Pioneer1

Del No, it's not irrelevant. It's actually in line with what I said earlier about doctors having to swear a HIPPOCRATIC OATH. They are basically taking an oath to Hippocrates who is an important figure in ancient Greek mythology.

Not every body is a mamby-pamby bland person who prefers to go along to get along No. But on the flip side, it also becomes a problem when one goes OUT OF THEIR WAY to be disagreeable and combative. Pretty soon, they're looked upon as just a little obnoxious orang-u-tang who hangs around looking for trouble, lol..

Del If you got rid of the church and religion would it change science? I would say so. Science and Religion attempt to answer large questions. The validity of those answers appears to be personal. If they were to get rid of church and religion, not only would "science" collapse in the West but WESTERN CIVILIZATION ITSELF would collapse. Western civilizatoin was built off of Christian morality and values. Even most atheists in the West adhere to basic Christian values..... They get married and those marriages are monogamous. They take Sundays off on most of their jobs and don't do business transactions on Sundays. They use Christmas and Thanksgiving as opportunities to spend time with their families and tie up the airports. They even use the expression "oh my god" on a routine basis but CLAIM they don't mean anything by it, lol.

Please don't say the Black Panther movie for I think you will discover that it will not change the world and make it better for Black people -- despite all the hype to the contrary. Actually, I think and predict that the Black Panther movies will do more for Black America than President Obama did.....lol. The movie...like Obama....gives HOPE and INSPIRATION. Look, ofcourse Wakanda is made up BUT it gives you an illustration of how a successful and powerful Black society could possibly look if one were to exists! And that's the beauty of it. Sometimes people have to SEE something before they can consider the possibility of it. 　 How else could wealth inequality be so great, or how could so many people, be so impoverished, or go without health coverage, with all the charitable people we have? There is so much poverty and lack of decent healthcare in America because Black people ALLOW this to be so! I'll probably get push back from you and Cynique (lol) about this, but it goes right back to what I've said so often. Most of the problems Black and poor people face in this nation are OUR FAULT because we haven't exercised our rights as American citizens the way we should. Black people get into office and too often just continue the same narrative as their White predecessors. More business as usual. Black people become mayor and instead of getting rid of the old city constitution and charter and making a NEW one....they keep the same one that the White founders of the city wrote up 200 years ago; and wonder why the city falls apart. Like I said, Black people operate best when we do OUR THING and make up OUR RULES. You may think this is crazy as hell, but with Obama in office and so many Black people in congress...Black men could have solved the "Broken Black Family" problem in 5 years by making POLYGAMY LEGAL in the United States instead of gay marriage. But the thought probably never even crossed their minds. White men in Utah have no problem pushing it, but Black men who INVENTED it are afraid to even mention it, lol. A fool will keep playing a game invented by someone else and WONDER why they keep losing.

Troy Where is the flaw in telling people they in control of the own lives and to think positively? Number one, it's a lie....lol. And by it's very nature, lies are inherently flawed because they are incorrect. No one on this planet is in complete control of their own lives and destiny, and the poorer and more powerless you are.....the less control you have. You may have some INFLUENCE, but you don't control it. Number two, positive thinking alone and simply wishing and believing alone can not only be useless but down right DANGEROUS because it causes you to be so happy and content in your miserable condition that you won't do anything to change it. If you are diagnosed with a serious disease and the cure calls for you to take action, positive thinking alone could cause you to ignore the disease and neglect proper treatment.

The problem I have with many of these so-called "prosperity preachers" like Osteen and others is that they tell their congregation and audience that everything they're going through is THEIR OWN fault. If you don't have a good job or decent healthcare it's YOUR FAULT. They teach them that if they just BELIEVE hard enough or change their attitude...they can change their reality. Unlike the Martin Luther King generation of preachers who took an active role in trying to better society...... This new generation of preachers are telling their flock not to focus on corrupt politicians or encouraging them to change governmental policies and fight for social justice as a way of achieving success.......just BELIEVE and THINK NICE THOUGHTS and everything will be alright.

