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Troy

Another Controversial Time Magazine or Can Black Women Catch a Break

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I'm beginning to sense a pattern in the manner in which Time chooses to depict Black women:

Beyonce a terrorist

Now given our last conversation about Time Magazine's treatment of Viola Davis, one might assume I was on the hunt for more damning evidence against Time's controversial treatment of Black women on their covers,  I assure you I wasn't.  This controversial cover just landed in my lap.

I attended a book fair in Queens, New York yesterday. As I was walking around I decided to check out a panel on feminism; primarily because there were two Black women participating and I wanted to learn more about them.  One of them was Andrea Queeley who is currently an Associate Professor at Florida International University in Miami who, in the video below, related the controversy surrounding this cover.  Apparently, it was "a thing," but since I not as tuned into these social media fueled "controversies." I missed it entirely.  

The New School in New York City hosted a discussion, titled "Are You Still a Slave?," back in May of 2014 which included with bell hooks, Janet Mock, Shola Lynch, and Marci Blackman. 

hooks said, "Let's take the image of this super rich, very powerful Black female and let's use it in the service of imperialist, white supremacist capitalist patriarchy because she probably had very little control over that cover — that image..." 

Janet Mock said, "I would argue she chose this image, so I don't want to strip Beyoncé of choosing this image — of being her own manager." 

to that bell hooks replied, "Then you are saying, from my deconstructive point of view, that she is colluding in the construction of herself as a slave."

Mock later continued, "...when I am writing about sex work and sexual abuse and issues with my body, my sexuality — it was freeing to have Beyoncé owning her body and claiming that space." 

To which hooks replied, "I see a part of Beyoncé that is in fact anti-feminist — that is a terrorist, especially in terms of the impact on young girls."

bell hooks pulls no punches.  I don't know much about Beyonce or her stance on feminism. But I suspect she is most interested in money, and uses feminism as a tool when it helps.

I just don't think Time would have a white man who they considered one of the 100 most influential pose in his drawers... does this make sense?

 

 

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I agree, that Beyonce is a feminist when she WANTS to be.

Her behavior is actually no different than Lady Gaga's or Katy Perry's or any other female celebrity who may be considered attractive by the mainstream.
She uses her sexuality and body to make money on one hand and spouts out about women being objectified and sexualized on the other....sending mixed messages.

But when you realize that most people (male and female) tend to do whatever they WANT to do and whatever they think will benefit them and then try to justify and rectify it later on....then you're no longer suprised or perplexed by hypocrisy.

When people look good and they know it....they flaunt it....male OR female.
Even most very religious women will show off their body if they know it's attractive or think it'll get the attention of a person they're interested in.
Just like the humblest rich man in the world will draw attention to his wealth IF he thinks it will get him a much desired result.

So I'm not suprised that so-called feminists use their sensuality to make money.

My problems with Beyoncé's image in the media is actually not with her perceived feminism or lack of it but are more racial in nature.

First of all I don't think she's Black...literally.
She's an AfroAmerican, but not Black.

But to understand this particular point I'm making you'd also have to understand my views and classification of race and ethnicity.


And with her light skin and her wispy long blonde (I know it's dyed but it's still part of her image) bone straight hair, most people outside of the English speaking world DO NOT see her as a Black woman but as a typical blonde "American" woman. Thus she shouldn't represent "Black women".


Secondly and very closely related......
I consider her an attractive woman, but not BECAUSE of her light skin and blonde hair....but because she just has an attractive looking face and well made body.
Having said that, I don't like how so much of the media uses HER as an example of a beautiful "Black" woman. It's almost like saying the only time a Black woman can be beautiful is if she looks like or almost like a White woman.

But those are my issues with her image.
I actually don't have a problem with her as a person.
I think she's using her talents to the max and doing her thing and I really don't blame her.  (Well, she could actually lose the blonde hair).
It's how the media is using her and portraying her that I have a problem with.

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Who's using whom is the question... or is it a collaboration on a level most black people aren't privy to... But first,  I'd say anyone who sells their labor is a slave.  The industrial economy wage system, according to some was built on the slave-master model. 

In this discussion, Janet Mock is closest to describing the reality of the use of this image.

...  One who uses their talent and image for gain is usually in a licensing agreement. You literally have to enter into a contract to use someone's image.  The person licensing the image sets the terms and compensation.  In this case, Beyonce licensed her image to benefit her product. 

 

Beyoncé Exclusive: Watch the Official Video for "Pretty Hurts"

TIME Video  Apr 24, 2014

Beyoncé graces the cover of this year's TIME 100 issue and she's made TIME.com the first official outlet to show her "Pretty Hurts" video. The latest clip from her fifth, self-titled studio album strives to explore the definition of pretty. Starting today, Beyoncé asks you to join the conversation. How do you define pretty? Upload a photo or video to Instagram tagged #WhatIsPretty that captures what the word means to you. Visit WhatIsPretty.com for additional details.

 

From Rollingstone

"Beyoncé is this year's Time 100 cover star and to celebrate the occasion, the news outlet has debuted the official video for "Pretty Hurts," the opening track to her surprise 2013 album, Beyoncé."   To help promote the video and its body-positive message, Beyoncé and Time are also asking fans to upload photos or videos to Instagram with the tag #WhatIsPretty. You can find out more details on the WhatIsPretty website as well. "

As I've mentioned before - NOTHING and I mean Nothing happens without Beyonce's  approval and her calculated moves.  She runs her empire and manages her brand.  So if she decided to appear on TIME magazine in a two-piece bikini w/ coverup to promote her (at the time, secret album) and first "single" Pretty Hurts... It's seems she got a two-fer from Time.  (An award while promoting her new release)

Time-Warner owned Time, Inc. and still owns HBO.  So I'm not surprised.  Beyonce always releases her newest projects through that media giant - (Time was sold in June 2014 - a little bit after her album release and cover) In February 2016 - Beyonce tapped Warner Bros Exec to run her parkwood entertainment label...so there must a powerful deal between the two entities -  One that her record label isn't in on. Now that's the real story!

As for the body conscious outfit on Time, Inc. cover. I wasn't surprised. I mean what would one expect her to wear?  She wears body conscious costumes during all her performances - it's her brand.  Thinking she would appear out of costume is like asking Bootsy Collins not to wear skintight pants and platforms or Sir Nose D'void of funk not to look like Pinocchio (or vice versa)

Beyonce dresses conservatively for interviews - but not magazine covers.   That would be a rare cover.

***


By the way, @Troy what does feminism mean to you? 

Feminism has several layers and means different things to different people. Some feminist are activists and do their best to remind men not to hog space. Some just want equal treatment/equal rights and equal pay.  For others such as me, Feminism means you don't get to usurp my agency. You don't get to tell me how I should feel or behave AND definitely not what to do with my body I'm responsible for my actions and I don't ask permission. I decide my value and worth not someone outside of me.  I tell you how much you'll pay me for what I offer. Sometimes I'll negotiate. Sometimes, I'll gift it but it's my choice. I'm the we stand together in a partnership or I walk alone type of feminist.

Beyonce represents that brand of feminism partly and she's also subscribes to womanism (which the old school definition was very protective of black men in addition to black woman's agency).   She reaches her publics by reminding them they are "unapologetically" women, in charge of their lives, firstly. She reminds them through her music they don't need permission to be great or even small. It's their choice and they should own it all.

