Pioneer1

I don't say this much but, we need to stop using "racism" as an excuse to explain away every act of negativity experienced by Black people from outside. Sometimes the negativity is justified and at other times even when it's NOT justified it has little to nothing to do with the actual race of the victim. 　 Sara I'm glad you agree. We need to maintain our own standards of beauty.....but we do need standards. BTW, I don't think she's funny either. I think she's obnoxious. I try not to be sexist and pick on her behavior when a lot of male comics act the same way but what really offends me is how she likes to cloak herself in some sort of "Black womanhood" cape as if how she looks and acts is the avatar for Black American femininity. Cynique It's too bad that the double standard comes into play here. Because loud burly black men are not subjected to as much scrutiny or criticism as bodacious black women, and while black women are expected to be demure ladies, nobody calls out black dudes for not being more gentlemanly. There is indeed a double standard, but it's not unwarranted. Ofcourse loud burly men aren't scrutinized because being loud and aggressive are masculine traits. In a more natural setting (and some urban settings) a big loud aggressive man is seen as a protector......a defender of the family or neighborhood. What can a loud burly woman do besides get herself and everyone around her killed for saying too much of the wrong things to the wrong people....lol. Or get laughed at and made fun of embarrassing her family. Women can't look or act like men and get treated the same, just like a man can't look or act like a woman and expect people to accept him the same. It goes against the very basics of human nature. 　 　 "Cuteness" knows no race or ethnicity. It is found in all women possessing a universal symmetry known as the golden triangle, wherein the facial features in a round face are arranged in a certain way that involve large, slighted-slanted wide-set eyes, curvaceous lips and a button nose This is true. Rather than "cuteness" I prefer to use the word "attractiveness" which is biological as opposed to "beautiful" which is mostly based on cultural standards. Nice smooth skin, soft features, nice teeth, and a slim but well curved body are features that make a woman ATTRACTIVE regardless of race or culture. Smooth skin, thick hair, and a slim muscular body is seen as attractive for men regardless of race or nationality. Where as in one culture long blond hair is considered "beautiful" and in other cultures tribal scars are considered beautiful and in yet another a very large butt is considered beautiful. But attractive features are universal and we just can't make it any other way. Troy For all we know Kerry can be truly ugly and Leslie can indeed be beautiful. But I guess that depends upon how one defines "beauty." If we define beauty solely by northern european standards physical standards (tall, slim, blonde, blue eyed) then @Pioneer1, I have news for you; very few Black people are "beautiful" by that definition But I'm not using European standards of beauty, I'm using UNIVERSAL MALE standards of beauty! Whether you go to Africa, Europe, South America, the Australian bush....all straight men look for certain traits in women that they deem as attractive that have nothing to do with race. Most men like women with delicate small features relative to their facial size, smooth skin, smaller bone structure, big eyes, light voices, and a mild and often times meek attitude. Leslie possesses few of these traits. If people think Leslie was called an ape or gorilla simply because she's a Black woman then look at women like Lauryn Hill, or Lupita Nyong'o.... These women are both dark skinned and have kinky hair and are among the most beautiful women in the world. .....have you heard any reports of THEM being called "ape" or "gorilla"??? Any reports of Kerry Washington being called a monkey or baboon? Naw. Let's keep it real, Leslie's treatment isn't because people can't appreciate her "beauty", it's just that she isn't what most men of ANY race consider attractive and her attitude makes it even worse.

　 Obama clearly doesn't have too much allegiance to the Black community. My example of him being a community organizer in one of America's largest Black communities was just to illustrate the fact that he KNOWS how to help the Black community. He knows the issues that we are concerned with whether he actually addresses them or not. .....as opposed to a Sanders who may not be as intimately familiar with the needs of Black America regardless of how sincere his intentions may be to help. -A politician who knows the needs of Black America and desires to help would increase the amount of well trained law enforcement in urban areas with a focus on violence and not minor offenses and drug violations. -A politician who wants to help Black people but don't have a clue will hear reports of police brutality and reduce the amount of police officer and piss them off with a lot of sensitivity training that will lead to an increase in crime. -A politician who knows the needs of Black America and desires to help would....like Roosevelt...actually use his powers to build jobs with decent wages and hire the unemployed directly for immediate financial relief. -A politician who just wants to help poor Black people but doesn't really know how will increase welfare programs that do little more than keep Black people in poverty and dependence. The only jobs created would be for young White college graduates who come to the ghetto to do social work and manage charities.