Cynique I admit I was wrong for spelling "congratulating" as "congradulating". But will YOU admit that YOU were wrong for saying that science NEVER espouses religion after several of us have shown you otherwise? Will YOU accept some responsibility for a change? Troy even a broken clock is "NEVER" wrong, for it is correct 2 seconds every 24 hours. Of course only unreasonable people will argue that the clock is valid for that reason I don't understand your analogy. A broken clock may be right SOME of the time but wrong MOST of the time. How does "never" even factor into this example? Also keep in mind the terms BC AD are relatively new. There are thousands of years by scientists, in multiple cultures, where these terms were not used (for obvious reasons). Why hang your hat on such a specious and weak point? Is it really just to "win" this argument? Lol....come on bro, my motives are irrelevant. Whether the point is weak or strong is also irrelevant. Nor does it matter when BC or AD started being used by science. The fact that these terms are used at any time CANCELS OUT the statement that religion is NEVER espoused to science. Like Del said, if we take the emotions out of it......... Either what I'm saying is correct or it isn't. Either what Cynique said was correct or it wasn't.

No worries....lol....because now WHITE PEOPLE are begining to invest that same money back into Black neighborhoods themselves! -in the form of GENTRIFICATION. It's a damn shame that for decades you had thousands of wealthy Black people who HAD the money to re-invest in the inner city neighborhoods but chose to run out to the suburbs and help build the economy of White communities, and now young adventurous wealthy White kids are taking up the initiative to venture into the hood and buy up property to renuvate and pump money into.

After dealing with different types of people for decades I've discovered that during the course of a conversation: -There are people who stop talking and actually LISTEN to what the other conversant is saying. -And those who stop talking but instead of listening they're only waiting until the other conversant "shuts up" so they can continue running THEIR mouths.

A true culture includes your own language, your own religion or moral values, your own dietary habits, ect....... I used to think Black people in America had our own culture, but I now realize that to be more accurate what Black America has is actually a SUB-CULTURE. .....a modified form of Western culture that we were forced to carve out for ourselves to fit our needs and protect ourselves. If we hadn't, we would have been swallowed up decades if not centuries ago. But we really do need a COMPLETE culture of our own because I think it would be key to our success. It was African themed, but I think the Black Panther movies gives us a TASTE of what it would look like if Black America had it's own genuine successful culture. Although some Black people are smart enough and talented enough to find success in this society, the majority don't. I've said time and time again that Black people are the most successful when we play OUR way and by OUR OWN rules. If you look at illegal "street" venues like drugs, prostitution, and other illegal trades....Black people tend to thrive. The only thing that destroys their business operations getting arrested locked up, not poor business decisions...lol. Why? Because atleast when it comes to the street life they can make up their OWN rules without having to follow rigid guidelines, ever increasing demands for more education, and other obstacles put in their way in order to be successful.

Troy yes I still agree with the what Cynique wrote. Lets say that someone overheard me use the word Black or white to describe people. They might fall under the false assumption that I believe in Black and white races because I usedd the term in casual conversations Yes, I understand totally what you just said. However that is NOT the argument. A statement was made that science NEVER espouses religion. Despite the wealth of information that Del presented and me pointing out how scientists use terms like "Before Christ" as well as named planets and days of the week after deities of ancient GREEK RELIGION (mythology)....... You apparently still agree with Cynique that it NEVER does.

Cynique YAWN. Whatever. i'm going to watch the Oscars. As insipid as this program is, its better than wasting my time bickering with you and Del Now why am I NOT SUPRISED that a woman who just accused Africans of being cannibals who dance around boiling pots.....would rather watch a bunch of rich White people win awards for who's the best liar and pretender instead of talking with Black people about a Black movie, LOL.

Thanks for admitting your statement was atleast PARTIALLY wrong. I believe in congradulating progress, even if it's not complete....as a way of encouraging more.

Despite all of the speculation by your beloved White scientists.......no one today really KNOWS whether or not ancient Africans practiced cannibalism, so it would be silly to put it in the movie as an "African practice". However because WE ALL KNOW that Africans (both here and on the continent of Africa) practice POLYGAMY wide spread....then perhaps they SHOULD HAVE put that into the movie.

