Reflections in a Cracked Mirror

[Cynique]

I'm curious about what economic "System" exists or should exist wherein a country can "have it both ways",  - a utopian paradise where there is prosperity and equality for all, replete with a guarantee that everybody, both the ordinary and the extraordinary, will live the good life.

 

Socialism and Communism are rejected as ideal because they are about The State owning and controlling  everything, proceeding on the dubious theory that everybody will benefit equally as long as the masses are kept under control. Capitalism is criticized because it spawns the free enterprise opportunities that facilitate the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer via a process that financially rewards aggressive, shrewd, people, while relegating others into the "have-not" category. Dreamers have fantasized about the ascension of a benign, charismatic, dictator, - a wise, magnanimous, paragon of integrity and compassion who would exercise absolute control, eliminating the political rivalries that lead to dissention and corruption.  Dreamers, indeed. Nightmares are what Fascistic and Theocratic systems bring to mind with their fanatical nationalism and religious zealotry.  

 

So, just what is the solution to the problematic way things are now?  Democracy falls short for the same reason all the other systems fail. It is all about lofty aspirations that pale in the face of stark reality, a conclusion that should be obvious by virtue of the fact that because Mankind is imperfect, it is incapable of creating a perfect System. Society and civilization are in a never-ending pursuit of a world where everybody lives happily ever after, the hope for which continues to rise like a phoenix from the ashes of scorched empires. But how can Paradise ever exist on Earth when Humanity is its own worst enemy? 

 

In the twilight of my years where waking up every morning is an achievement, I continue to ask myself what System has enabled me to survive 89 trips around the sun? The answer is "I know that I know not". I just lived my life, ordering my priorities, following my instincts, embracing my spirituality, indulging my curiosity, resisting materialism, managing to sidestep many of the things that tripped up others of my race.  I retired from the work force in 1992, something that has allowed me to lead a life of leisure for 30 years, doing nothing to earn a monthly pension and the regular cost-of-living raises that come with it, money that more than covers all my expenses. I have a roof over my head, am surrounded by an extended family, have affordable health care, never owe the IRS, and whatever is going on in the world locally or globally has had very little impact on my life.  I'm just here, dangling under the radar, breathing air that doesn't even belong to me.

 

What's wrong with this picture?

[Delano]

I thought about this an the idea that I had was to make everything cost $1 so you could buy a plane and it would cost as much as a bicycle.

 

Which picture are you questioning? Being on the planet or the socioeconomic structure.?

 

It is possible to somewhat drop out of the system, provided that your wants are simple.

[Chevdove]

12 hours ago, Cynique said:

I'm just here, dangling under the radar, breathing air that doesn't even belong to me.

 

What's wrong with this picture?

 

Nothing is wrong with this picture, imo.

@Cynique You do more than dangle under the radar, you engage in many topics that humanity deals with today and offer much insight.

I wish I could experience some of the things you have mentioned.

Although, I don't owe the IRS now, I have endured that in the past and it was so stressful.

I don't know of anyone that have experience life as you have. I only wish.

I remember the late Doris Day, saying that she lived a wonderful life, May she RIP.

 

I was a longterm Substitute Teacher a while back for a couple of ELA classes [English and Language Arts], and I found it amazing that today, students deal with a semester of learing about the topic, DYSTOPIA SOCIETY. They learn today that it is impossible to live in a Utopian society and only a few brave young Protestant White males have disagreed. 

[ProfD]

As mentioned in another thread, there are countries on the planet that are pretty much utopian. 

 

Those countries have something in common...homogenous.  While there may be minorities living there, they know the deal.  

 

IMO, the United States as a melting pot is a blessing and a curse because it has failed to deal with its original sin.

 

Despite its flaws, millions of people thrived and survived in the imperfect union that is the United States.  It's not impossible.  But, there's no reason for it to be hard either. 

 

Unfortunately, the system of racism white supremacy and human greed makes life in the United States less utopian.

 

The amount of money the US prints, er, spends on defense and aborted space missions and other irrelevant sh8t could improve life for millions of people. 

