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Troy

Black Women Can't Find Good a Black Man

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I was in Atlanta over the weekend, in the running for the “Literary Activist of the Year” Award. The awards ceremony was actually part of an entire weekend of events hosted by AAMBC (African Americans on the Move Book Club).  I attended one of the events, a panel discussion billed as the following:

“Meet relationship experts Terry Deron, Jevon Dewand, Gregory Alan Williams, and Stephan Labossiere and others in a conversational piece moderated by Rolling Out journalist Christal Jordan.”

The Brothers on the panel were all good looking, very articulate, and successful.  Two were former professional athletes, one was an author and artist, and the other was an actor.  They all have published books.  I was impressed with what they had to say and told them so during the Q and A.

But a couple of things that were said during the presentation really struck me though.  One was a statement by journalist Christal Jordan, who was the panel's moderator.  I was able to catch records just a portion of what she said, (on the 20-second video below. She prefaced a question to the four gentlemen on the panel with a very negative statement against Black men.  If I was on the panel, I would have challenged the preface entire preface of her question. 

Before I could whip out my camera, Christal also cited a statistics to bolster her argument supporting the difficult of Black women to find a good Black man.  She said there was an 18 to 1 ratio of Black women to men (in favor of men). She did not cite a source, but the stat was accepted as true, unquestioned, by those on the panel. 

During the Q&A a woman (virtually all of the attendees were women), asked one of the Brothers why he was not married since the odds were 18 to 1 in his favor.  The Brother replied, without missing a beat “…the odds were good, but the goods were odd.” I was actually taken aback by that statement and began to wonder if Christal had a point, because if a so-called relationship expert would say something like that what must the average Brother think?

The same Brother, who was previously married and now divorced, went on to say that he wanted to find the right women because he was not interested in getting divorced again, which is completely understandable, but was unnecessary and simply wrong to indict an entire population of Black women, based on nothing more than his own experience

During the Q&A I asked all the panelists to say what their marital status was.  None were married, two were divorced (one twice), and they all had children. I did not say this, but I find it just crazy that we always trot out Brothers who have not demonstrated any success at maintaining a long-term healthy relationship as "experts" (think Steve Harvey).

It is no wonder so many sisters believe that Black men are out to hurt them.

It also made me think of the conversation about Viola Davis' Time cover photo, where the assumption, despite statements to the counter, was that because I did not like the photo and found it subtly racist that I must be hating on Viola Davis, and by extension Black women in general—which is just ludicrous.

Is the strife between Black men and women really that bad?

 

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 @TroyWell, right off the bat, you make an subjective statement about the engagement between the posters on this board, and it gives a clue as to how black men and women see things.  You said that you were attacked by us women for saying the photo of Viola was racist and that we accused you of hating on back women.  Not exactly true.  I, myself, was saying that you guys considered a smiling picture of a typical looking dark-skinned black woman as a caricature and posted a grotesque picture of "Wanda" and other coonish black characters in an attempt to make your point, blaming the media instead of your preconceived notions of how black women should be made to look in order to win white respect.To me, this gives a clue as to how black women are always on the defensive and black men are insensitive to them and hyper-sensitive to white motives.  

i always use my family as a test group when trying to glean information because this group is a made up of all types. So i will share the feed back i have gotten over time about the black man/black woman schism. 

My single, very attractive 40-something daughter is the first source for my observations of this subject.  She's an Account- Exec for  ComEd which is one of the regional electric companies that fall under the giant  Exelon Energy Corporation umbrella. She makes about $90,000 per, plus a big  year-end performance bonus, owns her own home and another house, a foreclosed property which she got for peanuts, and now rents out.  She drives a BMW and a Road Ranger,  all of these acquisitions spanning about a 10-year period. She came close to marriage twice but never took the plunge, a decision she was later glad she made because her perspective grooms turned out to be "losers". She has no regrets about never marrying. Most of the men she dates are not single but partners in unhappy marriages.

She has 2 girlfriends and several co-workers that are pretty much in the same category as she is.  What they say is that all the good guys are gone, most of them married to high school or college sweethearts who they "married in haste and are now repenting in leisure/boredom", marriages kept together by children. Other prospects include divorced men who all seem to be enjoying the player lifestyle, taking advantage of the 18 to 1 odds.

