgement or establish ulterior motives that would cause you to subconsciously hate or think less of AfroAmerican men/women. As far as Ali and the Nation of Islam..... As I told Cynique.....I don't defend organized religions but I do look at RESULTS. If a particular organization or institution produces POSITIVE RESULTS then I'm going to support those results. Say what you want to about misogyny and anachronism but the FACTS are when those women stood up and when you look at most of the MGT in the Nation of Islam....the RESULTS are undeniable. The vast majority of them tend to be beautiful, nice, gentle, and respectful......and get plenty of respect from the men not only in their mosques but from the Black communit in general and even around the world. Women in the Nation of Islam are NOT treated like other AfroAmerican women even by non-Muslim Black men. I know a lot of men who won't even cuss or smoke around them. So again, say what you will about the methods.....but the RESULTS are what I'm looking at.

Chev Here's a map of the Caucasus mountains. Right towards the southern end of them you'll find Mt. Ararat. -Mt. Ararat IS IN the Caucasus mountains at the lower end. -The actual Mt. Olympus IS NOT in the Caucasus mountains but it was NAMED after the "mythological" Mt. Olympus by Caucasian tribes before arriving there. -What was it called before then? I don't know. More importantly; If you believe that the mythical story of NOah and his sons migrated down from the Caucasus, how does this tie into the story of Noah and his sons migrating down from MT ARARAT? If you look at Mt. Ararat it's on the southern end of the Caucasus mountain range and just like the Biblical myth of Noah and his sons coming down the mountain and scattering in different directions to repopulate the Earth----- -the Caucasians in reality came down those same mountains and scattered in different directions to take over the original Black kingdoms. You're right, the Trojan war was about displacing the original Black populations of Greece, Turkey and Anatolia.

Ali played himself in that video clip. He was a straight embarrassment. That's a matter of opinion. Just like you, some of the things he said I agreed with.....other things I didn't. I take him as an individual and his words in isolation. Although I didn't agree with him calling Africans savages, instead being embarassed I was rather PROUD that a Black man would challenge the moral hypocrisy and questionable ethics of a White man on national television and her pretty much made a laughing stock of him on his own show....lol. 　 　 te man who to this day still loves this dark-skinned kinky-hair black woman and the ground she walks on. It's funny how you call him "French/German" as if that makes any difference. French and German are cultures/nationaities and have NOTHING to do with that man's genetics. You may as well have said he's Baptist/Catholic for what it's worth, lol. Caucasian is Caucasian regardless of the language spoken or the culture practiced. And he ain’t soft like you like to think about white men. You can’t roll with me and be soft. I never said that White men as a whole were "soft". I personally believe that as a collective African men BY NATURE are more masculine but there are a lot of factors involved like diet, environment, nurturing, ect... Hell in some ways (namely intellectually and emotionally) White American men are more masculine tan AfroAmerican men today. He would kick anyone’s ass who would dare to step to me , his black stepdaughter (yes he stepped up and raised her like his own) and African/european descent daughters... no matter what they or I wear. And trust, no one dictates what we wear or what we do ... and he’d still defend and protect us for exercising our rights. But then again he’s white in America so maybe that’s privilege lol. Ohhh, so THIS explains your strange belief that Black women should be loved, served, and protected unconditionally without taking any responsibility for their behavior. I see the "bar" was raised pretty high.....lol. Even though we’re no longer married I considered myself lucky for choosing this strong white man as partner. He is the kindest man I know. So you're telling me that of all the men you've met in your family. Of all the men you've met growing up in Brooklyn. And from your travels around the nation and probably the world as a reporter you're going to sit up here and tell me that the kindest man you ever met just HAPPENED to be a White man??? But you want to accuse Ali of being "indoctrinated" with White Supremacy while you place a White man on top above all other men as being "supreme" in kindness....the very definition of White Supremacy. Ironically, he never tried to control me or the girls...but I guess there was no need. Ofcourse he didn't need to because most AfroAmerican girls are ALREADY conditioned to worship and revere White men through the image of a White "Jesus" they grow up with in the church. While Black man often get frustrated at not being able to influence the women in their family and often turn to violence to get their way out of frustration....because of this previous "Jesus" indoctrination all many White man have to do is just SHOW UP and because the ground has already been laid and cultivated for his worship in her mind she'll automatically fall in line and obey him. So no, I didn’t choose white supremacy; I chose freedom -and what resulted is a white man who worships us black women...daughters of Africa, with all the respect due us. Yeah.... Where was THAT type of White man when sisters like Sandra Bland and Renish McBride needed them for protection from the "other" White men who killed them? Listen, that was a beautiful story and maybe one day I'll see it on the Lifetime channel, however none of what you said dismisses what I said previously about your motives for criticizing Black men being suspect and untrustworthy. Infact it proves it. -By your own admission you considered yourself fortunate (good luck, blessed, highly favored) to meet a strong White man whom you felt protected you. -By your own admission you praise the strength of this White man. -By your own admission you praise the kindness of this White man and place him above all other men. Can you not see how your mind......despite the excuses you're using to justify it...has been indoctrinated with White supremacy? Hell, even a slave (I'm not calling you one) can justify his slavery by saying his master was kind to him, gave him food, and kept him occupied with doing work he enjoyed.....but the fact remains he was STILL A SLAVE. Excuses and justifications don't eliminate facts. This is why I say that your MOTIVES can't be trusted when it comes to your criticizms of Ali or any other Black man despite the legitimacy of your claims. Because despite all of this talk about "female empowerment", I recognize that behind it stands a strong subconscious love and worship of White men as the "ideal man". So every Black man you come across will be judged by this standard and ultimately considered "less than" by comparison.