Troy said: because power comes from ownership, and Black women don't own Twitter 'nuff said. End of conversation.

I'm sure some people will not like what I'm about to say but....... Leslie isn't catching hell because she's a Black woman. Her problem is she's not a very attractive woman anyway, and her masculine loud and obnoxious behavior just adds to the animosity that many people have toward her. But because she's a Black woman she's using racism to explain away why so many men criticize her. Yes there's been a few ape and gorilla remarks and perhaps it is racial, but plenty of unattractive White women are compared to pigs and other animals by the cruel and immature. But they can't say it's because society does not appreciate the "beauty of White women"....they have to just deal with it. Unattractive women tend to just catch it regardless of their color. It's not necessarily a racial thing but a sexist and patriarchal thing where women are still judged more by their looks than anything else. I think she's too "manish" or masculine personally, and it seems this type of Black woman is being promoted in some circles as if that's supposed to be a good thing. Too many of our girls aren't being taught how to be "ladies". They're just being allowed to grow up with no culture or role to attain. Perhaps that's a good thing, but if you're trying to attract men who by nature seek a feminine balance in their women...it's counter-productive. Masculinity is good for MEN, I don't think it's very good for women unless you're trying to attract another woman. Now I've seen pictures of Leslie made-up and in revealing clothes smiling, and she can be quite appealing when she wants to. But as Cynique points out her overbearing obnoxious attitude really puts her over the top. Cynique brought up a good point about Kerry Washington as she was one of the first women who came to my mind as an example of a beautiful well behaved Black "lady" as opposed to a loud mouthed trampish woman. And there are plenty of other beautiful Black women of all shades who know how to act. Leslie in no way represents Black beauty. I touched on this subject a little while back when we were talking about young Black girls who think they're ugly. We need to stop telling Black women and Black girls that they are beautiful REGARDLESS as to how they look or act....because it will definately cause more harm than good. You don't tell a bunch of 400 pound 8th grade girls with acne how "beautiful" they are and if the world doesn't see it then that's "their problem". You're setting them up for failure and confusion in life. Am I saying you call them ugly and degrade them? Hell no. But we as Black people need to have our own standards of beauty and maintain them and TEACH our young men and women HOW to attain beauty by eating right, exercising, avoiding self destructive habits, and most of all CARRYING themselves in a proper manner. I'd love for Black women in Hollywood to step up on this one and let the world know that no matter how cruel they may have been to Leslie, she in no way represents "Black female beauty" so don't even go there.

A lot of people confuse "community organizer" with "community activist". Community activists are generally the people you see on the street protesting, feeding the homeless, and generally being vocal about the issues. On the other hand a community organizer does just that..... They are typically professionals (professors, lawyers, ect.....) or recent college graduates who use their intellectual and professional skills to help organize the community around a common cause. They generally work behind the scene and are often the liason between the activists on the front lines and the establishment who have the power to change the policies ill-affecting the community. With his nuanced and relatively suppressed personality, Obama never took me as an "activist" but I definately could see him an an organizer.

Cynique One person's bad cop is another one's law enforcement officer. I agree. A cop can be morally "bad" but if the laws he's enforcing are bad in and of themselves then he'd actually be considered a good cop doing his job. For example....... If the state closes the public mental hospitals and dump thousands of mentally ill people on the street and then turn around and give police officers the right to use deadly force against anyone acting erratic or that they perceive as a threat....they could literally kill hundreds of people in the street and have it justified by law. The term "police" comes from the word "policy"...because they are the authority who enforce the POLICIES of the state. If the state is producing bad laws/policies then the police who enforce them will be found doing that which is morally wrong but that which they are legally obligated to do. Troy The thing I've noticed about White men....and I've noticed this since I was a teenager....is that most of them LOVE authority. They love telling people what to do and making them do it. Whether it's law enforcement, or just being a manager or supervisor on a job. It's a power trip for so many. Even if the job does't pay much or you don't get a financial raise upon becoming manager I've seen White people accept the stress of management and supervisory positions that pay next to minimum wage.....just for the satisfaction of bossing people around and having the power to fire them or send them home. Just look at a lot of middle aged to older White men who could be truck drivers or construction constractors..... Look at how they wear their cell phones....on their hip like it's a weapon. For most I don't think it's even about the money so much as the power to tell other people what to do and MAKE them do it. The image and sense of power and authority is almost intoxicating to a lot of White males and it carries over to the police force.

