It Just Occurred To Me......

[Pioneer1]

While sitting up here enjoying my Jamaican style Curry Goat (another invention by Black folks @Jeromex & @Wide awake that people of ALL races seem to enjoy), it just occurred to me.......

That shooting in Jacksonville might have been in RETALIATION to that ass beating our brothers gave those devils down in Montgomery a few weeks ago!

People all over the planet witnessed those devils getting their asses handed to them and made all kinds of jokes and memes about it.

 

[Pioneer1]

Back in the 90s, most Black folks NEVER would have thought that White men would be carrying out such blatant and frequent racist attacks like these.

You had a few racists stockpiling weapons tucked away in compounds out in Idaho and Montana way away from civilization, but nothing like the White men openly marching around with weapons on them and sporting Nazi and Confederate tattoos like today.

It's gotten WORSE.
But we were warned it would.

Minister Farrakhan warned us YEARS ago back in 1996.....
 

 

"God is going to make you CRY OUT for the DESTRUCTION 
of your enemy because HE's going to send that enemy against
you!"

[nels]

8 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

gave those devils

Devils? This is known passed-down hate-driven idiocy from many decades ago.

7 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

It's gotten WORSE.

? The world isn't black and white, anymore. Casually injecting race into every argument dilutes that argument's credibility and effectiveness.

[Troy]

Yeah, the concept of race and everything that flows from it has been a serious problem for centuries.

[richardmurray]

@Pioneer1

You suggest how the majority in the black community in the usa think during a certain time frame.

Quote

Back in the 90s, most Black folks NEVER would have thought that White men would be carrying out such blatant and frequent racist attacks like these.
 

 

Only three reasons exist as to why most black humans in the usa would make such a positive, though flawed assumption, to white humans in the usa.

1) Black humans in the usa don't know any history, firstly from their own elders in their bloodline and secondly from history books

2) Black humans in the usa were lied to concerning their history firstly from the older members of their bloodline or secondarily history books. 

3) Black humans in the usa are simply fools that believe the best in strangers. 

 

My question Pioneer is to you.

Am I wrong ? Am I missing a reason? If I am missing a reason please say so. If I am not missing a reason then the issue in my mind is what has to change in black elders communication to new generations to delete as much as possible the thinking you state from happening.

 

@Troy 

Quote

Yeah, the concept of race and everything that flows from it has been a serious problem for centuries.

I have questions for you. 

Why centuries? Based on what you have said about race, shouldn't you have said throughout millennia or all human history? 

Are you suggesting thousands of years ago, based on your views, race in any of its infinite forms wasn't a problem? 

I admit I don't see these events as showing a problem with race as much as how race is implemented. 

But humans always implement race using a bias that by default has to lead and leads to abuses or frictions. 

[Pioneer1]

richardmurray

 

 

My question Pioneer is to you.

Am I wrong ? Am I missing a reason? If I am missing a reason please say so. If I am not missing a reason then the issue in my mind is what has to change in black elders communication to new generations to delete as much as possible the thinking you state from happening.

You were definately right about number 2:
 
2) Black humans in the usa were lied to concerning their history firstly from the older members of their bloodline or secondarily history books. 

This is one of the main problems.
Incorrect and inaccurate information is steadily being passed down.

[Troy]

On 8/29/2023 at 12:27 AM, richardmurray said:

Are you suggesting thousands of years ago, based on your views, race in any of its infinite forms wasn't a problem? 

Yes. Racism and the requisite concept of race had only existed for a few hundred years. 
 

 

[richardmurray]

@Pioneer1

That is a hard egg to crack in the usa. 

Comprehend, outside the nearly terminated native american, the indigenous people, all the other communities in the usa are for the most part, full of liars, who raised their children on lies who raised their children on the lies they were fed by their parents.

 

White europeans killed most of the  native american  peoples , took their land,but they talk like they did the native american a favor for killing them. Their forebears entire wealth comes from abusing others under the law they constructed but they tell it like the usa made humanity free.Thsi comes from white homes.

Black DOSers enslavement to whites predates the usa and has never completely ended by even whte accounts, yet black people talk like we came on the nina and pinta and santamaria and merely was so stupid our modern condition comes from a simple ignorance like we weren't enslaved or abused by whites.  Black people act like centuries of enslavement should be reversed in less than a hundred years. That is from our homes. 