[Cynique]

10 hours ago, Delano said:

Which picture are you questioning? Being on the planet or the socioeconomic structure.?

 

@Deli'm not really questioning anything.   I'm just sharing my thoughts, engaging in retrospection. I think your idea of everything costing a dollar is intriguing; typical of your unique way of viewing things. 

 

4 hours ago, Chevdove said:

You do more than dangle under the radar, you engage in many topics that humanity deals with today and offer much insight.

@ChevdoveThat's the thing.  I haven't really done a lot. I've just watched and commented. Now I kind of regret having not been more active and in the front line with those seeking reform. I'm a summarizer, a narrator, a "pen is mightier than the sword" type.   Whereas you delve right into subjects and thoroughly pursue your interests.  I admire that in you, along with the personal anecdotes you inject into your conversation.

 

4 hours ago, ProfD said:

As mentioned in another thread, there are countries on the planet that are pretty much utopian. 

 

Those countries have something in common...homogenous.  While there may be minorities living there, they know the deal.  

 

IMO, the United States as a melting pot is a blessing and a curse because it has failed to deal with its original sin.

 

Despite its flaws, millions of people thrived and survived in the imperfect union that is the United States.  It's not impossible.  But, there's no reason for it to be hard either. 

 

Unfortunately, the system of racism white supremacy and human greed makes life in the United States less utopian.

 

@ProfDThanks for your input.  Your observations are thought-provoking, as usual.

[Delano]

@Cynique I had another idea. People would receive goods based on their spirituality. So if you tried to steal you would lose more than what you stole. This particular system requires automation and magic. So it is truly Utopian.

Thank you for the compliment.

[Chevdove]

19 hours ago, Cynique said:

That's the thing.  I haven't really done a lot. I've just watched and commented. Now I kind of regret having not been more active and in the front line with those seeking reform. I'm a summarizer, a narrator, a "pen is mightier than the sword" type.   Whereas you delve right into subjects and thoroughly pursue your interests.  I admire that in you, along with the personal anecdotes you inject into your conversation.

 

Thank you a lot @Cyniquefor this! I am so amazed at your genious so, I really value what you have said.

 

[Pioneer1]

Cynique

 

I'm curious about what economic "System" exists or should exist wherein a country can "have it both ways",  - a utopian paradise where there is prosperity and equality for all, replete with a guarantee that everybody, both the ordinary and the extraordinary, will live the good life.

 

I'm not sure if I even WANT a society like this.

 

First of all, I'm not sure I want everything to be "equal" because:

1. If I work 40 or just 20 hours a week for my money, I don't want someone who doesn't work AT ALL to be given the same payment each week.

 

2. I feel if someone works hard or comes up with a new invention or plays the lottery or stocks and ends up getting rich...I don't think their wealth should be evenly distributed in the name of "equality".

 

It's my understanding that some Communist teachings advocate such a re-distribution.

I think that's extreme.
No need to go from one extreme to another. 

 

Rather than "equal" I think the word we're looking for is FAIR.

I think HEALTH CARE should be fair and everyone who is a citizen or resident should get it.  Perhaps that would come close to what people call "equality" but even that wouldn't be equal because some people need more medical assistance than others.

 

 

 

 

 

ProfD

 

The amount of money the US prints, er, spends on defense and aborted space missions and other irrelevant sh8t could improve life for millions of people. 

 

Exactly, which is why they choose NOT to spend it on the people but on toys and gadgets to shoot off into outer space.

If the plan is DEPOPULATION then why would they spend money to save the population?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Delano

 

I had another idea. People would receive goods based on their spirituality. So if you tried to steal you would lose more than what you stole. 

 

Who would judge who had more "spirituality" than the other?
And what standard would they use to measure this spirituality with?

Some say that just having a SPIRIT makes you a "spiritual person" whether you go through various rituals or not.

Further.....
If a person tried to steal food and other items necessary for survival because THEY were being denied and deprived because of prejudice and mistreatment....then would punishing them for theft really be justice?

[Cynique]

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

I'm not sure if I even WANT a society like this.