These women say, the longer you wait, the more picky you become, more set in your ways.  The also say that looks and color do matter, claiming the many black men are color-conscious and not great fans of heavy women.  On the other hand, these "divas"  don't like nerds or wimps, prefer guys with swag, a decent-paying job, a car, and  good bedroom skills, - dudes who don't seem to be that plentiful. They also are leery of control freaks who can also be physically abusive, or egocentrics who can't handle rejection. .White women are their nemesis when it comes to  the dating pool.

So, yes, the conclusion that black women can't find good men seems to be true.  Considering the odds, a black woman would really have to be a superstar to land even a Mister Alright .  Black guys, however, have the luxury of marrying up, snaring professional  financially-secure women. desperate to get married and ready to settle. Once again poor sistas get the short end of the stick.

My other older daughter is divorced  and currently in a casual relationship.  Her only comment on this subject is that any black woman who is blessed enough to have found her "Boaz", has God to thank for this.

My middle-aged bachelor  son recently told me that the woman he was dating informed him that she asked god for guidance and he told her not to marry him.  He seemed more miffed that disappointed.  i just laughed preferring not to tell him i agreed with her decision.

My ghetto homeboy 26 year-old grandson who has 2 baby mommas, confides that he wishes he could "pull" a nice girl instead of the "thots" who give them their numbers in the drive-thru at the fast food restaurant where he works.  He said he's tired of the promiscuous young girls who make themselves available to him, sending him nude photos thinking nothing of not being sure what his last name is, verifying it  only in case they want to tag him when they post explicit pics on FaceBook. 

My 20 year old good boy Paramedic intern grandson simply says he prefers Hispanic girls. My 13 year-old great grandson, echos this, saying black girls are too loud and bossy.

My other 20 year old computer whiz grandson says he hasn't made up his mind about what he likes but has many online friends who, like him,suspect they are asexual  and are perfectly content to be so. My granddaughter, his pretty 18 year-old class salutatorian sister, is on her way to Indiana State University in the fall and has been so sheltered i can only hope her going to an almost all-white high school will not hamper her interaction with black kids and black guys in particular at college.  She is being encouraged to make friends of her own race and get to know her own people. 

Welcome to 2017, Folks!   

 

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Troy....man you KNOW what you're doing when you start threads like this.
Lol....you know....you DO know....lol.


But a couple questions..............

1. What qualifies one as a "good" Black man?
The term "good" means different things to different people and what a man may considered "good" in a man may not be what women consider good.


Furthermore.....
2. For over 30 years we've heard about the lack of good Black men, but what if I were to declare there was an equal lack of "good" Black women too !?

The men are in part shaped and formed by the women who gave birth to them, so if there's a lack of good men then what does that say about the women who produced them?

 

There's too much complaining and waiting going on and not enough planning and engineering.

At some point as a community we're going to have to decide what type of traits the majority of us (because ALL of us will never agree) would like to see in the opposite sex and start trying to develop these traits in our children so that they'll have them when they become adults.
....instead of letting people grow up wild like weeds and then complaining about them afterwards.

 

 

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My mother asked me why i don't date more black women. A few years later it became how come you don't date American women. I am not certain you can say all Spanish women are fiery. Or that all White Women are passive. Tiger Woods ex wife is Nordic and she wasn't going for it.

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“Well, right off the bat, you make an subjective statement about the engagement between the posters on this board, and it gives a clue as to how black men and women see things.  You said that you were attacked by us women for saying the photo of Viola was racist and that we accused you of hating on back women.  Not exactly true.  I, myself, was saying that you guys considered a smiling picture of a typical looking dark-skinned black woman as a caricature and posted a grotesque picture of "Wanda" and other coonish black characters in an attempt to make your point, blaming the media instead of your preconceived notions of how black women should be made to look in order to win white respect.To me, this gives a clue as to how black women are always on the defensive and black men are insensitive to them and hyper-sensitive to white motives.”  

Nice! I could not have articulated it better! The adolescent reactionary racist hysteria to Ms. Davis’s photo on the cover of Time magazine is sickening and indefensible. I will not further my opinion beyond that because I have already posted it. But I love the accuracy and clarity of your commentary. But I will say this and move on, I presented the photo to two women yesterday, one was black and the other was a Latina. Which one do you think had nothing but derision and scathing negative comments while the other (who knew of Ms. Davis’s acting) thought the picture was natural, showed her in an instant of warranted jubilation and  stated she saw nothing negative about the photo?