I'm surprised this isn't clear to everyone. But I guess they aren't paying attention to Beyonce's actions, her artistry or even music selection. Just looking at her as if she's making  a spectacle of herself.

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Beyonce is very proud of her Creole heritage, but she appears to have no problem  embracing her blackness.  Her hair is not only not naturally blond, but is not straight either and she sings about "Becky with the good hair", her term for a white girl, on her last album. BTW, this album entitled "Lemonade" centers around her making lemonade out of the lemon of being cheated on by her husband.  So all of her beauty and fame didn't keep JayZ's eye from straying. But she was disarmed enough by love to obviously forgve him to the tune of getting knocked up with twins by him.  Currently she is flaunting her pregnancy,  extolling her body as a source of new life, appointing herself as a goddess of  fertility.      

So to me, Beyonce is more about glorifying womanhood and all of it facets, rather than hard core feminism which seems arbitrary in its demand for equality with men on every level.  Since bell hooks is a lesbian, i take her assessment of Beyonce  with a grain of salt.  i don't believe these females  think much of  anybody who doesn't adhere to their agenda.

I agree with Mel's personal embodiment of feminism as do most black woman i know.  I, personally, never had a problem with capable black men being in charge, and capable is the operative word here, one which too often  get's compromised by the male ego which in turn, is made vulnerable by the male libido.  So  in dealing with male leaders I always had a plan B which focused on a capable woman.  I do believe that  in professions where brawn usurps brains,  a job that a woman is not physically equipped to do, is unqualified to do it.

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Another thing I've noticed about Beyonce's image is the "thigh gap".

I've always been aware of it but didn't know what it was called.
That hollow muscular part of the inner thigh that seems to be more prominent in White and Asian women (especially when they're slim) than in Black and Latina women.

One of the things I liked about Beyonce's body....like Eryka Badu's....is that she was slim but had a big curvy butt.
You don't see that at all in this picture.
She's essentiallly made like a White girl (or how White girls USED to be made because many of them have big butts today) in this photo shoot.

Light skin, long blond wispy hair, and now skinny thighs with gaps in a black-n-white photo that takes her skin look even lighter.....

We're basically looking at a White woman in this picture for all intents and purposes.

Is she really the BEST choice to teach young Black girls how to be strong and beautiful?

 

 


Cynique

Come on, you and I both know that marriage....like most celebrity marriages....is a BUSINESS ARRANGEMENT, lol.

Wealthy people synergistically combining their money for strategic and probably even legal reasons.

MAYBE they actually love eachother.

Lol, and as Delano would say:

Or maybe they don't.

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@Pioneer1Well, sorry, i do have to disagree with you.  :D No, i don't know that marriage among celebrities is a business arrangement.l think celebrities fall in and out of love just like everybody else, and they use pre-nup agreements for their safety nets. Female ones, in particular, are vulnerable because in spite of all their fame they are insecure and in need of being loved for themselves and  sometimes even marry poor unknowns.  i think JayZ and Beyonce genuinely love each other and this could be reinforced by  each  knowing that neither one of them married for money.

 BTW, Beyonce is not that petite.  She's 5'6" and has 39" in hips.

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Just posting the video directly:

 

Mel I honestly I don't really think too much about feminism. I think racism it a more pressing issue which of course affects both men and women.

Feminism seems like a white women's fight against their men.  

It is not Black men holding Black women back.  We don't make laws telling Black women what do with their bodies, we did not prevent women from voting.  We don't pay women less for the same work.  

To me feminism, at least for Back women, should be a secondary, perhaps tertiary consideration behind racism and the growth in wealth and power of the ruling class.  It is another thing that has divided us. 

bell and Beyonce beef did not benefit the people.  bell's critique was simply a windfall for Beyonce giving Beyonce's project more exposure and free publicity.increasing the wealth of both herself and her corporate masters. 

I'm too male and old to care very much about Beyonce. She is a wildly successful entertainer, whose music or thoughts (as publically portrayed) don't interest me because they are fake carefully crafted for public consumption to maximize revenue.  I got a glimpse of the real Beyonce in the elevator video...

 

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5 hours ago, Troy said:

 It is another thing that has divided us. 

@Troy  we're not divided.  Black women are still holding down the fort.

Subjugation, sexism, gender and racial discrimination et al. are all included in the fight against racism because oppression is the result of the global patriarchal structure that gave rise to the zero-sum economics we practice.  It is the sole reason, according to historians, that the terms black vs. white entered the lexicon of the American economy. 

  "divide" is the tool of the oppressor and it seems some fall for it every time...

One would have to ask themselves, If black women are fighting a battle they believe is important and black men decide it isn't and walk away. That's not division - that's black men leaving black women to fight the battle.  Black men left the fort.  The one who stands their ground in a battle isn't the cause of division.

But let's back-track a bit, Black women "be staying on the front lines" for every cause that affects all blacks in America."  From the time of slavery in America to the present. 

For example, In Detroit, 1930, it was the Detroit Housewives League who made it possible for 70,000 jobs to open up for the black community.   By the way, they weren't really housewives - because they said they couldn't afford to be but the organization founded by Fannie Peck called it that...

“It was an attempt by African-American women to essentially try to expand the job market for all African Americans in Detroit by boosting the businesses, black-owned businesses, and pressuring white-owned businesses to hire African American workers,” Victoria Wolcott said. (in an interview with Michigan Radio talking about her book "Remaking Respectability: African-American Women in Interwar Detroit."  They came up with the slogan "Don't buy where you can't work" "In 1935 they set a huge packing warehouse on fire protesting against high prices, and later joined thousands of Chicago housewives in a march that shut down the city’s entire meat industry. "


Black Women continued to stay on the front lines...

The Civil Rights movement was started by black women until they had to take a back seat to black men who for some reason thought to move them out of position.   Many report that experiencing gender discrimination in the civil rights movement caused them to use their energy and expertise in the feminist movement in the 70s... However, that's not when Women's rights activism started here in America..

We have Isabella Baumfree's story that allows us to take a look back at the movement that was included in abolitionist's movement.  Those pioneers realized early on - that they couldn't rid the U.S. of slavery without working to "free" women too.  Not only did Isabella Baumfree (Sojourner Truth) free herself, give a speech " at the  Ohio Women's Rights Convention - she later began recruiting black men to fight in the civil war...

In the same year Beyonce' graced the cover of Time 100;  "In 2014, Truth was included in Smithsonian magazine's list of the "100 Most Significant Americans of All Time"

In the year Michael Brown was executed in the street black women started the Black Lives Matter" Movement against police brutality holding the law enforcement structure accountable...today we have police body cams, and even police officers being indicted for reckless behavior - some serve time some don't but this is the result of black women keeping their eye on racism - and black men's lives  in society while they themselves, as black women, hover around the bottom rung. 

The only black man (half-black) man to assist in the plight of black women was President Barack Obama and for 8 years he passed laws and initiatives that directly raised the economic profile of black women. But I digress.

We're still here doing what we've always have done. We're battling oppression.  Still all our marching and rallying for equity and against racism in America has benefited black men economically.   Black women are still at the bottom of the economic ladder while continuing to be the cornerstone of our communities and political landscape.  So while you may not see feminism as important - it is.  Especially if black women only have themselves to count on when it comes to fighting battles that directly affect their sovereignty.