@Pioneer1I am not expecting people to agree with my unorthodox points of view.  That's why the mirror reflecting my thoughts is cracked.

[ProfD]

10 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

I'm not sure if I even WANT a society like this.

 

First of all, I'm not sure I want everything to be "equal"...

 

Rather than "equal" I think the word we're looking for is FAIR.

I like the term @Michel Montvert uses...Demosocialist. 

 

It seems to work in Nordic countries. But, it also ties back to a homogeneous society. 

 

Capitalism and socialism can peacefully coexist.

 

There will always be people who are more industrious and driven than others. They deserve to make as much money as they can generate.

 

OTOH, there will always be people who need help in one way or another. 

 

Unfortunately, American capitalism was built on  it's original sin and it has has been corrupted by greed.

 

Then, the United States isn't homogenous either. A lot of moving parts in this country. 

[Delano]

15 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Who would judge who had more "spirituality" than the other?
And what standard would they use to measure this spirituality with?

Some say that just having a SPIRIT makes you a "spiritual person" whether you go through various rituals or not.

Further.....
If a person tried to steal food and other items necessary for survival because THEY were being denied and deprived because of prejudice and mistreatment....then would punishing them for theft really be justice?

The reason this is Utopian is because it needs both technology and magic to be operational. The arbiter would be spirit which would not judge from a human perspective

 

 

[Michel Montvert]

10 hours ago, ProfD said:

I like the term @Michel Montvert uses...Demosocialist. 

 

It seems to work in Nordic countries. But, it also ties back to a homogeneous society. 

 

Capitalism and socialism can peacefully coexist.

 

There will always be people who are more industrious and driven than others. They deserve to make as much money as they can generate.

 

OTOH, there will always be people who need help in one way or another. 

 

Unfortunately, American capitalism was built on  it's original sin and it has has been corrupted by greed.

 

Then, the United States isn't homogenous either. A lot of moving parts in this country. 

Yes, socialism can mean a lot of things. The good socialism is democratic, not communist (Marxist-Leninist).

 

Some of the demosocialist nations are not homogenous. Belgium has 2 large ethnic groups (Flemish and Walloons) who pretty much hate each other. France and UK and others now have considerable Muslim minorities.

 

It works not only in Nordic countries. ALL the developed world (except the U$A) has demosocialism firmly established. That means all the EU countries plus Canada, NZ, Australia as well as a number of countries not consisting primarily of Europeans: Japan, Singapore, S. Korea, Israel, and the Arab Gulf states, being rich, also have much demosocialism in effect.

 

And I've got bad news for Republicans about demosocialism: IT WORKS!!!

[ProfD]

While a demosocialist nation may not be 100% homogenous, the minorities know their place.  As a result, those countries do not have to deal with racism as it is practiced in the United States. 

 

36 minutes ago, Michel Montvert said:

Belgium has 2 large ethnic groups (Flemish and Walloons) who pretty much hate each other. 

Case in point.  The overwhelming majority of the population is White. Just like within families, infighting among the same groups of people happens everywhere.

 

Australia has an interesting history.  The Europeans jacked the whole d8mn country from the indigenous people and relegated them to 2nd class citizens. White folks have been running the country for over 400 years.   Then, there was the Stolen Generation where they took mixed race kids from their parents and raised them in orphanages.  Since 1998, the Australians have been celebrating National Sorry Day for their mistreatment of indigenous people.

 

Demosocialism definitely works in countries where over 90% of the population is homogenous and the majority rule it. 

[Michel Montvert]

1 hour ago, ProfD said:

While a demosocialist nation may not be 100% homogenous, the minorities know their place.  As a result, those countries do not have to deal with racism as it is practiced in the United States. 

 

Case in point.  The overwhelming majority of the population is White. Just like within families, infighting among the same groups of people happens everywhere.

 

Australia has an interesting history.  The Europeans jacked the whole d8mn country from the indigenous people and relegated them to 2nd class citizens. White folks have been running the country for over 400 years.   Then, there was the Stolen Generation where they took mixed race kids from their parents and raised them in orphanages.  Since 1998, the Australians have been celebrating National Sorry Day for their mistreatment of indigenous people.