The non white european immigrant community, asians or latin americans or africans or caribbeans of all phenotypes left countries the usa mangled or abuse nad is usually still abusing, but talk about being a citizen of the usa while having pride for the country they left, that most never go back to. These people don't even tell their children the circumstances to why they are leaving, whether they committed crimes or backstabbed or cheated or made enemies. But present themselves as simple good workers looking to join a rainbow country not telling their children the rainbow is founded on blood.

 

So, the majority of homes in the usa are full of liars. Who want to pass negatively.  It links all the peoples in the usa, barring the native american. 

Whites didn't want their children to admit their wealth came from others suffering and embrace the usa as a racial country.

Blacks DOSers didn't want their children to assault their enslavers and not allow a connection to the usa to be made.

Immigrants didn't want their children to fight against the country that they sacrificed to bring them to and fight against the usa for the country their forebears fled.

 

misinformation is a pillar of most usa homes or discourse or positions or views. 

 

The USA will never have a majority of honest people, that requires most people in the usa to end many of their positions.

 

@Troy

You have me confused. I admit it. If anyone ask me about racism, in my opinion, through my own definitions, racism is as old as humanity. But, your saying it is only a few hundred years old. Instead of opposing your position. The question is, in your opinion, not mine, when did racism begin? In your opinion, not mine or anything to do with me,  what started racism a few hundred years ago? You can't give a blank answer to either of those questions and remain functional to your position. 

[ProfD]

2 hours ago, richardmurray said:

The non white european immigrant community, asians or latin americans or africans or caribbeans of all phenotypes left countries the usa mangled or abuse nad is usually still abusing, but talk about being a citizen of the usa while having pride for the country they left, that most never go back to. These people don't even tell their children the circumstances to why they are leaving, whether they committed crimes or backstabbed or cheated or made enemies. But present themselves as simple good workers looking to join a rainbow country not telling their children the rainbow is founded on blood.

I'm mindful of this when talking to non-white immigrants especially tethers. 

 

The system of racism white supremacy means nothing to most immigrants because they purposefully left their home countries looking for a better life in predominantly white countries.

 

The USA is the ancestral home of AfroAmericans born ADOS/FBA.  AfroAmericans built the USA.  The USA belongs to us.  It's our home country. 

 

AfroAmericans have no other country of origin and nowhere else to go nor should be even consider looking for another country.  That's silly. 

 

The dumb white folks would love for AfroAmericans to pack up our sh8t and roll out but it would be foolish of us to do so.

 

Most people recognize that AfroAmericans are responsible for every ounce of flavor billions of people around the globe enjoy. 

 

AfroAmericans have been influential in every advancement of human activity over several centuries and counting.

 

Every other immigrant benefits from the avenues created from the AfroAmerican struggle....right here in the USA...our home.

[Troy]

@richardmurray I was not expressing an opinion, it was a based upon common knowledge.  I asked Chat GPT the question, "When did white racism begin?"  The response follows:

 

Understanding the origins of white racism involves a complex and multifaceted analysis that encompasses historical, social, political, and economic dimensions. It is a subject of study for scholars across various disciplines, including history, sociology, and anthropology.

 

While racism as a concept and social construct varies from one society and era to another, the kind of racial prejudice that has often been labeled "white racism" is typically tied to the European colonial period and the transatlantic slave trade, which began in the 16th century. Before this period, many societies harbored prejudices related to religion, nationality, or social status, but the notion of "race" as we understand it today was not as prevalent.

 

During the Age of Exploration, as European powers began to colonize other parts of the world, ideologies were developed to justify the subjugation and exploitation of indigenous peoples. Scientific racism, which misapplied principles from biology and anthropology, was used to claim that certain "races" were superior to others. This laid the intellectual foundation for racial prejudices that later developed into social norms and policies in many Western countries, most notably in the form of slavery, segregation, and discriminatory laws.

 

It's worth noting that while "white racism" often refers to systemic racism perpetuated by white individuals or institutions, not all white individuals are racist or contribute to systemic racism. Additionally, racism exists in many forms and contexts outside of the "white versus other" framework.

