Pioneer1

Del It's like when I supported you Cynique and Troy gave me stick. So i will support Troy and Cynique, and we'll see what happens. Instead of having a "supporting season" when you support CERTAIN people at CERTAIN times.....why not just support the TRUTH regardless of who's mouth it comes out of? I'm not asking you to take the side of the men simply because you're a man. Just treat everyone EQUALLY and support or criticize everyone on a fair basis instead of deciding to stick up for Pioneer for a month or two then change your mind and decide to go against me the next few months to see how that turns out.....lol. What do you think I should think? I think you should think CLEARLY. Be consistent to avoid confusion and mistrust by others Thanks Pioneer. I thought i was deciding based o the merits of the argument not the genitalia of the person. Not when you condemn the men on the forum because they WON'T condemn other men who engage in sexual activities that you disapprove of or think is predatory. You specifically called out the men on this forum because they didn't agree with you and the women over the alleged behavior of Elijah Muhammad.

Not sure how much you've learned about those of us on this site, but unless you've learned "all about".....or atleast ENOUGH about....Martin Luther King, you shouldn't be spreading false rumors about him or his sexuality.

Will you end the discussion unable (or unwilling) to admit that you have absolutely NO evidence to support your claims that The Reverend Doctor was an adulterous homosexual?

Girl you KNOW how Black folks tend to argue and fight among eachother....lol. You should be used to that by now. Infact, Neely Fuller Jr. says that because Black folks tend to argue and fight with eachother so much, the best thing to do is to STAY AWAY from eachother until we have a definite constructive project that we can work with eachother on. I used to shake my head at it, and still do at times. But I also look at the arguing and fighting as a sign of our strength both mental and physical. Kind of like The Dozens that boys used to play (and still do in many communities) with eachother at school or on the street. Where you insult the other to test them and see how much they can take before breaking down crying, running away, or try to fight in anger of losing a verbal match. The key is to remember this is online and not to be too sensitive. Unless someone is making threats against you or talking about your direct family, you let it roll off and keep pushing. I would prefer Black unity, but sometimes we have to work out the "kinks" among ourselves before that unity can take place. I would rather we argue with eachother than ignore eachother and retreat to our own little circles of unanimous agreement where it becomes nothing but an opera house full of multiple echo-chambers.

Troy You asked Del: "you've been throwing around quotes with reckless abandon. What you YOU believe. Do you also believe the virgin mary gave birth to Jesus the Christ? Instead of answering, he told Chevdove: Just being supportive of Chevdove. My beliefs have no bearing in regards to the two quotes. Lol....... That pretty much answers your question and sums up his role these past few weeks. Not having any clear definite opinions of his own on anything. Just unconditionally throwing his support behind the women regardless of the positions they take.....even if they take positions that are against him.

Troy and Chev (but obviously anyone can respond) You both say that 18 is too young for sexual activity but growing up many of the males and females I knew were having sex on a regular basis...some even produced children at 18 and 19, and many of them that I still know of today for the most part have turned out to be just as fine as those who were reportedly virgins and didn't engage in sexual activity. Outside of the troubles that came with actually having children they weren't ready to support, the sexual activity itself didn't seem to make much of a difference in their success or failures of life. Two questions I have is: 1. Is it that 18 and 19 are too young for sexual activity OR is it that THIS SOCIETY ISN'T PROPERLY PREPARING 18 and 19 year olds mentally and socially for what nature has designed them to do at that age? Troy you mentioned that sex at 18 has less to do with love or commitment and more to do with recreation....and I agree, but I don't see that as necessarily a BAD thing. If young people were PROPERLY educated on pregnancy and STDs instead of having the reality hidden from them to the point that they can only learn through "trial and error".....perhaps recreational sex would be seen as just another part of celebrating their newness at adulthood like responsible drinking or getting the right to vote. 2. More importantly in my opinion, WHERE are we as AfroAmericans getting our values and opinions about the appropriateness of sexual expression from? In other words are WE deciding our morals and values for ourselves, or are we getting them from Caucasians and accepting THEIR ever changing moral standards as the epitome? One of the problems I have with Del calling an older male who may have used his position of power to get sex from younger females a "predator" is that: a) it not only assumes that the females he allegedly slept with didn't want sex themselves (as if females don't want sex) b) it assumes that they didn't have an agenda of their own by sleeping with a man of power and authority c) it also slaps the face of centuries if not millenia of African traditions where males of authority and high achievement were REWARDED with sex from the females of their choice. For centuries this was seen as a GOOD thing and not only was permitted but in many cases encouraged, until someone (and that someone was not God) told us it was bad. Who decided that what our ancestors did was bad, and where did THEY (those who made that decision) get the authority to condemn others from?