Christianity...atleast as it was introduced to the Black race by Europeans...has been among the most morally destructive weapons used. Europeans USED Christianity to conquere and subjegate Black people by forcing a religion on them that goes almost completely against common sense and their very nature. Besides forcing monogomous marriage on Black people which goes against the polygamous nature of most Black men.....the doctrine basically permits people to do whatever the hell they want to do as long as they "believe in Jesus". This allows for a morally degenerate society who maintain false beliefs of salvation. So we shouldn't be suprised if we find adulterers, murderers, cheats, and every other moral or social degenerate in the church....because the "god" they worship tells them to "come as they are" and not worry about anyone judging them. Once a community or society is morally degenerated, there's too much chaos and self-destruction for elevated thought and progress. People are too busy fighting and are too distrustful of eachother to build anything of substance.

Cynique Oprah is short when she's standing next to Gayle King! At any rate, we're not just looking at these figures through the eyes of AfroAmericans ONLY but also the eyes of the White majority and how THEY perceive Obama or Oprah. To most White Americans Oprah is a dark skinned woman. Now if you want to compare her to Michael Jordan or Flava Flav, well....I recon she's not that dark. I'm a little curious, what do you mean by Obama's "regular" features...??? As for Obama's choice in a wife, considering his ambitions, I don't think he would've chosen a plump, high-school educated dark skinned woman to fall in love with. He reserved his affections for someone who suited his purposes. Someone who "suits his purposes"??????? You talk as if the man was a controlled experiment since birth and conspired to get the perfect wife for his generated image as if she's just one piece in his chess game.....lol. Michelle is smart and very ambitious, but she doesn't exactly fit the bill of a "trophy wife" or the type of woman that a man would marry just for the image. Actually she seems more like the active "Hillary Clinton" type who has her own agenda and sees herself more as a PARTNER, than a supporter of another man and his ambitions. Ofcourse he probably wouldn't have chosen a woman with a mere highschool education because for one thing she wouldn't be in his circle for them to meet. President Obama doesn't take me as the type that went around hitting on random women in the street and sweating the cashiers at KFC and Walmart for "them digits"...lol. Nor would a woman of low education feel comfortable around him anyway...her self esteem would alway be threatened by the intellectual and academic aura of him and his collegues. Most professionals meet their spouses WITH IN their profession. Why? Because most professionals are so focused on what they're doing they don't have time to look OUTSIDE for potential mates and the only way they do find one....if they ever find one...is if they happen to meet another professional they are immediately attracted to. I'm sure they met at some work or academic related function as most professional marriages go as only another lawyer could have satisfied him intellectually and emotionally. Besides, unless they have a lot of money to offer or wealth connections......who is gifted enough in discerning human personalities to know how valuable a potential spouse will be to one's future political ambitions?

I don't think Obama looks like the typical "mulatto" most American's are used to seeing. His skin isn't that light and his hair definately isn't the texture of most mixed people. Look at that kinky hair. Looks like Michael Jackson when he was still with the Jackson 5. He looks more "Black" that mixed to me. There is nothing about his phenotype that I see would cause White society in general to treat him any different than any other young AfroAmerican man. Unless Trump was right about him being born and raised in a village in Kenya, he undoubtably experienced America as a Black male growing up and intimately knows the stresses and problems Black people face in this society. As far as his accomplishments....... I don't think his looks play as big of a role as you suggest. I believe his brain and articulation were the biggest factors for his elevating increasingly through this nation's best academic institutions as well as his successful political career. American politics and acadamia are largely controled by Anglo-Saxon "old establishment" White people who are well known for seeing ALL people of color as the same (meaning "not White") regardless as to how light or dark they may be. Perhaps his lighter skinned may have been impressive to a darker skinned MICHELLE....lol....but not to those White folks running the country. They just want to know is he smart enough to help them carry on their traditions and keep the money flowing in. Remember...... A short fat dark skinned woman named Oprah (who is also brilliant) had more clout and prestige in America than even HIM and he had to go to HER for help launch his national image.

