Pioneer1

Cynique So I didn't reverse myself and agree with you. You only agree with me when you DON'T consciously realize it...lol. Once it has been brought to your attention (usually by me) then you'll go out of your way to CHANGE your position and disagree. 　 　 I don't think you folks know that Pioneer came and went on this board. He showed up one day and stayed around for a while, and then left. Later after a long hiatus, he suddenly reappeared. Even during his first "term", he and i constantly argued. When he came back, there was truce but we gradually began to clash again. Lol.... For a person who could "care less" about my presence you sure do keep up with MY comings and goings. There was no "truce" between us because I never took you serious enough to fight with. People like you don't make formidable opponents because you don't have any solid positions nor do you have any serious diagreements; you just like to push buttons and enjoy the emotions it brings out of people. The only reason you stopped squabbling with me was because you had your hands full with Sara. As soon as she was gone.....you turned your flashing eyes back towards me and started licking your fangs, lol. If what he provokes in me can be described as an emotion (?), irritation would be what comes to mind because so much of what he says strikes me as absurd, or inaccurate, or dogmatic. And this is compounded by how he thinks he's never wrong! At some point, this has become a knee-jerk reaction because as soon as he posts something, i know i'm going to disagree with it, - and I usually do. And, of course, all of this is exacerbated by my argumentive personality. I've come to the conclusion that he and i are like oil and water; we just don't mix. As Mel previously noted, some people have a natural aversion to each other. Maybe he and i had a contentious relationship in another life. Who knows? Who cares? YOU care.....lol. Which is why I've stated CLEARLY and consistently through out this thread that I suspect your problem is: 1. You see my presence as a threat to your status here. 2. You have a degree of attraction towards me and enjoy the attention you get from our quarrels. I stand by that assessment until it is proven otherwise Yes, we may be like oil and water......but I'm the oil because I always come out on top, lol.

Troy You said: Pioneer there are always restrictions and consequences, these issues do not take away from our freedom. But you also said: No one is free to do anything they what, if they expect to be able to engage with anyone else. Doesn't the second statement cancel out the first? Now a child may be prevented from skydiving, because a parent or the law may not permit it. That child is less free than the adult. I'm not sure there is actually any such thing as "less free"; it's like being "less married"...lol. Either you're free or you're not. But you mentioned something I found interesting...... Can any society really be "free" if children are under the control of their parents? I would think that children would have to be released from control of their parents, there couldn't be any prisons or jails, and even mental patients would have to be released in order for a society to really call itself "free" for all people. Which is why I said, I don't think there really IS a "free" society in this world. Some are less restricted than others, but all of them have restrictions to a certain degree. Zaji And everything this culture is, for me, is the opposite of how I envision/imagine authentic freedom. It was designed that way by social engineers. This society was designed to get the maximum amount of labor from people for corporate use. That's why the NUCLEAR FAMILY is pushed in this society instead of the traditonal extended families of African society which would provide more economic support during tough times. It's also why cigarettes and alcohol are promoted. It gets you addicted to the point you're FORCED to work in order to feed your addiction. Del Leave the United States Wouldn't it be better if she stayed and tried to IMPROVE things rather than just pack up and leave? Black people do too much bouncing and moving around. Running from one city to the next, one village to the next, one country to the next looking to see which White man is going to treat us better.....lol. How about we do what Booker T. Washington said and cast our buckets down where we are and start building OUR ideal society right where we happen to be standing.

Freedom to me means that people can do whatever they want, but they have to suffer the consequences. That still wouldn't be freedom Freedom means NO RESTRICTION No society is a free society where negative consequences exist for certain actions because the very THOUGHT of facing those consequences is enough to restrict them. They may be self-restricted....but still restricted none the less.

