Pioneer1

Despite all that I said about Bill Cosby and not giving him a pass for sexually assaulting women...... Something about this guilty verdict isn't sitting right. I don't like it. I can't explain why I don't like it....but I just don't.

K2 The way you think, and speak, Pioneer1, would cause one to deduce you are White. But, I trust brother Troy's insistence you are not a White man, or a troll. First you accused me of being a gay mason. Now you're accusing me of being a White troll....lol. Based on your BASELESS accusations, one could come to the conclusion that you're a paranoid schizophrenic who misses his medication from time to time....lol. But I won't accuse you of being one..... I just want to figure out something from you. Since you seem to be obsessed with the notion of common sense and insists that it's universal. Please give me a short list of COMMON SENSE IDEALS and BELIEFS that are shared among everyone across the globe regardless of race or culture........ 　 Troy Pioneer I wonder if you would tell Odell to his face that you thought he was a white woman? Why would I say that about him to his face OR behind his back? And I'm curious as to the reason you asked me what book I was reading. I thought it was leading to something.....lol. Mel @Pioneer1 actually sideburns can be achieved naturally and grown Naturally by HUMANS of all races - but mostly in women because women tend to grow sideburns ONLY since most women have a more difficult time growing a beard - which is exactly what sideburns attach to if a man allows his face hair naturally I'm not sure what point you're making, but few women can actually grow SIDEBURNS because sideburns are actually parts of a BEARD where they meet the temple and most women can't grow beards. If you google the image of sideburns right now the vast majority of images you get will be male. Women with sideburns are only about as common as women with beards.....lol. but most men trim their sideburns and shave their beards - for aesthetic reasons - dare I say to look more like white men I'd be careful saying "most men" without adding THIS CULTURE to it. Most men in THIS CULTURE shave their beards because of it's ties to professionalism, but in Muslim and Hindu cultures where there are billions of men collectively.....beards are quite common. Further...... I'm not so sure being without a beard puts you in the "wanna be white " category. For one thing look at the Nation of Islam: These men go without beards and they are almost as far from wanting to be White men as you get...lol. Also, of all the races.....Caucasians whether they're in Europe or the Middle East are among the hairiest races and Caucasian men tend to grow the longest beards and have the most body hair. Even as youth, you see a White man in a pair of shorts and you see all types of hair legs...lol.

Troy I forgot to mention back when you sarcastically asked was Odell Beckham trying to be a White woman...... Believe it or not MANY young Black men today are both consciously and subconsciously trying to be White women! They feel being a "man" is too hard and comes with too much stress and frankly, many of them are confused on what manhood is. They look at how White women are pampered in this society and how they seem to be able to say and do anything they want and everyone comes to their rescue and comforts them and does favors for them and growing up watching this......many young Black men have come to the conclusion that life as a WHITE WOMAN is much easier than trying to grow up and be a Black man.

The question I have is, how much responsibility does the Black Church have in the spread of HIV? -Teaching and encouraging Black people to practice morality that was invented by Caucasians which basically leads to sexual supression and deception. -Making Black people feel so guilty about sex and sexual encounters to the point that they feel they DESERVE any type of sexually related disease they get and therefor are reluctant to find a cure. If Black people were smart and organized in the way they SHOULD be by now....WE would have came up with a cure for HIV and the other diseases our community have been afflicted with instead of waiting on White people to come up with them. Infact, we would have had our own hospitals and medical centers by now. Man......... As I type this, tears actually come up in my eyes just envisioning what we COULD HAVE been and how much progress we COULD HAVE made by now if we were smart and industrious enough. I don't know if everything can be blamed on racism or if Black stupidity is seriously a major part of the problem. Why, why, why......

LOL!!!!

K2 Common sense isn't common to everyone. I personally believe that what's common sense to most White men isn't common sense to most Black men.....and probably differs between Native American and East Asian men. What's "common sense" to you really depends on your cultural up bringing and the structure of your mind. Not only because they "feel like it," but also because it could be part of their indoctrination into womanhood. May I ask you, again, as to why you choose 'sideburns' as part of the image you admire? Did you not say, sideburns reflect 'manliness,' or were you mimicking White boys of "love fest hippie age?" Sideburns can be achieved NATURALLY and are grown NATURALLY by men of most races. Any man who can grow hair and a beard can grow sideburns. The only men who can't may be Native Americans who generally don't grow beards. 　 　 　 Troy when was the last time you read a book and what was the title? About a couple months ago......Wheat Belly!