Troy There are a lot of smart people..... And there are a lot of righteous people.... But there aren't too many who share BOTH virtues....lol. I actually agree with you that the police in most big cities aren't compensated enough for doing what they do on a daily basis. This lack of adequate compensation leads to stress, divorce, and corrupt policing practices like shaking down pimps and dope dealers for extra cash or being paid off. While a job paying 40 or 50 thousand a year with full benefits may be considered a "good job" to most Black people, being a police officer are still considered a lower class occupation by White American standards. They largely seen as uneducated and barely into the "middle class". So a lot of White cops are angry about their socio-economic condition and the stress it causes them socially and financially among thier peers. But there are quite a few who are not only NOT stressed out by their work but actually get an adrenaline rush out of it. These are the "cowboy" types who think their gun and badge puts them above the law and gives them the power to be judge, jury, and exocutioner on the street. At the end of the day, police officers know the stresses of the job BEFORE the sign on and take their oath. If at anytime they feel the pressures of the job are too much for them or they disagree with the policies they are charged with enforcing, then they should do the honorable thing and resign instead taking out their frustrations on the public.

Troy Lol @ "hummm..." To some of your points....... Being raised by White parents may affect a person's personal values and cultural norms but doesn't affect their actual phenotype (except for not being able to properly do Black girls' hair...lol). As long as Obama looked like an AfroAmerican he would have had atleast shared some of the same racist experiences in this society that other AfroAmericans shared despite his family background...which means he would indeed be able to relate on SOME level regardless as to how minimal. Whether or not a man marries a Black woman or even chooses to marry PERIOD doesn't necessarily have any bearing on his character as far as I'm concerned. But the fact that a mixed man who was raised by a White family in a White society and CHOSE to pursue and marry an obviouly Black (rather than very light or almost White) woman from a strong Black community and then decides to live in it tells me that he's not running from his Blackness nor is he afraid to express his love for it. 　 I'm not an Obama defender, his policies have done next to nothing for the AfroAmerican community. But again, my issue with Bernie isn't his intent but his ABILITY to help us. It's hard to put in words exactly why I don't have much confidence in Bernie Sanders. It's more intuitive than intellectual. Vermont is one of the Whitest if not THE Whitest states in the Union, how can a man representing that state possibly be able to effectively govern the affairs of such a diverse nation both racially and culturally? Plus he considers himself a Democratic Socialist which probably means he wouldn't stress Black business ownership too much b Many socialists have a nasty habit of "diverting" the focus on racism and making it about economics or classs assuming that White supremacy will just "fade away" once more socialist policies are in place. Perhaps if Mr Sanders were mayor of a major city first or governor of a state with a large diverse population where I could see his policies in action I'd have more confidence in him. Cynique Come on, you really think Barack chose to marry Michelle as some sort of political move....lol. With all the other beautiful and well educated Black women I'm sure he came across in college and at his various university positions I'm sure he had his pick of others. It seems to me the ONLY reason he chose her was out of love and actually wanting her.

Like Cynique said....yes. And as long as AfroAmericans continue to occupy the role as "children" in this society refusing to take control of their own destiny and design a future for themselves they will continue to find themselves asking this and other similar questions over and over again. If you don't want to be victimized by White racism then do something about it. Send your sons and daughters to the police force so that they can be apart of law enforcements to ensure that cops aren't misusing or abusing their power. In many respects AfroAmericans are like little children living in someone else's house who refuse to take responsiblity for their own communities but would rather sit around waiting for White people in power to "treat them right".

With this being an election year I was thinking the same thing about Trump. This incident will probably benefit him because it will stoke the fears of an already on-edge White conservative demographic. As far as the shooting...... They say only one man was involved but when it first broke out I saw reports where SEVERAL people were being held in custody. I know they say the guy was ex-military but wouldn't it be pretty hard for one lone man to gun down 11 trained officers. As with most muliple shootings that are covered in the media, the "facts" keep changing over and over again. Like I said numerous times. The solution to this problem of police brutality and racism is to have MORE well trained Black police officers who know our people and can deal with them justly instead of overreacting, which ultimately leads to situations like this

