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@Pioneer1 you know I've defended the NOI on many occassions, because they have given structure and meaning to many people the formerly incarcerate for example. There would be no Malcom X without the Nation. However, i dont think most people need the NOI and their restrictions. Ali sounded like a throwback because he reflected the Nation's teachings. But that makes Ali no different than many Christians who call homosexuals an abomination and believe the world is 6K years old. As far as Mel's ability to speak on the subject, I see it this way: She is not as racist as you (and I). Intellectually i know there is only one race. However I could not marry a white woman, i would not want to deal with all the famillial and cultural stress that come with that kind if relationship. Plus I'm not particularly attracted to white women; that is probably because I'm still a little racist, but that is a function of being raised in a segregated community in white racist America. In that regard, @Mel Hopkins and @Delanomore evolved that we are.

To Guest Poster, Thank you for this statement. Another great comment and in my experience this happens in so many other ways too! I remember when I was in high school for two years in Texas before my father was transferred to another state, how one day, over the intercom, the principal announced a new school rule-- even though, I did not do this, it was happening, but for a reason: He said that 'no one was allowed to come to school with hair rollers. LOL. Now, at this time, I didn't need to do this because my mother said she had gotten tired of dealing with my sisters and me and our Nappy hair, so out of the blue, she drove us to her friend a beautician, sat us down in the chair and we were all given 'RELAXERS'. Trouble was, at this time, relaxers were kind of new and, well, it really wasn't a relaxer for BLack AFrican Hair, but it was really 'A PERM'. So, our hair became brittle and eventually, short. But in texas, a lot of black girls still wore the large afros but, the climate in Texas is horrible on natural hair in the morning. So a lot of Black girls would cover their hair rollers with scarves and then to into the cool building bathroom, take the rollers out and all was well. So, the Black students voiced their opinions, loudly in this way: And, I was a witness to this occurrence, every day, all throughout the day. Every time I went into the bathroom, my eyes would burn and tears would flow. I would cough and this is because, many of the White girls at this time, were obssessed with 'THE FARAH FAUCETTE HAIRDO' and in order to hold this style, they would bring cans and cans of hair spray, go into the bathroom and spray and spray and spray!!! LOL. So, when the principal made the new school rule against the Black girls, this was their defense!!! No one even gave it a thought about what the White girls were doing, but all the negative attention went towards the Black girls who wanted to rock the big Jayne Kennedy fro. So, while I do believe that there should be some type of standard and I would not like it if this 'free choice' included Black men suddenly styling thier hair with relaxers as @NubianFellow so amazingly showed the other viewpoint, I do feel that Black women are attacked more than anyone else.

Guest Loren Carle Guests Report post (IP: 204.113.88.245) This guest post was buried in the "Black Women are Beautiful' thread, invisible because it had not been approved by a monitor. I rarely exercise my monitor privilege on this site but this was an interesting commentary so i took the liberty of approving it and hope Troy doesn't have a problem with my doing so. Cynique. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted 1 hour ago This topic hurts my heart. I am a white man, and so feel that very little I have to say in the matter will be helpful. However, here goes. My personal response over the few decades of my adult life has been a decision to have my natural facial hair, and a relaxed attitude to my head hair. I don't spend any money on shaving stuff, and ask my wife to cut my beard the way she likes best once in a while. I keep my head hair in some kind of reasonable state of tidiness, without thinking too much about it. I used to have it long and in a braid, hoping for solidarity with Native American men. I'm not sure anymore that the effect of a long, thin blonde braid on a white man with a red beard was the desired one. I recognise that I probably experience a lot of privilege in making these decisions, but I hope it's one way that I can reject the privilege afforded to shaven, short-haired white men. The difficulty seems to lie in black women being forced to choose their battles. Do their employers or co-workers comment on their self-presentation in ways that give them fear for their income that supports their children? This is what should not be! I would like to hear from black women about this topic. If we men, of any origin, presume to tell any women how they should appear, it's just the same old sad story of men presuming to dictate how women should present themselves, expressing the same old sick power dynamic. We gotta just stop, guys, and love the women and men we love by honouring their dignity with acceptance, support, and appreciation of their own personal aesthetic—wait for it—choices. What we can do is examine work on our own attitudes honestly and privately, without looking for kudos (or to get laid) for being woke: nobody owes us anything. We need then to notice how those attitudes are reflected in whom we find attractive, and whether and how we express that attraction. peace

Pioneer there's a difference between specifity and generalities. I'll make this very understandable. Mel said man, you say men. Are white people better than black people not in my personal experience. You clearly have a different experience. You are conflating colour, wealth and Class. In the day time I worked in financial services met and saw the heavy weights in the field. Saw Michael Milken on the elevator at Drexel Burnham, said hi to Reggie Lewis who was on his way to meet Michael Milken, was at a meet and greet with Max Chapman, and spoke with Ken Chenault, meet presidential candidate Michael Dukakis. Had a personal chat with Peter Lord about astrology. He is in the Family Stand and he wrote Touch for Paula Abdul. I hung with artists musicians and night people. I have experienced different circles. And like i said earlier it doesn't make me more evolved. It just means my perspective is broader. You clearly have a different temperament, experience and perspective. Its pointless for me to argue with Anyone who takes their world to be the entire world.

"Other words", being your words which automatically voids their substance. Not all white men are powerful or intelligent or kind, obviously. (That's your subconscious concession to white supremacy) If I find those 3 traits in a kind, secure white man who treats me with consideration and respect, then he's easy to find appealing. And i certainly don't have to justify what would attract me to a white man. It's my prerogative to prefer one over a black man like you. Fortunately, there are other black men around who are not like you who, themselves, are secure, powerful, intelligent, and kind.

Loren (if you're reading this thread) Lol, I haven't met too many men (Black or White) who call themselves "Loren" but..... As is typical, you're saying all the "right" things to make people like and respect you. You're definately saying what Black women WANT to hear, and I wouldn't have expected you to say anything other than that. After all....that's how you were able to.......well.....never mind. But I'm curious as to why you as a White man want or atleast wanted "solidarity" with Native Americans? Chev What color/race was this school Principle?

Beleiefs are a function of experience, and expectations. I didn't like white people for the longest because I was bullied. In my 30's I met a lot of white European artists and people that were artsy farsty. And most of my friends were illegal. And even though i wasn't any artist I was accepted.

I don't think America will ever be prepared to really know what a person like me thinks about this issue initially. I am screaming inside because when I hear about these Me Too cases, I stuck on about 200+ years of the kind of Me Too stories about Slave Masters and etc. that will never be brought to light in this AMerican court that way that it has been for these women!!! Do I have Me Too stories . . . smh. smh. smh. ... Me!? Get retribution!? LOL. What a joke. But yeah, these stories are horrible!!! HIs last statement-- WOW!!! Creepy. He seems to have demoralized these women! Did he pay them money, or did they get some kind of gain way back when this happened to try and keep them quiet? Has he admitted to any of these acts in court? BAsed on my personal experiences, I don't have much faith in this court system, but, why would these women lie? I am beginning to think they are telling the truth.