 

There is no definitive date when white racism began, but its roots are deep and complex, shaped by an array of factors over several centuries. Even today, the study of its origins and impacts continues to evolve as scholars and activists work to understand and combat racism in its various forms.

 

I asked a the follow up question, "what are the sources of the last response?"  I added the hyperlinks to the books. 

 

The information in my previous response is based on a general understanding of historical events, scholarly interpretations, and social theories concerning the topic of racism, particularly as it relates to European colonial history and the social construct of race. While I don't cite specific sources due to the nature of my training data, the ideas expressed are broadly reflective of academic discourse on this subject as of my last update in September 2021.

 

Key historical periods often cited in relation to the development of what is sometimes termed "white racism" include European colonialism, the transatlantic slave trade, and the subsequent development of race-based social and legal systems in various parts of the world. These ideas are explored in multiple academic disciplines, including history, sociology, anthropology, and critical race studies.

 

Books such as The Destruction of Black Civilization by Chancellor Williams, Orientalism by Edward Said, Stamped from the Beginning by Ibram X. Kendi, and White Over Black: American Attitudes Toward the Negro, 1550-1812 by Winthrop D. Jordan are just a few examples that delve into the historical and social complexities surrounding race and racism.

 

For a nuanced understanding of this topic, it's recommended to consult a range of scholarly works, primary sources, and empirical studies.

 

I trust this response eliminates your confusion. Racism is not as old as humanity.  It is unnatural and has to be taught.  America has done a great job of teaching racism.  

 

I was previously unfamiliar with the work of Winthrop Jordan and will add his titles to the site. 

 

I think educated young people are the least racist people the country has ever produced, so there is hope. 

[richardmurray]

@ProfD

The black community in the usa will be better when all in it comprehend, that black people have the right to desire away from the usa. Your words remind me of WEB Dubois who spoke ill against Marcus Garvey in court. PRofD, I know black people , Black ados, who left the usa and are happy. You may not realize it, but your words are very limiting, but in a key way. What you have to comprehend is that history doesn't have to have one interpretation. We all know events in history but assessing those events, that doesn't have to be uniform and even though the usa populace is the king of training mass opinion, you have to realize , the history of black people in the usa allows for both a pro + anti usa position. Not one but both. Remember, when the usa was founded black people fought for and against it, simultaneously. So... do what you want of course, but keep trying to push the usa as a homeland to all black DOSers will always fail. Anyone can search history and find evidence that many, sometimes most,  black dos forebears never wanted that. 

 

@Troy In my comment to you I said 

Quote

If anyone ask me about racism

But by your own words you asked a computer program built by humans full of biases, which demand imbalance 

Quote

When did white racism begin?

You didn't even ask the same question I did. I didn't speak on white racism. I spoke on racism. 

But your correct. I comprehend your opinion on race.  I am no longer confused to your view on race. I am opposed to it of course. 

But I do realize going forward in this community, whenever you comment on race , where your arguments come from. 

[ProfD]

16 minutes ago, richardmurray said:

The black community in the usa will be better when all in it comprehend, that black people have the right to desire away from the usa. 

 

I know black people , Black ados, who left the usa and are happy.

 

So... do what you want of course, but keep trying to push the usa as a homeland to all black DOSers will always fail.

You're right...Black ADOS/FBA have every right to leave the USA. 

 

But, the USA is the birthplace and ancestral home of ADOS/FBA.

 

1) Black ADOS/FBA do not have another country that we can call home

2) Again....rhetorically, why do so many non-ADOS/FBA folks leave their home countries to take up residence in the USA

3) A huge amount of anti-AfroAmerican sentiment comes from other Black folks who benefit from our struggle

 

Personally, I have enough resources to live comfortably anywhere on the planet.  That's beside the point. 

 

I was born and raised in Washington, DC proper i.e. not the suburbs.  I'm ADOS/FBA for life.

 

Rest assured that I, as an ADOS/FBA Black man will always live here, claim and push the USA as our homeland until I take my last breath and die. 

 

I will not let non-ADOS/FBA folks and tethers feel comfortable coming to the US and 1) reaping the benefits of everything ADOS/FBA built and 2) either directly or indirectly telling us to get over slavery and racism white supremacy. 