Like you said, a massive cultural shock and economic depression is the type of instability that spawns new values, family structures, and social paradigms....and that's exactly what this society has been getting for the past 10 to 15 years! Since the 60s, people have been shacking up in groups and living together for economic necessity and they weren't giving a damn about religious or family beliefs...they are just looking to survive because doing what society told them was the "right thing" didn't work for them. It's easy for a woman to stay home and rear the children if you have a rich husband who can take care of all of the families necessities. But most families today have to rely on ALL adults in the home working and bringing in money to maintain it or face certain homelessness. As far as group families..... They tried this in the late 60s and early 70s with the hippies living in groups and trying to start group families, but it didn't work because the economic situation for most hippies weren't dire enough. Most hippies were rich kids who rebelled for a minute and then went running back home. Today the young people and street families you see living on the streets and begging aren't playing...they're poor FOR REAL and have no where else to go running to. So they're making it happen already. The next step is to change the thinking of society to recognize that there is more than one way to form a "family" so that the stigma of adults living, having sex, and pooling their money in groups isn't "bad"....it's actually efficient and makes more economic sense.

No I wouldn't, for a number of reasons..... First the issue with Obama isn't sensitivity or recognizing which issues would be dear to the hearts and concerns of Black America. -He's half Black himself and no doubt has experienced what most other Black males have in this society. -He chose to marry a Black woman which says a lot about his character. -He spent time living in and successfully organizing in one of the largest Black communities in the United States. So it's not his sensitivities to or abilities to address Black issues that I would critique Obama on...but his INTENTION. He KNOWS what the problems are as well as some of the the solutions, but just won't bother to impliment them. However with Mr Sanders..... Bernie comes from one of the Whitest states in the union and probably has had very limited interactions with Black people outside of the political arena. I'm guessing the only time he's come into contact with poor or working class AfroAmericans is while working in Washington D.C. No matter how well meaning he may intend to be, it's difficult imagining that he would be sensititive enough to certain issues

The problem with most Hollywood liberals or "Left coast liberals" is THEIR definition of "liberal" doesn't jive with the traditional definition. Liberal means "open minded" and tolerant. When I was a kid, "liberal" used to mean you supported the rights of Black people and women. But now it seems to have morphed into some weird camouflouge quilt of veganism, environmentalism, and long distance running. Most Hollywood so-called liberal and most wealthy White "liberals" in general are just as intolerant and close minded as their consertive Republican counterparts. Having lived on the West Coast many of the White so-called "liberals" there are..... -Intolerant of anyone who doesn't recycle the way THEY think people should recycle....taking precious time to separate your garbage into 4 or 5 differnt categories to place in the appropirate bin. -Intolerant of those who go to resturaunts and not tipping the waitor or waitress ATLEAST the customary 15%....despite the fact that you may be poor or working class and unlike them don't have money to give away. -Intolerant of people who eat a lot of red meat. -Many are intolerant of those who profess a religious faith. Another problem is because most of them tend to live in rich secluded enclaves in California or New England and only run with the same circle of White liberal friends.....they are out of touch with the rest of America and especially poorer Blacks and Latinos; the very people whom many claim to empathize with. This was one of my issues with Bernie Sanders. People called him a liberal and I liked some of his ideas, but when you come from a place where there isn't many Black people I have to wonder how would certain issues that are dear to AfroAmericans be prioritized in your agenda. I've often found that in SOME respects I've had more in common with and easier conversations with poor rednecks than I've had with wealthy so-called liberals who often tended to be smug in their attitude and intolerant of any political idea that they didn't read off the Huffington post.

Sara You wont a piece of me? Yes. ....but I thought you had a spouse already....lol.

