Pioneer1

I consider this class "upper middle class." Don't confuse wealth with class. I know, I said this already. Class is also about influence and social standing and I'm telling you that the AfroAmericans I named are FAR more influencial than the Black doctor, lawyer, or architect....professions traditionally considered "middle class". Oprah and Beyonce are not only multi millionaires but are HIGHLY influencial socially and weild a lot of power in the entertainment industry. I know our people aren't where we WANT them to be yet but come on man, don't sell your people TOO short....lol. We DO have Black people in the upper class. 　 　 Marcus Garvey attended college. Malcolm was extremely well read as well as being mentally gifted. There are always exceptions. I know Marcus went to college for a while when he was in London but I haven't read anywhere about him graduating or getting any degrees. A lot of us went to college for a semester or two; but that's different than actually going through the entire process and getting atleast a Bachelor's. Ofcourse both Marcus and Malcolm were EXTREMELY smart individuals as well as charismatic. I didn't say any FOOL or stupid person could have done what they did, you have to have a great deal of intelligence. But INTELLIGENCE isn't the same as FORMAL EDUCATION. Intelligence is innate and natural and if you have it you can learn ANYTHING ANYWHERE, not just inside of a school. Malcolm learned more about human nature and how to motivate people as a pimp and hustler on the streets than he EVER could learn within the confines of Harvard or Yale. It's ACADEMIC or FORMAL education received in traditonal Western institutions that I'm taking issue with because despite the benefits many of our people may receive individually...I believe it has LIMITED our people collectively, especially Black males. Obviously I don't have a college degree but I've helped dozens of people with Bachelors and Master's degrees get out of homelessness, overcome their addictions, and solve other problems based on the knowledge that I was able to get OUTSIDE of the traditional academic institutions. Infact..... Much of my success with them comes from my MISTRUST of those traditional institutions to actually help our people! 　 Dude the VAST majority of Black people were working class or poor and did not graduate from college (this is still true today), of course these were his largest (numerically) supporters. Ok.... I just said that. So are you agreeing with me or what? 　 I guess you never heard of organizations like SNCC. Do you know where the people who participated in the freedom rides or sat in at lunch counters came from? How about all the attorneys who fought the Gov't to pass civil right legislation...? Well first of all SNCC was made up of STUDENTS....so it could be argued that they were as bold as they were because the system hadn't "gotten to" them to neutralize them yet. But besides Stokely Carmichael, who else out of SNCC was effective in the Civil Rights struggle AFTER they graduated from their academic institutions and got their papers? And you're focusing on the legal end of it. On a more practical and social end, it was the dozens and dozens of RIOTS that occured all over America during the 60s that forced the various police departments and other government institutions to take notice and compromise in order to maintain the integrity of the nation. Besides using your logic for education why does anyone have to go to high school? Everything you need to learn to be a plumber or carpenter can be learned in grade school. There are a lot of higher mathematics dealing with tangents and cosigns that you need to learn to be a carpenter and plumber so don't dismiss their intellectual skills. But I DO think academic education beyond say 15 or 16 should be a choice (as it is in many states) and those who choose to engage in other fields of endeavor should be allowed to do so without being shamed or someone made to feel guilty or like failures simply because they don't have a diploma The goal for most people is to make enough money to support and enjoy their lives and the lives of their families. If you can do that WITHOUT formal education....as millions of people were able to do in times past...then outside of personal satisfaction there is no real need for excessive academics. Clearly the "adjunct" professors at City University are lacking a PROPER education, because if they weren't they wouldn't be making poverty wages. If they were properly "educated" they would have the knowledge of how to increase their wages to a satisfactory level. Real education is knowing WHATEVER you need to know to accomplish your goals. If you need to go to an institution to get that knowledge, get it out of a book, or PRAY for it and have it revealed to you....as long as you get it and can use it is what really counts.

You're right, which is why I don't get frustrated by it.....I look at it as just a psychological and social exercise in how to deal with our people on the cyber level. However, it makes one wonder how strong AfroAmericans would be if we as a community would use the same tactics on our political and economic adversaries that we use on eachother.