There are some things I trust males over females. There are other things I trust females over males. Usually when it comes to financial business I trust females over males because so many men tend to be so greedy and ruthless when it comes to making money. But when it comes to sexual issues I usually trust males over females because many women are more confused and more deceptive in their true sexual feelings. It's not necessarily their fault, but it's the way society forces them to be. But to show you how deep it is, I know a lot of women who would rather see their brothers, husbands, and boyfriends POOR AND IGNORANT.....broke to the point that THEY would have to support them.....rather than see them wealthy and prosperous and independent. Why? Because of the underlaying fear that if these Black men get right then they may leave THEM and to go a White woman to give all their money to.....like so many have unfortunatly done. But this fear leads to mistrust and the inability for so many Black men and women to help eachother become successful.

Mel Ok, then you understand that this is EXACTLY what you are doing when you represent YOUR experiences and observations as truth. At least the studies that contain the statistics include an abstract, raw data and , methodology of how they've come to the conclusion. I understand the point that you're making that you'd rather trust a systemic method of collecting data rather that simply trusting heresay. My issue is WHO the data is coming from and how trustworthy are they. What are their motives for collecting the data in the first place and do they have a history or presenting false data? You can't call all data or information someone or some institution presents to you - "facts". Because all of it may not be true. You yourself just said: "Since I spent several years in broadcast news - I don't trust anything I hear on the radio/television. I understand how broadcast news works" You KNOW data and figures can be manipulated and skews and out right fabricated depending on the motive of whoever is presenting them so you out of everyone in here should have the most understanding of my skepticism! So unless a TRUSTWORTHY person or people are the ones presenting the facts then why should you trust them? 　 Del Of you hear news story from credible sources you have more confidence it is true. However even on science or scientific experiments there is bias. EXCELLENT point. If the person or people who are presenting this information to you (I don't call them facts unless they've been verified) have a HISTORY of being dishonest and bias...why would you believe their data? 　 　 　 K2 After all, can't Black women attain their own identity of beauty, if only for fun, without trying to be some-one else? And my answer is.....OFCOURSE they can. And they do, with styles like twists and locks and braids. But when they dye their hair BLONDE this it's a clear indication that they are attempting to present themselves as closer to "White".....whether they're doing this consciously or subconsciously. The same goes for when they "relax" and straighten out their kinky hair. It's clear that they see straighter hair as more attractive because of it's association with Whiteness.

Troy Rather than having me "prove" the validity of the data others have already collected, why don't YOU prove anything you've said. I've already asked you twice to provide proof that white women were the first to dye their hair blue or that Black women dye they hair blue to be like white women. It's history. It happened in the distant past and is no longer tangible. Unless I had videos of the event, I couldn't prove it any more than you could DISPROVE it. However based on evidence such as art work, paintings, and historical references we know of no cases where Black women either in Africa or the Americas were dyed their hair blue. Only in the United States AFTER White women started doing it atleast back in the 50s, do we find Black women starting to dye their hair blue. There are no reports, art work, sculptures, paintings, ect....in Africa of Black women making their hair BLONDE. Again, the only reports of Black women who dye their hair blonde is in the Americas AFTER coming into contact with White women.

"Forget everything you've seen...HERE'S the truth!"

Mel I've only known one Black woman who I knew FOR SURE committed suicide and she was suffering from depression as well as some social issues. I didn't say some statistics didn't contain facts, I said you couldn't VERIFY them. How can you verify a bunch of numbers and other information written down on paper or on a screen? You don't know if what you're quoting is true or not. Troy When presented with new information that is VERIFIED AS TRUE then ofcourse I will update my beliefs, but simply TELLING me that "such and such" is the truth or is a fact doesn't pass the sniff test for me. What type of fool simply believes anything anyone tells them and even changes their life accordingly? No, PROVE TO ME that what you're saying is indeed truth.....and my idea of proof isn't some numbers on a sheet of paper.

Although it's not a part of THIS thead, in a couple other threads we're talking about feminism and it's impact on the Black community. Say what you want but atleast when women get into positions of power whether it's economic or political.....they focus on helping other women and aren't bashful in doing so! Hillary Clinton BRAGGED about empowering women as much as she could not only as First Lady but also in the Senate and talked about what she WOULD DO had she become President. Michelle Obama as also big on empowering Black girls and women. Infact, if a woman is in a prominent position in this nation and doesn't atleast claim she's all about helping to empower women and girls....she is shamed to shit. And you know what? I ain't even mad at them! That's what BLACK PEOPLE COLLECTIVELY SHOULD BE DOING! When we get into positions of power financially, socially, or politicially we should UNASHAMEDLY talk about helping empower Black people in America and right the wrongs and injustices that have been inflicted on our community. But instead so many of these negroes are so damn scared of getting fired or losing what little position they have that not only will they NOT help other Black people, they won't even mention racism and deny it's existence in some cases. Some negroes are so scary that they'll even come to work in a red "Make America Great Again" cap sitting on their head if they think it'll keep them their jobs.....lol.