 

ADOS/FBA Black folks must wake up and keep fighting for the America that belongs to us.

[Troy]

4 hours ago, richardmurray said:

You didn't even ask the same question I did. I didn't speak on white racism. I spoke on racism. 

 

Richard, you are being really nit-picky. What type of racism are we talking about then?  In the statement you made just prior to my response, YOU used the word "white" 6 times.

 

4 hours ago, richardmurray said:

But by your own words you asked a computer program built by humans full of biases, which demand imbalance 

 

You may not completely understand generative AI.  What non-human source would you prefer me to reference that would satisfy you?

 

4 hours ago, richardmurray said:

But I do realize going forward in this community, whenever you comment on race , where your arguments come from. 

 

Now why would you jump to that conclusion? ChatGPT is less than a year old. I've run an online bookstore for more than a quarter of a century and often used books as references, but I never read where you made the assumption that all of my comments on race come from books. I linked to Chancellor Williams' book above -- check it out .

   

[Pioneer1]

White racism began on the island of Patmos/Pelan when Yacub and his followers embarked on a program of "grafting" to take the recessive gene and produce an actual recessive PEOPLE.
 
Recessive = weak

Weak skin, weak hair, weak blood, weak eyes, weak emotions, weak nerves, weak bones, etc.....

Ironically, these people were taught that because of their characteristics they were superior and shouldn't mix with other people of color or "dilute" their blood with them but instead must dominate and control them and keep their blood or genetics pure.
Religion was/is used to brainwashed most of them but the elites know the truth.

[richardmurray]

@ProfD fair enough, I comprehend your position. Many black people in the usa want a certain respect for the black journey in the usa.

 

@Troy and in each time i used the word white it was signifying a phenotypical group in humanity. 

 

To be fair none. I wasn't knocking your source. It came to the conclusions you have said or alluded to before in this community. 

 

I jump to conclusions based on the consistency of your own replies from what I have read in this forum in topics concerning race.  It has nothing to do with chatgpt. All I can say to chatgpt is the machine's answer sounds similar to your own, which is fine, no problem. as least I have no problem with it. 

[Troy]

@richardmurray it sounds similar because there are a finite way to say the same thing. 

 

what do you think about @Pioneer1’s explanation? 
 

Which answer resonates with you more Chat GPT’s response or the Yacub myth.

[Pioneer1]

To many people today, the response the AI gave may SOUND like it makes more sense and is more legitimate than the Yacub racial theory; however if you compare both narratives you can actually poke more holes in the common AI given narrative than Elijah Muhammad's explanation.

For examples...........

1. Chat focuses on the 15th and 16th centuries as an explanation for White racism, while the Yacub theory says it's THOUSANDS of years old and started about 6 thousand years ago.

On this particular point, which narrative is more credible?

We know that the Crusades of the 10th, 11th, and 12th centuries (before the 1500s obviously) were largely based on race and culture as well as religion.
We also know that the invasion of ancient India by the White Aryans from the north was obviously based largely on race also.

Both events were well before the time period Chat AI gives for the beginnings of racism.



2. Chat focuses on EUROPEANS as a source of or beginning of White racism, as if they were the only ones practicing it.

Yacub theory doesn't focus on Europeans but on the entire race called CAUCASIAN people....regardless as to where they are found.

So which is more accurate?
 

Again, the Arabs have been practicing racism against darker skinned people like Africans for centuries and the Aryans of India have also been practicing it.
Neither group is European, but both harbor the same basic ideas of hatred for darker people and belief in their superiority as the European does, supporting the idea that it's not a European concept but more of a Caucasian concept based on the actual race rather than their geography.
 

[richardmurray]

@Troy 

yeah, fair enough. Only one element of your reply lead to my confusion, not the whole thing. But I comprehend your position more completely now. 

 

Same thing, pioneer's position I comprehend like your's. Neither of you are the same frequency or wave structure as mine, but that is fine. I comprehend you both, that is more important than agreement or similar thinking.