Nubian Well if that's what he meant then that's what he should have said, lol. I would have agreed, because I too was disappointed at Motown leaving My-town (Detroit) and moving to California where I think it lost much of it's flavor by leaving it's Black urban base and going "Hollywood". Never the less, you can't dismiss the powerful impact Motown had on it's first 20-25 years bringing the world people like Diana Ross, The Temptations, and Marvin Gaye. It showed the world and most importantly Black America what we can do when we make up our minds to control our OWN talents instead of staying on the plantation begging "massa" for justice. I also agree with you but forgot to say until you brought it up that yes.....one of the reasons more Black people didn't stand with Monique was because she wasn't standing with them. She didn't start talking Black unity until she got HER "n*ggger wake up call" and then all of a sudden she wants to act like Queen Nzinga and wage war against the industry, lol.

1. I'm not a defender of Islam. I'm not a defender of ANY organized religion.....but I recognize truth where ever it is found whether in religion, philosophy, or personal observation. 2. I'm not a defender of Muhammad Ali's comments or behavior and how he talked about other Black people, called them gorillas in Manila, or called Africans savage. That video was offered as a response to Mel's suggesting that a man who is focused on or criticizes a woman's appearance was some how weak or neglectful in his duties. I'm at work right now but if I had time I could probably dig up a clip of Malcolm X (whom you both had positive things to say about) criticizing the dress of Black women as well.

Motown isn't as big as it was but it's STILL in existence as an institution and it was started in the late 50s....over 60 years ago. Man, if you have drawers over 60 years old, that Motown example ain't the ONLY thing that's "terrible". Better go to Target or TJ Maxx this weekend and "treat" yourself son. See if you can get some fresh underwear on one of those post-Valentine's Day sales...lol.

Troy Given your conversation with Chevdove about the Bible I figured you must be a Christian or some pioneerized version of one. I was curious to know which parts you believed. And this statement supports my previous post about you being unwilling or incapable of understanding my positions on history and religion. You keep trying to put me in a box instead of taking my statements as they are. Mel I always thought Ali was a wise man - but in this clip, it is clear, he’s fully indocrinated as a white supremacist. Damn. Mel you're a smart woman who says many things I agree with but honestly, is a woman such as yourself with a HISTORY of falling inlove with and marrying White men even qualified to accuse Muhammad Ali or any other Black man of being "indoctrinated with White supremacy" ??? You chose to fall inlove with and commit yourself to the very AGENT of White Supremacy itself; so your motives for criticism of Black men like Ali can't be trusted.

Chev A quick aside.... You're right that the Mt. Olympus of TODAY is in Greece but it was named AFTER the "mythological" Mt. Olympus that was part of the ancient Greek tribal legends before they actually arrived in Greece. In other words, they already had a Mt. Olympus as part of their myth as they were leaving the Caucasus and traveling west towards Greece and later on after settling there they NAMED that mountain range Olympus just like they named the land "Greece" after displacing the original Black residents.