Perhaps AfroAmericans need to drop out the current political system all together and insist on a brand new system.....quite possibly a "confederation" instead. While SOME (and out of 50 million AfroAmericans even if a "million" of us were millionaires it would still be quite pitiful) of our people are benefiting, it's becoming increasingly clear that this current process is offering no real benefits for the MAJORITY of our people, only more confusion and disappointment. Atleast with the promise of a new system the hope it offers will infuse the masses with a sense of joy and optimism for the future that they haven't felt sense the Civil Rights Era. What do we have to look forward to today? For a Democrat to get elected in 2020 and merely SLOW DOWN the fascism?

Cynique I agree with Troy! You disagree with my position........HOW SHOCKING!!!! Troy There virtually no Black "upper class" people so few in fact it is not even wierh talking about Now come on man..... You could make the argument that there are almost no Black people in the VERY TOP class of United States society of the likes of the Koch brothers, Bushes, or Kennedys and I know class is about more than just money but also power and influence BUT I consider the "upper class" the ENTIRE collection of groups and sub-group above the "middle class". That would include AfroAmerican entertainers like Lebron, Jay Z, and Oprah as well as Black politicians like Eric Holder, Barack Obama, Vernon Jordan, Donna Brazile, ect.... They may not be old money from established families, but they are definately inside the door of the "upper rooms" of this mansion...lol. Man Pioneer you could nit be more wrong. Educated people are the ones most likely to have the information to not just know the about corruption but to also understand the way and how. They are also far more likely to JOIN into that corruption or atleast assist it by growing up and joining the same system that supports and maintains corruption and injustice; which is exactly what the vast majority of educated people do. Don't misunderstand me....I'm not saying that most educated people are corrupt. I'm saying most of them are educated BY the corrupt system for the purposes of working for it and supporting it; so while their intentions may be benevolent they are still supporting corruption and injustice by helping to maintain it. If you know that your government is killing innocent men, women, and children in a particular nation and you choose to be a senator or official in that government, are you not indirectly supporting that killing through your involvement with the government? MLK had a Phd, do you devalue his education? Do you think he would have been as effective with just a high school diploma. I don't devalue his education, I think it's noble and I'm proud that he was able to achieve such. But Malik Shabazz (Malcolm X) arguably did more among the grass roots and Marcus Garvey CERTAINLY did more and made more progress among the grass roots than MLK; and except for Garvey taking a few college courses neither of these men had more than a highschool diploma.....if that. The Right Reverend's education certainly helped him in the political arena and especially with regard to his political connections because he had to deal with people who ONLY respected those who are academically accomplished. But among the masses that he was targeting and trying to organize.....no, his formal education didn't help him nearly as much. His inate intelligence as well as his powerful oratory and social skills were much more valuable and the same for Malik and Marcus. Infact....... Martin's biggest supporters not only practically but even financially were the masses of the uneducated and working class.....while his biggest critics were the his colleagues and other highly educated AfroAmericans who felt he was ruining things for THEM by challenging a corrupt system that benefitted THEM but not the masses.

Troy You're helping me to make my point about many of the professions that currently require you to go to a university before even considering you. If you don't even need calculus or other subjectst that can be learned in highschool to be an Accountant, then why do you NEED to go to college for 5 or 7 years? If you want to be a CPA, or even a Film Director, Social Worker, or Dietician....what's wrong with a paid "apprenticeship" for a couple years for those professions to gain the knowledge and circumvent the debt? As far as liberal arts goes....now THAT'S where the cultural indoctrination starts. You say it's to make you a more well rounded person but actually it's to teach you how to "fit in" upperclass White society. And this is at the heart of the problem, because it creates confusion and division. This was the idealogy of old Europe going back to the feudalist era where people weren't allowed to express THEMSELVES , but were conditioned to conform to a " social ideal" standard where everyone who was considered cultivated and "civilized" had to think, talk, and behave similarly....less they be considered vulgar and uncouth and not taken seriously. .....and you have the same madness being taught in many of the public universities today. Teaching you how to conform and go along with the program, accepting orders from the top without questioning it.....like accepting "official science" and "official history" and rejecting those that the mainstream academia rejects also. Besides stifling true human spirit and forcing everyone to conform to a limited social norm, another problem with this attempt at social uniformity is it's tendency to NEUTER the society and alter it's ability to react aggressively in the face of authoritarian rule. Where as poor and less educated population is more likely to rise up and revolt because they have less to lose and haven't been taught to "be calm"....more educated people tend to be more involved in the system and have more faith in it, so they are less likely to revolt against it no matter how corrupt it gets. They often feel a sense of guilt if they challenge it....much like a person who grows up in a religious home feels a sense of guilt even as an adult by going against what they were taught as a child, even when it makes no sense.