 

@Pioneer1 focus your energies on building side those who share your position on race. The question I have to you is  what do you want? do you want to preach to black people who do not or may not share the position that you side many other black people have concerning race? Or,  do you want to build upon that view? If nothing can be built then people will come upon the position or they will not, but no need to proselytize

[Pioneer1]

17 minutes ago, richardmurray said:

 

 

@Pioneer1 focus your energies on building side those who share your position on race. The question I have to you is  what do you want? do you want to preach to black people who do not or may not share the position that you side many other black people have concerning race? Or,  do you want to build upon that view? If nothing can be built then people will come upon the position or they will not, but no need to proselytize

I'm not religious nor do I adhere to much of the Nation of Islam's beliefs, so I'm not proselytizing.
However there are things that the Nation of Islam teach that I definitely support and believe.
Truth is truth regardless as to where it comes from.

Sometimes our people MUST be "preached" to because coming at them hard and direct is the only way you can reach them with what you have to offer.

One of the reasons so many of our people in the U.S. are Jehovah's Witnesses instead of Catholics is because of the different approaches of the two faiths.

JW's will knock on your door, come in your house, and sit down with you to preach their doctrine.

Catholics, on the other hand.....you wouldn't even know if they existed unless you were born one. 
They have churches and cathedrals in the middle of Black neighborhoods with no Black folks in them and are as quiet as mice...lol
They don't proselytize....they keep to themselves.
It's polite -but ineffective.

In a way I'm OPPOSITE of @Delano who puts out information and could care less whether you accept it or not.
I WANT you to believe the information I'm offering you and will drill it into you if I have to....lol.....and love doing so.
 

[Troy]

8 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

We know that the Crusades of the 10th, 11th, and 12th centuries (before the 1500s obviously) were largely based on race

 

Really, show me a credible source that says that.

 

@richardmurray I appreciate we are on different frequencies, but again I ask, because you may have missed my question:  Of the two explanations; (1) Chat GPT's and; (2) the Yacub story; which one would do you prefer.  I'm not saying to have to buy into it hook line and sinker, I'm just asking which one seems most plausible.

[Pioneer1]

29 minutes ago, Troy said:

 

Really, show me a credible source that says that.

 

@richardmurray I appreciate we are on different frequencies, but again I ask, because you may have missed my question:  Of the two explanations; (1) Chat GPT's and; (2) the Yacub story; which one would do you prefer.  I'm not saying to have to buy into it hook line and sinker, I'm just asking which one seems most plausible.

I thought it was a "given" that the Crusades was largely racially as well as religiously and culturally based.
I didn't think you needed a source to accept this because I thought you too also believed it.

Also, I'm curious as to which one of the explanations YOU think is more plausible yourself....lol.

[richardmurray]

@Pioneer1  

Fair enough, I think you are foolish wasting your energies drilling it into others, as you say. I oppose that way of supporting your views. 

I am 100% certain the christian wars against muslims , commonly called the crusades, were in the past largely and are in modernity partially based on religious race.  Moreover, the history of religious conversions throughout all humanity but especially in the time period in europe before what i call the european global imperial age, is a clear sign of extreme negative bias used through racial , religious race, standings. In the merchant of venice, the play from shakespeare, Shiloh is barred from his community for that conversion. If anything ,clarence thomas's treatment by the black community in the usa in modernity  shows a much more lenient racial environment to one deemed a traitor than in the past.

But the point is, it doesn't matter if another thinks race had nothing to do with the crusades at all. 

You are willing to drill but I don't need everyone to stand with my positions or views. 

Well, you call the modern catholic approach, the catholic church used to be a very strong proselytizer, ineffective, but I counter that correct label with another, while positive, honest. Let people come to you on their own. Even though I preached in this very post I will try my best to stop preaching/prosyletizin/selling  I don't want or need to preach/prosyletize/sell anymore. and though not easy in the usa, a country of preaching, i will try

 

And to my multitribal approach to the tribes in our village, since you love it, have fun preaching pioneer:) 

 

@Troy I didn't miss your question and I thought I answered it. I prefer neither. I have my own path/position/views. I am glad you both have yours. You use the word plausible, many able to be praised or applauded. I applaud or praise neither, but I don't like prosyletizing nor do I try to aid prosyletizing. you and pioneer can have all that. And yes, I will in the future fall into prosyletizing, but I try to exit out as fast as possible. 