　 Cynique My point is that I make a distinction between preventing an unwanted pregnancy from occurring and dealing with an unwanted pregnancy that has already occurred. ....and wealthy White young people are better than poor Black people at BOTH. They tend to be educated enough to know what type of contraceptives and sexual techniques work to prevent unwanted pregnancies AND they tend to have the recources and connections to deal with unwanted pregnancies should they occur. Different dynamics are involved here and I don't lump them together. I also disagree with your idea that encouraging single young black women to breed in order to increase the black population is part of the solution instead of part of the problem. I am more concerned with the quality of life rather than the quantity of it. I agree with you. It's better to have a small but strong, educated, well balanced populous than a massive one filled with criminals and imbeciles. Jews are an excellent example of this as they tend to dominate the financial industry in the nations they reside despite their small numbers. I was just pointing it out to you as it was pointed out to me that perhaps if anything good could come out of so many Black children being born and raised out of wedlock....atleast it maintains our numbers. 　 Del It was and still is easier being a Dad than the husband role. Based on what most parents tell me, one of the good things is that you usually see steady progress as you watch your children grow from one stage to the next. In a world where many things tend to decline over time, under normal circumstances having children gives you the opportunity to watch what you produce continue to progress. Troy Pioneer you come across as somewhat religious calling children born out of wedlock "illegitimate." How long in the annals of history have we been calling children born outside the Christian construct of marriage; disparaging terms like this? Notice I said SO-CALLED "illegitimate children" and put the term in quotation marks as a sign that I don't accept that term. I don't think any child is illegitimate because I believe all human beings were born for a reason. But that WAS an in many circles still IS the term for children born outside of wedlock.....that and "bastard". Isn't it enough for kids to be cared for and guided by a loving adult? Can children only be raised by a man and woman, who were virgins when married, and committed to never having sex with anyone else for life? Why is this so detrimental? I don't think children necessarily have to be raised by state-licensed MARRIED parents. However from what I've observed over the years looking at so many children who grew up in single family homes, it's best to have BOTH the male and female influence and energy in a child's life. They need BOTH to be well balanced. They need both a dominant DISCIPLINARY and a gentle NURTURER. Doesn't matter which role which parents takes, even if the mother wants to be the dominant one and the father be the passive gentle one...as long as they get both. And it's even better when both are that child's biological parents instead of just a boyfriend/girlfriend of the other parent. Most men I know who grew up without their fathers active in their lives had an angry streak in them and grew up feeling insecure and angry about something being missing in their lives while not quite being able to put their finger on it. Girls who grow up without father figures or that male energy in their lives usually regret it and end up unbalanced. Even if they become materially successful with a nice job and nice home, having such an unbalanced childhood almost guarantees a life long feeling of insecurity regardless of how much they accomplish and that's why so many turn to drugs and alcohol. I agree with Welsing, I think we all should wait until we are 30 before having our first child. I was 30, and probably should have waited a bit longer. Many of the people having children younger than 30 are still children themselves; dependent upon their parents, unskilled, uneducated, and unmotivated. Sure many of these people pull it together later, but they would have fared much better without a child, and the child would have too. I think it's ideal but I don't now how healthy it is for so many women over 30 to have children, also I don't know if it's a good idea for older men to make babies because of the increased risk of defective sperm. Worst of all...... Having children when you're TOO old means your teenage son may start kicking your old ass before lhe earns that it's wrong and develops proper respect for you.......lol. But as I've said time and time again even on this very site, I believe their will be a NEW family structure coming in the very near future that will be superior to the current nuclear family consisting of 2 parents. That new structure would involve GROUPS of men and women....4...5...8...10???...all living together and raising their children together sort of like a mini-village and this will be the ideal family structure for most people as it's the most convenient and the guarantees the most stability.