Troy @Troy Do you believe there is proof that "superior" beings who are intelligent, self-sustaining, and more powerful than humans actually in existence?

LSA is more "cliquish" than anything else. You basically have to stay in your own neighborhood and post when you know you have enough "back" so help you defend yourself from those who will attack your statements or try to get your posts flagged. You would think as bad of a reputation "snitching" gets in the Black community today, that would be the last thing people would do on a Black website; but many of the posters on LSA are QUICK to snitch on eachother and get eachother's posts flagged for being offensive.

Troy While I do think being an accoutant is a great profession, I don't think going to an actual university for years should be a prerequisit to be one like one should to be a doctor, lawyer, or engineer. They teach calculus in highschool and much of the skills needed to be an accountant that AREN'T learned in highschool can certainly be learned on the job. I believe Delano said he was an accountant so I'm sure he can correct me if I'm wrong but exactly what MUST a person actually go to a university learn about accounting that can't be learned in a couple years on the job? I think what you have against formal education are the students who send a ton of money and take out large loans for a degree with minimal practical utility. Well that, but I also don't like the "cultural indoctrination" that I see going on in many of the universities that I've visited. In many of the universities today AfroAmerican culture is marginalized and in many if not most cases non-existent. Feminism and homosexuality is not just allowed but actively promoted. And young men are being conditioned to believe that basic masculine traits like aggressiveness and chasing after females is somehow a defect that must be corrected. Man forget those days -- unless there is a disaster they are never coming back. Technology has eliminated the need for so many people to labor on farms and factories. Besides you seem to be glorifying the back breaking life shortening labor required. I'd take on a student loan to avoid that drudgery any day of the week. Not only will they come back, they are ALREADY back....just not in the United States, but in China and India and other nations where these mentally simple but well paying jobs are now building a huge middle class in those nations like they used to in ours. Even if you want to believe that technology has all but eliminated the need for human labor in manufacturing, what about skilled trades like carpentry and plumbing? You're going to always need plumbers, carpenters, and just basic repair men; yet these jobs aren't being promoted despite the fact that they actually pay more than most entry level professional careers. Plumbers and electricians make anywhere from $60,000 to $75,000 a year and don't have all of the debt (from student loans atleast) to show for it. 　 Hundreds of Thousands?! Stop making stuff up. Anecdotally, I've attended three universities for a total of 8 years. I've sent kids to two different universities for 8 years and have worked in one for 5. I have never met a single professor in all of these years who could not live on their own and while supplementing their income working a minimum wage job. Did you just make these stats up? That is a question @Pioneer1 I'd really like to know where you got this from. Well, since you're going to call me on it.....actually I WAS being a bit hyperbolic....lol. But didn't YOU allude to this idea by the very THEME of this thread being that assistant professors who aren't making enough money to raise themselves out of poverty? Can't say that I know a lot of professors who must suppliment their income but I DO know plenty of graduates with professional degrees who do!

Chev Lol....are you as long-winded in real life as you are on the internet? I can just see your husband coming in from a long day at work trying to get some rest while you're sitting up in bed for 2 hours telling him about something that happened earlier that he's too tired to even care about but loves you too much to tell you so, LOL. But what you described is a great example of "women's intuition". Premonitions females usually get about other family members. I've seen too many examples of this to ever dismiss it. Delano Once you prove God exists that's STILL not the end; because now you have to prove God's relevance to your life and whether or not miracles will be performed when you need them. Now that you know God exists, will God: -cure your illness? -get you out of poverty? -get you out of jail? -bring a good mate into your life? There are still plenty of things to exercise your hope and faith with once you DO have confirmation of the existence of God.

Delano To answer your question, I'm not sure.

Cynique Just who, beside Farrakhan, Neely Fuller, Malcolm X and - Booker T. Washington, would you point to as black males who deserve praise? For starters...... Jordan Peele the movie director. Dr. Wesley Muhammad a researcher. Dr. Bennet Omalu the doctor who shed the light on NFL concussions Dr. Tyron Hayes a scientist and researcher for of UC Berkeley These are just a few Black men who deserve to be honored for their valuable contributions to society. Chev I find it very strange and suspicious that the Chicago police departement was SO SURE of Jussie's guilt and were ready to throw the book at him UNTIL the Feds decided to get involve and go through their files to determine how they arrived at their conclusions. .....then all of a suddent Cook County decides to drop the charges. Seems to me they have something to hide; or atleast something they certainly didn't want the feds to see.