 

[Troy]

@Pioneer1 was unaware of the racial/racist component of the crusades.  My understanding was that it was over religion which is a proxy for power.  Again if you can show me something (which seemingly you can't otherwise you would have done it by now) I'd be happy to read it.

 

I never brought into the Yacub stuff.  None of the African scholars I've read from Williams, to Clarke, to Van Sertima, etc ever espoused the Yacub stuff.  I've only known the NOI to promulgate the Yacub story.

 

You are wiley one @richardmurray    You did not answer the question.  It was a binary decision pick the best option, based upon the two.  It does not mean you agree with the choice; consider it choosing the least bad option.

 

In life we are often presented with these types of decisions.  You can refuse to choose but let's be clear that is what you are doing. 

 

So, which is it; (1) the 6,000-year-old Yacub myth or  (2) "...tied to the European colonial period and the transatlantic slave trade, which began in the 16th century?"

 

[richardmurray]

@Troy I did answer. You suggest I did not. ok. 

I have never considered myself wiley. 

[Troy]

OK I failed to understand your answer. Please help me out and just reply with your choice option 1 or 2 (as described above).  Thanks.

[Delano]

18 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

a way I'm OPPOSITE of @Delano who puts out information and could care less whether you accept it or not.

That's because I am focused on my learning. People understand based on their experiences. My goal is to be open an accepting. What is the value in getting converts to my way of thinking?

[Pioneer1]

2 minutes ago, Delano said:

That's because I am focused on my learning. People understand based on their experiences. My goal is to be open an accepting. What is the value in getting converts to my way of thinking?

 

It's a form of Success....if that's your intended goal.

[Troy]

@Delano and @Pioneer1, you are not opposite, but are looking at it from a self-centered perspective.  Let's consider the broader community:

 

We have people who do not believe in adverse impact of man-made climate change causing the planet to become increasingly in hospitable to human life.  We also have people who believe it but are uninterested in doing anything about it.

 

For the sake of future generations, it is important they we change the way these people think and ultimately behave.   Thats is just one example what the skill of getting someone to change their way of thinking is important to humanity.

 

How to get someone to change what they believe is actually well understood.  Marketers take advantage of this knowledge, for profit, every single day.  From a marketer's perspective and benefit or harm to their mark is unimportant.

 

Too bad we don't leverage this knowledge to better serve the world.

[Pioneer1]

Exactly....

I though it was a given that the very PURPOSE of most communication was to influence others and change their way of thinking....about a particular issue atleast.

If you go to a job interview and sit up there for an hour and the prospective employer thinks the same way when you leave as they did when you walked in, what are the chances of you getting that position?

[Delano]

@Troy what would you say is my position.

[Troy]

@Delano I think you stated your position quite clearly you are "focused on my learning." 

 

38 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

I though it was a given that the very PURPOSE of most communication was to influence others and change their way of thinking....about a particular issue atleast.

 

We communicate for different reasons as Delano stated we communicate to learn as well.  You can't learn if you are fixed on trying to get someone to see things your way.  Similarly, no one can benefit from your knowledge if you don't inform others and help them understand.

 

The trick is knowing when you should be learning or teaching. 

[Delano]

I post information that I think is useful. Which isn't really self centered because I am not trying to create agreement just thinking. Which is more altruistic. I don't see communication as propaganda. I am not a teacher, that doesn't mean someone can't learn from my posts.

[Pioneer1]

Delano

I COULD be considered selfish and self centered if you're steadily trying to RECEIVE (learn) rather than GIVE (teach) the gift of knowledge and beneficial information.

[Troy]

@Delano okay, yes when you post information that you think can help someone and it is recurved in a way that others find beneficial then you are teaching and that is not self centered.

 

i was replying to the statement made in this conversation, not about you in general. I don’t think you are a selfish person

 

speaking of propaganda. Some feel man-made climate change is propaganda.

 

[Delano]

4 hours ago, Troy said:

speaking of propaganda. Some feel man-made climate change is propaganda.

I think you know my position on this issue.

[Troy]

With a market-driven-AI-fueled-social-media-addicted population, any communication is propaganda.

 

@Pioneer1  Gary apparently committed suicide....

 

 

 

Trailer for movie on Gary Webb

 

 

[Pioneer1]

"Apparently" is the key word.

He APPEARED to have committed suicide.