As far as this so-called relationship expert(?)  conference focusing on black male/female relationships, a ratio of 18-1 (total lie!) and the alleged black women’s exhausting struggle to find good black men…well…out of respect for the members of this forum, I will refrain from giving my exhaustive opinion. By doing so I would torch this board and probably get banned. I find these so-called symposiums and conferences of the black women whining about a so-called lack of good black men to be a sham, a pathetic and embarrassingly desperate attempt for attention and self-aggrandizement. E’nuff said…..

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@Cynique, your reply was beautifully written, poignant, and rang true on all levels.  You have a gift.  I wish I could relate stories as easily.

That said, I really do not think I way off base when I wrote the reaction to my perception of Viola's Time cover.  The way I worded my statement it may have sounded like I was describing your's, @Mel Hopkins's @Delano's, and anyone on the opposite side of the argument as exactly the same. Of course, that would not be fair and not my intent.  I was summarizing very briefly, what I took away from the entire conversation. Of course, the details were more nuanced...

But Xeon's statement illustrates my point:

Just because the respondents agreed with your racial paranoia doesn't vindicate you, it just makes you all ashamed of black women.”

Again, while you and the others did not say this explicitly, taken as a whole, this statement, as ludicrous as it might seem to me is it not out of line with the overall sentiment of those on the opposing side of our the debate.  

Cynique, do you agree with Xeon's assessment of my opinion of the issue?  Obviously, I reject it, but based on your intuition, the reading of what I actually wrote, and what you know of me what do you think?

@Pioneer1, I was not trying to start anything other than thought and conversation.  It was just that the way Christal described the situation with trying to obtain a relationship with Black men hit me in much the same way the reaction to our perception of Time Magazine's photo of Viola hit me--unexpected and intense. 

What does a "Good Black" man mean?  Man I dunno...seemingly it means perfection;;) immune to the ravages of racism, strong, financially secure, tall, handsome, smart, spiritually sound, a good communicator, great protector, compassionate, great in bed, in physical shape, gets along with your family, a good cook, no kids, no crazy exs, likes everything you like, has no vices, and is in love with every aspect of your imperfections.  Does that sound about right?

Of course, if men are looking for the exact same thing in a woman, there would a shortage of them too... that is, "the "goods are odd."

Perhaps this is where the problem resides.  Many of us appear to be looking for characteristics in our partners that don't exist in any human and are characteristic we do not possess ourselves.

@Delano why don't you date more Black American women?  Interestingly, I was never interested in dating anything but Black American women, but that was more due to the provincial nature in my youth.

@Xeon, please feel free to express yourself. In 20 years, no one has every been banned for expressing their opinion.  Now if you come at Cynique sideways, we have a problem.

 

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Wait? @Troy How did I get into this one LOL! I was doing my best to stay out of this controversial topic.  

But since you called my name... the last year I was proposed to by a black man was 2013... and practically every year prior to that of my adult years.  Well, not while I was married. I was off the market then. But even before my divorce was final it was a white man who proposed that year.  

But I do know what this woman is talking about, unfortunately, and I've dated some real "good black man catches" ...

In fact, one GBM couldn't make it into town but put me on his guest list for one these exclusive club here in Atlanta. He wanted me to go and enjoy myself with everything on his account. It was all arranged I just couldn't see myself going on a date alone because I knew what type of life I was setting myself up for.  But that's the level he was operating on... . I've dated some trashy BM/WM/LM too. I married a white man but he was exactly what I needed in my life at the time.  I needed to get over my black baby daddy who was the love of my life but our affair was far too tumultuous for my maturity level.  Still, to this day, I would label him a good black man.  We were just star-crossed.  

 I've dated the UN since I was 16 years old and then my boyfriend was a bona fide Alabama white cracker and we were in love.   So maybe that's why the sisters are salty - they've only dated or waited for Black Knights and for me knights come in different shades of black - from light white to dark black.  

I stay away from married men but like @Cynique mentioned they are an easy pick. I learned a few years ago, I'm not as open as I thought I was. I like honesty and I was hedging (I think that's the correct term) into in a polyamorous relationship when I figured out, I don't like to share men. I'm not a jealous type though I'm a serial monogamist.