　 Cynique I made that comparison not simply between Blacks and Whites with race being the only factor, but between UPPERCLASS Whites vrs POOR/WORKING CLASS Blacks as these 2 groups dominate in the United States and are in such close proximity to eachother that it makes for an easy comparison. You help make my point, because my point is wealthy White kids take better precautions to PREVENT unwanted pregancies and STDs and those who DO end up pregnant or contracting STDs have the money and other resources to take the necessary corrective measures. I would say that society has become more liberal as far as accepting so-called "illegitimate children" as normal....especially in the Black community. Although given how detrimental it usually is to both the mother and the children, I have to wonder is this acceptance by the larger society a result of a more "liberal" attitude...... Or more an attitude of INDIFFERENCE, ...simply not carrying what Black families do or how healthy they are. If you notice, in that same 25 year time period, while it became more socially acceptable to have out-of-wedlock births...society became more CONSERVATIVE when it comes to sexuality itself. Mostly because of the AIDS crisis. I was surprised at the the sexual openness of places like Canada and Europe as compared to the United States. I used to complain about the high rate of out-of-wedlock births in the Black community until it was pointed out to me that if it weren't for Black women just having babies ANYWAY whether they were married and finacially prepared or not....the Black population would have steeply declined a long time ago! Many highly educated responsible young Black women aren't getting married and having children at all because they can't find enough men suitable for their socio-economic status. While many others of a high socio-economic status are either marrying non-Black men to match their socio-economic needs in a mate or openly engaging in lesbian relationships....neither of which actually produces Black children. It's the poor and uneducated sisters that are saving Black America by having enough babies to maintain our population levels! Troy 　 So can I conclude, based upon what you wrote that you do not consider Christianity to be a "Good" religion? I think it's good for SOME people, but not for MOST. I'm not the type of person to slander all religion as man-made tools of division like many do, I recognize that some people have been rescued from drugs, poverty, and other social ills through the power of the church. But Christianity in doctrine is far too complex and confusing to be followed "properly" and this confusion often leads to moral crisis in many individuals who attemp to. 　 Pioneer I don't think you can call for the implementation of rites of passage and freedom at the same time. Rites of passages require that you buy into a hold system of rules or behavioral norms that are adopted and enforce before you can be called a adult. What happens when you disagree with the rules? You see what I mean? If you want a well behaved society where people don;t make babies they can;t take care of you have to give up on the fantasy of complete freedom. I don't believe in COMPLETE freedom anyway. There is no such thing as society AND freedom as the two aren't congruent. In a society you have rules and regulations regardless as to how lax, while freedom means free from rules and restrictions. I believe in a society with as few legal rules as necessary to keep the peace while offering it's residents SOCIAL freedom to do whatever they like. However they would be given the EDUCATION to make the right decisions FOR THEM if they so choose. For example...... We have a society where people are not required to get married before having sex.. They can have sex with or without protection.... They can have sex with any consenting adult they want.... They can even have children outside of the boundaries of matrimony if they wish.... BUT as youth, they will be thoroughly educated on proper sexual protection and what the consequences are for for not practicing safe sex. As they're old enough to understand it they will be shown the benefits of having children in a stable family structure that is financially acceptable. This would be better than a the cookie-cutter rites of passage rituals that governed early societies for centuries if not millinia because it gives people who are not considered part of the "norm" (asexuals, homosexuals, loners, late bloomers, wierdos, ect....) the option to be who THEY are and not suffer from being forced to conform to a lifestyle not suitable for them. Atleast I'm not as strict as Dr Frances Cress Welsing who suggested that Black women waited until they were financially set and OVER 30 before even having their first child!! BTW..... Maury Povich featured and clowned on Black guests more than he did White ones...lol. He got famous giving paternity tests on his shows making Black men look like deadbeats who took pleasure in avoiding their responsibilities as fathers. Him and Jerry Springer made a living clowing and trying to disgrace Black people before the entire world (before World Star Hiphop took over the role) and only featured a sprinkling of White guests to point to just incase someone legitimately accused them of racism.

Sara No matter how nonsensical those semantics are, e.g., 16 year old gangbangers back in the day were counseled, guided, nurtured by their elder 17 year old gangbangers. **sigh** Hey Sara, come 'ere...........

I accept homosexuality as a part of human sexuality however...... Why is it that now-a-days almost eveytime the sexuality of Black men is referenced in public it is rarely complimentary? It rarely praises our sexual power, our virility, or our skills in the bedroom. For those of us old enough to remember, that USED TO be a stereotype of Black men that so many in our community....for some reason....worked hard as hell to dismantle. Rather now, too often the themes revolve around some backhanded attempt to "question" the Black man's sexuality. To "question" his manhood in this society. Too often the literature today discussing Black man sexuality isn't to promote traditional Black masculinity but rather sneaky attempts to create an image of Black men that makes the public look at every Black man they meet sideways and wonder whether or not he's gay and on the down low and "queer" instead of assuming he's heterosexual as they do the Asian or Latino male.

I just saw this on the news. It's interesting to see tso many Asians and Latinos were involved. Just like Mexican and White mobs were fighting eachother weeks ago at another Trump rally. It appears that THIS generation of Latinos and Asians are just now waking up to the racism and oppression that Black people have been complaining about for centuries. When the Nazis and Klan were just targetting Black people and telling them "go back to Africa"....they didn't care. But when Trump and other right wingers start seriously talking about sending Muslims and Latinos back, or building walls and keeping them from coming here NOW they feel it's time to take action....lol.