 

Demosocialism definitely works in countries where over 90% of the population is homogenous and the majority rule it. 

Perhaps from outside the "white" group it seems that we are all one big family but that is NOT the case. Ethnicity can be far more powerful than "race". Notice how many Germans and French were killed by each other over the centuries. Nobody said, "Oh wait, they're white!" Nobody cared.

 

You cannot say that Belgium is homogenous. It is not. Flemish and Walloons are NOT the same people. Any more than Irish and Scots-Irish in Ulster. Or Serbs and Bosnians.

 

Did the Hutu stop to think, "Wait, these Tutsis are BLACK like us", before killing them with machetes? No. Ethnicity is what mattered. not color.

 

Demosocialism works anywhere. There is no reason the ethnic configuration of a country matters. Where there is RACISM, nothing functions well. Racism is a poison which contorts everything. But even in countries like Spain with multiple languages and ethnic groups, demosocialism works just fine.

 

We need to improve the system in the USA. Demosocialism is the only way. We cannot give up on it because, oh well, we've got too many ethnic groups! That's just laying down for the racist white-rights.

[ProfD]

4 minutes ago, Michel Montvert said:

Perhaps from outside the "white" group it seems that we are all one big family but that is NOT the case. Ethnicity can be far more powerful than "race". 

 

You cannot say that Belgium is homogenous. It is not. Flemish and Walloons are NOT the same people. Any more than Irish and Scots-Irish in Ulster. Or Serbs and Bosnians.

 

Did the Hutu stop to think, "Wait, these Tutsis are BLACK like us", before killing them with machetes? No. Ethnicity is what mattered. not color.

 

Demosocialism works anywhere. There is no reason the ethnic configuration of a country matters. Where there is RACISM, nothing functions well. Racism is a poison which contorts everything. But even in countries like Spain with multiple languages and ethnic groups, demosocialism works just fine.

 

We need to improve the system in the USA. Demosocialism is the only way. We cannot give up on it because, oh well, we've got too many ethnic groups! That's just laying down for the racist white-rights.

Belgium and Ireland are homogenous in terms of race.  

 

As I mentioned above, infighting within a race has been happening since the beginning of humanity.  Ethnic cleansing and other dust ups similar to the current *war* between Russian and Ukraine is an example.

 

The Hutus and Tutsis had their differences but they didn't come to major blows until the colonists (Germans and Belgians) instigated it.  Interesting how Europeans have always traveled around the globe starting sh8t. 

 

Racism white supremacy is definitely the poison that keeps the world out of balance.  Peace and harmony and demosocialism cannot thrive where racism rules the roost. 

[Pioneer1]

ProfD

 

I like the term @Michel Montvert uses...Demosocialist. 

 
Well, I'm not crazy about ANY term with the word "demo" in it.
The word "demo" is really related to the Greek term for demon.

Democracy doesn't mean "rule of the people".
It literally  means "rule of demons" in Greek.

 

 

 

 

It seems to work in Nordic countries. But, it also ties back to a homogeneous society. 

 

True.
 

 

 

 

 

Capitalism and socialism can peacefully coexist.

 

Absolutely

 

 

 

 

 

There will always be people who are more industrious and driven than others. They deserve to make as much money as they can generate.

 

 

That's what I'm talking about and this is why I can't really get with a system that denies a person credit for going that extra mile and working harder or being more clever to secure wealth and resources for themselves.
As long as they aren't harming their fellow man in the process.

 

 

 

 

Then, the United States isn't homogenous either.

 

Yes.
That's one of the things that makes this nation so great.
Our diversity.
It makes for a beautiful culture and a lot of beautiful people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Michel Montvert

 

 

 Flemish and Walloons are NOT the same people. Any more than Irish and Scots-Irish in Ulster. Or Serbs and Bosnians.

When you say they are different...
Are you talking just culture, or do they tend to have different physical features from eachother like skin complexion, eye color, growing hair, ect...??