But chile puh-lease, don't get me started.   I love the inner intensity of black men - they smolder white hot internally,and are exciting! White men burn hot externally and Latin men are just fire (too much fire to be exact and us as a couple is dangerous liaison  because I have a bad temper when unleashed.) I came close to dating an Asian man but I can't remember why it didn't continue.   

I learned getting any of those dudes to propose means you practically must become a chameleon and morph into their ideal... I was good at that which is why I got so many proposals but from my experience black men were the most difficult to convert from single to married.  I did turn a few but they were the most difficult.   Maybe it's because black men are used to down home cooking and the other men aren’t. I made mashed potatoes, green beans, pork chops smothered in an onion gravy for the white guy (One I mentioned up there) he disappeared for about two-three weeks -I thought damn maybe I shouldn't have cooked for him.   When he resurfaced, it was with a proposal with conditions. I had to promise to give him one son.    I was like dude I have 3 daughters and there's no guarantee and I just can't take that chance.  So, we ended.  

Most of my relationships ended when it came to the prospect of having more children or me keeping up the charade.  There are very few men I know of any shade that are interested in marrying fat and out of shape women.  I know some women don't like to hear that but for most of men, aesthetics matter - men like looking at and waking up to pretty...just like women like looking at and waking up to gorgeous/handsome.  So, I don't know why any of us trip when it comes to looks.    

Anyway, what I've learned about black men is what most married women know. The BM I’ve dated don't want to be controlled or conquered they want to be won over. That's a dance within itself.   The fact that those men on the panel have been married multiple times speaks to this point.  Black Men want to be married (I learned that the hard way).  It's been my experience that  most men want to be married.   

So, not sure what this battle is going on between the sheets... and that woman's statistics don't match the U.S. census figures - so she may be talking about eligible single BM with a certain amount of wealth and education in comparison to women of equal stature. 

 

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@Troy i have friends from across the globe. I have gone out with African, Dominican, European, Australian, Austrian and Nordic. 

I think you can ask the question in reverse. Why are Black women less intersted in a nerdy, thinking, democratic guy who likes to dance. I think about this because when i was younger i didn't like brothers who dated non Black. I think the main reason is that I am too laid back. Plus I'm idiosyncractic. I'm pretty democratic with looks and weight.there's got to be a vibe. People used ti ask me what is my type. My response was a woman with that indescribable thing. I went out with a dark skin sister that was 5'5" and 95 pounds and a light skin sister that was almost double that weight. I guess for me i used to pick women the same way i picked friends. Interest. 

When i was younger I was into clubbing and the artsy fartsy crowd. If i was in Atlanta i probably woyld have dated more sisters.

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Del that last point was probably more important than you realize.  Perhaps that is true because there are more differences genetically, within the so-called "races" than there are between.  One of the great failings of western cultures is the creation of so-called racial differences. It creates unnecessary strife.

Mel I did not mean to drag you into this :) but of course, your comments are always prized.

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3 hours ago, Delano said:

Thank you Troy Mel and Cynique.

Twin, @Delano, I had to give you props! You hit 2-3 of my soft spots! I'm a nerd, nerd-lover and I'm a dancing queen...I don't drink, do drugs or smoke but I will go clubbing to dance the night away.

When I worked as a flight attendant, during one Denver layover, I met up with a facebook friend and he took me to this  place called the "beauty bar "  OMG!!! The DJ played old school soul music from 9 - 2 am! I never left the floor.  The next day, I had a flight back to  O'Hare,  I told the Captain I had danced all night at this club. Don't you know when I deplaned, I was met for a drug test!!! Dude ratted me out but I was clean - and still floating that I had an opportunity to get my dance on.  

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@Mel Hopkins that was quite a testimony you shared with us about your love life, certainly in keeping with your atypical black experience, something that  you have shaped and which has shaped you with the aid of your self awareness and  insight into human nature.  It seems so simple and obvious that if woman wants to snare a man she has to create a need for her by being the personification of what he wants. But this truism can be lost on black women whose self absorption has become a defense mechanism  and whose independence can be intimidating to black men and their fragile egos.  These  men aren't really into the self-sacrifice that black women are called upon to make. And they don't have to be, considering the ratio between eligible black males and the black females in competition for them. So, it is hard out there for a single sista. She might do better to employ reverse psychology by telling a man she's not interested in getting married, thereby making herself a challenge whose mind he wants to change.