Black people need to stop crying over and begging for crumbs and we need to build more of OUR OWN institutions where WE can control what we do and how much money we make. This is one of the reason I have so much respect for Berry Gordy and Motown. When the world didn't want to recognize Black talent or pay it for what it was worth, Berry said: "Fuck you....we're pack up our shit, move out, and do our OWN thing" And next thing you know the WORLD was (and still is) rocking to the Motown sound! When you're always hanging out at other people's houses and looking for meals you can't get mad and throw a fit everytime you feel they don't put enough sugar in your Kool Aid.

Chev Most of the gods of Greek and Roman mythology were actually the Black people from Egypt who went up to the Caucasus mountains to give Caucasians civilization. Jupiter is just the Roman version of Zeus which was Greek. Both are myths and they both come from the same source....the Caucasus mountains. Just like Zeus/Jupiter had two other brothers (Posiedon and Hades).....Japheth had two other brothers (Ham and Shem) And just like the Noah myth talks about how Noah and his children came down from Mt. Ararat (Caucasus Mountains); in Greece these Black people were known as "Titans" or the Olden gods who dwelt on "Mt. Olympus" which is just another way of telling you the Caucasus mountain.

Troy I'm not sure what to tell you because after all I've said in this thread, for you to still ask me if I believed in the story of Adam and Eve makes me wonder if you're actually reading what I type or are even capable of understand what I've typed. What good is giving you an answer that you can't understand? Mel Nagging about another’s appearance, which gay men have turned into an art form, is a weak and ineffective showing of black masculinity. In fact, when I was growing up in Brooklyn - dudes called that a "bitch" move. Really? If a man who tells his wife or woman how he wishes for her to dress in public is acting like a bitch, I pity the punk who is too scared to even do THAT and just keeps quiet....lol. But I would have loved to see one of those "dudes" you speak of walk up to Muhammad Ali and tell HIM that he's making a bitch move for critizing the way some women dress....lol.

Troy how can Black people have been around for billions of years when the planet has been capable of supporting human life for far less time? This is theory, not necessarily proven fact. We must remember that just like a few centuries ago the West believed that man was ONLY 6,000 years old.....every generation of Western scientists seem to find more evidence of man being much older than previously believed. Do you believe Black people are extraterrestrial? Actually the opposite..... I believe Black people not only come from this planet but are probably the most adapt for it. How many Black people need sunscreen or shades to "protect" themselves from nature?

Indeed...... It IS sad if a member of the opposite sex has to pull a Black woman to the side and explain to her that putting blonde highlights in her hair and wearing worn-out spandex and flip flops (especially when you're 320 lbs) is an inappropriate look for the workplace. You'd think another Black woman would pull her to the side and tell her this; rather than allowing her to make a public fool of herself so that SHE can look good by comparison. But that's how many of our people do eachother.

Troy it is if they claim to be a Christian Mormons claim to be Christian but many of them practice polygamy. Infact, many of the earlier Christians of Africa and Asia continued to practice polygamy even after converting because there's nothing in the Christian scriptures themselves that actually forbid or contradict having multiple spouses. Infact, if the European colonizers hadn't FORCED them to stop.....most African and Asian Christians would STILL be practicing polygamy. @Chevdove Chev Would you believe it if I told you that the Jupiter deity of Roman mythology was the same being as Japheth (son of Noah) of the Old Testament?

Troy i was just asking a question lol! Maybe you believe Adam lived a million years ago. Besides you and Chevdove are talking over my head with this biblical stuff. Your question got such a strong reaction from me because after all I've said about this subject....for someone to STILL ask me whether or not I take the story literally makes it seem as if I was wasting my time explaining my thoughts. But to answer your question, NO I don't take the story literally. Again, I believe it's a MYTH that symbolizes a deeper truth about the origins of Caucasians....like many other myths such as the story of Noah's Ark. To make my beliefs clear: Blacks = billions of years old or older Caucasians (or "White people" if you prefer) = around 6,000 years old Native Americans, East Asians, ect = I have no idea ....I hope this provides more clarification.