Delano I don't I was talking about you position. No, that is YOUR position. YOU just said: That is a DIRECT QUOTE from you. My question is why do you feel that prison rape is bad (and I agree) but "preacher rape" is okay???? Are you Catholic and are now....after condemning the NOI....are trying to justify those pedophile priests in the Catholic church, or something? Trying to see where you're going with this......

Hello Deborah Turner-Bey I have a couple questions 1. Your last name is Bey, are you part of or were you born into the Moorish Science Temple? 2. And do you have atleast 3 first hand experiences of whom you call the Cosmic Mother actually protecting you from White Supremacy that you can share with us? These aren't challenges, but sincere questions.

Delano My saying Elijah Muhammed raped teen age girls didn't diminish your opinion of him, nor Troy. Troy can speak for himself but no.....it didn't. Because I don't believe it's true that he did. But when you put a statement that derogatory and inflammatory out in public where thousands have access to it...out of that number MANY WILL believe it. Thus, a certain amount of damage is done. If you don't know the FACTS, it's best not to put out derogatory information. Especially if you've repeatedly been asked to prove or atleast provide evidence for yet failed to do. A question is not an accusation, nor os a questiin a statement. So unless you want to fight with gramma. Yiu dont jave a case, unlwss we were in court. Yiu may want to read or reread the four different types of sentences. Man, ain't nobody trying to 'fight with grandma"...lol You made 2 derogatory claims inside your question. You claimed that King had affairs and you claimed that he slept with men and these claims (that you were unable to prove or even substantiate) were PART of the question. It's like going over a man's house on Thanksgiving, sitting down to the dinner table, and casually asking him infront of his wife and family: "So, are you still banging that b*tch over on Grand River Ave. or have you found another one????" You've just implicated him as an adulterer and demeaned him infront of his family INSIDE the question you asked him. Then why use an example as if rape and infidelity are equivalent. ????? Who said they were? I don't think they are, although they ARE part of the same category of IMMORALITY. Just like assault isn't equivalent to murder but both fall under the category of CRIME. Its using hyperbole in a way that is an attempt to undermine my position. No, it's called being ANALYTICAL and keeping things within proper perspective to keep you from clouding up the argument which is what you're TRYING to do. Thou shalt not confused MORALS, with LAWS, or LAWS with ETHICS. They are 3 separate categories.

????? Why do you think a preacher raping someone is ok?

Delano No but you do. And I'm not the only one. It's COMMONLY UNDERSTOOD that accusing a married (and in most cases a girlfriend/boyfriend) individual of having an affair is harmful to their public reputation. Also, in many if not most circles accusing a heterosexual of homosexual behavior is also harmful to their reputation....especially in religious circles. I have no idea what you mean. I mean that harmful accusations consist of more than just whether or not you INTENDED to cause harm. Even if you didn't INTEND to cause harm, the CONTENT of what you said may still be very harmful. Rape is an act that can result in jail time. In our culture an affair doesn't have the same penalties. True, but it can still ruin a person's reputation! No..in the United States adultery is not ILLEGAL, but it is still considered by most IMMORAL and UNETHICAL by most. Except for many VERY wealthy people who don't take marriage seriously anyway and routinely swap wives and engage in all manner of sexual behavior....lol.