@Troy Xeon may have been  a little hard on you.  i don't think you hate  black women, but you do hate the media and you showed your love for black women with your implication that TIME was exploiting Viola Davis who did, after all, consent to the pose and the artistic concept of her TIME cover.  I don't know that black men have earned the right to judge how  black women decide to have themselves portrayed.                                                                                                                           

@Del i think you  make an important point about how chemistry between 2 people can transcend all of the racial overtones and psychological implications and sociological influences of the black mating game.  Some times people just click!  (Maybe because they knew each other in another life. ;))

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Cynique in reaction to, "I don't know that black men have earned the right to judge how black women decide to have themselves portrayed."

Point taken.

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I don't believe anyone has the right to make global judgements. Which is why I avoid jury duty.

As a kid i was bullied by White kids. And until I had more positive experiences I was prejudiced. I remember Richard Pryor joking about the difference between Black and White people. And he said Italians were a bit different. 

I find judgemental people more likely to aligned with hatred and prejudice than open minded people. 

Thanks twin , thats why we're twins. Although Cynique saw it. And Pioneer derides it. 

This site is Troy's labour of love. Some of Troy's comments fall somewhere on the sexist scale. Although i dont think HE is a misogynist or hidden homosexual homophobe.

I will mention a couple of instances that underly that knowing bit across the racial divide. 

Mel my big thing was I don't control you and you don't control me. A lot ofWomen not just Black Women can't manage that very well.

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Del in reaction to, "...I don't think HE is a misogynist or hidden homosexual homophobe."

Why thank you. Look like your psychic abilities are firing on all cylinders. ;)

Keep in mind, I have been known to engage in hyperbole to emphasize a point, play devil's advocate to introduce a different perspective, or just say something 'cause I know it might tune someone up :ph34r: (but I don;t do that very often).

Labour of love? Man, I'm trying to stack dat serious paper! I gots t get paid!

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14 hours ago, Cynique said:

It seems so simple and obvious that if woman wants to snare a man she has to create a need for her by being the personification of what he wants.

@Cynique This statement is so funny too me .   One of my best friends , a life-long single-no children-petite-gorgeous-wealthy-professionally-successful-woman, refused to sacrifice her personality for any man.  She had a blooming love life but only dated a black man once,  and that's when she closing up the legal affairs on her parents estate.  She hired him to close up one of her homes in Philly...

... She'd later confess to me she was in an weakened state.  He had a daughter, she adored, the little girl's name was "Destiny," which held a special significance for her.  She would "study" the man's baby mama "...In fact, you would have thought she was Jane Goddall  the way she observed and reported on black men.  She observed and thought black women would have to be contortionists, to deal with black men.


It was funny to me at the time because her observation was my "normal".   I worked as a marketer in my professional life and it carried over to my persona;.  Sadly, if my experience serves as evidence - then I'd have to agree, black women would have to sacrifice self - and that too could be a reason they're salty.

When the woman, I spoke of above passed away, I changed a lot of things in my life and it included stopping the charade and contortionist act in my dating.. Needless to say my dating love life  changed drastically.   I wish I can say I care but I don't.   Today, I show up in all my relationships, life is too long to sacrifice or hide any part of me .   

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Here is an axiom:  Marriage and raising kids requires sacrifice.

Sometimes that sacrifice requires doing something that you'd prefer not doing.  Mel it sounds like what you are describing as "contortion," is simply sacrifice.  I might be misunderstanding you, but you can clarify if I'm wrong by giving me examples or elaborating on what you mean.

I'm not suggesting that a woman (or a man) completely give up on their dreams and their personality for their partner. But the married you simply can not behave the same way as the unmarried you.  People who fail to recognize this, or refuse to do it, should never get married.  If they do it will never last or they will be miserable  Marriage is an ongoing series of compromises--especially if you have children.

To me dating requires no sacrifice; you're just doing fun things with someone you like.  When the fun is over you both go home. 

Sorry read about the passing of your friend.

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23 minutes ago, Troy said:

I might be misunderstanding you, but you can clarify if I'm wrong by giving me examples or elaborating on what you mean.

@Troy, Maybe you didn't read my post  and part of the conversation that @Cynique is referring to.. - This thread, you've started, talks about black women believing they can't find a good black man.  ... I didn't think that was true but I did explain how I had to become the "ideal" to get those proposals ... Thank you.  My bestie, didn't sacrifice any of her personality to become "marriage material".. most black woman as @Cynique mentioned are no longer willing to sacrifice self just to get a proposal. They rather black men meet them where they are -- and deal with them from there. 