Mel and Troy I think you two are confusing FACTS with STATISTICS. Facts are TRUTHS. That which actually IS. While statistics are just a bunch of numbers and other data whipped up by "whoever" for whatever purpose. Some of it may be true, some of it may be false. But if YOU aren't the one who compiled the information you're quoting and definately didn't gather information yourself.....YOU DON'T KNOW whether the stats you're quoting are true or not. How do you two know all of these "statistics" you're quoting are true if you have no way of verifying it outside of anecdotal experience or observation? I don't debate and discuss the way White folks TAUGHT ME to discuss and debate....which is simply regurgitating a bunch of questionable figures and data that THEY put out or atleast approve of. Because it's an easy way to decieve people and spread disinformation in order to manipulate the public. To take "stats" that you snatched off some web source or got out of a book and equate that with verified experience is silly....in my opinion. Say what you will about anecdotes but atleast you KNOW it has truth and merit to it because you've experienced it or observed it for yourself.

There is NO WAY IN HELL anyone is going to sit here and tell us that Black and "indigenous" (whatever that means) women are being killed by Black and "indigenous" men at a rate more than White men are killing White women. All of these White men committing murder suicides all over the nation where they're killing themselves AS WELL AS their wives, children, and even the family dogs ....every day. There are probably many many more that haven't made the media and probably have gone unknown because of rich White men paying people off to cover it up! There is no comparison. No way. Troy is right in the other thread....I DO NOT CARE what the "stats" say. Del Troy and Pioneer I have a problem when you say feminism is less important or even dangerous to the black cause. Then rationalise black male violence towards black women. I'm not trying to rationalize or justify Black male violence towards Black women. Just putting it in perspective. Especially given the INSTITUTIONALIZED violence and oppression that not only White women but women of ALL races have faced at the hand of White men for over 5 centuries. Black men BRIEFLY had the right to vote before White women during the period of Reconstruction right after slavery. We also held a lot of high Federal political offices in Congress as well as being judges and sheriffs during that period.

This has little to do with sexism and more to do with attacking Black males and Black masculinity. This entire "feminism" movement among Black women is a farce because Black men have NEVER treated Black women in the institutionally sexist and abusive way that White men have treated White women.. Yes, Black men on an individual level have been abusive and done wrong, but we have never CODIFIED it or put in in the law or made religions out of debasing women like Whites have. Yet I don't see White feminists or White women in general fighting White men like so many Black feminists fight straight Black men. These Black women are being USED by both racist White men as well as White feminist women to destabilize the Black community and cause anger and chaos among us by further turning Black women against Black men. And the next step after turning them against Black men is to turn them ON to White men with money. If you notice, there's a lot more Black women walking around on the arms of White men today. Some of these same Black women who claimed to be so strong and independent when it came to Black men just a couple decades ago, now READILY submit themselves to the authority of White men with money and leave all of their "feminism" behind.

Del Pioneer is your money in a Black Bank? Not anymore. I live over 75 miles from the city and the Black banks there don't have a lot of branches so it's not so convenient for me to keep my money there. But if I still lived in the Detroit area I would. 　 Troy Pioneer it was not just "laziness" that stopped Black people from opening banks. There were many structural problems that make establishin a bank very difficult. Restrictions on getting property, loans, permits, etc. If we were talking about ONE bank or ONE individual, I might buy that. But over the years I've discoverd that collectively speaking people can pretty much find a way to do what they REALLY want and have a desire to do. The major reason that there aren't more Black banks with a broader reach has less to do with regulation and red tape and more to do with the LACK OF DESIRE of so many Black people to be financialy independent and being too lazy to put in the work to run a well managed financial institution. Keep it real.....as long as White banks are taking their money and giving them loans they don't WANT to manage their own money. Too many of our people....even those with money...would rather buy cars, shoes, and enjoy themselves and let White people do the "head ache" work. 　 K2 But for real bro....... If Black people currently or have occupied nearly every position at nearly every level of government in this nation since the 60s.....WHO IS DENYING THEM????? If White people in a particular office is enacting laws and policies to discriminate....why the hell aren't Black people in THAT SAME OFFICE enacting laws and policies to counter that? If White bankers and politicians are working together to funnel money from the government to THEIR institutions and commuites....... Then why the hell aren't BLACK bankers and politicians working together to siphon some of that goverment money to THEIR institutions and communities? My point is..... With as many excuses as Black people are making about being discriminated against by Whites in power....when THEY finally have an opportunity to get in that same position most of them seem to sit on thier ass and do nothing to right the wrongs committed.

