Confederate Flag... Consider what the American Flag Means

[Troy 2,332]

Living in NY City I can't recall ever seeing the confederate flag (technically, the battle flag of Northern Virginia) flying.  Here in the south, where I am now, I see one all the time.  

 

The flag is obviously a course of pride for many. The nostalgic reverence is understandably stronger in the the south that it is in the North.  Streets are named after confederate generals and  a great many things are named after Jefferson Davis including many schools. It is still part of the MIssissippi state flag and only recently removed from Georgia's

 

Sure some white folks, perhaps most, see the flag as a source of white pride, with little knowledge of the history of the flag.  Of course many of these people are racist. 

 

I was in ATL yesterday and spent the day with a cousin from NC.  She told me when she was younger if they saw an American Flag you knew not to cross that person's yard.  For her the American flag was a symbol of racism.

 

Of course this make sense.  Black people were enslaved under the American Flag long before the confederate flag was designed and flown.  It is the same reason many Black people are suspicious of the police and courts of law; while white folks are confident these institutions will protect them.

 

There is even talk of removing the carving, which honors General Robert E. Lee, General “Stonewall” Jackson, and President of the Confederacy Jefferson Davis from the face off Stone Mountain.  Stone mountain the site of Klan rallies attracts millions of visitors a year, many of them Black, from all over the country.  Don't try to get near the place during the 4th of July.

 

 

While we are at it why not call for ripping Washington and Jefferson down from Mount Rushmore? They both owned slaves and we know Jefferson raped at least one of his.

 

Tearing down statues is not going to change the minds of racists, in fact it will give them something to rally behind and embolden them. 

 

I think tearing down the statues removing flags, like getting rid of the word nigger, is a waste of energy, money and time.  

 

The money can be better used educating people so that they are not ignorant enough to become racist.  Maybe they'll then recognize who their real enemy is.

 

 

[Cynique 2,307]

Washington and Jefferson did own slaves, but for all we know the sex between Jefferson and Sally Hemings,  his slave mistress, was consensual. Whatever. (The one thing i'll always be grateful to the foundling fathers for was that they had to good judgment to advocate separation of church and state.)

 

The argument advanced in regard to a comparison between Washington and Jefferson to Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson is that, unlike them, neither Washington nor Jefferson took up arms against the Union(United States) in what amounted to an act of treason, which is what all of the southern civil war heroes are technically guilty of.   Robert E. Lee graduated from West Point which has never allowed a statue of him to appear on its grounds because of his participation in the civil war.  

 

Most of the statues being taken down are of fairly recent vintage, having been erected about 50 years after the civil war in the 1900s during a resurgence of white supremacy via the powerful KKK, and they are not made of marble but of a plastic alloy which is why they are so easily pulled down and shattered.  They were produced in factories and during this era were quickly snatched up for display by southern cities to symbolize their defiance and pride over their part in the war they refused to believe they lost. These erected paragons  of white supremacy are racist, pure and simple.They are painful reminders of America's 400-year enslavement of black Americans.  There is no excuse or rationale for them being prominently displayed in public venues.  They belong in private museums dedicated to preserving the shameful history of the  Confederacy and its battle to keep their slaves. BTW,  Cruel slave holder Andrew Jackson will soon be removed from the 20 dollar bill.

 

People who dismiss the dismantling of these statues are obviously those who do not accept the significance of symbolism, which is akin to myth.  Apparently they think  it accomplishes nothing and is just an empty gesture.  My feelings are that these symbols represent different things to different groups.  I think that destroying statues revered by white  die-hard southerners is an effective weapon for slave descendants because doing this is like a stab to the heart of white racism. It hits them where it hurts. 

 

The American flag is supposedly a symbol of freedom justice and equality but to me it is a "lie"and a representation of this nation's ugly history - its hypocrisy, cruelty and hegemony, which is why i do not respect it.  I am, however,  heartened by the  great numbers of white American citizens who are appalled and angered  by Donald Trump, the epitome of what's wrong with this BS country. Conversely, I am disgusted by blacks like octogenarian Andrew Young, one of Martin Luther King's wing men during the civil rights movement.  Young, a Georgian, expressed sympathy not only for poor whites who he believes have been very neglected and ignored, but also for  those outraged by the removal of beloved civil war figures, and he thought  this onslaught should be stopped.  Seems like certain  house negroes are afflicted with a type of "Stockholm Syndrome" wherein the oppressed gradually began to empathize with their oppressors. 