Ohhhh NOOOWWWW you're admitting that atleast an itsy bitsy tiny piece of your statement may contain some wrong in it...lol. OK, now we're starting to get somewhere. We're on our way yall !

I don't KNOW that ancient Africans practiced cannibalism (and neither do you) .....but I DO KNOW that Africans practice polygamy today. Instead of digging up ancient history that neither you nor I can actually prove, how about discussing something that is going on among Africans TO THIS VERY DAY that both you and I can easily verify.

Cynique Yes. This is what's known as being practical. So these scientists ESPOUSED religious terms to their scientific work for pratical purposes. The argument isn't whether they needed to or not, or whether it was practical or not....the argument was whether they ever DID IT or not. And they clearly did....which means your statement was wrong.

Del I like honesty and choice. There's a stigma about sexuality. Apparently Ben Franklin was a swinget in France. I believe that back then....as well as today.....most of the powerful elitists are "swingers" who swap wives and have all types of girlfriends and boyfriends on the side Most powerful people in Western society don't take their marriages OR their religions seriously, it's just ritual and custom for them. I read today where that Meghan Markle who is preparing to marry Prince Harry CHANGED her religion to "Anglican" which is the official religion of England. She didn't convert out of true faith and enlightenment...she converted for political reasons! People swap wives, engage in all types of sexual behaviors, have tons of sexual partners, and claim to be married Christians simply to maintain a public image and keep the masses in line so that they won't get the idea to do the same. Cynique Because the black guys who made Black Panther realized that the African tradition of polygamy contributed absolutely nothing to the telling of their story Oh really? I guess I didn't know that was the reason because I don't hang out with them and have lunch with them every day LIKE YOU DO. So they didn't tell me all of this like they TOLD YOU....lol. 　 As long as irrelevant issues are being raised, the question could also be asked why there was no reference to cannibalism, another ancient African tradition. Has any African ever told you that cannibalism was an ancient African tradition? Or did you hear this from one of your beloved White scientists that you have so much love for and trust in? Throw that in the mix with sex and kill 2 birds with one stone Why don't we throw it in the mix with you and your 72 year old "lazy lover" in bed....lol Perhaps dogging rocks is the only thing that'll get him to "move around".....lol.

Troy I don't discount the impact a network has on 50 million households. But when you compare it with networks that can be seen in 150 million households for free, clearly the broadcast networks have more influence and power. It really disappoints me how so many Black radio and television shows started going ON-LINE back in the late 90s and on up to today. Now they're owned by Youtube and other hosts and providers. Where as when they had their own radio program they could pretty much say whatever they wanted as long as it didn't break community standards. Now essentially Google, Youtube, and Amazon are telling them what they can and can't say and threatening to cut them off if they don't comply. Black people should have kept THEIR OWN television and radio stations that we had in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and early 90s.

Troy There are Black listeners and broadcasters on right wing AM radio. "White people without college education, especially uneducated White men," as you described them, are not the only ones affected by this form of media. One out of 12 Black voters voted for Trump. If race doesn't exist.....how do you know these listeners, broadcasters, and voters were Black? -perhaps they were racist conservatives simply CALLING themselves "Black" in order to make their political views seem more diverse.

Troy science itself does not espouse religion, but individual scientists may in their own personal lives. OK, thanks for making your position on this matter clear ENOUGH FOR ME....lol. I try not to throw around absolute terms like "never." I can tell by your capitalization of the word, that you are placing emphasis on this word. Despite this, I still agree with Cynique on this issue Well, her use of the term NEVER is exactly why I pressed the issue with her. We can argue back and for over the EXTENT religion influences science but when you say it NEVER is espoused to science....that's a pretty bold statement. You said you try not to use the term NEVER...which is wise.....but you still AGREE with her that science never espouses religion. Cynique illustrating how people use items for purposes other than their intended use when something else is not available, as an example of science taking what was available in the case of BC/AD delineation. So you believe that scientists used and still use the religious terms BEFORE CHRIST and YEAR OF OUR LORD simply because they couldn't think of any other terms to use????? Lol......what a reach.