This post, as I've read, so far doesn't discuss post marriage proposal and engagement...right?

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Mel I was reacting to the statement;

Sadly, if my experience serves as evidence - then I'd have to agree, black women would have to sacrifice self - and that too could be a reason they're salty.

Which I apparently misconstrued as applying to the relationship part--my bad.

But I assumed the reason this woman, women in general, want to find a "good Black man" is that they are interested a long term committed relationship, marriage, a family.

I was just observing that if a woman feels they have to go through mental and emotional gymnastics just to attract a decent dude; they are going to be in for a rough ride once the relationship gets going because that is not sustainable behavior over the long term.

 

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30 minutes ago, Troy said:

I was just observing that if a woman feels they have to go through mental and emotional gymnastics just to attract a decent dude; they are going to be in for a rough ride once the relationship gets going because that is not sustainable behavior over the long term.

@Troy yes, THAT WAS ME!!! It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye lol... I couldn't keep it up which is why I said "No" every time.  



These young black women today, don't play those games when it comes to dating to marry - they show up warts and all.... and that's why it's difficult for them to make a covenant with a black man.  As @Cynique mentioned black men don't have to accept black women as they are -(paraphrasing) there are too many other women willing to play to the black man's personality weaknesses  and trust that is exactly what I was doing to - I was playing to the man's weakness not his strength... to get him to propose.  As I said though, I couldn't keep it up and weakness (both mine and his) is not something you want to build a relationship on.  


When I did get married, I had never put on act because I didn't think I wanted to marry my husband .. so he saw me for me...but marriage is  whole other story...  

Marriage is quite unnatural but is a great experiment of merging two personalities into one... especially if you're totally open and don't hide anything.  It gets really good when you actually see the other person...not their habits because that's not them but  see them as they are at the core.   That's when marriage is perfect and desirable. 

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Yeah, I don't marriage is natural either, it is a social construct that most fail at achieving--perhaps because it is an unnatural state.  

I think many single older people are unnecessary miserable because the idea of marriage is so strongly drummed into our psyches we feel we are failures unless we have achieved it.

As far as being completely open for a perfect marriage, that I'm not so sure about...

I think that is why we have friends and therapists.

 

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I just recently read an article that said, contrary to popular belief, children should not be the most important thing in a marriage. Parents should take care of their needs first because  this makes them better parents and that children are the ones who need to learn self sacrifice because this will prepare them for the real world.  The guy who wrote this, said this is the way it used to be, before children became accessories and/or objects of worship by their parents.  I would add that children need love and guidance and this does not necessarily mean they have to be center of their parent's universe, or conduits for these parents to lead their own  lives through.   

What i learned about marriage is that it usually isn't a 50-50 proposition. The roles eventually sort themselves out through trial and error until it is determined who is best at being charge of what, and this doesn't necessarily come out even.  And this is one reason experts say  marriage is something you have to work at.

Marriage is a merger between 2 people and the merger becomes an entity that takes on a life of its own and reflects the character of your partnership.  Sometimes it isn't worth the trouble. But it helps if you try to keep your passion for each other alive and learn to laugh together and, last but not least, - learn to like each other.  My husband eventually became my best friend, and now my kids are more like my siblings than my offspring because we are good friends.  At my 80th birthday party, i looked around the crowded room at my children, their children, and their children's children, and realized that if it wasn't for me, none of those present would've been alive.  That's was kinda fulfilling because they're a pretty decent bunch; diverse, but decent. 

 

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6 hours ago, Troy said:

As far as being completely open for a perfect marriage, that I'm not so sure about...

There's nothing so satisfying as being SEEN by the one with whom you share Life and LOVE... 

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Cynique that is on the money. 

Troy I find the role reversal interesting. This time I am talking about the practicality of my relationships. While you are talking generally and in theory.  

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As far as finding and marrying "good" Black men and women-

I don't have much to say about this subject because I've never been too crazy about relationships.
I can count on one hand the number of long term relationships I've been in.

Not trying to sound callous, but I was more of a "hit it and go" type of brother who got bored if I was stuck with the same woman and her alone for more than 2 months....lol.

Some people are just not meant to be in relationships, and as a society we have to simply make room for those type of people.