[Troy 2,332]

@Cynique, I sense you'd stop short of calling Jefferson's relationship with Sally "rape."  Do you think they were in love? What else would you call a man having sex with someone he owned?

 

Washington and Jefferson were just as treasonous as Lee and Stonewall. They rebelled against the British.

 

Depending on your perspective Washington was a traitor or a freedom fighter.  The same could be said for Jefferson Davis.  Davis' problem was that he was on the losing end.  If the South won, George Washington statues would be coming down all over the North.

 

I'm glad Jackson's mug is being removed from the $20.  He truly was a devil--even for his day.  Too bad paper currency is going the way of the horse draw carriage; the impact of seeing Tubman's face regularly will not be nearly as impactful as seeing the faces of white men for centuries on our currency

 

I too am sympathetic to poor whites, I won't begrudge Young or anyone else for that sentiment.  Poor white don't have the power to oppress anyone.  They are the tools of the oppressor.

 

Poor whites were literally canon fodder during the Civil War dying for rich white folks!  They were so completely brainwashed that over 150 years later many of them worship the leaders of their oppression. Perhaps is they dealt with the truth of what they were put through, they'd lose their collective minds 

 

45 is about to send 1,000's more of hie white supporters into the middle east again--many of them will return in body bags.  The man lied about his plans for the middle east, but poor whites and Black will pay the ultimate price.

 

 

 

[Cynique 2,307]

No , i don't consider Sally Hemings, who bore many children by Thomas Jefferson and traveled with him to Paris, to be the victim of rape.  She was a "kept" woman and in keeping with the culture of the times probably  felt special about being her master's chosen bed mate.    Washington and Jefferson were traitors to England.  We're talking about America which eventually entered into a civil war which the south lost and slavery was abolished. What northern generals and statesmen would've been considered traitors had the south won is  irrelevant to me,  considering that slavery would've still been in tact had the south won. 

 

Sorry, but i can't muster up any sympathy for  gun totin, mean-spirited , hate-filled poor whites, who are resentful of their  skin being devalued, or sullen, steely-eyed coal miners who think black folks want to take their jobs, or other forgotten Trump voters who can't deal with an inclusive society, not to mention fanatical Evangelicals who think Trump's election is god's will.   Their misguided ignorance is not my problem.  Pardon me if, as a black person, I have more sympathy for poverty-stricken people of my own race who are still struggling with the aftermath of slavery.  

 

Yes, this situation is about class as much as race, but i still think a poor white person has a head start on a poor black person when it comes to pulling oneself  up by one's  boot straps.  

[Del 157]

I agree except now if you're poor you're all in a similar dinghies. Black's have tge more rickety ones. You will see equality because the current war is about economics, in the words of the Cosby Kids, No Class. 

[Pioneer1 810]

I went down to see the eclipse too. I went down to Kentucky.
I don't know about you Troy but I saw more Confederate Flags up in Ohio than I did down in Kentucky.

It seems to me that the White people were friendlier down in Kentucky also because we stopped in both states for gas, food, ect......

I've noticed that since childhood when my parents would take me down South on summer vacation.
In Michigan it was segregated.
The Whites would live in one place and party one way and Black people lived in another and partied another way.
White and Black kids usually went to different schools.
The only time they really came together was for WORK, and barely tolerated eachother there.

But when I went down South back in the late 70s and 80s I noticed that Blacks and Whites lived together, worked together, went to school together, and partied together.

But I saw more racism and segregation in CHICAGO than anywhere I've ever been.
 

 

The Confederate battle flag has NOTHING to do with heritage.
It if does....why are so many White people born and raise in the North and Midwest waving it?

It's all about White people pushing the envelope to see how much they can get away with.