Nope. There's no division. Any number divided by itself is one. 

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Mel, of course, there have been many Black women who have and are currently fighting courageously against racism. I hope you did not come away with that impression with what I wrote.

I also want to emphasize that I not believe fighting for equality for women (feminism) is unimportant. I just think it should be subordinate to the fight against racism. I think our energies are often misdirected protecting people who don't need our protection and it comes at our expense.

Was I wrong in viewing bell's comment regarding Beyonce as divisive?  What did I miss?

"The only black man (half-black) man to assist in the plight of black women was President Barack Obama"

Mel that is a bold statement and one that I would suggest is largely indefensible.  There are countless Black male ministers, for example, across the country who provide emotional, spiritual, and even financial support to Black women and their families.  I could go on all day with other examples...

BTW, what did Obama do that helped black women specifically?  I don't mean something like Obama Care that helped everyone (i.e. mostly white folk).

 

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3 hours ago, Troy said:

I don't mean something like Obama Care that helped everyone (i.e. mostly white folk).

Since there's more white people in America, it may have seemed to have benefited them but the break down in the link provided shows how Black Americans' health coverage was finally able to match the level of white America's health care coverage.  During ACA's initial open-enrollment about 3 million uninsured nonelderly, African-American adults gained health coverage. (there are only 42.6 million black people in America).  Also  Affordable Care Act actually helped more black men per capita who could never afford coverage than black women but the health challenges that are unique women (specifically black women) were covered under the preventative care mandate. 

For example, it's reported "black women got  breast cancer at a slower rate than white women" but we mostly die from if we get it; it is diagnosed too late..

"Obamacare reduced coverage disparities for a number of black women, allowing them to access routine health care treatment and check-ups with a primary care physician. The preventive care clause in the ACA has been life-changing for many black women: It gives them better access to early cancer screenings. Black women are twice as likely as white women to die of cervical cancer and twice as likely to be diagnosed in the later stages of breast cancer."

Also black children (which 72 - 67% live with their mother) also had affordable coverage.

Black women and children are considered a family -but black women also fall in the single category so if median wealth for black single women is $5. The median for wealth for white families is $141,000 while for black families its $11,000 if they have any savings at all. Wealth, therefore, is non existent for a single black woman with children.  Policies, such as ACA ,from the Obama Administration targeting African Americans pulled a lot of black women out of poverty and gave us a chance at putting the first brick in the foundation of our economic fortress. 
 

I know I already posted here in the forum what President Obama did for black women...If I find it, I edit this piece. 

From https://aalbc.com/tc/topic/4253-12-deadchristmas-nightchicago/#comment-19782 & https://melhopkins.com/2017/02/04/aalbc-discussion-not-your-mule/

"Black women (including single black mothers) are the most educated and employed according to the US Education and Labor Department 2015 statistics...[omit]

 

since 2008, births for unmarried black women have declined.  During that same period, there was an increase in advanced degrees conferred to black women, black women started more small businesses even when not receiving the same amount angel funding as their white counterparts; and they became the most employed yet underpaid of all ethnic groups except non-white hispanics.

Just a quick search of the strides black women made in the last 8 years revealed

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2016/10/14/progress-african-american-community-during-obama-administration

Health & Safety

Affordable Care Act 2014 Preventive Care Clause better access to early screenings

https://globalpolicysolutions.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/ACA-and-Racial-Disparities.pdf

“reduced coverage disparities for millions of black women allowing them access to routine health care treatment and check-ups with a primary care physician – as of January 1, 2017, 32 out 50 states had expanded Medicaid to include most low-income Americans. Health Care Coverage for dependent children up to age 26 ;

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/black-women-obamacare-repeal-aca_us_5894d564e4b09bd304bb43cd  https://globalpolicysolutions.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/ACA-and-Racial-Disparities.pdf

Teen pregnancy among African-American women is at an historic low. The birth rate per 1,000 African-American teen females has fallen from 60.4 in 2008, before President Obama entered office, to 34.9 in 2014.

Vocal critic of domestic violence/sexual assault – National Awareness Campaign “It’s on Us” The Reauthorization of the Violence against Women act in 2013

Wage Inequality and Economic Marginalization

https://www.inquiriesjournal.com/articles/992/womens-issues-in-the-obama-era-expanding-equality-and-social-opportunity-under-the-obama-administration

Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act in January 2009 (lengthen the statute of limitations for discriminatory pay claims

Paycheck fairness act in 2014 (failed to pass)

Recovery Act – increased minimum wage – protection of Temporary Assistant to Needy Families’ expansion of income tax credit with most single-headed households receiving a minimum of $1000 per tax return.

JumpStart Our Business Start-up (JOBS) Act

“resulted in a major shift in securities laws that meant the emancipation of capital for minority and women-owned businesses, who traditionally have struggled with gaining access to capital through traditional means. a start-up can publicly raise capital, participate in equity-based crowdfunding and use online tools to find investors, as well as raise up to $50 million from both non-accredited investors and accredited investors (those making at least $200,000 a year or have a million-dollar net-worth).

Education

$118 million in public-private fund investments to improve the Lives of Women and Girls of Color.  Summit focused on 5 issues areas where intervention can promote opportunities for success – Fostering School Success; Reducing unnecessary of exclusionary discipline, meeting the needs of vulnerable striving youth; inclusive STEM education; sustaining reduced rates for teen pregnancy and aiding in economic prosperity\

HBCU funding $4 Billion and Pell Grant Increased by 300 million to $824 million in 2014

High School Graduation rates climbed

Legal and Judicial

Lorretta Lynch, Attorney General, Justice Department First African-American Woman

Carla Haydn; Librarian of Congress, First African-American & Woman – Librarian of Congress

 

Nominated more than 300 judges – 19% confirmed judges are African-American; 62 lifetime appointments & appointments of 53 African-American District Court Judges including 26 African-American women. 

So why is it that for the last 8 years,  under the Obama's Administration black women have flourished -yet many say he did nothing to help black people."

Federal judicial appointment  https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/IN10234.pdf

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/president-obama-the-legacy/obama-s-legacy-judicial-appointments-numbers-n709306

http://www.scholarsstrategynetwork.org/brief/obamas-judicial-appointments-time-extraordinary-obstruction

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/obama-courts-judicial-legacy-226741[Update Ends]

But it went something like this that I used on my blog awhile back

According to the Women's Bureau at The Department of Labor 4 out 10 black families are headed by single mothers with children under 18. And while black women have the highest labor force participation rate with 6 out of 10 black women working or looking for work. Yet black women earn 20 percent less than white women and 40 percent less than white men.

While we’ve heard these numbers more than once including during President Obama’s epic speech to Howard University graduates (7 May 2016) it’s not all bad news. The Department of Labor officials report they’ve been working on policies that are aimed at mitigating the hardships black women in the labor force face.  Those policies include paid family leave, a hike in minimum wage, opportunities to close the wage gap in an effort that single black women can earn more to contribute to their retirement.    (check mark for that fact that it did happen.) Further, President Obama put an emphasis on enterpreneurial activites which many black women benefited. 