I think one of the biggest challenges of proving the existence of God isn't the proof itself, so much as being able to SHARE that proof with others. In other words...... If I pray for miracles in my life and God or a some other divine Being presents Themselves before me and communicates with me and grants me those miracles....that IS proof! It's more than just evidence, it's absolute proof! However, if I'm talking to a friend or co-worker how do I prove TO THEM that this happened?

Well, now they are just PREDICTIONS. We have to wait and see and if I'm still alive....The Supreme Being permitting....after those time frames have passed, then perhaps I'll be THOROUGHLY impressed, lol.

Chev Exactly. It's just a part of a wider divide and conquer strategy to FURTHER destabilize the AfroAmerican community. At the same time the media is pushing the achievements of AfroAmerican women (which they SHOULD have been doing.....my only question is "why now??")...these same media outlets are digging up old stories and using documentaries to portray AfroAmerican men as sexual predators and criminals. But you know what? I not only blame AfroAmericans in part for this attempt but I blame AfroAmerican men in particular because of the responsibility and role we share in ENABLING these tactics. If AfroAmerican men who actually have a media platform would spend more time promoting the achievements of AfroAmerican girls and women....without necessarily calling attention to the fact that they are female but just focusing on their achievements period....and less time promoting sports and gossip, that would snatched the rug out from under any attempt by the racists in the media to use these divide and conquere tactics. This is one of the reasons I like this site and promote it from time to time. Troy promotes just as many if not more AfroAmerican female up and coming authors than males, helping sisters who would otherwise be unknown achieve untold success. Usually when a woman cheats or ends up being seduced by a another man besides her husband, it's usually less about what that man she's cheating with is doing for her and more about what her husband IS NOT doing for her or is NO LONGER doing for her. Usually if he's taking care of business (sexually, financially, emotionally, etc...) she will have no desire to stray away from and leave him for another. And it's the same with the macrocosm of the AfroAmerican community. If AfroAmericans as a whole spent more time praising eachother instead of trying to tear down eachother.....we wouldn't be so flattered when someone else decides to pay us a compliment.

Delano Thanks at almost sounds like a compliment. I am describing events and people around you and your internal state over the next few days. Lol, it SHOULD be taken as a compliment. I'm somewhat impressed at your level of accuracy.

As an educator you're probably going to find this statement not only ridiculous but even outrageous but...... I think this society puts TOO MUCH value on...I won't say "education"....but on formal academics for the population as a whole. Coming from the Industrial Midwest and still remembering as a child how people with just a highschool education in Michigan had a much higher standard of living than most of the highly educated of Boston or New York....I recognize that it's JOBS and BUSINESS OPPORTUNITIES that weigh the most in improving a person's financial life and well being, not simply forcing them to get more degrees. Let's not put the cart before the horse; the GOAL for most people should be to make a good living with high wages and benefits in order to support you and your family....not simply go to school for decades and cram as much useless knowledge in your head as you possibly can. This is accomplished through good paying jobs and easily established small businesses, not earning degrees. If your goal in life is to be a docor, laywer, or aerospace engineer......ABSOLUTELY take your butt to school and get as much education as you can cram into your brain and CONTINUE to further your education as long as you practice your career. But if your goal is to have a nice home and large family with plenty of food, entertainment, and great healthcare.....academic education alone won't get you there. There are hundreds of thousands of people with degrees who are working as professors and research assistants PART TIME and must suppliment their income with jobs as Starbucks and Target just to survive and still can't afford to live on their own. Unlike the past where manufacturing and agriculture were the standard industries that allowed each man to make a good living for himself and his family without excessive education, tuition, and student loan debt.......today's economy is being taylored to produce a very educated class of slaves who will work their ass off for nothing.

((three months later)) Well shit....that was a pretty short conversation, lol.