Troy However the combination of these things is not enough to accurately and consistently describe the categories we use to describe each race. On some level this should be somewhat obvious as we can't look at someone and accurately describe the racial bucket they belong in. It's not that hard when you take into account that much of humanity is MIXED. Like I said, there are DEFINATE RACES...the only problem is most Black people have been MIS-EDUCATED on the actual races and that's what's confusing them about who belongs to what. You're not going to sit up there and tell me these two people are part of the same genetic stock or "race": These may be racial extremes, but they are CLEARLY DIFFERENT and if you get rid of the concept of "race" then how would you classify them or identify them? 　 This is why the scientific community has abandoned the of notion of a genetic basis for race, and why I have too. Who is the "scientific community"? Are you telling me that because a group of nerdy White men sitting around in white coats and glasses making half of their decisions over cocktails while half drunk......we should follow THEM???? Western science is constantly changing based on INTERESTS. First race DIDN'T exists.....then it DID.....now it DOESN'T anymore. Race EXISTS when it serves the interests of the money makers. And when it no longer serves the interests of the money makers they take it away. 15 years later when they need the concept of race again they RE-INVENT IT, and you're sitting there scratching your head trying to figure it out....lol. Like I said in the other thread, Black people need to use their OWN experiences and observations to come to their OWN conclusions. 　 You may have more in common with Kim Kardashian genetically than you do with me. First you tell me that I shouldn't be insulted.... THEN you turn around and claim me and some "big legged" White woman who sleeps with Kanye West have a lot in common....lol. Man, how can I figure you out????

Man, I had to re-do this post because I saw so many mistakes........ 　 Troy Experiences and observations are what we call anecdotes and you have a long history of using this method to argue. What you know using the method can be utterly wrong. Is this how you know there is a genetic basis for race? The same method of observation that you are attempting to trivalize is actually what most scientists use in their experiments to GAIN THEIR KNOWLEDGE....and give it to you. If a person's mind is sound, they don't abuse alcohol/drugs, and aren't prone to hallucinations or delusions...how can what they witness or experience be "wrong"? And to answer your question, ofcourse. With my sense of sight I can clearly see the physical features between human beings that allow them to be classified into different races and sexes. 　 　 How can you not believe something you don't know? Because I'm using MY definition of "knowledge". Which is information that has been VERIFIED by either personal experience or personal observation. And just like there are many things I don't KNOW but I believe based on evidence, there are many things that I don't know OR BELIEVE because of a lack of evidence. An example of how you can not believe something you don't know is this...... If I'm sitting in a room with no window but with a tin roof, and you come in the room and tell me it's hailing outside. If I don't hear any hail hitting the roof, I'm not going to believe you. I DON'T KNOW that it's hailing, meaning.... I haven't been outside to experience the hail. I don't have a window to see out of and observe the hail. So I don't KNOW it's hailing. Now add to that the fact that I didn't hear it hitting the tin roof....no evidence either. So I don't know it NOR do I believe it. Again you can't know anything based upon your experiences. Unless you are suggesting that you've been conducting experiment in lab and have had others have replicated your findings. Do you have to do experiment in a laboratory to KNOW that you have no hair on the top of your head? Do you have to do experiments in a laboratory to KNOW that your skin is brown? Do you have to do experiments in a laboratory to know that women typically have higher pitched voices than men? Nah brother, you don't need a laboratory and do extensive research to verify these facts. Just your basic observation skills are enough to confirm them. simply read, watch documentaries, consume information on the web and a variety of other places to draw conclusions -- I HAVE to rely others. And this is part of the problem of why so many Black people remain in the condition we are in. We rely too much on the information OTHERS are giving us instead of getting the information we need OURSELVES. Is there any wonder why Black people are disproportionately affected with diabetes, certain forms of cancers, HIV, and other diseases.....when they rely on OTHERS to give them information and treat them instead of doing their own research to treat themselves???? We don't HAVE TO rely on others for most of the information we get...we just CHOOSE TO out of laziness and lack of confidence in our own abilities.

but I also said from the get-go that knowledge is not necessarily synonymous with comprehension. Do you agree with that? Yes. But you also said that knowledge was information and facts. Your argument was pretty much that knowledge = facts/information. My argument was that knowledge = facts + understanding