By 2015 - more than 1.5 million businesses were owned by Black women that generated over $44 billion in year revenues (2015)
 

Yes I made that bold statement about President Obama fighting on the behalf of black women, simply because there's evidence to back up the claim.  He filled the federal court benches with 26 black women, he filled his cabinet and WH staff with black women... He provided opportunities for black women to get education and we did in record numbers.  

Please name one black man who has done anything to help black women build their collective economic and social standing here in the U.S.

That line about  black male preachers is laughable!  Who attends church and tithes to keep the "Passa" in his Rolls Royce? BLACK WOMEN! Women attendance in black churches is almost 10% higher than men in historically black churches.  And that's just those surveyed... Go into a black church on Sunday and you do the math.  It's only right black male preachers give back to the group that pays them.  As far as emotional support - while that is very necessary, it doesn't provide economic empowerment to the very women who are carrying their communities on their back.  

It's more than many women fighting the oppression of racism - it's every black woman fighting oppression in their own way and most of the time alone. 

 @Troy, I believe there a lot of black men who feel the same way as you about gender oppression. I heard of a group of black preachers who voted for and support Trump for similar reasons. They are indifferent to female gender oppression.  Well, it's at the foundation of their beliefs.

Bell Hooks may be distracting even annoying by using Beyonce to raise her profile but she' s not divisive to me... she's just fighting oppression from her own front porch. But she definitely doesn't think feminism is subordinate to racism - she's fighting on both fronts. She's fighting because she realizes they're two sides of the same coin.   There's no hierarchy to oppression. 

 

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I don't see the slavery in the image. 

Cynique Beyonce released Lemonade on Tidal the day after Prince Died. Tidal is owned or at least partially by Sean Carter.  

Using the argument about Trump and racism as analogy.

She uses Feminism lIke a tool. Then like Trump who is a racist, she is not a feminist. 

Feminism is less important than racism to you. In the Civil Rights Movement, there was a debate about supporting the striking garbage workers. The argument against was it dilutes or isn't our issue. King also could see that it was part of divide and conquer. 

Troy if you were white and the issue was race. Your theoretical position would be race isn't as important as economic equality. Or how some white people don't see racism. 

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The "litmus test" in the past has been that the Gay and Feminist movements could not ride the coattails of  the Civil Rights movement  because Gays and Women have choices .  They could vacillate between being gay and appearing straight, - between being a feminist warrior or a femme fatale sex object.  Whereas blacks had no alternative or choice when it came to being black because their skin color automatically guaranteed the discrimination that violated their civli rights. So racism and feminism are kinda like apples and oranges. 

When it comes to Feminists, black women didn't have to craft a movement to  demand equality with men, it was a role thrust upon them and, as Mel implied,  they are flexible when it comes to wearing the feminist hat.  During my era black women en mass  tended to dismiss feminists because of this and because of how these Militant Miz Anns co-opted the cause and wanted to run the show and call the shots, Also there was widespread opposition to lesbians on the part of the black community who believe the feminism movement was primarily made up of them. And, too, some aware black women recalled how the Woman's Suffrage Movement had the gall to discriminate against black women who wanted to be a part of the fight to gain the vote.

Beyonce is an intellectual lightweight.  When she started out in Destiny's Child she was so inarticulate and terrible at enunciating her speech that she had to be refined. I'm sure JayZ has a hand in guiding her career, as did her father,  but that doesn't mean that her marriage is a loveless one.  She still strikes me as shallow but she knows how best to showcase her musical talent and shape her public image. She is a member of a profession where this is routinely the case 

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Cynique

BTW, Beyonce is not that petite. She's 5'6" and has 39" in hips

Well that was the point of my previous post.
She DOES have some curves about her, but you don't see that in THIS PARTICULAR photo.
Her body is portrayed with that skinny legged "Kate Moss" look with the shrunken thighs and the zombied out appearance.


You're right.....
The Black power movement, feminist movement, and gay rights movement are apples oranges and bananas.
It's hard to equate one with the other because they all have their peculiar similarities and differences.




Mel

Please name one black man who has done anything to help black women build their collective economic and social standing here in the U.S.

Would Minister Farrakhan and what he's done with the MGT count?
Or would you put him in the "preacher" catagory?

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How are Racism Sexism, Chauvanism and Nationalism differnt. Except the audience and victims are different. To me they are all about control of image, which leads to all the other subordinations and diminishment. To me itsis always about power and insecurity.

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I said they are different with SOME similarities.

For example, religion was used to oppress and justify the abuse of both groups.

What Black people went (are going) through for the 500 or 600 years of contact with Europeans was extreme and intense involving millions of people murdered as well as slavery and it's after effects.
On the flip side, what women went (are going) through with sexism wasn't quite as intense but much longer, existing for thousands of years of discrimination and abuse at the hands of patriarchal societies around the globe.


Another difference is that atleast women were NEEDED by their abusers so men were a little more hesitant to kill women wholesale, but Whites were killing Blacks by the millions during the TransAtlantic Slave Trade seeing them as worthless animals.

But again on the other hand, when Blacks aren't under the thumb of White racist domination they lived among eachother in relative peace and stability in thier own society building their own institutions, but no matter what society women were in or where they went they were subject to being dominated, controled, and often abused by the men in that society.  Most often by men in their own family....and it was accepted as a way of life.

Like I said, it's hard....for me atleast....to compare the two together.
The dynamics are so separate.

Throw POVERTY and income inequality next to them and how poor people are looked down upon and have been mistreated through out history and the comparison becomes even MORE complicated with some believing the poor "deserve" to be that way or others at the opposite end claiming that rich are evil and won't enter a kingdom.

Apples, collard greens, oak trees, roast beef sandwiches......lol.....can't compare them.

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@DelanoYou answered your own question.  Each one of these ism is different because its victims are  specific targets of malicious discrimination.  They aren't lumped together because the victims  do not have common grievances, and they could possibly be enemies of each other. 

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Whoa! Mel, you put a lot out there so much that I can't realistically hit all the points but I'll try to address the major themes.

First Obamacare really did not get going until 2014, so in less the three years you've assigned a great number of benefits that there simply was not enough time to attribute to Obama or were already on a downward trend before Obama took office (like black teen pregnancies).

You mentioned a number of Black women Obama appointed, but for every Black woman he appointed, I could point to two wealthy white guys he appointed.  Indeed that was one of Obama's criticisms.  

But even with Rice and Holder, Black folks were driven to riot in the streets, launch Black Lives Matter in reaction to a country that demonstrated wanton disregard for our lives.  Obama had little impact here.  Indeed the data suggest Obama actually inflamed racial tensions, culminating in the election of racism wielding 45.

As far as the impact of the male leadership of the Black church being "laughable," I don;t know what to write in reaction to that.  But I'll say this, while you may find it laughable, I assure you millions of other Black women do not.  The take their churches, religion, and the Black men who often lead these institutions very seriously leaders very very seriously.  The Brothers had, and well have a great impact on these women's lives than Obama can possibly have. You live in ATL, surely you must see this.

The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan, for an example, is an inspirational leader to his followers. I'm not aware of anyone who has done more to make, as an example, formerly incarcerated brother productive citizens and Black women directly benefit as a result.  Now you or I may not like the lifestyle, but that does not negate or diminish the positive impact this Brother has had is having and will have.  Obama is not likely to reproduce an accomplishment nearly this impactful--especially not that he is out of office.  