Troy I've been told many times that I'd make an excellent father in part because of my rather naturally disciplined demeanor; the problem is being a good husband...lol. I was born and raised a typical Black Christian like both of my parents and I studied the bible hard as a kid to the point that some people thought I was going to be a preacher when I grew up. I knew sex outside of marriage.....fornication...was a sin. But then puberty hit and the urge was so strong that like a lot of people I ignored the rules and did what the other boys in my environment was doing and tried to get myself as much coochie as I could hustle up on...lol. As I've gotten older and less religious I've realized that some things are just nature and you can't legislate against it or use religious dogma in an attempt to supress it. Even in the Middle East where men and women are pretty much segregated and the sex laws are strictly enforced you still have people sneaking around and occasionally they get caught. We have a society in America where young men and women are PHYSICALLY FREE to eat, sleep, work, and play with and around eachother...it would be pretty silly to expect none of them to have sex with eachother until they marry. Sex is as natural as eating and making laws that forbid people against sexual activity and expecting them to abide by it would be like forbidden people to eat and expecting them to "be good" and just sit on the couch and starve to death....lol. Rather than restricting people from natural urges, I believe a good religion would EDUCATE people on how to properly have sex while avoiding unwanted pregnancies, diseases, and hurt feelings, rapes, ect.... Do you think there should be a law against people bring children into the world if they are not financially independent themselves? Interesting you should ask that.... Me and my brother had our father in our lives and the advice he gave me as a Black male on how to survive in this society ALONE was priceless...let alone all of the other things he did for me; so after witnessing what many of my friends and family who DIDN'T have fathers went through and how their families were so broken, so undisciplined, constant fights with the mothers' boyfriends, ect....for a long time I was absolutely adamant that there should be a strictly enforced law that no one should be allowed to have children unless they were MARRIED and FINANCIALLY SET ! Not only did I believe this but I would argue with people over it. But the older I got the more I realized that life happens and things happen that aren't predicted that can take you from an ideal environment to one of strife and turmoil. Especially if you are a Black person in this nation. You could have a good job with a fat pay check one minute and all you need is for the wrong guy to take over the company and he starts slashing the payroll just to boast a bigger bottom line and without so much as a month's notice you'll find yourself wondering how much money you can sell your cars for and whether or not you qualify for some unemployment insurance. I now believe in FREEDOM and allowing people the freedom to make mistakes even if that mistake involves bringing unwanted life into the world. I wouldn't make a law against people who aren't prepared having children because to enforce such a law means sterilizing people and forcing abortions on them and we KNOW where that will lead. But along with that freedom I believe in EDUCATING people on proper birth control as well as how to be good parents if they so choose so that they won't continue the same mistakes their parents and grandparents may have made with them. The key is EDUCATION. For years I wondered why rich White kids could get drunk, have wild orgies, and have MORE sex that poor Black kids yet they rarely came up pregnant and you rarely heard about them getting serious sexual disease. They had their fun and grew up without having tons of children out of wedlock and broken families. I found out they were better EDUCATED and had the money and knowledge to have their fun safely and take the proper precautions to prevent unwanted pregnancies and births. As you know quite well, PARENTHOOD isn't taught in this society. If you don't learn it from your own parents you basically learn as you go along...which is a damn shame. People joke around that parenting doesn't come with a manual, but why not? In African cultures through the rites of passage the boys and girls were TAUGHT their roles and what would be expected of them as young men and women...as mothers and fathers. We don't have that in America. Here you're free to grow up and be whatever but lost as hell which means the children often come up lost and in worse shape than their parents because instead of compounded knowledge passed along from parent to child you get compounded IGNORANCE passed along from one generation to the next.

Cynique You know i was actually thinking the VERY same thing when I heard about this. Where is the outcry to arrest the parents of the White kid who was snatched? I didn't realize they actually KILLED all those gators they found. When I heard that they came across 8 or 9 aligators but none of them had the boy I kind of wondered how would they have known that UNLESS they killed them and opened them up....but i didn't really think about it afterward.

Sara Stop sighing and listen to me....... You're confusing the word "elder" with "elderly" but they have 2 different meanings. Elder simply means older. E.g.... "Having an elder sister is a blessing in disguise, especially if you have a sister like Anna; remember "You can't marry a man you just met!" 　 　 http://www.polkacafe.com/elder-sister-1507.html "I was only a year and some odd months younger than Woloda, and from the first we had grown up and studied and played together. Hitherto, the difference between elder and younger brother had never been felt between us, but at the period of which I am speaking" -Leo Tolstoy Chapter V. My Elder Brother http://www.online-literature.com/tolstoy/boyhood/5/