Troy Still you don't recognize the fact that there is no genetic basis for the racial categories you hold so dearly, which leads to faulty conclusions. Again I think Zaji articulated the spirit of what you believe. Am I right or wrong? I agree with Zaji that while the concept of race itself is a social construct that was invented by White people, we must also acknowledge that the melanin in our skins is a real tangible fact and can't be ignored or dismissed as simply a social construct. Melanin is in the genes. Our Black to tan skin....it's genetically based and not simply a social construct. Infact, so is the structure of our hair, the shape of our mouths and noses, and also our bone density.....these aren't simply social constructs but in our very genes. In other words........... Race is just a way of categorizing people Your race is simply a category that someone constructed to put you in to classify you. However the PHYSICAL FEATURES that are used to define those categories are NOT social but GENETIC. What little we do have is largely concerned with mimicking what white media do. Which is largely concerned with making as much money as possible -- which has never served Black people, or the Afro American, as a whole. I think you're absolutely right. Part of educating ourselves and re-defining ourselves is SETTING OUR OWN VALUES instead of adopting them from others. I would say we should teach our children that money isn't an "end" in and of itself but a means TO more valuable "ends" such as: Family Great health Food Proper education Land These things are more valuable than money.

Troy My thinking isn't inconsistent. It's quite reliable, I just have my OWN way of accepting, processing, and categorizing information instead of the way typically taught in Western academia. When information is presented to me I classify it as: 1. Information I KNOW to be true based on experience or observation. 2. Information I don't actually know but just BELIEVE based on the evidence. 3. Information that I don't know nor have enough information to have an opinion on 4. Information that I don't actually know and DON'T BELIEVE based on the evidence. 5. Information that I KNOW NOT to be true based on experience or observation When you ask me about electrons and whether the Earth is round or flat, questions like this fall into the 2nd category because I'm not in a position to verify the information I'm given on these subjects but they make logical sense to me based on the evidence. But that's the best I can give you. How can I or anyone else who haven't actually seen the planet with their own eyes from a distance sit up and claim they KNOW what shape the Earth is? All you're going by is what other's TELL you.....and you believe them. It doesn't mean they're wrong, it's just a more accurate way of relating information. For me, knowledge has to be POSTERIORI.....not simply priori.

Troy I've never put my had on a woman Sho'nuff ??? Well how did you end up with children?

But that is not the point of freedom; is it? The point of freedom? Different people desire what they think is freedom for as many different reasons. Some want the right to express their creativity. Others want the right to live a lewd and lascivious life without moral confines. Others want the right to harm people. And others just want to be left alone and not told what to do.

Saying there shouldn't be a Black history month is like saying there shouldn't be any prisons. Ofcourse if people did what they were SUPPOSED to do then there WOULDN'T be a need for them....lol.

You can acknowledge someone's opinion and accept their right to have one, and at the same time, disagree with it. The problem is when you disagree with that opinion coming from someone, but then turn around and AGREE with the very same opinion when it's coming from someone else! That's not simply a problem. That's injustice. That's what you do....best....lol.

Is there really any such thing as "freedom" in this world? Freedom means unrestricted, being able to do and say whatever you want. I don't know of any society on the planet where any human being can do this. In every nation, in every society, in every home -there are rules and restrictions governing behavior and if those rules are broken and if those restrictions are violated....there is usually some sort of penalty.