Mel, I know you are a fervent Obama supporter.  I supported Obama too.

I don't think bell hook made the statement to raise her profile; the scandal-seeking media did that, and Black feminists are still talking about in in 2017!

I also don't know if hooks would put feminism in front of racism as a priority, but if she did we would just be in disagreement. It does not make either of wrong or better than the other--just different.

@Delano, I'm Black and I don't think racism trumps economic inequality.  I think economic inequality and the growing power of the plutocracy is our most pressing problem. Racism and sexism are tools used to keep us down. We live a country that is making the rich richer and the poor poorer.  In a country where the wealth was shared more equitably, a Trump presidency could never have occurred.

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3 hours ago, Troy said:

Mel, I know you are a fervent Obama supporter.  I supported Obama too.

@Troy Actually I'm not a fervent Obama supporter.. I did leave the republican party to  support his campaign for president and I voted for him twice - BUT  I  don't like that he supported many of Bush's policies. I believe in freedom.  Many of Mr. Obama's policies from the Bush administration - curtailed our freedom of movement.  In fact, many of Trump's so called war on terror - is a continuation of the Obama Administration policies.  So please don't get it twisted...

I just call it how it is revealed.  The focus is on black women right now.  And As President, as I outlined with evidence (not my personal observation or feelings) - Mr. Obama did more for black women, socially, economically and even physically if you count in health care, than has any other black man in history full stop. 

What's more he took the time to focus on black women needs even while doing the most for black men. 

I suggest you take a look at President Obama's record of executive orders, bills signed into legislation and his initiatives.  

I have. 

 

3 hours ago, Troy said:

As far as the impact of the male leadership of the Black church being "laughable," I don;t know what to write in reaction to that.  But I'll say this, while you may find it laughable, I assure you millions of other Black women do not

Again with the pastors smh.  I attend  Publix supermarket every week sometime twice a week and they in turn send me coupons  to use when I return. They send me recipes to make so I will come in buy more food.  It's a symbiotic relationship but make no mistake I do know Publix Supermarket is somewhat in control of my ability to sustain myself .  Publix is not  working to make it possible that I grow my own vegetables, house a dairy farm or cattle ranch.  They are not helping me in that way -they are working to keep me dependent and subservient. 

From my long time experience with the black church - it's the same relationship. There's no socioeconomic empowerment going on there either.  If there were the term "black male leadership" wouldn't be in use - it would simply be "church leadership" has empowered black women  to.[ fill in the blank]. The black church has empowered black people to...[to be right the hell where we are, in last place.]

BUT This says it all - "male leadership"...   LEADERS teach  and empower. 

What is the legacy of church black male leadership?
What has the black male leadership done for the collective socioeconomic status for black women?  You didn't answer the question.

 

3 hours ago, Troy said:

I also don't know if hooks would put feminism in front of racism as a priority, but if she did we would just be in disagreement. It does not make either of wrong or better than the other--just different.

Now you're just trolling me.

FROM HER WEBSITE :  bell hooks is an acclaimed intellectual, feminist theorist, cultural critic, artist, and writer. hooks has authored over three dozen books and has published works that span several genres, including cultural criticism, personal memoirs, poetry collections, and children's books. Her writings cover topics of gender, race, class, spirituality, teaching, and the significance of media in contemporary culture.    - gender is first on the list.

 

@Pioneer1  I appreciated that Louis Farrakhan is a knowledgeable man - with an estimated networth of $3 -to 5 million but what has he done for black woman to elevate their socioeconomic status in America?  What legislative proposals has he written or championed to raise the status of black women in America. 

Women who choose to follow Islam are under the auspices of that religion. They live their lives according to the Quran. It's their choice but it also strips them of a lot decision-making once they choose to follow Islam.  I'm not a follower so I can't speak to how this raises the profile of black women, however the results of the NOI and its effect on the status of Black Women is clear. Black women lose their agency once they choose to follow the tenets of any religion.  Religion is about obedience and the rules are in place.  * * *

 

While some women may fawn over men who pay attention to them - (heck I can even be one of those women at times) it doesn't stop me from looking for the results.  If I start with 100 shoes when you come into my life - and while we're together I only have 50 and even those are falling apart  and we don't have anything else to show for our union- yo' ass got to go. :lol:

When my daughter and I went to vote for Hillary in the last election, we joked and said, "well let  us go to polls to secure our place on the bottom." 
We were half-joking because while we (black women) are still last on the economic ladder, she had a secured her position as a contract analyst at new technology law firm ... and I was finally able to focus on building my communication/publishing business.  

The last 8 years had been beneficial my daughters and myself... we were left with 150 shoes.  so much so,  my daughters sent my mother and I on all expense paid vacation to Washington, DC.  to visit the National Museum of African American History and Culture... We're not the exception, we're the results of the Obama Administration.

 

So again I'll pose this If you know of any other black man - wait, I'll make it easy ANY MAN who has championed the rights of black women and actually helped us inch up higher  at last place - please share.  I really want to know because I might have missed his work.

 

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Amen,  or should i say "Awomen", Mel!  i was scratching my head, stunned as to how Troy and Pioneer could cite the church in general and an islamic one in particular as being sources of empowering black women!  These chauvinistic  institutions are rife with sexism, and guilty of captivating and subjugating their tithing, Jesus-loving members while encouraging them to obey their husbands and, as in the case of islam, requiring them to cover their heads, wear white, and humbly defer to their men and even tolerate multiple wives.   Puleeze!

And what has Farrakhan done for the black community lately, except lead a life of luxurious leisure and surface once a year to stand on a dais and deliver a marathon speech spewing the same old rhetoric.  Since i don't know, will someone inform me what noteworthy profitable industries and jobs and economic progress the black Muslims have made,  besides selling bean pies, and hawking newspapers, adopting Arabic names,  and its menfolk wearing business suits instead of saggin jeans? Yes, i know they have a prison ministry but what are they doing to prevent young black men from being sent there in the first place?  Actually Jesse Jackson's Operation Uplift organization in Chicago does a lot in this area but it is not  a church and it does have women in its upper echelon. 

I also don't know anything about Obama's official record on helping black women but i do know that millions of them were inspired by the black woman he chose for his wife, and elevated  to the empowering status of first lady. Sistas were also warmed by the devotion and respect he shows Michelle.  Also his senior white house staff advisor was a black woman named Valerie  Jarrett  

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@Delano I'm curious. What did this macho Black Panther leader do to empower black women?

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Mel

I appreciated that Louis Farrakhan is a knowledgeable man - with an estimated networth of $3 -to 5 million but what has he done for black woman to elevate their socioeconomic status in America? What legislative proposals has he written or championed to raise the status of black women in America.

Hundreds if not thousands of Black women credit Minister Farrakhan for their being cleaned up from a life of drug/alcohol addiction, crime, domestic abuse, and improving their personal self esteem and self worth.
I'd think this would have a much better and more direct effect in uplifting the social and economic status of Black women than passing bureaucratic laws from Washington D.C. that often takes years for their effects to be felt and are often tied up by red-tape to the point of ineffectiveness.