That's how it starts.
One or two will fly the flag and if there's no push back or confrontation, more will do it....pretty soon a Black man or woman ends up getting lynched.

[Troy 2,332]

Cynique, I was expressing sympathy for poor white people.  You threw in a bunch of other adjectives "gun totin, mean-spirited , hate-filled poor whites"  that had nothing to do with the thought I expressed. Obviously no one would have sympathy for kinds or people of any color.

 

Let's be clear: Hemmings was not a "kept woman" she was property. As a slave Hemings could be dragged around the western world by Jefferson, a man 30 years her senior, for his sexual delight, whether Sally liked it or not. Sally may have had privileges denied her sisters working the fields, but like them Sally had no choice. She had to submit to Thomas' sexual desires whether she liked it or not. The pedophile may have started raping Sally when she was 13 years old.

 

2 hours ago, Cynique said:

Pardon me if, as a black person , I have more sympathy for poverty-stricken people of my own race who are still struggling with the aftermath of slavery.  

 

Cynique, come on, it is a given we both recognize Black people, of all classes, have suffered far longer and harder than even poor white people.  That goes without saying.  Still if we can't have sympathy for each other in this country, we won't have a country much longer... which is they way we are headed.

 

If we don't care what other what "misguided ignorance" festers in our midst, we all stand to suffer as a result.  

 

I have not watched TV in a few days so I have not heard Young's statements.  I'm sure the "news" stations are riding it for all it is worth. 

 

---

 

Pioneer, it is funny you'd mentioned the segregated north.  I told my cousin during the same conversation that I grew up in a segregated neighborhood, and did not attend school with a single white person until I was in high school.  If I went to my neighborhood high school I probably would not have run into too many there.  My teachers however were all white, virtually all Jewish. I told her I remember the first time I spoke to a white person my own age, during a trip to visit a cousin who lived in CT.

 

She was surprised to learn this because she always saw images of NY being a very diverse place--it is but New York's neighborhoods are very stratified by not just race but culture.

 

---

 

These statues mean nothing to most people.  These are the things birds crap on in city parks. We give these things more meaning that they deserve and are distractions from the things that really matter.

 

But again if we are gonna get bent out of shape about an old battle flag, we really need to get bend out of shape about the starts and strips.  I'm not calling for destoying the flag but helping to make sure the damn thing actually means something we can be proud of, something we'd actually want to salute.

 

[Troy 2,332]

This comments was posted on Facebook. I wonder what steps I would need to take to get people to comment here rather on Facebook? Maybe I'll try asking....

[Del 157]

Sally Hemmings had Jefferson free her son. So tge relationship may have been more nuanced. 

[Cynique 2,307]

@Troy Sorry  if my characterization of poor whites offended you, but your being offended didn't change my opinion.  Moreover,  can you deny  that  poor whites do include  the rural midwestern  trailer park trash types, and southern open-carry, good ol boy red neck communities who I described, and who your heart bleeds for.  Bottom line, none of these poor whites give a damn about you or your kind. They flock to Trump because he enables their racism. And i disagree that these old statues hold no meaning any more - and so does your well-informed face book dissenter. 

 

I don't know what Sally Hemings personal sentiments were about her situation with Thomas Jefferson and neither do you but you  have no  problem putting your spin on their long standing affair, after chiding me for negatively characterizing poor whites. Rape is in the eye of the beholder, only the woman knows for sure.  Statutory rape is a legal determination, not a personal one.     But if makes you feel better, i'm not against  taking down Jefferson and Washington statues, too. And if you'd stop "mansplaining" long enough you would realize that i've repeatedly  expressed my negative feelings about what the stars and stripes represent , and the injustices that exist in this country. ( Something that sticks in your craw when Colin Kaepernick demonstrates against it.)   And also about poverty being as much about class as race. BTW, what are the vague "more important" things you keep referring to that should take priority of over dismantling statues, things that would presumably make  America bright and shiny new. 