I've read Chev's original post over and over again and still don't have a very clear understanding of her and Troy's issue, but let me say this..... As I've said on many occasions, having frequented many websites I've noticed that many women don't like the atmosphere of a website unless it is: a) Moderated mostly by women or b) Moderated by a male who is heavily infuenced by women who can pull on his arm and point to who they don't like or feel are offensive and get them punished or banned. Infact, what I've noticed a LOT is that many websites have a "gorilla harem" type of atmosphere where there is one dominate male moderator and a bunch of females under him...sometimes they are moderators and other times they are just well respected members who are very sweet to him alone and often times will use him to strike out at anyone on the forum they don't like. I'm not sure if it's feeling of security or what but most women like HEAVILY moderated websites. Troy pretty much does what an Administrator and moderator SHOULD do in my opinon which is allow people to express themelves and weed out trolls. I briefly operated a message board years ago and I even allowed what are now considered "trolls" to post.....lol. The only time I banned people or took down posts was if they made threats to harm people or exposed personal information against another poster's will. But I guess things are different today where many sites are being flagged if too much racist, sexist, or anti-homosexual content is posted. But back to Chevdove's issue........ From my experience dealing with people and understanding human psychology, there may also be something else that COULD be an issue. Troy's open idenity as Administrator Having seen people come and go on this site and others, I've noticed that even if a moderator doesn't say it or even imply it....often times when people get into a disagreement or even personal conflict with the moderator of a site their first instinct is to get frustrated and LEAVE. They just assume that they have no chance of "making it" on that site if the head person is against them Even in real life I've noticed this. On jobs I've seen people get into conflict with other employees and stay on for months or even years until they either work things out or just stay out of eachother's way and keep on pushing. But if they get into some sort of conflict with a manager....even if the manager doesn't talk about firing them NOR even gives them a hard time....most of the time they start looking for another job and leave. I've been a manager at some jobs and I've had a couple people just walk out or give their 2 week notice with just the SLIGHTEST criticism! When I ask another employee what happened they tell me they THOUGHT I was going to fire them so they just bounced. I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed this at work. When you're a person of authority your very POSITION holds weight and can sometimes put people on alert or make the nervous that you may mete out some sort or punishment with the slightest provocation even if you intend nothing of the sort. I've always taken the position of UNLESS a manager (or in the case of a website- the moderator) explicitly says or implies that they will ban me or start removing my posts, if I disagree with them I will continue my disagreements but in a respectful way acknowledging their position. Now this MAY NOT be an issue in this instance, but I figured it's a good point to bring up since the theme of this thread seems to be somewhat related and I've seen it quite a bit.

Troy He said i you do something with another dude and one of you bust a nut (ejaculate) then you are both gay. What if it's FORCED, as in the case of many situations in prison? Perhaps the PITCHER may be gay and be enjoying it enough to skeet, but that doesn't necessarily mean the CATCHER is a willing accomplice! Believe it or not.....as it may come as a surprise to you and others.....I don't have a major problem with a man putting on a dress and wig if he's just acting. Even if he's doing it for money. I have a problem with him being FORCED to do it by Caucasians for a hidden agenda or some ulterior motive of promoting femininity and sexual confusion among African peoples.

People say that the Christmas/New Years time is one of the most depressing times of the year. I'm not sure about that one but I've noticed for years that it is certainly the most FRUSTRATING time of the year for most people because the traveling problems, the financial problems from having to buy so many gifts and worry about the prices and debt incurred, as well as so many old wounds being resurrected when families who live miles apart get back together again.

As usual, the media only tells you HALF the story.....if that. What they left out was that this Caucasian woman Kareem was accused of assaulting started calling him and some other people he was with "n*gger, n*gger, n*gger and n*gger lovers" and kept chanting it and yelling it and even followed them up to their hotel room chanting it and even assaulted one of his friends. Finally, he....like most young men.....got tired of the crap and decided to go off on her. https://clutchpoints.com/chiefs-news-what-woman-called-kareem-hunt-to-prompt-him-to-shove-kick-her-via-sources/ https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2780901-911-call-from-alleged-violent-dispute-involving-kareem-hunt-released She PROVOKED him. There is a such thing as "fighting words" in common American law. You shouldn't to go around calling people derogatory names and slurs to their face and following them around and NOT expect any sort of consequence.

Troy yes it appears there us indeed a great if pressure for acceptance of homosexuality. Is this a bad thing? While it is not my life style, is what two consenting adults do really our business? It depends. To use Delano's argument in another thread, it depends on the INTENT of those pressuring for it's acceptance. If the intent is to make the public more tolerant and accepting of those who are born a certain way and can't help themselves.....I'd say NO...it's not a bad thing. However if the intent to promote homosexuality is to INCREASE homosexuality and homosexual activity among a targeted population for the purposes of: 1. Causing CONFUSION among that targeted group in order to cause chaos and fighting between them and 2. LIMITING and REDUCING the population of that group by encoraging more same sex sexual activity and discouraging heterosexual activity and thus decreasing the reproduction rate. ....then I'd have to say YES, it is a bad thing. Infact, it's a form of "positive" genocide where instead of killing those who are already born you just prevent them from being born in the first place. 　 Chev You make a great point that there is a difference between homosexuality and homosexual ACTIVITY. Two men can kiss eachother on the mouth. That may be considered homosexal ACTIVITY....however if they're both actors and getting PAID to do it then it's not homosexuality. It's just two men acting out a role or going through the motions without any sexual feelings behind it. Women from East Asia walk around all the time holding hands but that doesn't mean they are lesbians, it's just part of their culture. For it to be actual homosexuality there must be the homosexual feelings or intent behind it. Tariq Nasheed and Harlem Elder weigh in on the Kevin Hart controversy and Tariq goes into how it's part of a greater plan to cause sexual confusion among people of color:

Cynique In the future i will curb my true cynical self and not name-call. That's the best i can do. Sheeeeyit.....I don't think you can even do THAT much. Infact, I don't think you can help yourself.....lol. Troy For example, I'd say things to Pioneer in a way that I would not with you -- simply because he is another dude with amazingly thick skin 🙂 Either that; or I don't always know when I'm actually being insulted....lol.

Delano Even if you thought homosexual activity was okay behavior to accuse a Christian and Muslim minister of......did you think accusing King of having affairs outside of his marriage wasn't an insult or malicious attack against the man's character? It has to be MORE than only about intent, but also CONTENT. Going back to Troy's point, if someone claims you are a rapist it doesn't matter if the person making that claim thinks that rape is OK.....it's commonly understood in public that rape is wrong and if they KNOW it's considered wrong in pubic and still make that claim about you then it would still be SLANDEROUS because it's ruining your PUBLIC reputation. Now come in Del...... You know I'm not the smartest man in the word, what does "split it with you" mean? Are you half way apologizing? Are you half way recanting your statement? Are you half way admitting an error? What? Talk PLAINLY with those of a more simple mind, lol.

Cynique Me, and my 2 daughters among many others. (1) puberty: the period during which adolescents reach sexual maturity and become capable of reproduction: (2) puberty: In humans, puberty occurs at the onset of adolescence, between the ages of about 11 and 14 in girls and 13 and 16 in boys. Like I said, COMPREHENSION isn't your strong point.....lol. That definition.....which looks to be based on Caucasian children and their average development...claims that puberty OCCURS AT THE ONSET...between the ages of 11-14 for girls. It didn't say it ENDED. It BEGINS or OCCURS between those ages; and from that age forward girls continue to develop until around 17-20 when they are usually physically mature. The subject under discussion was child predators. That's the context in which you made your statement. Above the age of puberty does not exempt teen-aged minors from being preyed on by these molesters. Correction- YOU, DEL, AND MEL are focused on child predators. That's not MY focus, nor was it the original subject of the thread. The original subject was Malik Shabazz's debate with Evie Rich and MY focus was my defense (and continual defense I don't give a damn what YOU THREE say about him ) of the HONORABLE Elijah Muhammad. Troy You obviously missed my statement that I do not think ANYONE should get married before 21 today. Although I think 18 or 19 is a good age to start having sex, for something as serious as MARRIAGE I'd push the age even higher than 21! I don't see why anyone who lives in THIS society where males and females have so much access to eachother would limit themselves and tie themselves down in their 20s. It makes no sense because you pretty much know that over 70% of the marriages are going to end in divorce (or murder) by the time they are 30 because they no longer love eachother and have found someone else. Dr. Frances Cress Welsing who was a noted AfroAmerican psychologist actually said she didn't think AfroAmericans should get married and have children UNTIL they were in their 30s! As far as what you and Mel are discussing......... She seems to be confusing LEGALITY with MORALITY. In otherwords, because the MODERN LEGISLATION comes up with some arbitrary age for sexual activity or adulthood.....that makes it right or wrong in her book. The LAW decides what's "right" or "wrong" for her. The problem with this type of thinking is if we use that standard...going back 200 years ago teaching a Black person how to read would be WRONG and she'd be arguing just as hard against it simply because the LAW says it is wrong. This is why I keep saying AfroAmericans need our own moral and ethical code that we can all agree on and RARELY CHANGES in order to provide stability and avoid arguments like this. In most other cultures....whether we agreee with it or not...atleast both the men and women are on the same page and agree when it's time for marriage and there is very little arguing and accusations among them. 　 　 　 Chev But I think that as a woman, especially due to being in a position where a man is 'sweet talking' and trying to take it to that next levely, we woman see from another point-of-view'. I think it may be, as the saying goes, 'men are from mars and women are from venus'. As a woman, I know that a lot of girls are tricked into going to the next level and have been railroaded, but men perhaps here these stories and still think and believe the man's view in that the girl consented. Come on now Chev. Are we supposed to believe that women DO NOT like sex or want it? In most of my experiences and observations if a woman LET'S a man "sweet talk" her into having sex, it's because she wanted him in the first place and ALLOWED him into her heart. Perhaps what you're calling a woman being tricked is REALLY a woman lowering her defenses for a man she actually finds attractive enough to sleep with. I know too, that many Black women have been hurt and abandoned. And, I believe for this reason, many of them have turned to other ways to gain that acknowledgement that they so deserve. This government has done so much damage to us. They have encouraged our gender conflicts because it gives them power over us Exactly! And that's the point I've been trying to make over and over again. 　 Mel where’s the lie? Most girls are "ABOVE" puberty by 12...in many cases 10-years-old. It is only force if an adult man is having sex with a girl who is "ABOVE" puberty. Well THAT'S one of them right there....lol. Most girls are NOT above puberty at 12 and definately not at 10. Not HUMAN girls....maybe cats, horses, or zebras.....but not human females. Infact, in most places around the world girls don't even START puberty until aroun 13. But the FIRST lie you told was: "You know, like the 10, 11,12, 13 year old girls who’ve reached puberty and still play with toys, enjoy learning and playing sports , that Pioneer seems to think are fair game. " Again, can you find any quotes of me claiming that girls at this age are "fair game" or available for ANY sort of sexual contact?????? I don't recall ever making a statement like that or even coming close.