 

 

Women who choose to follow Islam are under the auspices of that religion. They live their lives according to the Quran. It's their choice but it also strips them of a lot decision-making once they choose to follow Islam. I'm not a follower so I can't speak to how this raises the profile of black women, however the results of the NOI and its effect on the status of Black Women is clear. Black women lose their agency once they choose to follow the tenets of any religion. Religion is about obedience and the rules are in place. * * *

To a large extent you're right, religion DOES strip people (both male and female) of their decision making, and I'm not the biggest fan of religion myself.
However some would argue that this stripping of their ability to make conceptually WRONG decisions in their lives and focus them on a more disciplined purpose driven life has actually been more beneficial to their upliftment than having no rules or discipline to guide them.

Kind of like a University that grades and graduates students who are disciplined enough to follow the rules of learning for their own benefit.

Many women who were once street and ghetto are now productive workers, mothers, and business owners as a direct result of Minister Farrakhan's teachings and required discipline.
One of them is Minister Ava Muhammad......

Image result for ava muhammad
Dr. Ava Muhammad described in detail that she was introduced to the Teachings of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad though a speech by Minister Farrakhan in 1981 in New York. At the time, she was involved in an emotional, mental and physical battle with cancer. He spoke of the healing power of Allah that night.

"I am so thankful to Allah that when I first heard Minister Farrakhan, I was in the throes of cancer so that I would not have to struggle with a dilemma because I was in the throes of death and he was sunlight, sunshine, and life," said Ava Muhammad.

http://www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/National_News_2/article_101451.shtml

 

 

 

When my daughter and I went to vote for Hillary in the last election, we joked and said, "well let us go to polls to secure our place on the bottom."
We were half-joking because while we (black women) are still last on the economic ladder, she had a secured her position as a contract analyst at new technology law firm ... and I was finally able to focus on building my communication/publishing business

You believe that Black women are on the BOTTOM of the economic ladder?

Do you think that Black men, Native American men, and Native American women are doing better from a socio-economic stand point than Black women?

 

 

 

So again I'll pose this If you know of any other black man - wait, I'll make it easy ANY MAN who has championed the rights of black women and actually helped us inch up higher at last place - please share. I really want to know because I might have missed his work.

Well.....
If you don't care too much for Farrakhan as an example, how about another in Booker T. Washington who hired Black women to teach AND taught Black women in his schools improving their lives and the lives of their families and many more generations to come.....all during a time when Black women weren't allowed by the general society to even get an education....atleast in the South:

Image result for booker t washington

"On July 4th, 1881 Washington officially opened Tuskegee with what he described as 30 "anxious and earnest students," many of whom were already public school teachers. Washington was the only teacher. As word of the school spread, other teachers and students began to arrive. All were mature men and women. Some were quite elderly. His plan was to train most of his students to be teachers who would return to their rural communities and teach the people how to "put new energy and new life into farming,"

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/jimcrow/stories_events_tuskegee.html

 

 

 

 

Cynique

And what has Farrakhan done for the black community lately, except lead a life of luxurious leisure and surface once a year to stand on a dais and deliver a marathon speech spewing the same old rhetoric. Since i don't know, will someone inform me what noteworthy profitable industries and jobs and economic progress the black Muslims have made, besides selling bean pies, and hawking newspapers, adopting Arabic names, and its menfolk wearing business suits instead of saggin jeans? Yes, i know they have a prison ministry but what are they doing to prevent young black men from being sent there in the first place?

I'm not sure what's wrong with Minister Farrakhan or any other Black leader who earned his wealth,  leading a luxurious life.
Last I checked he never took a vow of poverty.

And as I've mentioned and Troy's mentioned, hundreds....probably thousands....of Black men and women have been cleaned up morally and physically as a direct result of Minister Farrakhan's efforts in the Black community.

But alas.....
He is a leader....but NOT a dictator.

He's called a MINISTER for a reason.
The only thing he can do is deliver the message and urge Black men to stop using and selling dope, stop killing eachother, and clean up their homes and communities and take care of their families. He can't put a gun to their heads and MAKE them do otherwise.

Many of the problems that Black people face are not legal or economic but MORAL and only a change in MORAL behavior will improve their lot....and THAT for the most part is an individual choice.

 

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@Pioneer1 Your defense of Farrakhan rings hollow; provides no facts, figures or specifics just some generalities falling in line with a carefully crafted image about a power hungry man who was part of the regime who had Malcolm X assassinated and whose mentor Elijah Muhammad was a lecher who exploited young girls.  There are thousands of unsung teachers and preachers and organization who have inspired young black to turn their lives around. There's a black, all boys high school in Chicago where each June, 100 percent of the graduating class has been accepted by a college. And the nation of Islam is in no way affiliated with this inner city school.

No, it not uncommon for a leader to lead a life of luxurious leisure off the backs of his faithful followers.

You should be a minister yourself, you're always preaching. LOL

@Delano Come on guy, is that the best you can do?  I'm disappointed.  Where was Huey when Black Panther Eldridege was beating the shit out of his wife, Kathleen?  The Panthers were notoriously misogynistic.  And what's empowering about women feeding children?  they do this every day. Or what noteworthy accomplishment did Afeni achieve while babysitting what was left of the Panther party?

@Mel Hopkins This request from you: "If you know of any other black man - wait, I'll make it easy ANY MAN who has championed the rights of black women and actually helped us inch up higher  at last place - please share.  I really want to know because I might have missed his work.," remains unfulfilled, girlfriend.

 

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9 hours ago, Cynique said:

@Mel Hopkins This request from you: "If you know of any other black man - wait, I'll make it easy ANY MAN who has championed the rights of black women and actually helped us inch up higher  at last place - please share.  I really want to know because I might have missed his work.," remains unfulfilled, girlfriend.

@Cynique, I was hopeful, but I'm not surprised.

***

Best part of this conversation, is it shows we blame white people for what is apparently human pathological tendencies we all share.  

If anything, we should all be upset that straight white males exploit that behavior in us and use if to their advantage.   They remain at the top, the apex predator - and we help them stay there.

Case-in-point, Troy says that "feminism" should take a backseat to "racism"- it's unimportant to him; Cynique reminded us for the infighting between black and white suffragettes yesterday, and it continues in feminism today; civil rights leaders want gay rights to take a backseat - even though we know gay rights ARE at the heart of civil rights and on and on. 

 

"People moving out people moving in why just because of the color of the skin, run run run but you sho' can't hide"  Songwriters Barret Strong Norman Whitfiled Norrman J Whitfield" 

 

The truth is it's all oppression pure and simple and it must be eradicated simultaneously. But that won't happen because the majority want to secure their place on the totem pole.

Don't hate the player, hate the game. 

I've said it before. I don't play games. I hate games.  And while the idea of living  in a world where people are truly free and equal, scares me- that's the world I want to experience. 

There's no hierarchy in oppression. The "Oppression" game has run its course. It must be discontinued and eradicated.

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The only difference between the greedy rich and the poor is opportunity.

In various movements be  their underdog. The dog chases the cat .

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Mel when you wrote this "...I just call it how it is revealed.  The focus is on black women right now.  And As President, as I outlined with evidence (not my personal observation or feelings..." the implication, or a reasonable conclusion, is that what I did. 