 

And the anecdotal evidence continues in regard to the nature of segregation in the south and the north. Experiences related to me talk about how segregated and discriminating it is once you get outside the big cities in the South and the advice is to stay in your own lane. There have also been numerous stories about white students all flocking to private white schools once public ones were desegregated, and about integrated high schools having separate proms for whites and blacks.  So whether racists are worse in the north than the south is a mixed bag. 

 

I haven't heard anything on the news about Andy Young's remarks which he made on one of the  Sunday morning new shows,  and were later printed in the Atlantic Black Star newspaper where a link to them appeared on FaceBook. I'm sure Fox News made a big deal of it. Just the stuff that you and Fox news like to hear.     

[Troy 2,332]

Cynique there is nothing that you wrote that offended me.

• You believe all poor white people are racist and therefore undeserving of sympathy.  I disagree.
• You believe a 43 year old man having sex with a 13 child that he owns is not rape. I disagree.
• You believe that America has treated has Black people terribly historically and well as currently and worse than poor whites. I agree.

 

@Del, you can call the relationship "naused," because Jefferson freed his own child.  Again it was a horrible situation that Sally, like all enslaved people, did what they could to make the best of a f--ked up situation. 

 

Man, y'all willing to condemn all poor white people, but a rich a rich and powerful white man who has sex with a child he owns is in a "nuanced" relationship with his "mistress."  But I understand, this is what people have always done; venerate the wealthy devils and trash the poor people. I'm just surprised to see you two doing it.

 

As far as the "vague" things that we should be doing rather than worrying about statues.  You mean to tell me you can't think of anything Cynque?  Half the stuff we talk about here is more important that some stupid statue; from climate change; wealth inequality; mass incarceration, shitty schools, 45...  Stop playing 

 

Here is a video of Andy Young (wow he has been out of the spotlight so long I did not even recognize him) talking about his comments about Charlottesville. When I searched for this video there was no shortage of other video eviscerating Young for these comments.

 

 

[Cynique 2,307]

Well, it's not unusual for us to disagree, as you pat yourself on the back for taking the high road instead of the low one, something your clever use of language has permitted you to do.

 

I never actually defended Jefferson but i do know there is a large clan of black descendants from Sally Hemings' blood line who are very proud of this lineage and who fought long and hard to  be acknowledged and accepted as authentic by Jefferson's white descendants. So if her black family doesn't have a problem with Sally's liaison  with Jefferson, why should I?  There have been books written about Sally Hemings and I'd be interested in the conclusions the authors drew about her feelings on this matter.

 

I don't feel sorry for poor whites because, as you have called to my attention, there are more important problems to be concerned about in this world. I confess to being prejudiced toward all manner of these people because i have no doubt they are all prejudiced against me.   As i have previously stated, i am discriminating when it comes to being compassionate, especially toward people whose pride in their white skin has blinded them to who their real enemies are.

 

What do you think about Andy Young's stance?

[Del 157]

Troy you are attributing statements to mw that i have neither said overtly or covertly. Their relationship is clearly complicated. He started oyt having a sexual relationship with a beautiful underage piece of property. That he liked her company enough to travel with her..

[Mel Hopkins 1,325]

@Troy

 

Surely, your cousin attached some other trauma to the American flag to deem it racist. She wasn’t enslaved under the American flag or confederate flag but the latter is the symbol of those who wanted the right to enslaved people to prop up their economy.   

In fact, from this story, it seems she avoided neighbors for whom Old Glory symbolized something different.  And I suspect, the American flag signaled her neighbors intent on doing harm

I have no sort of trauma attached to the American flag - other than one was given to my mother for her husband's ultimate sacrifice - 

 

Aside: Embracing any symbol, such as flag, is strange; especially when the focus should be on its principles instead.  

 

Also, Neither Del nor Cynique wrote that Jefferson wasn't trash.  They responded that the relationship between Jefferson and Hemings was nuanced.  From my POV, their statement doesn’t absolve Jefferson of anything.

 

And speaking of Jefferson and Washington, while either may have performed alleged treasonous acts against England; they were founders of the Union.  A statute of either would be more appropriate than one of Benedict Arnold.  So, a statue of someone such as Lee who fought against the union wouldn’t be welcomed here either.   I can see those in the confederate states remembering their war dead - but statues of the losing generals are disrespectful.  Imagine one of those mosque here in the U.S. erecting a statue of Osama bin Laden.  