Zaji I agree with you that Europeans came up with different racial classification for deceptive purposes. To keep their victims confused and divided. But I also agree with you that the differences between with heavily melanated skin and those who are melanine deficient are very REAL, and you can see that reality in just the behavior alone. To me....race is a reality based in biology and genetics, but I don't go with the ever-changing Caucasian definition of race and instead define and classify race using MY OWN terms that are in my opinion are closer to reality. For example, instead of saying: Black and White....I use terms like African and Caucasian. I also use terms like Afro-American, which encompasses ALL of the various shades of our people through out the Americas who are of African ancestry.....instead of using the term "Black" which really can only describe a few. Troy I grew up in segregated East Harlem where you where either Black or Puerto Rican. I did not know any white people my age until I got to Tech. Actually, some of the Puerto Ricans you grew up around WERE WHITE; they just weren't considered so by United States standards. But many WHITE PUERTO RICANS carry the same racist anti-Black attitude of their anglo counterparts. Haitians are also Latinos, and look how the lighter skinned Latinos treat them. you wrote is probably better articulates what @Pioneer1 has been trying to communicate regarding race. Pioneer does what Zaji wrote reflect what you believe. Now I'm insulted......lol. What do you mean "trying" to communicate????? I've been telling you for months that race my infact be a social construct but it's also rooted in genetic and biological fact because of skin color as well as other physical feature. NOW all of a sudden you "get it"?? Leonce I agree with you that we need to start teaching OURSELVES who we are instead of waiting on the "majority" White people to teach and tell us who we are. Maulana Karenga said that one of the greatest powers in the world is the ability to define reality and CAUSE OTHERS to accept it! That's exactly what happens when we refuse to educate ourselves and allow others to educate us, basically given them power. . I like how you use the term "AfroAmerican". If you read my posts, I usually refer to our people here in the Americas (North, South, Carribean) as AFRO-Americans instead of just "Black people". .....because I see us as not just a race, but an ETHNIC GROUP with a very unique culture. Cynique So black strategy should be - what? Like Zaji and Leonce said.....START DEFINING OURSELVES. Specifically through properly educating our children so that they will grow up with a different mindset instead of the one that the slave-master PUT in the minds of previous generations. All A major part of the problem with racial definitions is the fact that people are too often confusing RACE with ETHNICITY and even NATIONALITY. These are 3 distinct categories that often overlap eachother and adds to the confusion that already exists. I invite you all to review a thread I made the previous year where I broke down the differences between RACE, NATIONALITY, AND ETHNICITY: https://aalbc.com/tc/topic/4405-race-ethnicity-nationality101/

Troy There's a lot to chew on in this thread. Let me check it out a little more carefully when I have more time, but I will say this much....... It's funny to see people of color sitting around attempting to decided whether or not they will accept a concept that not only THEY didn't even invent and was invented by White people and used to enslave and exploit them, but a concept that they can do little about removing whether they accept it or not. It's like a bunch of prisoners sitting around in their cell having philosophy sessions about whether or not the concept of prisons, wardens, and inmates really exist. They can sit around and ponder all day long but at the end of the day the the prison is real, they are in it, and they have little power to change this because they didn't invent the system and don't know how to get themselves out. In other words........ IT DOESN'T MATTER whether or not BLACK PEOPLE accept the existence of race or not....WHITE SUPREMACISTS DO. THEY SEE different races. THEY SEE themselves as "White" and superior and people of color as a different race and inferior. And until YOU get more power than THEM....you would be wise to atleast familiarize yourself with the concept of different races whether you really accept it or not.

Man, you just started a thread with 3 or 4 separate topics.....lol. But I don't think you CAN make "sense" of certain things in your life I think you can make LOGIC of them, meaning....you can explain WHY they happened. But as far as seeing some "thread" of commonality that runs through every single event or attempting to put everything together that happens in your life as if they're a piece to a giant puzzle....I don't think you can do that. I've met people who claim that EVERYTHING happens for a reason, but I believe some things are just plain random.

Troy Unlike disagreeing with you or Del, Cynique actually GOES OUT OF HER WAY to disagree with me. It has nothing to do with my actual positions and content of my posts. As I've said before, even if she AGREES with a particular position.....once I agree with it she'll turn around and change her mind, lol. When I see the success of forums like Lipstick Alley, it gives me hope for the future. One of the reasons Lipstick Alley is "successful" is because it is a heavily moderated website aimed specifially at Black WOMEN and not men. I've noticed that women in general seem to flock to heavily moderated websites, especially where most of the moderators are women. I'm not sure if women love it because it gives them a sense of security, but most men hate it because of it's restrictive nature. Lipstick Alley is also "pro gay".....and I'm sure they're getting a lot of funding from special interest groups to stay alfloat as well as a lot of advertizing . Also I've noticed that it seems to be more gossipy and less academic or literature oriented.....and a lot of negroes LOVE that, lol. Cynique You further accuse me of using bullying tactics and giving Troy ultimatums. Puleeze. Eager to gain Troy's approval, squirming in the clutches of your anxiety, you pressure him to take sides. Fortunately he didn't, because it makes him no difference. Nobody is bug-eyed and frothing at the mouth about this situation but YOU Lol..... If I were you I wouldn't read TOO MUCH into my asking Troy to respond. I simply asked for Troy's responses because I...and I'm sure others....was curious to see what was on his mind when reading this exchange where his name was frequently being brought up.....as I would be. When I saw that he had posted on a couple other threads then I realized he couldn't have missed this one. Troy says you're witty, but I think you just let your imagination RUN AWAY from time to time. Why don't you give one of us the phone number of your 72 year old "stud muffin" so we can call him and tell him to come get his girl when you're on here acting a straight up FOOL....lol.