For example, you gave Obama credit for lowering teen pregnancy rates.  The fact of the matter is that those rates were already in decline before Obama took office and the conditions that produced the trend started before that

When you give Obama credit for things like this and the great volume of praise you heaped on him lead me to believe you were a fervent supporter.  Absent the critique that you subsequently posted, do you see how someone could make the assumption that you were a fervent supporter?

Now when I mention the Black church. I think you are using your opinion in assessing their impact.  Truth be told we share many of the same opinions on the church. The only difference is that I'm just not willing to ignore the benefits many churches provide for the community.  There are Brothers like Floyd Flake, who is the Pastor of Greater Allen African Methodist Episcopal Cathedral in Jamaica, Queens. He did great things for his community.  Of course there are many many others. 

Sadly we often focus more on the pastors who are not worth a damn and completely ignore the ones making a real impact like Herbert D. Daughtry, Sr. Pastor of House of the Lord Pentecostal Church in Brooklyn.  

But since we have no platforms that Black people should support and read, we believe the church completely worthless.  An understandable assumption is you rely on the mainstream media including Time Magazine for your information 

Same goes for the NOI.  I think Ava Muhammad is a great woman.  Indeed, if she were not Black, Female, and Muslin she might have some notoriety. Instead, we are given a Beyonce by the like of Time for our leadership...

If I have my way Black folks will exact a modicum of agency and select who we think is influential.  Now obviously we will not agree on who should be uplifted and highlighted as someone whose ideas are important. But at least we would not be focused on a product, like Beyonce. Nor would we present the people we revered in their undies.

Can you image if Dr. Ava Muhammad or bell hooks were depicted in this manner that Beyonce or Viola Davis were?

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Does the short list of women mentioned by Troy, Pioneer  and Del represent examples of the question Mel asked, as to whether any black man  has championed the rights of black women and actually helped us inch up higher  at last place?"  The answer is no.    

And just like you men don't want to condemn all preachers or leaders because of a few bad ones, why are black women obligated to dismiss Beyonce and Viola who command the loyalty and admiration of many black sistas because they have made it on their own.  Nevermind that  Beyonce is superficial or Viola ambitious; they have not disgraced or demeaned black womanhood.  They are beautiful successful independent sistas.  Also it's been reported that they both quietly  give back to the black community via financial assistance.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Troy said:

 

If I have my way Black folks will exact a modicum of agency and select who we think is influential.  Now obviously we will not agree on who should be uplifted and highlighted as someone whose ideas are important. But at least we would not be focused on a product, like Beyonce. Nor would we present the people we revered in their undies.

 

Can you image if Dr. Ava Muhammad or bell hooks were depicted in this manner that Beyonce or Viola Davis were?

@Troy "depicted" means these women didn't have a choice in how they appeared.  Since they did have a choice, however,  it wouldn't matter to me in the least.   Well actually it does - the fact that a woman is covered up from head to toe as if her body is something to hide - pisses me off. But I respect a woman's right to choose.

How these women choose to appear is their choice. Emphasis on CHOICE.  

Labeling Beyonce or any woman who has a built a strong viable business, a product, as opposed to a business woman or a producer strips that woman of her agency, it puts her in the category of a whore (and unless she's chosen to be a prostitute) that label is sexist and offensive to me as a woman.  Please point out to me where you've labeled a man a product?  How about Ava Muhammed? Is she a product too? " She's a woman lifting another man" So I guess she's worthy exaltation?  ok.

Now of course, you can call any woman anything you want - but from "my front porch"  woo - chile.   

But I digress.

In 2007, a single black women's net median wealth was $5/ $100 or Negative/ 0 (w/children)

in 2013, It was $500 for single black women w/ no children and no degree and for single black women w/college degree it was $5000 

If the black church was instrumental in any of this socioeconomic activity uptick for black women  or even in the decrease of teenage pregnancy -the numbers would have shown long before 2007

-  I've shown my work and backed it with evidence.

President Obama's policies &  cabinet were the best thing to happen to black women Full Stop   -

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Mel

I don't think you're being fair.

You asked for ONE Black man who has helped Black women build their economic and social standing in this nation.

I actually gave you TWO.....Minister Farrakhan and Booker T. Washington.

You basically IGNORED them and their contributions, moved the goal posts further, and went on to argue 3 or 4 differnt tangents.


You remind me of that brother who complains about there not being any jobs  but when I tell him where to go find one where he's guaranteed to be hired that same day, he comes back with:

"Yeaaaah but......
How many hours they want you to work ?
How much they payin'?
Is it hard?
I'm tryna go back to school.....will they help pay for my education too?
If not, it ain't worth me applying!!!"



BTW.....
How long have you felt this way about Black women having it so bad and erradicating oppression?

I ask because you said you were in the Republican Party and I'd think that would be the LAST place for you to be in given your strong views on freedom of choice and women's upliftment.



 



Cynique

Your defense of Farrakhan rings hollow; provides no facts, figures or specifics just some generalities falling in line with a carefully crafted image about a power hungry man who was part of the regime who had Malcolm X assassinated and whose mentor Elijah Muhammad was a lecher who exploited young girls.

I don't know about all the accusations.....
What I DO KNOW is Mel asked for a Black man who uplifted Black women and I PROVIDED her with one (actually two).....mission accomplished.

How you can sit up there and say I provided "no specifics" when I just gave you a prime example of one of his female ministers struggling with cancer and how Minister Farrakhan uplifted her and helped her improve her life....is beyond my comprehension.

 

There are thousands of unsung teachers and preachers and organization who have inspired young black to turn their lives around. There's a black, all boys high school in Chicago where each June, 100 percent of the graduating class has been accepted by a college. And the nation of Islam is in no way affiliated with this inner city school.

Ok....and?

What does ANY of these wonderful things have to do with the good the Minister Farrakhan has been doing for Black men AND Black women for decades?

Did the good that these organizations do take AWAY from what Farrakhan did?



 

Nevermind that Beyonce is superficial or Viola ambitious; they have not disgraced or demeaned black womanhood. They are beautiful successful independent sistas.

Beautiful and successful yes.....
Independent NO.

They are still dependant on White people in the entertaiment industry to help make and distribute thier music; their White managers and agents to write their pay check and manage their money for them, and the White photographers for magazines like Time to get their image out to the public.

So not only are they dependent, their success is largely tied to the White power structure that granted it in the first place.

 

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@Pioneer1 Just because you don't like the responses Mel and i provided doesn't mean they don't have substance. it actually means that Mel's  question wasn't tailored to your specifications so you created your own criteria, which when met,  did not qualify the 2 women you named as having been  black women who were uplifted from the bottom of the totem poll, thanks to black men. Your 2 females   are actually just tokens because they wouldn't dare defy the men  who made themselves look good by "helping" these women. Unlike Beyonce and Viola, "what's-her-name" and "whoever"  are not powerful women but just big fish in little ponds.   Beyonce and Viola can pick and choose when it comes to what they do because they are rich, famous, powerful, independent individuals on the world stage who don't have to answer to anyone.  Famed author Toni Morrison is another example of this.  If you were really on your toes you might've come up with Venus and Serena Williams whose father was behind their world class status and independence.

Why is it so hard for you to come up with something other than anecdotal evidence when it comes to Farrakhan who basks in the myth that he has helped blacks other than the sheeple who adhere to his strict demands and keep him wealthy.  Apparently you admire him, so you lick his boots.  Obviously i don't like him and regard him as just another hustling control freak who feathered his own nest under the guise of being a religious do-gooder.    