 

We now know those statues are symbols that emboldened those filled with hate.  It's best they go.   

For whatever reason, however, there's a statue of George Washington in England’s Trafalgar Square. So maybe the Queen doesn’t hold a grudge.  Or America is still a colony. 

[Del 157]

Thanks Sis.

[Elva D. Green 8]

I don't know how to separate out another blogger's opinion other than this way: Troy you stated "Tearing down statues is not going to change the minds of racists". I think you make a good point. I see tolerance as a way toward changing minds. I personally know a young white man whose parents raised him as a white supremacist. When I met him he was about 21. We would see each other from time to time in a discussion group. I watched him change. He came to realize that people were just people. None of them were better than or less than. It was like watching his face light up. That was something he came to realize through contact, through attraction. Through being a part of a group of people who expressed love for their follows. 

 

As for me, I seem to be of an opinion that no one else has. In 1998 I went to Manassas, VA. Had no idea where I was. I went to attend job training. Some of the men took me on a tour of the Manassas Battlefield National Park. (The Battle of Bull Run 1861). Stonewall Jackson Monument. They pointed out the hill that the soldiers fought on. After about 1/2 hour I said to them, you know, I'm not really interested in picturing men shooting and stabbing each other, also how come there aren't any statues of Black men here? There must have been some Black men fighting too!! Why are they not represented? Of course my escorts laughed heartily and the tour ended. But I realized that I was not offended by the statue of a white confederate, only that there was nothing to commemorate the Blacks who were a part of this history. 

 

Something that I failed to fully grasp at that time was that there was an old worn out, burned out building on those grounds that was at one time the home of a free Black. The house sat right where the battle raged. The Robinson House. It was not burned out in the war. But vandalized in the 1990's. Anyhow one can still visit the site. This site of the house the surrounding property makes up an important part of the battlefield park today. And THAT is what I'm talkin' about. Read about it.

 

I have only this week realized the significance of this house. I am in the process of writing an article (per my publisher) for Huff Post and I am going to write about using our energies to raise awareness of Black progress, rather than using our energies to tear things down. Tearing statues down is not going to erase the reality. 

 

Ok, so this is my opinion that I am learning to put out there without fearing what might be thrown back at me. 

 

Oops, I forgot. As a child At 66th street school in Los Angeles, I learned to salute the flag and respect the flag. That stuck with me a long time as an American citizen. I know more now as an adult, but I still respect the flag as an emblem of the United States. I wouldn't burn it for instance. I see it as the only flag.

[Cynique 2,307]

@Elva D. Green Thanks for sharing your thoughts.  In response, i would  simply request that you and Troy ask yourself why were  statues  erected  and memorials preserved  in public venues  all over the south?  What purpose did they serve?  Could it be that they were symbols of defiance?  That in spite of the South having lost the Civil War, its descendants were determined to pay homage to the confederate generals and statesmen  who  fought to preserve a way of life that revolved around the enslavement of black people who were considered inferior to whites? What better way for theses sore losers  to send a message  than to display visible reminders of what they consider their glorious past? A past that was resurrected through lynchings and Jim Crowism and the racism that still lingers.  Why do these ideals deserved to be tolerated, and those who cling to them have to be humored?

 

Who cares whether dismantling these  revered monuments  changes the minds of die-hards? I don't.  Let them  ruminate in the resentment that stems from  yet another defeat for white supremacy by seeing figures of their heroes shattered.  I care about my own people. It's time for black folks to take comfort in a moral victory. IMO.

[Troy 2,332]

@Cynique, I really don't know why they erected these monuments.  Why do people create tomb stones?  I presume they are honoring the dead.  Perhaps they are honoring people who sacrificed for a cause.  In any event, I doubt they were erected to piss you and I off. 

 

These things statues, swastikas, the Virginia battle flag have been coopted by racists.