Mel Do you have any proof or evidence of this claim? Yes, plenty....... Look at how many Black girls in parts of the United States and especially in the Carribean are using skin lightening cream. They don't like themselves....because of low self esteem....so they want to look like someone else. Look at the amount of Black girls who dye their hair blonde or get blonde highlights. Again, they don't like themselves...because of low self esteem. Look at how so many Black girls in this society behave in a loud and aggressive way as compared to many other races of girls and even Black girls from Africa who tend to be more feminine. Just like a MAN with low self esteem will be shy and passive....the opposite of masculinity. A WOMAN with low self esteem will be loud and obnoxious and aggressive......the opposite of femininity. If a girl has low self esteem and feels she can't live up to the standards of womanhood, she'll stop trying to be "lady like"....a sign of low self worth or self esteem. Even the no-good men that so many Black girls CHOOSE to date is a sign of low self esteem because they feel they don't deserve anyone better. The suicide rate for Black girls in this society today is among the highest it's ever been. The proof and evidence of how so many Black females in this society REALLY (despite the front so many put on about being "strong" and "confident") feel about themselves is all over the place for those who are observant.

Two points.................... 1.A feminist....according to the very word itself....is focused on the advancement of that which is FEMININE. So how can it promote "equality" when it's focus is one sided? If it were truly about equality then why not change the name to femino-masculinist.....or a masculo-femininist.....in an attempt to denote a more equal focus on BOTH genders? 2. I have to question the concept of "equality". I personally believe in JUSTICE. If you say give everyone a fair opportunity to earn what they deserve and live the type of life they want to live without restrictions and putting obstacles in their way because of race or sex.....that's one thing. But when you talk about EQUALIZING things between men and women socially, economically, ect.....I wonder how can you do that without eventually being UNFAIR to an innocent person? Should we make sure that every job has the EXACT SAME number of male and female managers and employees on it? Should we go into every neighborhood, tally up the sexes of the home owners , and MAKE SURE that there are just as many female home owners as male home owners. And if we find that MORE WOMEN own their homes than the men then should we TAKE SOME HOMES AWAY from the women to equalize them with the men? Right now the jails are overwhelmingly men, should we focus on letting more men go....or focus on incarcerating more women? See my point about this concept of "equality"?

Mel She didn't choose her complexion but she never let's folk forget that she's a Black woman. Her image is destroying the self esteem of too many Black girls. She looks NOTHING like the average Black female. She pretty much looks like a WHITE WOMAN with a little soul. But she's routinely called beautiful and attractive by the media, which psychologically says that the only time Black women are beautiful is when they look nearly White. She's talented for sure, but she wasn't the ONLY Black woman with talent. She was CHOSEN by the powers in the entertainment industry for a reason. 　 Troy again I assert that changing ones appearance to what you perceive to be as trying to look white is a narrow viewpoint. The sisters dying their hair blue are not trying to look white? They are trying to IMITATE White women because White women were the ones who started dying their hair blue and red and green and all of these funny colors and Black women started imitating them. It's the same with the Black girls who get their eyebrows and tongues and even their clitorises pierced. The only reason they are doing it is because White women started doing it and in ignorance they are imitating White women. And it's the same with Black men getting all of these tatooes all over their bodies. They too are imitating White men in their ignorance. I know plenty of White men and White women change and alter their appearance but they KNOW why they're doing it. Many Black people don't know why they do what they do, but they're really doing it to imitate White people. Take cigarettes for example......... Black people lived in Africa for thousands of years and didn't smoke cigarettes and probably didn't even have a desire to. But millions of Africans smoke today! Why? Because cigarettes taste good or gives them long lasting erections??? Hell no....they do it because WHITE PEOPLE smoked them. And because White people started smoking cigarettes and Black people wanted to imitate them and be like them.....THEY started smoking cigarettes too and got addicted! My point is, Black men and women have ignorantly imitated White people for centuries in a desparate attempt to get be more like them and be better "liked" by them. They can tell themselves whatever they like about "choosing" to do what they feel like doing or wanting to change things up....but the truth of the matter is much of what Black people do is either a conscious or subconscious attempt to imitate and get closer to White people....whom they feel are the "ideal people" to be like.