Troy I believe both. But that belief is "weak"....meaning I don't give full confidence to it because those conclusions along with the evidence that supports them were PRESENTED to me by Western science. Niether I nor anyone I personally know has verified the existence of them with personal observation. I think I know why you asked me those questions..... To establish a basis of belief as if to say, if I believe in THAT aspect of Western science then why wouldn't I believe in the current racial claims of Western science. And if that WAS your reason, the answers are simple: 1. Unlike galaxies and electrons that I haven't seen yet to either accept or reject, I actually SEE various races so I KNOW they exist....despite what SOME scientists claim. 2. Unlike the various racial theories where some claim race exists and others claim race doesn't....no one that I know of is running around claiming that electrons and galaxies DON'T exist. So I have little reason NOT to believe that the scientists are right on their existence. Black people should get into a habit of verifying things for THEMSELVES instead of relying on White people....scientists or non-scientists....to do all of the work and hands on research. How many Black archeologists are actually digging in the grounds of Africa or South America finding things? Too many Black people JUST go to school, sit up in the class, and let those who REALLY KNOW tell them what they should know instead of verifying it for themselves so that they can KNOW what they believe.

Troy sure white people absolutely have something to do with it. We don't green light big budget films, give 7-figure advances, or select academy award winners. White folks determine who is successful, and as a result define what is valuable and noteworthy. Problems arise from the inevitable mismatch between what white folks validate and what Black folks think should be validated. Excellently stated. And I agree. I think we have different values and a different value system all together which leads to a lot of social conflict in everyday American life between Blacks and Whites. Black Americans aren't a monolith but I do believe that...like you said....we have our own ideas of what should be validated.

Cynique i felt so exhilarated and close to nature standing alone in the dark, Hold on....wait a minute! Standing alone???? Where was that 72 year old stallion you claim rocks your world? Why did he leave you all ALONE in the dark to get "exhilarated".....lol.

Xeon I'm very open minded Yeah, it's TOO open....and that's part of the problem. Your mind is open to whatever claims WHITE scientists make and you're easily influenced by whatever they publish as fact. The problem is, the SAME people (Western scientific body) who defined race in the first place.....now say it's does not exist. And instead of questioning how they arrived at their conclusions you just go along with it. Which means you don't have a mind of your OWN to do your OWN research and come up with your OWN findings.....all you can do is quote theirs like an elementary school child seeking a sticker to put on his forehead. You act as if the sources you mentioned had their information handed down to them from the heavens. Pathetic......

Xeon example, here in SoCal, brown, red and blond ales used to be common and readily available (my favorite). But now, with the unprecedented explosion in microbreweries -you will find this particular ale almost non-existent in the seemingly countless number of microbreweries! The rage now is IPA's and fusion beers. 　 Hmmmmm...... I always wondered whether you were Black or not. The above statement just answered my question......lol. Troy Of course my personal observations are just anecdotes, but based upon my observations more women are going natural today than 20 years ago. I'd admit this does from the images we see in the media. But again we don't control this images... There's a difference between "natural" and "unrelaxed". What I see a lot of among our people today is UNRELAXED hair. Hair that hasn't been chemically altered to be straight or wavy, but still braided up and twisted up so that it's STRUCTURE is no longer kinky or nappy. For example: 　 This picture of Gloria Hendry from the 70s is an example of a Black woman wearing her hair NATURAL. But THIS is what most Black people are calling "natural" today. Unlike the 70s where Black women actually went NATURAL, wearing their hair either short and neat or long and bushy but still KINKY/NAPPY.....today most Black women are still going for the "straight look" but instead of putting chemicals in their hair they're doing it with braids, twists, and dreads. None of which are actually "natural".