 

Obviously I don't think overt racism should be tolerated, but you already know this so I don't understand why you write stuff like that.  The statues don't make racists; the racists existed before the dumb statues and will exist after they are gone. Are we supposed to get rid of every symbol the Alt-right (or whatever the current euphemism is for racist is), decides to co-opt for their perverse purposes? 

 

Deal with the people and their behavior and the statues will become as irrelevant as they were before the recent events...

 

You see it is much easier to tear down a statue and think you've actually accomplished something.  @Cynique, what do you think tearing the statues will accomplish?

 

As far as Andy Young's statement.  I tend to listen more carefully to people like you and him.  You've lived longer and experienced more.  Wisdom is not valued very much in our youth/celebrity obsessed culture, but it means something to me.

 

Young said most of the issues we are dealing with are due to poverty.  Since I have been saying this for as long as this forum has existed, you know I agree with this.  

 

However unlike Young I think the Klan has to be denounced. But I think the criminals on Wall Street need to be denounced even more, as they have caused far more damage than the Klan ever will and are probably instrumental in the resurgence of overt racist attitudes and the rise of 45.

 

@Del, I'm not sure what I misinterpreted.  You made a declarative statement; "Sally Hemmings had Jefferson free her son." This was followed by what I can only assume is a conclusion you drew as a result; "So tge relationship may have been more nuanced."  Tell me, what did I misinterpret from what you wrote?

 

@Mel Hopkins, I don't know if she had any personal trauma directly related to the flag.  I did not probe, but I immediately understood. In fact that is what prompted me to write this message. 

 

I don't mean to suggest that I don't understand the power of symbols like flags.  In the days immediately after 9-11, I flew an American flag from my car. As much as I have to say against the ills of this country, all of that was put aside for a few moments because we, as a nation, was in immediate danger.  The flag was a overt show of solidarity. It seems a bit much thinking about it now...

 

But I tell that story because the flag, like those statues only have the meaning we give it, and those meanings change, based upon the people.  Again, change the people and the meaning of the symbols change as well.

 

 

[Cynique 2,307]

3 hours ago, Troy said:

You see it is much easier to tear down a statue and think you've actually accomplished something.  @Cynique, what do you think tearing the statues will accomplish?

 

12 hours ago, Cynique said:

It's time for black folks to take comfort in a moral victory. 

Tearing down statues can be just one of many ways to dismantle racism. Nobody said doing this is the end-all and the be-all in the struggle to "overcome". It is just one step; "many roads lead to Rome".  Meanwhile,  folks like you stand around, explaining and describing  how  the "haves" exploit the "have-nots" to keep them downtrodden. What has this accomplished?  Racism and poverty remain firmly in place. You deal in empty rhetoric and i deal in solid symbols. So be it.  

[Troy 2,332]

Well Cynique, it is more than just tearing down the statues it is the time and effort required to fight to have it done.  Again, since racism was far worse before these statues existed it is not clear to my why their absence will make a bit of difference. But we'll agree to disagree on this issue. 

 

I think I do a bit more than "stand around, explaining and describing" Cynique, and you know this too.

 

Besides I would not dismiss the importance of explaining, describing, reading, and talking about ideas. I think if we all did more of these things the country would be in a better place.

 

 

[harry brown 238]

White People Who Support The Confederate Flag,Who Want Confederate Statues To Stand,Have No Problem With Neo .Nazi ,Carrying The Confederate  Flag With The Nazi Flag .What I Have,Not Heard With All The News Talk About The Neo Nazi ,Rallies ,Is That White Police Have Been Fired For Being Klan Members ,The Past 7, Years. Klan, Neo  Nazi Terrorist ,Organizations. I Read That Neo Nazi Were Planning To Attack A Black  School,Murder Lot A Black People,Then Try To Assassinate Barack Obama Before The Election In 2008...

[Cynique 2,307]

@TroyStatues are coming down all over the south. And this is being done voluntarily by many southern officials, themselves.  It takes no time and effort to do this because most of the statues are not marble ones. Many have been removed over night to avoid fanfare. 