Cynique Well first of all, it's not about their being a LACK of success among Black men that bothers me about this. Ofcourse I'd like Black men to do much better, but as far as a comparison over wealth and success between Black men and Black women.... I'm not 100% sure but if you take Oprah out of the picture their MAY bere more successful Black men just in professional sports like the NBA and NFL ALONE than almost all of the other Black women in the entertainment industry COMBINED. ....and I won't even start to include the tens or maybe hundreds of thousands of OTHER successful Black men in the sports, music, and other parts of the entertainment industry. .....not to mention Black men OUTSIDE of the entertainment industry in the realms of education, finance, law, and other more professional careers. So it's not a matter of jealousy or anger at our sisters "allegedly" doing better. I personally think both sexes are doing about the same....in different arenas.....but BOTH should do much better. It's about why the White media is hyping up Black women so much and ignoring Black men. What's strange about it? Why didn't these same media outlets like USA Today and CNN praise Black women in the past? Again, WHY NOW? It's clear they're trying to divide the sexes in the Black community and encourage Black women to leave Black men behind for men of other races....preferably White men. That's what most of the feminism being pushed into the Black community is about. It's not about empowering women to be equal; it's about encouraging Black women to LEAVE Black men behind. They know full well that most Black women are not lesbian so if they leave Black men who are they going to get with....Japanese or Mexican men? Hell no. They have little choice BUT to choose the next in line......White men....given their power and wealth in this society.

Now really..... Does it take a White man to TELL us this before we are willing to believe it? I mean, for decades and centuries Black people who didn't go to school could sit up in rocking chairs or even on logs and tell us about how they know God and what God has done for them in their lives from personal experience and how silly it is for someone to claim that God doesn't exist......and many of us don't take them seriously. But all it takes is some White dude in glasses and a white lab coat or a title behind his name to come on and make a statmenet and now ALL OF A SUDDEN it has merit. It has credit. Ofcourse atheism isn't consistent with the scientific method because after your hypothesis you have to repeatedly experiment and observe the results in order to PROVE your position of non-existence.....and no one has been able to do this EVER. The only somewhat "logical" conclusion someone who has experimented and yielded no results could come to would be AGNOSTICISM or the admission that you simply don't know. But ATHEISM is a pretty firm declaration of non-existence and NO ONE has proven this. ((probably because you can't "prove" a lie...lol)) I've maintained for years and I've even said on this site that most of the people in these universities who CLAIM to be atheist.....really are not. Most of them not only believe actually do believe in Higher powers but pretend that they don't. They are just saying it to DECEIVE their students and confuse them; especially students of color.

Del Pioneer 39 - 42 but you mayeither stop working Dec 9 or that's your last check . Less than 42 thousand??????????? But I find your statement that I might "stop WORKING by Dec 9 or it will be my last check" VERY interesting. Infact, I find it quite encouraging given a few of my goals! Even what you said about May is very significant for me given those goals. Thanks for the response.

Black women's groups exercising new political power going into 2020 presidential campaign https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2019/03/10/black-womens-groups-leverage-their-clout-2020-elections/3101381002/ She Thrives Women from different generations, occupations and regions. These 10 women are shaping their communities and, in their own way, altering life for everyone in 21st century America. Theirs are stories that deserve to be told. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/she-thrives Has anyone else noticed that the mainstream media seems to be hyping up Black women in specific.....as opposed to Black people as a whole.....for their achievements lately? They've even credited the "Black women's vote"....as opposed to the Black vote in general.....for wining certain local elections. Not that our sisters DON'T deserve the credit and the attention they're getting,, because they certainly do. Infact it's long over due. But I find it very strange and even suspicious that the media has all of a sudden "discovered" them and what they've contributed to society; and more telling....why these same media sources seem to be purposely and quite blatantly leaving Black men OUT of the picture.

Chev I'm learning a lot from this thread. Keep posting more knowledge.

I believe both Troy and myself asked you specific questions.

So rather than actually answering the question....(or admitting you don't know of any)....you resort to making baseless assertions. Why am I not surprised? If my position is "faulty" then instead of merely making the claim and moving on, PROVE it with a list of Black nations with more functional societies than China.

Show me an African, Caribbean or otherwise majority Black nation that is doing BETTER than the "socially-engineered dysfunctional China" and I'll consider THEIR family planning and reproductive practices in comparison. Cynique You can save all that 'splainin for someone dumb enough to believe it, lol. Like many women who grow up in this society, you clearly like powerful White men and admire them and you're seeking to justify it. The "kindness" part is just the icing on the cake or the cherry on top of the sundae. And when you say "kind" what you really mean is kind to YOU. You don't give a damn how they treat other Black people and especially Black men with their power. Just keep in mind that some of those "lucky" Black men and women you speak are victimized BY those same powerful White men whom you appreciate.