When you try to force them to get married or even encourage them to do so you're only making more unnecessary problems because then you force them to be "fake" just to try and get along and do what everyone else is doing even if it's unnatural to them.

I'm happy that I recognized about myself early on before getting married that I WASN'T meant to play the "family guy" game and avoided such....although some people considered it selfish and irresponsible.

Even in most professional circles like being a doctor, lawyer, or professor...it's almost REQUIRED that you be married to be seen as "respectable" and mature.

 

 

Troy

I was not trying to start anything other than thought and conversation. It was just that the way Christal described the situation with trying to obtain a relationship with Black men hit me in much the same way the reaction to our perception of Time Magazine's photo of Viola hit me--unexpected and intense.

You know what?

I'm beginning to believe that the entire concept of there not being enough "good" Black men to go around was some sort of meme or mental virus that was started back in the 80s and now a lot of women are using it as an excuse to cover for their failed relationships.



 


Cynique

I don't know that black men have earned the right to judge how black women decide to have themselves portrayed.

Should the right to constructively criticize our women out of love be EARNED?
Or should it be an UNALIENABLE right that doesn't have to be earned any more than we have to earn the right to protect or marry our women?



 

Delano

Mel my big thing was I don't control you and you don't control me. A lot ofWomen not just Black Women can't manage that very well.

This is because just like there is no such thing as a relationship where there are 2 independant people, there is no such thing as a relationship where no one is controling the other.
Anytime 2 human beings spend a meaningful amount of time with eachother and exchange energies...SOMEBODY has the upperhand even if only slightly and unknowingly.


 

My mother asked me why i don't date more black women. A few years later it became how come you don't date American women.

Lol.....
If I found out MY son was hanging out at ballet theaters, I wouldn't give a damn WHAT type of woman he was dating....as long as he was dating WOMEN!
 


Mel

Marriage is quite unnatural but is a great experiment

Ofcourse the institution of marriage as practiced in the WEST is unnatural...especially for Black people.
It wasn't designed BY us or FOR us.

Most of the problems Black people in the United States have with marriage....as with many of their other problems like drinking alcohol, smoking cigarettes, ect....comes from IMITATING WHITE PEOPLE.

If we'd just stop trying to imitate them and do our own thang, we'd realize we have far more in common with eachother NATURALLY and most of what we THINK are dysfunctions would simply melt away into harmony.

We.....Black people....TAUGHT WHITE PEOPLE how to get married.

But we gave them a very simplified form (monogamous) with a simplified family structure (nuclear) that was designed for their simplistic linear mindset; but our traditional indigenous marriage systems that we had before being forced to abandon them were FAR more complex but they worked for us.

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Pioneer how are you making global statements about marriage? When by your own admission your relationship tend to be short term?

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On 16/06/2017 at 5:12 AM, Cynique said:

                                                                                                          

@Del i think you  make an important point about how chemistry between 2 people can transcend all of the racial overtones and psychological implications and sociological influences of the black mating game.  Some times people just click!  (Maybe because they knew each other in another life. ;))

I remember seeing the my children's mother 7 years before we met. Why I remembered someone I didn't talk to is a bit of a mystery.

Funny, since my current partner and  I seem to have some past life connections.

Pioneer you are mistaken your life for Life. Which puts all of your statements in perspective.

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3 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Should the right to constructively criticize our women out of love be EARNED?
Or should it be an UNALIENABLE right that doesn't have to be earned any more than we have to earn the right to protect or marry our women?

Well one person's constructive criticism is another one's hyper-criticism. You have a right to freedom of speech but you don't have an inalienable right to think a woman's gives a damn about adhering to your personal standards. Black women have earned their independence and it their inalienable right to dismiss the opinion of men if they so choose. 

 And you do have to earn the right to marry  a woman.  It's not a given.  Don't couple wedding a woman with protecting one. 

BTW, there a word for what you describe your self as being.  it's called a "bachelor."

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@Mel Hopkins, your statement, "There's nothing so satisfying as being SEEN by the one with whom you share Life and LOVE... "

Is particularly intriguing.  Obviously, you believe this is possible.  I'm not so sure. Perhaps couple can get close and maybe is an admirable goal, but I wonder if it is truly achievable.  Now I believe people can share their lives and love each the, but the "SEEN" part is what is getting me caught up.