I try to agree with you, Pioneer, but our opinions are just never in alignment.  :D

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7 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

You asked for ONE Black man who has helped Black women build their economic and social standing in this nation.

I actually gave you TWO.....Minister Farrakhan and Booker T. Washington.

@Pioneer1 OMG - I'm not getting through to you!  My question has not changed from the initial asking. 

Show your work... Show me how these two men help lift black women (not a few - the collective) up and out of the current socioeconomic position...

Even in your own citation it indicates many of the women were already working as teachers, Booker T - just put them to work so they could go out to the farms and teach under his banner.  How charitable of him.  lol

As Cynique mentioned, I'm not talking about one or two women, and definitely not the man's  followers  - I'm talking about Black women here in America!  And you know what I'm referring to because you asked me a question about it.  [see below]

President Obama didn't need to know me to help people who looked like me. I didn't even have to vote of him.  What he did by way of his policies meant every black women who desired to partake in the benefits could.  Now if you can share an example of a black man who did this for black women, collectively, that would answer my question. 

7 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

They are still dependant on White people in the entertaiment industry to help make and distribute thier music; their White managers and agents to write their pay check and manage their money for them, and the White photographers for magazines like Time to get their image out to the public.

Aside:  That's not how  the entertainment or specifically the music industry works. 

Both these women are independent contractors and/or corporations. 

Beyonce, Inc. is a corporation and Beyonce also owns her label, Parkwood Entertainment that is contracted with and distributed by Sony.   This means Beyonce is the co-executive producer on  on some if not all of her music with Sony.   As an executive producer, this means she pays her musicians, songwriters band, et al. It is reported that she owns her master recordings for some if not all of her music.   Side: Note: Rihanna, reportedly purchased her music recording masters as well.  Owning your music recording masters mean anyone who wants to use your music has to license it through you, the owner.... If someone uses Lemonade (the album) without a license they will be cutting a check to Beyonce, for what ever amount she wants. Anyone uses her songs commercially such as when 50 Shades of Gray Film used "Dangerously in Love" they paid Beyonce not Sony because it is reportedBeyonce owns that master recording. 

As for their Managers/Agents, managers and agents get a percentage of the deals they make... Artist pay their managers - it's not the other way around.   And magazines pay photographers for their work... but photographers are dependent on magazine distributions.  

I haven't followed Viola Davis' business dealings that closely - but it's true reported she has net worth of  $12 million and if Forbes is correct, Beyoncé's wealth is put at $350 million as Forbes' "America's Richest Self-Made women" then these women aren't dependent on no one or no thing. In America that's the economic goal - to own yourself. These two own themselves.  

8 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

How long have you felt this way about Black women having it so bad and erradicating oppression?

I ask because you said you were in the Republican Party and I'd think that would be the LAST place for you to be in given your strong views on freedom of choice and women's upliftment.

I've worked to eradicate oppression especially against black women since the age of consent - and before that I was learning about subjugation and oppression and how if effects mental development and achievement.  Therefore, we have to fight oppression on all fronts simultaneously or you'll have groups of people who simply can no longer fight and lose the will to live.

As for the Republican Party - they were not always overrun with the right wing nut-jobs that have taken over the party ...These stupid bedroom issues and radicalized christianity issues started creeping up in the last decade.  As I mentioned before,  I vote issues - and the platform of 41 (not so much 43) was admirable...When I was tapped to work with the Republicans around 2004, and appointed to office, the goal of our county republicans were to keep a balanced party and keep out the crazy racists.  I saw where I could make a difference.  Unfortunately, during Obama's administration the crazy wingnut racists got in -one is Governor  and now Illinois has a credit rating of near junk because he is willing to bankrupt the state.

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(Note: I thought this was posted yesterday--fortunately it was saved. Apologies if any issues I mentioned were already addressed)

Mel one can argue that the black church was instrumental in getting Obama elected. let's not make it seem like Obama is a one man show. Obama had the support of the black church before he even before he had the support of the Democratic Party. Wouldn't you agree? Either way it is a fact.

I noticed you have not provided facts to subtantiate Obama lowering team pregnancy. I'm sure I go make cases against all the Obama claims I just happened to know the time frame for the change in teen pregnancy. (I'm dictating my response into my cell phone)

We have data but often the explaination for the data eludes us. So we make up stories.

Now I won't try to debate your statement that Obama was the best thing for Black women, because that is purely subjective. But I know many black women who would say Jesus has done more if given a choice between the two (Mel you live in ATL you must know this).  

Limiting the choice to presidents one could argue that Kennedy did for Black women. One could also make a strong argument for lincoln. Personally I put both ahead of Obama in terms of impact on the lives of Black women. The reasoning should be somewhat obvious--even if you disagree.

Now I can't play that Tit for Tat there are many black men are products commodities at that (pro athletes) but I would argue that women are treated as products in a more dramatic fashion; let Beyonce's looks slip slightly and then we'll see how prominent she is, they'll move on to the sexy little girl (the next one wont need to be a great singer either).

Beyonce will be rich but she won't be on the cover of Time Magazine any longer. certainly not in her underwear--unless her life careens out of control.

I also presented a photograph of LeBron James being treated in a similar fashion, while I don't recall using the word product with him, I was making the same exact point.

Men singers aren't treated that way they can be fat or ugly and still have a great careers, but women don't have that luxury. Again that is not me, this is the culture and unfortunately many of us support that very aspect of the culture so it will continue. 

it was Time Magazine not me that had the women in their underwear and grossly exaggerated expressions. Now Time did that to the women, but they didn't depict any of the men that way did they?

And I'm not the one who the raising these issues; these issues are already been raised I'm just bringing them to the attention of this group. feminist as I pointed out are still talking about the Beyonce Time cover again I never heard of it until I was at the Book Festival.

Now while I think Bell hooks reaction was a bit extreme you can certainly understand why other feminist would be upset right? 

Also and you probably already know this about me I do not equate financial success with importance, relevance, or any of these other we value highly. Often the most financially successful people do the most low-down dirty things.

People willing to enslave Africans became fantastically wealthy but there were others who found it morally reprehensible and were unable to become nearly as rich as those that did. but wealth was not their primary motivation.  Some of the most conscious people I know struggle in relative obscurity essentially impoverished....

...but they are voiceless because Beyonces and kanyes (throwing in a dude lest I be labeled a sexist) are propped up in their places.

And we wonder why so many feel there is no black leadership...

 

 

 

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You guys act like having their picture appear on a Time Magazine cover  is the ultimate goal of these women and that the thought of not appearing on it again later will devastate them. TIME magazine is actually a dinosaur in the magazine business and is not that relevant any more.  It is now a skimpy little publication and its  news coverage is more digest  than in-depth .  I'm sure its circulation numbers are down.  As has been noted, who it has on its covers  helps to increase sales so  TIME is more dependent on celebrities then celebrities are on it.   Make no mistake about it, Beyonce and Viola are in control when it comes to their careers.

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@Troy Since you have nothing to back up your argument, you've provided  no evidence, nothing to validate your claims and I have; I'll accept your final post as a concession. 

President Obama has done more black women than any other black man in history.  And it's about time we black women get a bit of help.

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