 

You lament all of the time how corporate America stifles you, and how Capitalism is designed to keep the money in the hands of the rich. This is evident in the black sector. How has an awareness of this accomplished anything more than tearing down statues?  

 

Yes, we do have to agree to disagree.

[Dr. Jazzy 6]

Their National Anthem...

"And where is that band who so vauntingly swore, That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion A home and a Country should leave us no more? Their blood has wash'd out their foul footstep's pollution. No refuge could save the hireling and slave From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave, And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave."

Our National Anthem....

Stony the road we trod,
Bitter the chast’ning rod,
Felt in the days when hope unborn had died;
Yet with a steady beat,
Have not our weary feet
Come to the place for which our fathers sighed?
We have come over a way that with tears has been watered.
We have come, treading our path through the blood of the slaughtered,
Out from the gloomy past,
Till now we stand at last
Where the white gleam of our bright star is cast.

interesting....

[Elva D. Green 8]

@@Cynique I have some idea of why various statues were erected. Of course, it is possible that these statues could have been  erected as symbols of defiance. However, I do not have a desire to shatter the figures of their heroes in order that they might ruminate in their resentment from another defeat. I am not looking to rub my hands together while watching them be taken down a peg. I understand that you do not care to change their minds. My point is can we as Black people use the energy that produces our anger over what "they" did to elevate ourselves. I have not advocated tolerance of their ideals. If you see leaving the statues up as a form of tolerance, that is your way of thinking. I'm just saying we ought to erect some symbols, too. Let's focus on our pride. Instead of creating piles of debris and making a mess by smashing statues, let's do something productive, celebrate a Black hero everyday. Show some love to someone everyday. As I write this I had to smile because if my mother was still alive she would be looking at me right now with scorn. Anyhow, great discussion.

[Cynique 2,307]

"The pathway to hell is paved with good intentions".  Black folks are still praying and forgiving and mustering up their pride and here we are in 2017 "post-racial America"  enabling  white supremists . Same ol, same ol.   LOL

[Elva D. Green 8]

 I believe that being aware of our greatness and progress as a people ought to be foremost in our minds.

[Cynique 2,307]

Black folks have always been aware of their  "greatness and progress as a people".  And - "here we are in 2017 post racial America, enabling white supremacy", going along, to get along.   Sorry,  I'm done with platitudes.  But i commend you for being positive and suggest that you consider how Troy has reminded, that in the final analysis, it's more about class than race.  

[Elva D. Green 8]

@CyniqueYou say "here we are", "enabling white supremacy", "going along, to get along". Who is "we". Maybe you see my statements as platitudes and you dismiss them, which is your business. But what I write on this site holds just as much weight as what you write.  And I suggest that you consider ending your sentences with an upbeat slant. Couldn't you just leave it at "But I commend you for being positive"? And, I'm sorry, but I am confused about one thing, I am confused about your use of Troy's saying that it's more about class than race. Well, doesn't having class include being positive and not caring to hurt others? isn't class about tolerating people with whom we do not agree? 

[Troy 2,332]

Elva I'm sure Cynique was referring to how I'm always focusing on socio-economic class.  YOu have not been around long enough to have read my many rants of the subject.

 

But we, as a culture, can certainly use a little more class how we comport ourselves. 

 

 

[Mel Hopkins 1,325]

On 8/25/2017 at 6:38 AM, Troy said:

the flag, like those statues only have the meaning we give it, and those meanings change, based upon the people.  Again, change the people and the meaning of the symbols change as well.

@Troy 

Exactly... and that's why it's important to probe. Yes, even your cousin, because to assume  is a cop out.  You denied her a chance to express why she believed what she did - and instead it seems you supplied your own internal conflict to her suffering.  

 

Further, do you really  believe there's something you or anyone can do to change another person?  

No one can change another person's belief or nature . Yes, you can provide a catalyst such as removing a statue or simply standing in place and being a beacon of LOVE in hopes that will change the person - but Change is an INSIDE JOB.   

 

[Cynique 2,307]

  

10 hours ago, Elva D. Green said:

But what I write on this site holds just as much weight as what you write.  And I suggest that you consider ending your sentences with an upbeat slant. Couldn't you just leave it at "But I commend you for being positive"?