Got a lot in this thread I need to read through but.............. Someone or ones mentioned something about REAL Christians versus hypocrites or something not really being about Jesus and Christianity and used to claim that science not being influenced by religion or that the early academic and science scholars weren't really religious..... I have to say this is a REAL REACH, and a slippery slope. If we're going to start picking and choosing who's a REAL Christian or what they REALLY believed in their hearts- Or who represents the REAL teachings of Jesus or what is TRUE Christianity- Everyone has their own opinion about this and nothing is going to get resolved. Some of you believe the religion of Christianity is about love and forgiveness. I believe it was a political movement designed to unite Europe and had little to do with Jesus. Cynique The bottome line is, you said that science NEVER espouses religion. Both Del and me provided a wealth of information to prove that it DOES from time to time. So you were proven wrong....in more ways than just one. So if your issue with me isn't the fact that I'm right but HOW I present my truth....well here Del is presenting those truths to you in another way and you're STILL arguing with him and refusing to accept it. 　 　 Troy You are arguing individual points that me and Del are making, but where exactly do you stand on the point Cynique has made that science NEVER espouses religion? Do you agree or disagree?

Troy HBO is cable television.....you have to subscribe to it. I'm talking about BROADCAST television that freely comes over the airwaves. The stations that reach the vast majority of people in the United States. NBC, ABC, CBS, ect.... On these television stations you still can't see nudity, certain cuss words are censored out, but you can witness all of the graphic violence you desire.

Cynique Nobody said they were against woman having multiple husbands. I simply made the realistic observation that in today's modern open society, single woman can and do play the field, but when it comes to marriage, they are looking for that one Mr. Right, rather than deluding themselves into thinking that any man worth having would consent to being a member of a team of husbands married to one woman. Get real. Well what's wrong with giving people who want to do it the OPTION to do it? Whether you agree with it or not, step back and let THEM make that decision. 　 Would you want to be one among the multiple husbands of a woman? What's "open and progressive" about this? It is a form of exploitation, by the person who has more than one spouse. Who would voluntarily want to be in the pecking order for a shared mate? You? It's more beneficial to just be a "side piece". There are a WHOLE LOT of men who are "sharing women" in this society right now. What do you call it when a woman is cheating on her husband with another or multiple men? These men are SHARING one woman. And it's the same way with men who cheat on their wives. The women in the affair knows the man is married and is SHARING him with his wife. 　 Single women, like single males, lead the kind of lives they want to so why was the subject of polygamy even raised by the person who raised it? Because the person who raised it (Pioneer...lol) wanted to know why an AFRICAN TRADITION was left out of an African themed movie. Delano Perhaps societies that at more open, fair or equitable or about sexual relationships, would also be more progressive in the main This is true. Sex and sexual relationships are one of the most tender and akward of social subjects and if a society is free enough to allow sexual freedom...then we can be pretty sure there is more freedom in less touchy subjects. 　 People are smart enough to not say this publicly. Lest some uninvolved party judge There is a huge difference between what people say and what they do. The Down Low indeed. Excellent point. And that's exactly what this society forces too many people to do.....lie. It's better to have a free and open society where consenting adults are allowed to do as they please than to FORCE them into an arrangement that clearly doesn't work for most people. You may be confusing a harem with polygamy polyandry or polyamory. She's not confused....lol....she's trying to CAUSE confusion. She doesn't really have a position, just wants to argue. Like I said in another thread, if I'm not here she'll find you or Mel or someone else to start a meaningless argument with. But I'm glad you brought up these points. I should do a thread on these different concepts....... Polygamy Polyandry Polyamory

Lol..... Is this the SAME Joel Osteen who wouldn't let desperate people into his church for sanctuary when Houston was flooding out from the hurricane until he was shamed on social media into doing it? Troy But religions must expand and convert others in order to survive, so by their very nature they must try to influence others. Not only that, but I see most religions as just massive mind control programs. Infact, I'd say they are a major reason why humanity as a whole hasn't advanced more than it has so far because they LIMIT people in thought and action. Based on some scriptures they read in the Bible, most Christians thought that the Earth was flat and because of this people in Europe were afraid to sail too far away for fear of falling off the Earth. Only when they challenged this idea and eventually broke away from it did Europe begin to see a resurgence of prosperity and discovery (that led to slavery and exploitation ofcourse).