It doesn't matter when puberty "begins". ABOVE puberty means what I just said....ABOVE/BEYOND/AFTER the process of puberty! Who in the hell have YOU met who finished puberty at 12, 13, or even 14?????? You're not ABOVE puberty in those ages, you're IN puberty. See, you really need to bring an end to your campaign of lying and attempts at mischaracterization.

You quoted me exactly only AFTER lying on me. When demanded proof of your claims you quoted my words but then CLAIMED that they actually meant something else other than what I said they did. You CLAIMED that I "implied" puberty itself makes one ready for sex. I actually said as long as they are ABOVE puberty it may or may not be ok but I don't give a damn. Even when forced to quote me you tried to RE-interpret what I said.

Cynique Homosexuality has even been noted in animals. i read somewhere. But i can't cite the source so anyone can feel free to challenge this. Lol, citing YOUR sources is easy. Let me guess.... You got that information from: some White person Claiming that something occurs in the animal kingdom doesn't exempt it from having man-made origins nor human influence on it's prevelance. Cancer and physical defects also occur in the animal kingdom but they CLEARLY occur with much more prevelance under toxic conditions caused by humans such as polluted water, air, and soil.

The only "damage" that needs to be controlled is the damage that has been done to your already compromised brain power. And trying to control IT from further damage is above my pay grade. You lied on me.....plain and simple. Just like Del and Mel have done in this thread although perhaps for different reasons. You know you can't win an argument with me based on the FACTS of what I wrote so you had to make up outrageous and inflammatory statements and try and PIN them on me. When I expose the fact that those statements didn't come from me and challenge you to prove otherwise, you THEN resort to Woman-splaining and trying to tell me what I'm "implying" or RE-interpreting what I clearly said to give it another meaning to justify your argument. All done in an attempt to demonize me and my position and make yourself look morally superior. My words are my words and they stand as they are, they need no extra interpretation or intervention from you.

Del Again, thank you for clarifying that I DID NOT say what you initially accused me of saying.

Troy You know there are FAR more gay white men in the united states than there are gay Black men. If there is a conspiracy, then it appears to be backfiring, dont you think? Yes there are far more gay White men in the United States and I also believe that the PERCENTAGE of homosexuality among them is higher also. However, homosexuality among them has ALWAYS been higher and is fairly common. Going back centuries if not millenia if you look at how common homosexual relationships were in ancient Rome and Greece. Homosexuality is nothing new or "uncommon" in Caucasian society. It just alternates from persecution to acceptance at different moments in history. However what IS new and uncommon is the increasing amount of homosexuality as well as it's acceptance being seen in African societies not only in the United States but in various communities around the globe! Although homosexuality may have existed among some Africans in the past, it is miniscule compared to the amount that you see among Black people today and it DEFINATELY wasn't accepted as much as it is today which means some OUTSIDE FORCE must be influencing this.