Challenging each other's opinions is the name of the game on this site;  dealing in hard facts makes things even more provocative.  And i regretfully decline your suggestion in regard to ending my sentences with an upbeat slant.  On this site, I am the resident prophet of doom, hence the screen name "Cynique".  But if you choose to join us as a regular poster, feel free to assume the position of being the "resident optimist".    

[Elva D. Green 8]

You know, I suspected the "Cynique" angle, but wasn't sure. Could have just been your real name. Funny but  my family sees me as a "resident optimist". It's just me through and through. My purpose for joining this site was to be a part of a book discussion group (initially for my book). I chose AALBC because I liked Troy's email newsletters and because it is a Black site. I decided to check into the "culture, race and economy" section and "be a part of". Looks like it's not for me. From now on I will just stick with the Literature board. Thank you for telling me the name of the game. Hm, maybe I'll try the Blogger section.

[Mel Hopkins 1,325]

1 hour ago, Elva D. Green said:

Looks like it's not for me.

 

@Elva D. Green  of course, it is! where would society be without its optimists.  By the way, I'm the " pragmatic"  Pleased to meet you!   

[Troy 2,332]

@Mel Hopkins I did not need to probe, because as I wrote, "I got it."  Maybe because I've known her all my life, maybe because we share genetic code.  Maybe we are just two black people of the same culture.  In any event, it is not a cop out; indeed we were connecting.  The specifics of how she happen to come to the sentiment are incidental to understanding it understanding it.  

 

Now it is possible I got it completely wrong, but I doubt it. Don't you find that you can communicate with some people on some subjects more easily that with others.  Sometimes my wife or mother can give me a look and I know exactly what they are "saying."  Of course this is much easier to do in real life that it is is on these forums.  

 

No I don't think you can change someone, but as you said you can provide a catalyst.  I just don't think engaging legal battles to remove statues is the best use of our collective resources.

 

The image Cynique shared about the statue, in my neighborhood was very powerful (isn't art great for raising consciousness).

 

I do plan on looking up the information and now next time I walk past it with someone I'll explain what it means. Now if someone responsible for it decide to tear it down--fine. But I'd rather spend the time sharing information about what that Dr. did than using the energy to try to get it removed.

 

Yesterday the statue mean nothing to me, which I suspect was what it mean to almost everyone else.  Today the statue is a reminder how what horrifically white mean treated Black women.

 

Perhaps it will come to mean the same thing to the white folks responsible of it being in place (you know they are white), as they too learn more about the "doctor's" evil experiments. Maybe they will decide to remove the statue on their own volition. Again I could care less one way or the other. Tearing it down will not turn a single racist.

 

[Mel Hopkins 1,325]

12 minutes ago, Troy said:

because as I wrote, "I got it."  

But you don't know.   She may not even know.  She knows to avoid it but it maybe buried so deep - she's unaware

 

14 minutes ago, Troy said:

Don't you find that you can communicate with some people on some subjects more easily that with others.

No. But I do ask a lot of questions.  I gave birth to my three daughters - and I raised them...and even today, they'll say things that are amazing with a totally different spin on a subject than I would ever imagine.   I really do probe. I find sometimes people don't know their own answers until they're asked.  

I agree with you on being mindful the use of resources to remove the statues but at what cost should they remain?    For example, I don't think I've  heard of that monster (gynecologist) but in all my life I've never visited a white male OB-GYN... my three babies were even delivered by a black woman obgyn... If someone would have asked me why - I would've probably said I feel comfortable with a black woman doctor.  

BUT WHAT IF I had heard that horrific story in passing and buried it.   This is why I don't "write" verses for people - unless they're in a book.  I ask.  

 

I'm a firm believer that we give our energy to inanimate objects that should not have it.  Think about how much unwitting energy that monster doctor received simply because most people didn't know of his deeds yet walked by him everyday.   

Yes, those horrific symbols, sucking the life out of folks,  need to go.  #byefelicia to all of them.