[Michel Montvert]

3 hours ago, ProfD said:

Belgium and Ireland are homogenous in terms of race.  

 

As I mentioned above, infighting within a race has been happening since the beginning of humanity.  Ethnic cleansing and other dust ups similar to the current *war* between Russian and Ukraine is an example.

 

The Hutus and Tutsis had their differences but they didn't come to major blows until the colonists (Germans and Belgians) instigated it.  Interesting how Europeans have always traveled around the globe starting sh8t. 

 

Racism white supremacy is definitely the poison that keeps the world out of balance.  Peace and harmony and demosocialism cannot thrive where racism rules the roost. 

Demosocialism does not require inter-group harmony! And the notion that "race" is of paramount importance is only pertinent in circumstances such as the USA where we have been trained to obsess on race. For most of history. nobody cared about it. And since it's not a valid concept, scientifically, it is really more of a sick fantasy. Race does not exist. Racism does, unfortunately.

 

Check out the rampages of the Kanuri in West Africa. We can find no white people involved in inciting them to the extreme violence they committed against other Africans, unless you want to call Arabs "white".

 

The elites, the rich, do not want to elevate the lower classes regardless of their "race". They've done so when forced democratically. Demosocialism resulted when democracy overwhelmed plutocracy and aristocracy. The rulers are doing what they can to prevent this from happening in the USA.

 

UK has a lot of black people in its population. Yet their demosocialism works fine. And a lot of Pakistanis also. I don't think that is an inevitability, that ethnic or racial diversity inhibits a society from practicing social justice. If this were true then to have decent societies we'd all have to segregate into homogenous groupings. But that ship has sailed... there is extensive diversity in many places.

 

Perhaps one dynamic which works toward what you're saying is that where there is diversity, it is easier for the rulers to divide the working class against itself. Certainly this has happened in the USA, since the 17th century in Virginia, in fact. But that is only one trick in their bag... though divide-and-conquer is a very effective one. to be sure.

 

But there is no hard and fast rule saying that we cannot develop demosocialism in the USA. Hell, if everyone voted, the Republicans could not win an election. There are complex causes for our backwardness. I am not comfortable blaming "racial" diversity for it.

1 minute ago, Pioneer1 said:

ProfD

Well, I'm not crazy about ANY term with the word "demo" in it.
The word "demo" is really related to the Greek term for demon.

Democracy doesn't mean "rule of the people".
It literally  means "rule of demons" in Greek.

 

 

There will always be people who are more industrious and driven than others. They deserve to make as much money as they can generate.

 

 

That's what I'm talking about and this is why I can't really get with a system that denies a person credit for going that extra mile and working harder or being more clever to secure wealth and resources for themselves.
As long as they aren't harming their fellow man in the process.

 Flemish and Walloons are NOT the same people. Any more than Irish and Scots-Irish in Ulster. Or Serbs and Bosnians.

When you say they are different...
Are you talking just culture, or do they tend to have different physical features from eachother like skin complexion, eye color, growing hair, ect...??

In fact democracy comes from the word "demos", referring to a community. The word from which we get demon is daemon. So, democracy means literally "rule of the people". I can find nothing wrong with that concept.

 

Demosocialism does not punish ambition. One can still succeed and do things. It just ensures that there is not an underclass of poor. of disenfranchised, of people without medical care or opportunity.

 

As for differences... we in the USA think that "race" is the ultimate difference. From here we can look at Belgium and think they're all the same people. That is not how they see it. That is our obsession. We were all raised in this society where "race" is made important, artificially, as a means of oppressing us. But that is not objective reality. To the Belgians, a Walloon and a Flemish person are as different as a black and a white in the USA, in the perceptions of the people. We cannot explain or understand Belgium using USA concepts!

 

There is no reason we could not implement demosocialism here. It exists in part, where we have food stamps, Medicare, the ACA, etc. But ours is watered down and so incomplete that it does not solve our basic inequalities. The best politics one could pursue in the USA, in my opinion, is to fight for that, demosocialism for ALL, and it is attainable. But with so many people asleep... we can't accomplish anything.