Cynique Your meltdown has answered my question. i always disagree with you because it's difficult to agree with a lunatic. Let me get this straight...... YOU are the one calling for a psychiatrist to help you figure yourself out.... YOU are the one who claimed to be tired and burnt out and ready to give up.... But you're accusing OTHER people of having meltdowns?????? LMAO Troy Lol..... Man you KNOW you done seen this thread !!!! Probably read it 5 or 6 times by now. Say something.....shit....lol. You know folks are curious to know what your thinking.

Cynique I asked you, despite hearing about their "attitude" towards Black Americans, what has an African actually done to YOU PERSONALLY to earn your disdain, dislike, and you calling them "interlopers"???? Your response? "Do people have to go into detail as to why they dislike Donald Trump, who has personally never done anything to them? I said i was prejudiced against Africans, implying that i don't like the effect of their collective presence in this country. And i repeat:i owe you no further explanation in spite your attempt to emulate the incarnation of a wrathful African god. So take your "demands" and stick 'em up your flared nostrils. " I'll take that as YOUR way of saying they actually did NOTHING to you, lol.

AUDIENCE That was a pretty emotional post....lol. Sharp and insulting. I'm sure some people are saying, she sho' told HIM. But to those following this thread I'd ask you not to pay too much attention to her insults or how well she was able to articulate them and make them seem snappy. I'd ask you to FOCUS. ************FOCUS***************** Focus on what? Focus.....not on her insults or how well she can articulate them but on the actual SUBJECT of the thread and the reason she started it in the first place. Dig it..... She actually STARTS A THREAD asking...pretending to joke about it but we all know she is actually being a bit serious...why she can't ever seem to agree with me on most topics. After a few posts I finally respond with basically 2 solid answers: 1. Because of my strong opinion and frequency of posting she either consciously or subconsciously considers me a threat to her status here. 2. She actually has a slight attraction towards me which is even more frustrating and is probably why she continues to respond to my posts even though she PRETENDS to disagree with them. Now forget all of her witty responses and insults and **FOCUS** on what I said....because it's either true or false. Despite all of her insults and attempts to distract people from the actual subject of the thread she started, what I said about Cynique is either TRUE or it's NOT TRUE. Let's see.......... She said: And as far my giving him a choice between me and you, i was serious. But in the very same paragraph above she said: why would i consider a nutcase like you a threat? Certainly there's nothing you can do to me. You can post from now until kingdom come and i would not be affected. Your presence here doesn't prevent me from saying or doing anything i choose; you do not inhibit, intimidate or appeal to me in any way, except in your twisted imagination. So if my presence posed no threat to her, why is she complaining about being "burnt out" and wanting to just leave and hand the forum over to me? That's what you say to or about someone you feel is taking all the limelight or hogging the attention. It's REALLY a bullying technique that is usually used as a last resort by women. I've seen it being used by some women in my personal life as well as some women in my family....usually the domineering types. They fight and cuss and insult to get their way but when it no longer works and someone stands up and challenges them....the last resort is to threaten to leave the home or leave the relationship. Cynique is attempting the same thing. My original claim was that she sees my presence as a THREAT.....and her every post proves it including her threatening to just give up and hand the title over to me....lol. As for my second claim of her having a degree of attraction which further adds to her frustration..... I admit I have no solid proof of this and it could be mere speculation, but I've had enough social interactions both online and offline to know a little bit of how someone really feels about me. We all know the rules of the internet; when you really don't like someone you IGNORE them. You don't constantly have exchanges with them for months and months on end. Her emotions toward me are obviously strong one way or the other. Cynique You really need to stop...lol. Like your favorite singer Prince said, you need to act your age....not your shoe size. If I REALLY THOUGHT you were going to leave because of me....I would bow out and not put Troy in the position of having to ask me to leave or ban me just to keep a well known combative poster who no one but him seems to get along with from leaving instead....lol. But I don't believe YOU want to leave nor do I believe you want ME to leave. Well....part of you probably does. But the other part feeds off the negative energy you generate by arguing with me and THAT part wants me to stay. But I'll tell you this much...... That little "if you don't give me what I want I'll run away" bullying technique may work with some women like Sara or Kola, but now your dealing with a MAN. And if you DON'T need a psychiatrist right now, keep fucking with me and you WILL....lol.