How different people see another person is always different because we see things differently.  For example, I'm sure Del sees Pioneer differently than Pioneer sees himself, and Del definitely sees Pioneer differently than I see him.  Which perspective is "true?"  Who truly see's Pioneer?  Is it even possible?

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40 minutes ago, Troy said:

 Now I believe people can share their lives and love each the, but the "SEEN" part is what is getting me caught up.

@Troy ,If you're caught up on the "seen" then that's where your focus belongs.   Your focus is not on how others see . That's irrelevant in this task.   Are YOU are willing to to "see" your life partner.   Are you willing to see your partner objectively?  This means to see her at her core... See past her  behaviors and habits and into the heart of her maybe even more deeply than she's willing to see herself.    

If you are it ceases to be a task and instead becomes an ability.   

Edited by Mel Hopkins
added name

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...maybe I don't really understand what you mean by seeing someone Mel. I can see a lot of people.  But I'd be willing to bet that they don't see themselves the way I see them.

There is a Brother I know, who I "see" as a sociopath; not the kind to kill someone and put them in the freezer to eat later, but the type of Brother that will deceive you for personal gain.  It is not the deception that is this issue it is the lack of guilt.  He is capable of expressing emotion, but this is something he understands how to do to portray himself in a way to get what he wants.  He
is very smart.  I know a few brothers like this.  

Now I "see" this Brother, but I suspect he does not see himself this way.  If I explained how I (and others who share my sentiment) to him, I doubt he would feel "satified."  Do who see what I mean.

It is not the ability that I'm questioning necessarily it is the differences in our perspectives I'm calling into question.

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5 hours ago, Troy said:

...maybe I don't really understand what you mean by seeing someone Mel

@Troy It's because you're  over-thinking it. ( I never use that term.  lol)  But You can't think your way into "seeing" someone.   It's not with the mind or eyes, it's with the heart. 

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OK, I'm sure you are right Mel.  I'm been in overthinking mode lately, maybe I need to chill out :unsure:

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I guess for me it is acknowledging the totality of the people I love. Without attaching a value to a judgement so it becomes an observation.For instance my ex wife and I have extreme difficulty having a normal conversation, due to our personalities and emotional history.  Yet I offered to help her move. Because she can use the help. It's propapbly the best conversation we have had in years. Because I was ale to see her an her situation. And not make it about my disappointments. Even while I was there and made it a point to be of assistance. And she appreciated that because she knows that I think strategically and despite it all she knows that I am going to to try and be helpful without Ego.

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Del

Pioneer how are you making global statements about marriage? When by your own admission your relationship tend to be short term?

For the same reasons that I'm not a criminal but I still know how to keep my valuables out of sight and my doors locked when I'm in a shady area or around shady people.

A little experience and common sense goes a long way.

I know quite a few people who are IN long term relationships (20, 30, 50 years) so I know it's possible.
But again, there are almost never two "equals" in the relationship.



Pioneer you are mistaken your life for Life. Which puts all of your statements in perspective.

And you appear to be mistaking "M-I-S-T-A-K-E-N" for "M-I-S-T-A-K-I-N-G".

.....work on that.

 


Critique Cynique

Well one person's constructive criticism is another one's hyper-criticism. You have a right to freedom of speech but you don't have an inalienable right to think a woman's gives a damn about adhering to your personal standards.

They obviously do, or they wouldn't be so angry or sad or frustrated when Black men criticize it.
Too many girls are growing up without fathers or real men in their lives, the only affirmation of their beauty or femininity is coming from their mothers.....who often themselves don't have a clue on what real beauty or femininity looks like in the eyes of a Black man.

To me, it has to meet two requirements for it to be legitimate constructive criticism:

1. It's a critique about something that the person can actually change or do something about
2. The critique is followed up with helpful advice to actually improve the problem being critiqued.


 

Troy

Who truly see's Pioneer? Is it even possible?

It's possible, but I don't make it easy.
I'm one of those bruthas who likes to keep strips of tape over his computer webcams....lol.

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Del

Pioneer you are mistaken. Your life is not Life

Perhaps YOU are the one mistaken.

Perhaps your "past lives" weren't really lives at all.

Ever thought of the possibility that you were actually recalling the genetic recordings of your ANCESTORS' LIVES that was encoded in their DNA and passed down to yours but when you recall them you mistake them for your own?

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