I'm not a big fan of the idea for a number of reasons two of which are........... 1. I think it will be a way to CONTROL people. Unless they make it an absolutely guranteed right that MUST be afforded to every citizen of the nation.....meaning they can't take away your monthly check no matter what.....then racists and hateful people in power will just use any excuse to start denying people their benefits like they're doing with welfare and other government benefits. "Oh....you committed a felony? Sorry...no check for you EVER AGAIN!!! Oh.....you failed the montly drug test? Sorry....no check for you for ONE YEAR!!!" ....and so on and so on. 　 2. People are actually missing the fact that it's not the lack of jobs or even the lack of MONEY that's actually causing people distress. It's the inability to pay for BASIC NECESSITIES. All over America people can't afford their rent and house notes, they can't afford their medical insurance, they can't afford to eat properly. It doesn't matter how much money someone gives you, if it's not enough to COVER THE BASIC expenses of living in your community....it won't be enough. Plus, just like college costs went through the roof when the government started giving everyone thousands of dollars worth of loans so the university KNEW they would get the money...... If those who own your house or apartment KNOW you're gonna get atleast $1000 extra a month they are likely to CHARGE YOU another $900 a month if not the full grand on top of what you're already getting by with! Rather than giving people a stagnant basic income that won't be enough to cover your bills, they should guaranted everyone standard housing, certain amount of food, voucher for clothes, and free medical care.

I agree. The AfroAmerican community faces a multitude of problems but among the biggest is the PSYCHOLOGICAL problems so many in our community face. -immorality (which fuels crime, violence, and dysfunctional families) -low self esteem -intellectual impairment -substance abuse and addictions -laziness and lack of "professionalism" in their activities If you just GAVE everyone a million dollars each.....as long as they had these problems the money would not only NOT help them but would probably make their situation worse by financing their self destruction.

Ofcourse Black women have been putting on different color wigs and bleaching and blondnig their hair for decades. But a major reason for this is because many Black women have hated the way they look, hated themselves period, and have wanted to look like and be like White women for decades! The self-hatred in Black America has existed since slavery and is well over 400 years old. I understand what you're saying about a sister wanting to look good, keep herself up, and be at her best......but the problem is a lot of our women think LOOKING WHITE (or atleast less Black) IS looking their best! And too many Black men also think this, which encourages more Black women to try to look like White women in order to get more attention. I know our people come in all colors and forms. But when you go out of your way to ALTER your appearance to make it look more White then it's an obvious sign of low self esteem and wishing you could be closer to White.

I know of one of those Black banks in Detroit.....First Independence. I went to them to get a car financed years ago and they're pretty decent. I'm just saying we need many many more than we have right now. Black people have been in this nation for far too long to have so few financial institutions and I believe it's mostly do to laziness and negligence. There are plenty of Black people who are good in accounting and managing finances but most of them are putting most of their energy into helping White people manager THEIR money.

K2 I believe you're right that the AVERAGE White man and woman can't understand what Black people are going through, but ACTIVE RACISTS who orchestrate the injustices that so many Black people face day to day, week to week, and year after year are WELL KNOWN to those who have planned them. Are you telling me that the law makers up in Washington D.C. and the various state capitals who enact legislation that destroy the Black family separating the children from their parents, allows discrimination in the work place, sends thousands of Black males to prison, and allows drugs to flood the community.......are you telling me THEY don't know what type of impact they're having and what they're doing? They know ALL too well.

I've been waiting on someone to bring this subject up, thanks Harry! If what the media is reporting is true.............. That these 2 brothers were asked to leave Starbucks by the Manager but refused to....... Then what they did was legally wrong. It wasn't MORALLY wrong, but it was legally wrong because if the owner of a private property or those charged with responsibility for that property (usually the manager) bans you from the premises or askes you to leave and your refuse to you are now tresspassing. I don't think most people know this. We use the term "public" too loosely and they think store or resturant or mall is "public" because the public is allowed in, but they don't realize these places are actually PRIVATE but serve the public. And also legally speaking, it doesn't matter what the White patrons are allowed to do, if YOU are asked to leave and refuse to So what lesson should Black people learn from this incident? Get up off their sorry ass and DO FOR SELF! Stop doing business with these goddamn racists and stay the hell out of their establishments! Establish YOUR OWN coffee shops! Establish YOUR OWN resturants! Build YOUR OWN shopping malls! Stop begging White folks for a spot in THEIR universities and jumping up and down in excitement after being accepted and instead BUILD YOUR OWN universities! When will Black people learn? Stop begging Whites and Asians and everybody else to "treat you right" and "accept you" and build your own society where you ACCEPT YOURSELF and thrive among eachother. Pretty soon you'll see other people patronizing your businesses and begging to get in.